Dynasty Rankings (2 Viewers)

[thriftyrocker]

You must not watch many Cards games....Hightower is a much better blocker and pass catcher than Wells...If he did not have the fumbling problem Wells would probably be seeing less time. Wells has much more upside but to say that Hightower does not threaton his playing time is naive.

You're right I don't watch every Cardinals game. But I have seen enough to know Hightower is mediocre.

 

[I was in the pool]

I don't think anyone is dropping Felix... but I think people are pricing Felix much higher than Wells in many cases. And to be honest - if you gave me the choice, all else being equal, in a startup draft right now, I'd take Wells... because I think his upside is greater because I think he's more likely to be an every down back.

I was able to trade for Felix (for cheap) earlier in the year in one keeper league, but no one is dropping him at this point because they are holding out hope that Dallas' line gets fixed some decade and we can see Felix with some carries and a chance to prove or disprove our assumptions one way or another. Wells has those same issues, plus the health thing, but instead of everyone on here getting all huffy, we can all agree that they have intrinsic talent - both guys were and are talented (see 1st round draft picks), who played in big time college conferences and had the skills that translate to the NFL and the opportunity to be a featured back. They are still very young with more chances at consistent carries on their teams.

 

[ookook]

Very similar to Wells and Greene question above: What is your take on Kenny Britt vs. Demaryius Thomas?

I had Thomas higher coming into the year, but he has been injured. Then Britt started producing and also go injured. Enter Randy Moss. Of course, Denver has Lloyd but a better passing offense.

If you had to keep one and were trading the other, which would you hang onto?

 

[Dr. Octopus]

I think your thoughts on the matter are very logical. But here is where I disagree: I don't think Felix is a Spiller, Best, or even Jamaal Charles type. I know weight is not everything, but it - along with build - do play a part when projecting a players ability to absorb the wear and tear of the NFL. Felix Jones is bigger than Marion Barber. Felix Jones is bigger than Ahmad Bradshaw. The fact that he is faster than both Bradshaw and Barber does not mean that he won't last as long or should be sheltered.

On to your next point, that what makes Felix special is his electric ability, and he could lose that if shouldering a major carry burden. While I do agree, in general, that that is the case, I think Felix is different. I liken Felix much more to a Priest Holmes than any of the names that have been thrown around: Norwood, Best, Spiller, Charles, and even CJ. While Felix is fast, that is not his best asset, nor is his speed enough to make him special. I don't know this to be fact, but I would assume he is closer to a 4.5 than a 4.2, unlike Jamaal Charles and CJ4.24 - maybe around a low to mid 4.4.

What makes Felix special are the same things that made Priest Holmes special: speed, quickness (feet), decisiveness, cutting ability, vision, and the biggest one (although in large part due to the others) the ability to make people miss without "juking" and without moving east and west. Felix, like Holmes, moves in diagonal lines, as to get yardage without risking the loss of yardage. In other works, he can make you miss moving forward, not wasting motion (which is energy) and allowing himself to get where he needs to go faster than most running backs in the NFL. If you watch him play, he doesn't juke very often at all, and that is a good thing - he doesn't always need to.

The only aspect of Felix's game that I question, aside from health, is balance. Felix can be hit from the side, and be thrown off course, while guys like MJD and Ray Rice can absorb and move forward. I think Holmes had some of the same issues, and it didn't prevent him from being elite, for a time. McFadden definitely has the same issue, and he is tearing it up right now.

You're entitled to your opinion. I'm just not convinced he will ever be a top RB for fantasy purposes. If his price was super-low, I might consider buying him - but there are some like yourself (and of course most tend to be Felix Jones owners) who take the most optimistic view of him. To me, he doesn't show enough vision, runs too upright, and doesn't run between the tackles well enough to be an every down back, and that to me is going to prevent him from ever being a fantasy stud. (Ray Rice, MJD and CJ3 are all great inside runners despite not being the biggest guys, because of their footwork, balance and vision). Look at his highlights:

Priest Holmes was a very talented back, but playing behind the best o-line in the league by far had a lot to do with him being "legendary" or "elite". Look what LJ did behind that line when Priest went down.

 

[thehornet]

Felix can be a starter for an NFL team but he'll never be a workhorse back. He hasn't ever been a workhorse back dating back to his froeshman year at college. This isn't the type of thing where you can turn the corner.

So, let me make sure I understand you. Because he played behind Darren McFadden (the best college RB during his stint) and Marion Barber, the Cowboys use a RBBC, and don't run the ball, Felix can't "turn the corner?"If he played at Ole Miss, started, and got 20 carries a game, he would be able to? Or if he was drafted by the Lions, and got 16 carries a game, he would be fine, but because he wasn't, he can't turn the corner?How exactly did Michael Turner turn the corner? Or does the fact that he didn't play behind Darren McFadden allow him to?

