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Draft Dominator = Cheating? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter RageRhino
- Start date
dapunisher
Footballguy
Maybe you should propose that everyone draft from memory alone. I mean printed draft lists are called "cheatsheets" after all. See how he likes that.
jbalicki10
Footballguy
I didnt use DD last year but used a similar program. This year everyone is asking for my program.... Kinda sucks... I have been telling them to go out and buy their own. Hopefully they are not using DD like I am this year...
dapunisher
Footballguy
I second that.I believe the appropriate response is:
Wu-banger
Footballguy
doesn't every magazine printed have someone elses rankings..??I had a similar situation a few years ago when the DD first came out...a few un-educated and techincally un-savy owners claimed I was cheating becuase I was on the internet while drafting (I wasnt, we were outside at a persons house who did not even have the internet)..they cleaimed I could get the latetest news and they couldnt..??
Since I am the commish my solution was that either you can bring anything you want to help you draft..computer, magazine, radio, newspaper, John Clayton etc.....OR we would have nothing at all but a pen and blank paper and we would draft out of our heads and own knowledge....The league quickly agree with me that you can bring whatever you want.
Now in another league that I dont commish but has owners in my league in it they ask me to bring the laptop becuase it is such a great draft managment tool..
PS- I never let out what application I am using... the FBG ad department understands I am sure...!!!
BlueOnion
Footballguy
Let me be clear, I don't have a problem with it. But there is a difference between a public\generic cheatsheet (ESPN, Yahoo, Street Smith's magazine) and somebody's personal list, say David Dodds.Do you think the two items below are exactly the same:
Player 1 - "I bought Fantasy Football Index and I am going to use their cheatsheet verbatim to draft my team."
Player 2 - "I got custom made cheatsheets from David Dodds and these costum made cheetsheets having implicit instructions on who I should pick each time."
You would probably make fun of both players (just because were fantasy football players and making fun of others is in our nature), but we would probably be more mocking of Player 1 and a little bit more cynical to Player 2, "So your team is more indicative of David Dodds fantasy football projections than your own?"
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
I did a WCOFF satellite draft and this guy just start crying about how everyone's a sheep and using the DD. and how he thinks on his own, etc.,etc.
They guy was a real jerk, kinda surprising cause he does a ton of drafts over at xpertsports.
I accused him of being Donnyt33.
They guy was a real jerk, kinda surprising cause he does a ton of drafts over at xpertsports.
I accused him of being Donnyt33.
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It's clearly not cheating unless there is something in the league rules about it. However, I could see how, in some leagues, it might violate the the spirit of the league. Suppose you've been playing a weekly game of pickup basketball with the same guys for several years. Say it's six guys and you play three-on-three every week with the same teams. Now one of your teammates moves away and you replace him with a 6'8" former DI hooper from your office that no one in the group is friends with.
There is nothing wrong with that, but I can see how some people might react like, "hey, man, we had a fun casual game here, and you just changed the whole dynamic of it."
One thing I learned a long time ago (the hard way) is that different people can view the same league in very different ways. And most people assume that everyone else views it the same way they do. The "cultural norms" vary TREMENDOUSLY from league to league. While clearly not cheating, I can see how certain leagues --- either extremely casual or extremely hardcore --- might view the DD as a violation of the cultural norms of the league.
Either that, or (probably more likely) the guy is just a whiner.
Wu-banger
Footballguy
there is no difference whether you use Dodds projections or some other guy from a magazine. We are priviledge here to have Dodds and not the other hacks...I personally tweak the projections to fit more with my thinking as many of us who use the DD do. The DD is a tool with almost unlimted customization capability that imporves every year.... if the user does not take advantage of that then that is their fault...how can you customize a magazine rankings ?? With Glue and scissors ??
BlueOnion
Footballguy
This post better articulates what I was trying to say. I don't think it is cheating, but I have experience in leagues where some individuals could view this as cheating.I had a friend who played with some casual friends and other owners in the league considered me showing up at the draft to help my friend as 'cheating'.
Flying Spaghetti Monster
Footballguy
We banned laptops at our draft in my big money league. A few years ago is got kind of ridicules because everyone except maybe one or two used a laptop with some kind of DD program. It was then after that year we had some emails back and forth about this issue. What we found out was that since we all used close to the same rankings the winner of the league was not being determined by skill but by a computer program.
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
Winner is not totally determined in standard h2h at the draft. Injuries, starting decisions, waiver wire, etc.
ruling IMO
GregR_2
Footballguy
You have a point Doug, about how people may perceive things, and that means realistically it is what we may have to deal with. But at the same time I think people in such leagues also need to be realistic. If they want to run a newbie/casual level league then they need to stick to newbie/casual owners. Take this case, where the accuser was said to himself be showing up with outside tools to draft from. That indicates to me that his problem isn't that using outside materials is cheating, but that someone cared enough to use better materials than he cared to go get.
