What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Dynasty League Parity? (1 Viewer)

Gottabesweet

Footballguy
We are just finishing our third dynasty season and already have 3-4 powerhouse teams, 2 average ones and then the rest are just average or really below average.

We have very large deep rosters and am worried if a team wants to leave because they feel like they can't compete.

The winner of the toliet bowl (bottom 6 teams) gets rookie pick 1.1

The guy that got Peterson is a playoff team now because of it but still I worry about having to replace owners (for sure one this year) potential two more.

While half the league is friends, I don't have to worry about them leaving with a poor season. I'm just curious what other commish's do...

 
Last edited by a moderator:
We are just finishing our third dynasty season and already have 3-4 powerhouse teams, 2 average ones and then the rest are just average or really below average.We have very large deep rosters and am worried if a team wants to leave because they feel like they can't compete.The winner of the toliet bowl (bottom 6 teams) gets rookie pick 1.1 The guy that got Peterson is a playoff team now because of it but still I worry about having to replace owners (for sure one this year) potential two more. While half the league is friends, I don't have to worry about them leaving with a poor season. I'm just curious what other commish's do...
Parody = Monty PythonParity = a concept of equality of status or functional equivalence.TIA
 
We are just finishing our third dynasty season and already have 3-4 powerhouse teams, 2 average ones and then the rest are just average or really below average.We have very large deep rosters and am worried if a team wants to leave because they feel like they can't compete.The winner of the toliet bowl (bottom 6 teams) gets rookie pick 1.1 The guy that got Peterson is a playoff team now because of it but still I worry about having to replace owners (for sure one this year) potential two more. While half the league is friends, I don't have to worry about them leaving with a poor season. I'm just curious what other commish's do...
Parody = Monty PythonParity = a concept of equality of status or functional equivalence.TIA
:unsure: pathetic grammer police. If you don't want to answer the question, you obviously understood it don't bother posting. Pathetic.
 
We are just finishing our third dynasty season and already have 3-4 powerhouse teams, 2 average ones and then the rest are just average or really below average.We have very large deep rosters and am worried if a team wants to leave because they feel like they can't compete.The winner of the toliet bowl (bottom 6 teams) gets rookie pick 1.1 The guy that got Peterson is a playoff team now because of it but still I worry about having to replace owners (for sure one this year) potential two more. While half the league is friends, I don't have to worry about them leaving with a poor season. I'm just curious what other commish's do...
Parody = Monty PythonParity = a concept of equality of status or functional equivalence.TIA
:thumbdown: pathetic grammer police. If you don't want to answer the question, you obviously understood it don't bother posting. Pathetic.
Hey guy, I was just expecting a little more entertainment value in this thread given the (old) title. :popcorn: FWIW--I think you'll get better responses with the new title. You can thank me for that.
 
Giving the 1.01 pick to the winner of the toilet bowl (which will generally not be the worst team) is a terrible idea. You want the worst teams to get the best picks if you're trying to retain them.

 
Giving the 1.01 pick to the winner of the toilet bowl (which will generally not be the worst team) is a terrible idea. You want the worst teams to get the best picks if you're trying to retain them.
This is only for the first round and it gets all the 6 bottom teams interested in the final weeks. They are all bunched up so generally the toliet bowl is complete luck and anyone has a shot at 1.1 not just the 1st person who missed the playoffs.
 
That won't always be the case, and it often will not at all be the case. The 7th place team in my dynasty is 7-6, and the last place team is 2-11. Just get good rules to prevent tanking and do it like the NFL.

 
Giving the 1.01 pick to the winner of the toilet bowl (which will generally not be the worst team) is a terrible idea. You want the worst teams to get the best picks if you're trying to retain them.
This is only for the first round and it gets all the 6 bottom teams interested in the final weeks. They are all bunched up so generally the toliet bowl is complete luck and anyone has a shot at 1.1 not just the 1st person who missed the playoffs.
Only the first round? You mean the round that matters?Who gives a #### if they are interested in the final weeks?Anyway, you asked for advice; take it or leave it.
 