I don;t even know where to start here. This is just ramblings of someone who wants "his" player to be someone he clearly isn't.First off, he didn't play at Ole Miss so I don't get your point. And he didnt recieve 20 carries par game for more reasons than just that he played behind a better running back. yes, that's right, a better running back. What does Turner have to do with this? Turner is a stud workhorse 240LB tailback. That's 40 ilbs of muscle over Felix. He has proven his ability to carry a fetured back load since Northern Illinois. He practically had more carries during his junior year than Felix did during his entire career at Arkansas. Furthermore, he carried the ball over 300 times twice as a college player and nearly 1000 carries total in his caeer compared to 386. Basically, he carried the ball 235 times per year to Felix's 128. And this was done over a longer period of time - sustainablility. I hope that is clear enough for you. Turner carried the ball more rime in 2008 than Felix;s entire 3 year NFL career. Dude, he isn't a workhorse. Deal with it.

 

[Concept Coop]

Felix can be a starter for an NFL team but he'll never be a workhorse back. He hasn't ever been a workhorse back dating back to his froeshman year at college. This isn't the type of thing where you can turn the corner.

So, let me make sure I understand you. Because he played behind Darren McFadden (the best college RB during his stint) and Marion Barber, the Cowboys use a RBBC, and don't run the ball, Felix can't "turn the corner?"If he played at Ole Miss, started, and got 20 carries a game, he would be able to? Or if he was drafted by the Lions, and got 16 carries a game, he would be fine, but because he wasn't, he can't turn the corner?How exactly did Michael Turner turn the corner? Or does the fact that he didn't play behind Darren McFadden allow him to?

I don;t even know where to start here. This is just ramblings of someone who wants "his" player to be someone he clearly isn't.First off, he didn't play at Ole Miss so I don't get your point. And he didnt recieve 20 carries par game for more reasons than just that he played behind a better running back. yes, that's right, a better running back. What does Turner have to do with this? Turner is a stud workhorse 240LB tailback. That's 40 ilbs of muscle over Felix. He has proven his ability to carry a fetured back load since Northern Illinois. He practically had more carries during his junior year than Felix did during his entire career at Arkansas. Furthermore, he carried the ball over 300 times twice as a college player and nearly 1000 carries total in his caeer compared to 386. Basically, he carried the ball 235 times per year to Felix's 128. And this was done over a longer period of time - sustainablility. I hope that is clear enough for you. Turner carried the ball more rime in 2008 than Felix;s entire 3 year NFL career. Dude, he isn't a workhorse. Deal with it.

First off, lets get some simple math striaght: 240-220 = 20; 20 lbs. Deal with it. (More than LT2, Ahmad Bradshaw, Marion Barber, Ryan Matthews, Joeseph Addai, and PLENTY of others who have been starting RBs in the NFL)He got fewer carries because he played behind one of the best college runningbacks ever. Turner, or just about anyone else you want to replace him with, would have been behind McFadden too. Deal with it.What does 2008 have to do with anything? Lets use the first 3 years of their career, per game. Is that not fair? Deal with it.You are arguing that Felix isn't a workhorse becaue he didn't get carries in college, no? Well he got more carries than he college teammate, Peyton Hillis, who is clearly a workhorse, so your theory is faulty. Deal with it.I am not saying Felix is a workhorse, if by workhorse you mean 20/game on average, like an Adrian Peterson or Michael Turner. I am saying he can be the main RB and put up RB1 numbers, much like McCoy and McFadden are doing right now. Deal with it.

 

[thehornet]

Felix can be a starter for an NFL team but he'll never be a workhorse back. He hasn't ever been a workhorse back dating back to his froeshman year at college. This isn't the type of thing where you can turn the corner.

So, let me make sure I understand you. Because he played behind Darren McFadden (the best college RB during his stint) and Marion Barber, the Cowboys use a RBBC, and don't run the ball, Felix can't "turn the corner?"If he played at Ole Miss, started, and got 20 carries a game, he would be able to? Or if he was drafted by the Lions, and got 16 carries a game, he would be fine, but because he wasn't, he can't turn the corner?How exactly did Michael Turner turn the corner? Or does the fact that he didn't play behind Darren McFadden allow him to?