Wilbur Wood
Footballguy
While I have never complained about it, philosophically I favor no laptops or computer programs at drafts.
Bring your "static" rankings, lists, cheatsheets with you. Auctions or snake drafts are "dynamic" events. Part of the "skill" inherent in Fantasy Sports is the ability of owners to take static inputs and adjust to fluid real world events like a draft. Its one thing the leagus is a bunch of internet acquainteances who are doing an "extended time" draft over several days. No way to police it, so go use the DD or whatever tools you have. But when folks spend the time to get together in person for a Live Draft, IMO, part of the skill is how each owner can adjust when there is an unexpected (per their cheatsheet) run on WRs or in auction when the 8 of the Top 10 RBs have just gone for 35% more $$ than what their cheatsheet indicated.
A computer may simply have an individuals own private rankings and using a real time VBD program OR it maybe the guy has some type of UTLT PREMIUM subscription in which has real time access to David Dobbs in a chat room effectively making his picks for him at every juncture.
I'd personally favor banning the computers from the drafts and I do think that the use of them "diminishes" in some non insignificant way the accomplishments of owners that use them.
Bring your "static" rankings, lists, cheatsheets with you. Auctions or snake drafts are "dynamic" events. Part of the "skill" inherent in Fantasy Sports is the ability of owners to take static inputs and adjust to fluid real world events like a draft. Its one thing the leagus is a bunch of internet acquainteances who are doing an "extended time" draft over several days. No way to police it, so go use the DD or whatever tools you have. But when folks spend the time to get together in person for a Live Draft, IMO, part of the skill is how each owner can adjust when there is an unexpected (per their cheatsheet) run on WRs or in auction when the 8 of the Top 10 RBs have just gone for 35% more $$ than what their cheatsheet indicated.
A computer may simply have an individuals own private rankings and using a real time VBD program OR it maybe the guy has some type of UTLT PREMIUM subscription in which has real time access to David Dobbs in a chat room effectively making his picks for him at every juncture.
I'd personally favor banning the computers from the drafts and I do think that the use of them "diminishes" in some non insignificant way the accomplishments of owners that use them.
Oh, I agree. If I was committed to my league staying extremely casual, and someone whipped out a laptop, I wouldn't whine. I'd simply say, "well, looks like it's time for me to find a new league..." Or, maybe, "I think it may be time we rounded up a few new owners and split this league into two leagues: one for the hardcore dudes and one for the slackers."
Jeff Pasquino
Footballguy
A good coach will beat your team with his team.
A great coach will then switch teams and still beat you.
The DD is a tool in your case of how to draft. It should not be the definitive answer as to how to get a dominant team.
A great coach will then switch teams and still beat you.
The DD is a tool in your case of how to draft. It should not be the definitive answer as to how to get a dominant team.
GregR_2
Footballguy
It could. It's actually an interesting topic to me.Let's say all the draft programs used take into account DVBD (e.g. drop in value at a position between picks). The cheatsheets they have won't necessarily have that since it doesn't know what position they ended up with at each pick.
Now a skilled owner is going to do the DVBD type calculation with or without a computer, either explicitly or in his head approximately. When everyone has a draft program to do it for them, it brings them all to that skill level of including a DVBD analysis in their decision. Without the program, some people may be savvy enough to do it, while others suddenly won't.
In essence, people who aren't savvy enough to do it on their own were borrowing the skill of the person who wrote the program. Now everyone still can get the skill in the program that goes into the cheat sheet, but as (hopefully) everyone here knows, you shouldn't really be making draft decisions strictly from a cheatsheet.
On a slightly different angle, there's the issue of everyone having pretty much the same rankings. I don't see a problem with that so much. I seldom do full projections anymore myself. Why? After doing them for the whole NFL, I compared them to Dodds as a reality check. The only way I could tell which were mine was by a few isolated players where I strongly differed from him. 90% of the players were so close in ranking and even FP to be difficult to distinguish which were mine and which were his.
What I took away from that experience is that we're most all working with the same information, and often that will lead to a similar expected result. There will be some players who differ, guys like an Aaron Brooks where he has a wide range in which his result could fall, but largely, if everyone is of middling competence they should have similar rankings.
BlueOnion
Footballguy
Another item as they pertaining to banning laptops (more pointedly real-time updates). Many times when we are drafting in late August or early September there are preseason games going on. Injuries or a 3rd string back solidify a move up to 2nd string could be pivotal late in a draft.