You could give bonus points for the worst teams in the toilet bowl to give them a better chance of winning it. For example you can give the #1 seed (i.e the worst team) 15 points each playoff week, the #2 seed (2nd worst team) 12 bonus points, #3 seed gets 9 points, etc... You can also make the rosters a little smaller so there is a little more value available on the waiver wire. If you are like most leagues where the worst teams get first choice on the waiver wire each week it will allow them to pick up someone they might find a little useful.

 
Thanks for all the advice.

It's just the 1.1 pick. The winner of the toliet bowl gets 1.1 then it goes worst to first throughout. The standings will update throughout.

6 teams do make the playoffs.

Our 2-11 team actually has more points for then our 6-7 team in the toliet bowl.

 
Thanks for all the advice.It's just the 1.1 pick. The winner of the toliet bowl gets 1.1 then it goes worst to first throughout. The standings will update throughout.6 teams do make the playoffs.Our 2-11 team actually has more points for then our 6-7 team in the toliet bowl.
If you are looking for parity, you need to get rid of rewarding the toilet bowl winner with the #1 pick. You already said that the guy who got Peterson made the playoffs. Pick 1.1 makes a difference. Make the toilet bowl prize something else. If you don't care about parity, continue doing what you're doing.Rank these teams based upon possible points, an all-play record, or a combination of the two. This eliminates tanking.Consider giving some priority in waivers to the weaker teams, at least at the beginning of the season.As someone else has pointed out, reduce your rosters.
 
We are just finishing our third dynasty season and already have 3-4 powerhouse teams, 2 average ones and then the rest are just average or really below average.We have very large deep rosters and am worried if a team wants to leave because they feel like they can't compete.The winner of the toliet bowl (bottom 6 teams) gets rookie pick 1.1 The guy that got Peterson is a playoff team now because of it but still I worry about having to replace owners (for sure one this year) potential two more. While half the league is friends, I don't have to worry about them leaving with a poor season. I'm just curious what other commish's do...
Parody = Monty PythonParity = a concept of equality of status or functional equivalence.TIA
:bag:
 
Make it an IDP league if it is not already...

Do not allow trades after week 10...

Worst team gets first shot at waiver wire free agents, certainly not FCFS...

Don't like the Toilet Bowl winner getting the 1st pick. I was 17-9 in one league and did not make the playoffs, bet I would win the #1 draft pick; the 3-23 team needs it way more than I do...

The biggest difference maker would be IDP, well setup IDP leagues make it easier for bad teams to rebuild at least a part of their team...

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Make it an IDP league if it is not already...Do not allow trades after week 10...Worst team gets first shot at waiver wire free agents, certainly not FCFS...Don't like the Toilet Bowl winner getting the 1st pick. I was 17-9 in one league and did not make the playoffs, bet I would win the #1 draft pick; the 3-23 team needs it way more than I do...The biggest difference maker would be IDP, well setup IDP leagues make it easier for bad teams to rebuild at least a part of their team...
:hot: I've been playing in an IDP 12 team dynasty league for 7 years. Very challenging but fun. I like the suggestion about worst team gets first shot at waiver wire free agents. Our league does FCFS and I dispise it. Also I suggest the bottom teams get multiple picks in the first round before the top teams. Those 2 changes could really help the bottom feeders migrate to the top more quickly and not take 1/2 a decade (or more).
 
What's an easy way to incorporate IDP into an exsisting dynasty, Just curious

If I go 1DL 1LB 1 safety and 1CB there will still be pleny of talent out there.

 
What's an easy way to incorporate IDP into an exsisting dynasty, Just curiousIf I go 1DL 1LB 1 safety and 1CB there will still be pleny of talent out there.
If you do IDP, make sure its not heavy for TD's scored. For instance Antrel Rolle for AZ has done absolutely nothing all season. One game (however) he had 2 INTs that he returned for a TD. His one-hit-wonder game in my leagues scoring system put him as the 6th ranked DB....needless to say, he's still a free agent, but the scoring system I'm in obviously isn't optimal.We play 3 DL's 3 LB's and 3DB's each game as a starting lineup.I'd give points for tackles, sacks, INTs (balance as you wish)I wish there was a way to give points for "tackles for a loss" and "passes defended" as those are measures of greatness on defense. Not sure if that is possible in most fantasy software though. Anyone know if those stats are available?
 
A few things that can be done...