I don;t even know where to start here. This is just ramblings of someone who wants "his" player to be someone he clearly isn't.First off, he didn't play at Ole Miss so I don't get your point. And he didnt recieve 20 carries par game for more reasons than just that he played behind a better running back. yes, that's right, a better running back. What does Turner have to do with this? Turner is a stud workhorse 240LB tailback. That's 40 ilbs of muscle over Felix. He has proven his ability to carry a fetured back load since Northern Illinois. He practically had more carries during his junior year than Felix did during his entire career at Arkansas. Furthermore, he carried the ball over 300 times twice as a college player and nearly 1000 carries total in his caeer compared to 386. Basically, he carried the ball 235 times per year to Felix's 128. And this was done over a longer period of time - sustainablility. I hope that is clear enough for you. Turner carried the ball more rime in 2008 than Felix;s entire 3 year NFL career. Dude, he isn't a workhorse. Deal with it.

First off, lets get some simple math striaght: 240-220 = 20; 20 lbs. Deal with it.He got fewer carries because he played behind one of the best college runningbacks ever. Turner, or just about anyone else you want to replace him with, would have been behind McFadden too. Deal with it.What does 2008 have to do with anything? Lets use the first 3 years of their career, per game. Is that not fair? Deal with it.You are arguing that Felix isn't a workhorse becaue he didn't get carries in college, no? Well he got more carries than he college teammate, Peyton Hillis, who is clearly a workhorse, so your theory is faulty. Deal with it.I am not saying Felix is a workhorse, if by workhorse you mean 20/game on average, like an Adrian Peterson or Michael Turner. I am saying he can be the main RB and put up RB1 numbers, much like McCoy and McFadden are doing right now. Deal with it.

I'm not arguing, you are. You are just pissed off for some weird reason. Dude, look at my original post quoted here. Felix isn't a workhorse back becuase he has nver been one. EVER. College coaches, NFL coaches and knowledgeable people can see this. too bad you cant.you know what forget it. felix is a featured workhorse back who is probably going to carry the ball over 300 times per year for the next 6-7 years. you're right.

 

[Concept Coop]

I'm not arguing, you are. You are just pissed off for some weird reason. Dude, look at my original post quoted here. Felix isn't a workhorse back becuase he has nver been one. EVER. College coaches, NFL coaches and knowledgeable people can see this. too bad you cant.you know what forget it. felix is a featured workhorse back who is probably going to carry the ball over 300 times per year for the next 6-7 years. you're right.

"Deal with it." Is not arguing? What am I doing that you are not?Peyton Hillis wasn't a workhorse back, until he got the opportunity to start, then - guess what! - he was. If Felix played for one of about 110 other schools, he would have started and got plenty of carries - he just happened to play behind an all time great. If you read the very quote that you commented on, I never said he would, could, or should get 300 carries, especially for 6-7 years. In fact, I said he wasn't a 300 carry back. I said he could be a starting RB, and produce RB1 numbers.

 

[Glaven]

Very similar to Wells and Greene question above: What is your take on Kenny Britt vs. Demaryius Thomas?I had Thomas higher coming into the year, but he has been injured. Then Britt started producing and also go injured. Enter Randy Moss. Of course, Denver has Lloyd but a better passing offense.If you had to keep one and were trading the other, which would you hang onto?

I'd rather have Demaryious Thomas than Kenny Britt. The fact that Kenny Britt's perceived value is likely higher than Demaryoius', makes it an even easier decision for me.

 

[mcintyre1]

Wow, seriously, take the Felix mud slinging to PM. No one cares anymore.

 

[corpcow]

I don't think anyone is dropping Felix... but I think people are pricing Felix much higher than Wells in many cases. And to be honest - if you gave me the choice, all else being equal, in a startup draft right now, I'd take Wells... because I think his upside is greater because I think he's more likely to be an every down back.

I was able to trade for Felix (for cheap) earlier in the year in one keeper league, but no one is dropping him at this point because they are holding out hope that Dallas' line gets fixed some decade and we can see Felix with some carries and a chance to prove or disprove our assumptions one way or another. Wells has those same issues, plus the health thing, but instead of everyone on here getting all huffy, we can all agree that they have intrinsic talent - both guys were and are talented (see 1st round draft picks), who played in big time college conferences and had the skills that translate to the NFL and the opportunity to be a featured back. They are still very young with more chances at consistent carries on their teams.

Agree - both are very talented. And the fact is, Felix has had had a bigger impact so far in the NFL. The reason I say Wells upside is greater is that he is the type of back who can be a 3-down back, and thus a fantasy stud. Without getting into this argument again, I just feel as though Felix will have a bigger impact in the NFL than in fantasy terms.

 

[Concept Coop]

Wow, seriously, take the Felix mud slinging to PM. No one cares anymore.