It just takes one guy to draft Sammy Morris of Miami in the 17th round and the next guy picking to say, "Haha you idiot, he just got hurt 2 minutes ago!"
It just takes one guy to draft Sammy Morris of Miami in the 17th round and the next guy picking to say, "Haha you idiot, he just got hurt 2 minutes ago!"
SwampDawg
Footballguy
I think you are on the right track but your example is a little off. Bringing in another player is like hiring someone else to draft for you. A better example to me would be you have a weekly golf foursome, all of you are 20 handicaps playing with 5 year old clubs. You take more of an interest in the game and go out and buy the newest clubs and take a few lessons. Now you are a 12 handicap, it isn't your fault you tried to improve yourself and used things available to every other member of your foursome.
M
MelvinTScupper
Guest
"laptop is a no-no" - 
Horrible.
Horrible.
Mooks77
Footballguy
This is silly. The only way you could really cheat in fantasy football is if you knew the outcome a year ahead of time. The DD can't predict the future.
It is so incredibly easy for people to find information on the internet that if they wanted to put the time and effort into doing well at the draft they could.
It is so incredibly easy for people to find information on the internet that if they wanted to put the time and effort into doing well at the draft they could.
N'wahlins Hope
Footballguy
My thought is..what does this guy complaining about when he sees someone starts using DD to draft after years of casual drafting. It's probably because he starts to lose. So all he has to do is become better prepared himself. Using the basketball analogy, what if for years the same 6 guys played basketball together casually. One day one of them decides to shoot hoops in the gymn for three hours per day and therefore gets much better at shooting, and ends of dominating the game. Would you call that cheating as well? To me practicing shooting hoops and using programs like DD are the same. Am I wrong?
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Really, I think as it has been pointed out - this issue is rather subjective.
I think it does point out the need for a good set of rules in any league. If the rest of the league thinks it is cheating, there is little hope that you are going to convince them otherwise - no matter how many supporting views you find on this board.
Just have a vote on it in your league. If it is decided not to use them, then so be it. It isn't as if you need DD to be successful in your draft. I would rather not deal with everyone calling me a cheater when I win.
That being said, I don't have a problem with laptops. Probably about half our league uses them (some for 4 or more years now) and we have not had any complaints thus far.
I think it does point out the need for a good set of rules in any league. If the rest of the league thinks it is cheating, there is little hope that you are going to convince them otherwise - no matter how many supporting views you find on this board.
Just have a vote on it in your league. If it is decided not to use them, then so be it. It isn't as if you need DD to be successful in your draft. I would rather not deal with everyone calling me a cheater when I win.
That being said, I don't have a problem with laptops. Probably about half our league uses them (some for 4 or more years now) and we have not had any complaints thus far.
M
MelvinTScupper
Guest
lean on it?I can tell you this much, hardly anyone using paper can say "Ok, the 4 guys who draft the turn after this pick already have 2 QBs, so I can wait to draft my backup, and take the best value other than that position here."
bjlmonster
Footballguy
How many of us actually follow our cheatsheets spot by spot. Very few I would imagine, we all will jump on a guy a few spots down because we want him. Your cheatsheet/DD/Etc is only a guide to go off of. Most don't follow it as it is the bible!
There is no "as well," since I never called the DD cheating. In fact, twice in the post you quoted, I clearly said that using the DD was not cheating.
N'wahlins Hope
Footballguy
Sorry, man. I wasn't clear with what I meant. When i said "you" I was referring to people who say it is cheating.
AcousticNut
Footballguy
I used this very one at lunch with some of my league-mates last week. I was a first-year player in a work league last year and asked the commish if I could bring a laptop to the draft, to which he replied "no problem".Well everyone took a great interest in why I had a laptop and all of sudden started razzing, "Ha, AcousticNut has a laptop picking his draft for him." My reply, "Yes, I'd rather have a piece of paper choose it for me.". These same people getting on me for using DD are the same people that print out the Top 200 cheatsheet from Fox Sports the day before the draft and use it solely that for their picks, because that's the one fantasy site that isn't blocked at work.
So we were eating lunch the other day and one spouted off, "We're going to ban laptops this year." My response was, "Fine, let's ban all paper as well and let's see who really knows this game.".... Not another word was said about it, except by the commish who said, "I'd be for that.". A worried look then crossed the others faces. It was very satisfying.
I'm also fond of pointing out that 4 of my first 5 draft picks were out for the season by week 8 and I still came in second in the league. As long as they don't ban Lineup Dominator, I'm set
And, I don't let Draft Dominator make my picks for me, it's simply a tool that's used in my decision making.