- Weekly waiver wire picks can be based on win-loss record, with the bottom teams getting first choice

- The 1.1 pick should not be given to the TB winner; 1.1 goes to worst team

- Consider limiting amount of keepers each year, and possibly limiting amounts per position

 
What's an easy way to incorporate IDP into an exsisting dynasty, Just curiousIf I go 1DL 1LB 1 safety and 1CB there will still be pleny of talent out there.
I would start with 2DL, 2LB and 2DB with 2 flex IDP but no more than 3 at a position... Basically one of the positions would only start 2 players while the other two positions start 3. Again this offers flexibility within IDP...But it all depends on the total roster size, we have rosters of 53 players... We start 9 on offense and 8 on defense, you can do the math to adjust for your roster size...Also if you are going to add IDP to your league have a separate IDP only draft for the first year and do it before the next Rookie Draft...At the Rookie Draft have both rookie offense and IDP in the same draft...There is a lot of IDP knowledge and info on this site, best that I know of...Good luck
 
Last edited by a moderator:
What's an easy way to incorporate IDP into an exsisting dynasty, Just curiousIf I go 1DL 1LB 1 safety and 1CB there will still be pleny of talent out there.
If you do IDP, make sure its not heavy for TD's scored. For instance Antrel Rolle for AZ has done absolutely nothing all season. One game (however) he had 2 INTs that he returned for a TD. His one-hit-wonder game in my leagues scoring system put him as the 6th ranked DB....needless to say, he's still a free agent, but the scoring system I'm in obviously isn't optimal.We play 3 DL's 3 LB's and 3DB's each game as a starting lineup.I'd give points for tackles, sacks, INTs (balance as you wish)I wish there was a way to give points for "tackles for a loss" and "passes defended" as those are measures of greatness on defense. Not sure if that is possible in most fantasy software though. Anyone know if those stats are available?
What is the scoring in this?
 
Can you generally find people that like the challenge of trying to rebuild a bad team?

If we do vote on adding 3DL 3LB 3DB's Would this be a seperate 12 round draft for just IDP

and have another rookie draft?

 
Thanks for all the advice.It's just the 1.1 pick. The winner of the toliet bowl gets 1.1 then it goes worst to first throughout. The standings will update throughout.
So, the team that is the worst has little to no shot at the 1.1, and you are wondering why you lack parity? In a twelve team league with six playoff teams, i finshed with the most total points and a 7-6 record, but missed the playoffs. How fair is it for me to beat up on the bottom feeders on my way to adding Mcfadden to my roster?
 
What's an easy way to incorporate IDP into an exsisting dynasty, Just curiousIf I go 1DL 1LB 1 safety and 1CB there will still be pleny of talent out there.
If you do IDP, make sure its not heavy for TD's scored. For instance Antrel Rolle for AZ has done absolutely nothing all season. One game (however) he had 2 INTs that he returned for a TD. His one-hit-wonder game in my leagues scoring system put him as the 6th ranked DB....needless to say, he's still a free agent, but the scoring system I'm in obviously isn't optimal.We play 3 DL's 3 LB's and 3DB's each game as a starting lineup.I'd give points for tackles, sacks, INTs (balance as you wish)I wish there was a way to give points for "tackles for a loss" and "passes defended" as those are measures of greatness on defense. Not sure if that is possible in most fantasy software though. Anyone know if those stats are available?
What is the scoring in this?
Our league scoring on IDP is:Interceptions: 3 ptsFumble Recovery: 2 ptsForced Fumble: 2 ptsSack: 3 pt (1/2 sack = 1.5 pt)Tackles: 1 ptAssists: .5 ptBlocked Punt/FG: 3 ptsBlocked Punt/FG for yards: .1 ptBlocked Extra Point: 1 ptPasses Defended: 1 ptKick Return Yard: .025 ptPunt Return Yard: .05 ptInterception or Fumble Return Yard: .1 ptThis is a good start but personally would prefer 2 points for a tackle and 1 for an assist... Of course this all depends on whether or not your league site scores IDPs, we use MyFantasyLeague...
 