I count quite a few people that care. Nobody is making your read anything. If you came here to talk about something else, I doubt anyone has a problem with you bringing up a new topic. If not, nobody is breaking any rules, nor are you a mod.

 

[ebaughn]

Very similar to Wells and Greene question above: What is your take on Kenny Britt vs. Demaryius Thomas?I had Thomas higher coming into the year, but he has been injured. Then Britt started producing and also go injured. Enter Randy Moss. Of course, Denver has Lloyd but a better passing offense.If you had to keep one and were trading the other, which would you hang onto?

I'd rather have Demaryious Thomas than Kenny Britt. The fact that Kenny Britt's perceived value is likely higher than Demaryoius', makes it an even easier decision for me.

I think they are pretty similar skill set WR. Both are big targets, 22 years old, pretty fast but not burners. I think they both can become top 10 WR as long as injuries don't impede their progress. Britt is a little farther a long because of his experience last year. I have them both in a dynasty league and I am really excited for their potential but I feel like Britt will really emerge next year and Thomas the year after that. I would rather have Britt personally but their are very close in my estimations as prospects.

 

[corpcow]

I'm not arguing, you are. You are just pissed off for some weird reason. Dude, look at my original post quoted here.

Felix isn't a workhorse back becuase he has nver been one. EVER. College coaches, NFL coaches and knowledgeable people can see this. too bad you cant.

you know what forget it. felix is a featured workhorse back who is probably going to carry the ball over 300 times per year for the next 6-7 years. you're right.

"Deal with it." Is not arguing? What am I doing that you are not?Peyton Hillis wasn't a workhorse back, until he got the opportunity to start, then - guess what! - he was.

If Felix played for one of about 110 other schools, he would have started and got plenty of carries - he just happened to play behind an all time great.

If you read the very quote that you commented on, I never said he would, could, or should get 300 carries, especially for 6-7 years. In fact, I said he wasn't a 300 carry back. I said he could be a starting RB, and produce RB1 numbers.

This discussion has gotten really tiresome. You're just arguing with yourself in circles. We get it - you believe Felix Jones can be a 320 carry per year guy, most of us don't . But to compare him to Hillis or Turner strictly on lack of opportunity COMPLETELY misses the point. What most of us are saying is that Felix is not built to be a 320 carry guy - not because of lack of opportunity. There are guys who haven't had the opportunity to be feature backs (e.g., S-Jax in his early career behind HOF Faulk, Turner when he was behind one of the greatest PRO RBs ever in the history of the game, etc) who many of us have felt could and would be feature bellcows in the future. While I personally don't think Hillis can sustain this load indefinitely just given how much punishment he takes (and gives), I don't think anyone looked at him and said "here's a guy who can't handle 20 carries a game" from a physical perspective.

I think that Hornet's quote was taken somewhat out of context - I don't think he's really saying Felix can't be a workhorse just because he hasn't been, based on what he's said previously. Rather, we're saying he won't be a workhorse because we don't think he can be, based on injury history, how his coaches/GM have talked about him, and how he has been successful to this point (and he HAS made an impact at the NFL level).

I can't remember who said it - but I remember someone comparing MBIII to the everyday hooptie and Felix Jones as the Lamborghini that you only take out once in awhile (and spends a lot of time in the shop).

Anyway, moving on....

 

[Fear & Loathing]

Wow, seriously, take the Felix mud slinging to PM. No one cares anymore.

I count quite a few people that care. Nobody is making your read anything. If you came here to talk about something else, I doubt anyone has a problem with you bringing up a new topic. If not, nobody is breaking any rules, nor are you a mod.

Coop, you're like a pebble. A pebble in the shoe.

 

[Concept Coop]

I'm not arguing, you are. You are just pissed off for some weird reason. Dude, look at my original post quoted here.

Felix isn't a workhorse back becuase he has nver been one. EVER. College coaches, NFL coaches and knowledgeable people can see this. too bad you cant.

you know what forget it. felix is a featured workhorse back who is probably going to carry the ball over 300 times per year for the next 6-7 years. you're right.

"Deal with it." Is not arguing? What am I doing that you are not?Peyton Hillis wasn't a workhorse back, until he got the opportunity to start, then - guess what! - he was.

If Felix played for one of about 110 other schools, he would have started and got plenty of carries - he just happened to play behind an all time great.

If you read the very quote that you commented on, I never said he would, could, or should get 300 carries, especially for 6-7 years. In fact, I said he wasn't a 300 carry back. I said he could be a starting RB, and produce RB1 numbers.