Giving the 1.01 pick to the winner of the toilet bowl (which will generally not be the worst team) is a terrible idea. You want the worst teams to get the best picks if you're trying to retain them.
This is only for the first round and it gets all the 6 bottom teams interested in the final weeks. They are all bunched up so generally the toliet bowl is complete luck and anyone has a shot at 1.1 not just the 1st person who missed the playoffs.
I'll pounce on this one also. Given that there are generally between 1-5 powerhouse players that come out in any given year, giving the 1.1 to the TB winner is a killer to the little guys. At least 20% of their chance of getting the stud is gone, and their future picks are devalued because no-one can be guaranteed 1.1. Maybe they're all bunched up, but you said yourself that you have 3-4 powerhouse teams and 2 average ones, with the others below average. If only 4 make the playoffs, then one of those 2 "average" teams will win the TB, and be on their way to a powerhouse, while the guy that just went 1-12 for the year is watching Adrian Peterson run for a guy that was 6-7.We also give a compensatory pick to the TB winner, but its a mid second round choice. Doesn't really keep people that interested ( not gonna wager next season to pick up a FA to win that pick, you know? ), but it helps, and there are other things you can do to maintain interest ( pick 'em or survivor pools for part of the league buy in, etc)
 
Thanks for all the advice.It's just the 1.1 pick. The winner of the toliet bowl gets 1.1 then it goes worst to first throughout. The standings will update throughout.
So, the team that is the worst has little to no shot at the 1.1, and you are wondering why you lack parity? In a twelve team league with six playoff teams, i finshed with the most total points and a 7-6 record, but missed the playoffs. How fair is it for me to beat up on the bottom feeders on my way to adding Mcfadden to my roster?
In your league maybe but in mine our 2-11 team has the more points then the other 5 toliet bowlers. We have two 6-7 teams and they are in the middle of scoring in the toliet bowl. The guy thats 2-11 if he loses at worst he'll pick 1.2 and then 2.1
 
Thanks for all the advice.It's just the 1.1 pick. The winner of the toliet bowl gets 1.1 then it goes worst to first throughout. The standings will update throughout.
So, the team that is the worst has little to no shot at the 1.1, and you are wondering why you lack parity? In a twelve team league with six playoff teams, i finshed with the most total points and a 7-6 record, but missed the playoffs. How fair is it for me to beat up on the bottom feeders on my way to adding Mcfadden to my roster?
In your league maybe but in mine our 2-11 team has the more points then the other 5 toliet bowlers. We have two 6-7 teams and they are in the middle of scoring in the toliet bowl. The guy thats 2-11 if he loses at worst he'll pick 1.2 and then 2.1
Thats a coincidence, the team least deserving of the 1.1 is the team most likely to get it every year.
 
Can you generally find people that like the challenge of trying to rebuild a bad team? If we do vote on adding 3DL 3LB 3DB's Would this be a seperate 12 round draft for just IDP and have another rookie draft?
I thought I already answered this but again:After the season is over have a separate IDP draft to get you started, will keep everyone interested during the off season also...Make sure that everyone knows the IDP scoring and make sure the draft is at least a month away if it passes the vote, give everyone the chance to understand what adding IDP players will mean to the league scoring overall...Make the rookie draft totally separate from the IDP draft but when the rookie draft gets here have both Offense and IDP in that draft...For the initial IDP draft do a serpentine draft starting with the worst team having the 1.01 IDP pick...
 
How can teams get better in a dynasty? Through the rookie draft, waivers, and trades. That's it. So as many others have said, you should not have a toilet bowl for the 1st overall pick. The draft is building block #1 for struggling teams and the top picks should always go to the squads that need them most. Next, you must use a worst-to-first waiver system based on year-to-date results. This not only helps struggling teams improve performance by having better guys, but also plays directly into the third improvement option of trading by enabling those bottom teams to acquire valuable bait for deals with the stronger teams. I would bet after two, possibly even one year of implementing these changes you will have a much more balanced league.

And by the way, if keeping teams interested late in the season is such a big deal, have games in week 15 (or whatever the first of week of your playoffs is) where 12th place plays 11th place for the top pick, 10th plays 9th for the 3rd pick, and so on.

 
If worried about quitters and finding replacement than make all pay the entry fee one season in advance. If they quit they lose that money and your replacement gets his first season free to try and rebuild the squad.

I would NEVER be in a Dynasty league that didn't have a pay one year in advance rule incorporated into it...you're just asking for that league to eventually fold.

 
That D scoring seems a little high, looks like a 9 tackle, 1 sack, day out performs a WR3
The IDP scoring has to add a lot to your overall scoring or it will mean nothing and will not change the outlook of the league...Yes a 9 tackle, 1 sack game = 12 points. A stud IDP performance and should outscore a WR3 and maybe even a WR2 at times...This is the point of expanding to IDP; an average offensive team with very good IDP players can make the playoffs whereas normally he will be out of the playoffs and losing interest in the league...
 
We are just finishing our third dynasty season and already have 3-4 powerhouse teams, 2 average ones and then the rest are just average or really below average.We have very large deep rosters and am worried if a team wants to leave because they feel like they can't compete.The winner of the toliet bowl (bottom 6 teams) gets rookie pick 1.1 The guy that got Peterson is a playoff team now because of it but still I worry about having to replace owners (for sure one this year) potential two more. While half the league is friends, I don't have to worry about them leaving with a poor season. I'm just curious what other commish's do...
Having a top draft pick in the rookie draft will keep a team around more often than not. I don't like the idea of all teams competing in the consolation bowl having a shot at the #1 rookie pick. I think most commissioners are overly concerned about tanking when they should be making sure the worst team gets the #1 rookie pick. For example - Your league has a team that is good but missed the playoffs due to some bad luck. He cruises through the consolation bowl and gets the #1 rookie pick. Your league will always be top heavy if you allow this. Just monitor the last few weeks of the regular season each year to make sure nobody is tanking. I monitor 2 leagues like this and have never witnessed tanking. In these 2 leagues the worst teams always get the top rookie picks and this gives them a shot at competing in future season.Simple but it works.
 
Good ideas above.

You could:

limit number of keepers

limit time of contract keepers -- ex. have to throw back after a few years, or if auction league, salary escalator

reverse order of standings waiver wire each week

 
Yeah, definitely get rid of the toilet bowl, no value added.

-Waivers wire pickups given to worst team record priority (instead of first come /first serve)...most of my starters today are waiver/free agent pickups from yeas past...not from rookie drafts.

- Give the last place team each season the 1st 2 rookie picks (1st and 2nd overall picks). That will help leverage them some if 1 high draft pick is a bust. Also gives them great trade leverage.

- In-season, we have roster limits of 15 Offense/15 defense and 5 flex (so usually 20 offense players & 15 defensive players). Off season, you could let the bottom 6 teams grow they're roster above (like instead of 35 overall players on a roster, let them build up to 50. The top 6 teams can never exceed roster size of the standard 35...so when they do the rookie draft (4 rounds for our 12 team league) if they have 4 picks they need to waive 4 roster spots before the draft to make room. Then about 1 week before season starts have roster trim down, just like in the NFL where all teams have to get back to the 15/15/5 flex standard.

By giving the lower teams more roster size in the offseason, this helps out alot. In the offseason "relaxed roster size" timeperiod, I've acquired Westbrook, Parker, Gore, B. Marshall, B. Berrian over the last few years. That really can help.

IDP if you think that will be enjoyed

Contract leagues are alot of fun, I've been waiting 3 years to get into this one I know of...waiting for a dropout owner.

 
My league is a contract, salary cap league, and I think not only does that aspect of it help give teams the ability to turn things around, but its a great addition to give you more to do with your team.

When a player is acquired from bidding waivers or the vet auction, his winning bid is his salary. Rookies get a set salary by position and round picked, based on an average of vet players at their position.

Contracts last for 3 years. Between year 2 and 3 you can give the guy a raise that goes into effect in year 3, that will extend his contract to a 4th or 5th year (20% raise with a minimum for 4th year, 40% raise with a min for 5th year). We also have franchise and transition tags that can be used to retain a player after his contract is up, but those also carry a min salary based on top 5/top 10 average at their position and a raise over their previous salary.

We're only a few years in, but we've already seen a team go from two consecutive top 3 regular season finishes and a SB, to next to last place. A team that was a cellar dweller the first 2 seasons was competing for top spot in the regular season until he fell off late in the season but still made the top seed in the consolation bracket.

With this kind of setup, you want the raises to be enough that players who are already well-priced shouldn't be retained at the higher salaries. This puts enough guys back in the vet auction each year so there is an opportunity to turn things around. My own team has a lot of good value players, but I just can't free up the cap room as a result to go pick up players in the vet auction. So when I have to let a good player go to pay for raises to guys that will still be a good value, someone else snaps him up.

 
Holy over-reaction, batman. :football:

Yeah, definitely get rid of the toilet bowl, no value added.
The TB **does** have value, just too great a prize. At least everyone has something to do for the last couple of weeks. I personally agree with awarding something, just not something as valuable as the first pick overall. A pick at the start or middle of the second round sounds about right to me, depending on league size.
-Waivers wire pickups given to worst team record priority (instead of first come /first serve)...most of my starters today are waiver/free agent pickups from yeas past...not from rookie drafts.
I can see where you're going, but I have hated this setup in every league I have played where it is used. Waivers are a necessity, so computer vultures dont run around picking up the breakout guys on Sunday while the rest of us are getting drunk, but set them as the reverse of the draft order, without resets through the year.Better yet... blind bids. :shrug:
- Give the last place team each season the 1st 2 rookie picks (1st and 2nd overall picks). That will help leverage them some if 1 high draft pick is a bust. Also gives them great trade leverage.
Wow. You mean I could have gotten ADP **AND** Marshawn? The guy is looking for parity, not a complete upheaval of the power structure. Part of a dynasty is picking correctly in drafts and FAs. You can help the lower teams to a certain degree, but a rebuilding team should have to rebuild a bit, they shouldn't be able to go from dead last to powerhouse in a single season just by a single draft.The idea has some merit, but giving 1.01 and 1.02 to one guy is just as bad as giving 1.01 to the winner of the TB.
IDP if you think that will be enjoyed
Agreed here. I was a big skeptic until I played one. Not I'm working hard to move all of my leagues to IDP, not simply the dynasties.
 
We allow 6 teams into the playoffs (12 team league)

4 Divisions - so we have 4 division winners and 2 wild cards.

Each Division is changed every year - we have what we call strong division and weak divisions. The top 6 teams that made the playoffs all end up in the same division the next year. The bottom 6 teams all end up in their own division. This means that the road to the playoffs is much easier for the bad teams.

Every week our waiver wire resets - the worst teams always get 1st picks.

The two worst teams in our league play for the right to the #1 pick. Loser gets #2 picks. This assures that the two worst teams will get #1 or #2.

We don't allow any waiver moves the first 3 weeks of the season. Then we have a re-entry draft - the worst teams are ussually able to get the players that came out of no where - this year Derrick Anderson, Earnest Graham, etc.

All this seems to do a pretty good job. This year we have 4 out of 6 teams in the playoffs that did not make it last year.

 
We rearrange the divisions based on record for the next season.

That helps.

4 divisions, 12 teams

Next year, the 3 worst teams will be in the same division, one will be guaranteed a playoff spot via winning the division, and the 3 best teams will be in the same division, and so forth.

 
Giving the 1.01 pick to the winner of the toilet bowl (which will generally not be the worst team) is a terrible idea. You want the worst teams to get the best picks if you're trying to retain them.
i agreegive the #1 pick to the team with the worest regular season record. this gives a bad team something to build around, if the can get a player like LT, ADP or McFadden
 
Give a most improved cash prize.

Our league has one as a third place prize.

A team that was really bad say 2-12 the year before if they can get back to 500 will probably get some money. The worse teams can improve by more games than the good teams. There is no truly lost season, even if you don't feel you can win the league coaches still have something to shoot for.

 
What's an easy way to incorporate IDP into an exsisting dynasty, Just curiousIf I go 1DL 1LB 1 safety and 1CB there will still be pleny of talent out there.
Careful, If I wanted to be in a IDP league i would have joined one. You may have to find even more replacement owners if you do this.Rosters are too big. If you cut down to 20-24 players or so that would help quite a bit imo.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I'm just thinking a little bit out of the normal here so I'm not sure if this will be an idea that is liked or disliked. Have the worst two teams play the toilet bowl with the winner getting the 1.01 pick. Have the other non-playoff teams play in a consolation bracket for an extra pick at the end of round 1 or round 2?

I believe that you may also want to consider a salary cap, point system or contract years to force some player movement. I am very much in favor of increasing a player cost somehow for each year a player remains on a team. Not so much that a team must cut a stud player but enough where they must sacrafice somewhere to retain him.

 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top