This discussion has gotten really tiresome. You're just arguing with yourself in circles. We get it - you believe Felix Jones can be a 320 carry per year guy, most of us don't . But to compare him to Hillis or Turner strictly on lack of opportunity COMPLETELY misses the point. What most of us are saying is that Felix is not built to be a 320 carry guy - not because of lack of opportunity. There are guys who haven't had the opportunity to be feature backs (e.g., S-Jax in his early career behind HOF Faulk, Turner when he was behind one of the greatest PRO RBs ever in the history of the game, etc) who many of us have felt could and would be feature bellcows in the future. While I personally don't think Hillis can sustain this load indefinitely just given how much punishment he takes (and gives), I don't think anyone looked at him and said "here's a guy who can't handle 20 carries a game" from a physical perspective.

I think that Hornet's quote was taken somewhat out of context - I don't think he's really saying Felix can't be a workhorse just because he hasn't been, based on what he's said previously. Rather, we're saying he won't be a workhorse because we don't think he can be, based on injury history, how his coaches/GM have talked about him, and how he has been successful to this point (and he HAS made an impact at the NFL level).

I can't remember who said it - but I remember someone comparing MBIII to the everyday hooptie and Felix Jones as the Lamborghini that you only take out once in awhile (and spends a lot of time in the shop).

Anyway, moving on....

I don't know how I am the one arguing in circles, or responsible for the topic being "stale". I am simply replying to those that quote me, often without me addressing them directly, much like yourself. So if it is as simple as some agree, some don't, then why did you bring it up again? At the very least, don't accuse me to do what you are in fact doing yourself. And why do people keep putting words in my mouth? When did I say Felix could handle 320 carries? I didn't. If fact, I said the opposite. I HAVE heard the following arguments, whether you made them or not. So when I respond to them, don't assume I am responding to your argument or belief in Felix:

Size: He is bigger than Ladanian Tomlinson, Marion Barber, Ahmad Bradshaw and many, many more.

Injury history: Fair enough. But, at least acknowledge that the injuries he did have, historically, do not have lasting effects on the body.

Workload in college: He played behind McFadden, which 95+% of all runningbacks would have - DMC was that great. Hillis, Willie Parker, B. Jacobs, and others were backups in college and did just fine in the NFL.

Workload in the NFL: He was playing behind Barber, and was in a RBBC. Now that Barber has slowed down, Felix IS getting most of the carries. The Cowboys just don't run the ball, they still use a RBBC, and the O-line is awful.

Coach talk: Aside from a TV clip during a time when the Cowboys already had a probowl, everydown back, I don't know what it really means. Especially when - again - they are giving Felix more carries than Barber now.

So, I feel that I have addressed, and expressed my opinion on all of the questions most have about Felix. I understand and respect that others may have opinions of their own. I won't bring it up again, if others don't. So if you don't want to talk about it anymore, don't talk about it. If you do, I enjoy debate, and most forms of conversation regarding to this hobby and am happy continue.

 

[Concept Coop]

Wow, seriously, take the Felix mud slinging to PM. No one cares anymore.

I count quite a few people that care. Nobody is making your read anything. If you came here to talk about something else, I doubt anyone has a problem with you bringing up a new topic. If not, nobody is breaking any rules, nor are you a mod.

Coop, you're like a pebble. A pebble in the shoe.

I see that. Can you help me understand how? I am asking a serious question. People are quoting me, and I am responding to them. How exactly am I the one extending the conversation or making it stale?

 

[Instinctive]

Can we please get off this Felix Jones junk? It has buried a promising start on Beanie Wells.

Is Wells having chronic injuries? Or is he having complications on one injury? Are his injuries related? Is he all that talented to begin with?

 

[Concept Coop]

Can we please get off this Felix Jones junk? It has buried a promising start on Beanie Wells.Is Wells having chronic injuries? Or is he having complications on one injury? Are his injuries related? Is he all that talented to begin with?

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.His injuries are related, and do seem chronic. He is a great talent, in my opinion.

 

[Hoosier16]

What is the current value of Gates? If you were out of the playoff hunt this year, what TE would you trade him for straight up? How about if you were in the playoff hunt. What TEs would you give up to acquire him? Is he even worth acquiring for a playoff run with him being hobbled right now? It seems to me that he may have one more year of great production, probably more on the level of last year versus this year. After that, i could see him retiring or his production falling to the Atlanta Gonzalez level.

Using SSOG's current rankings, which would take / give for gates?

 

[WFR]

Let's talk WR's to stash at the end of the bench!

In no particular order:

Eric Decker - Can any Denver homers chime in?

I know he hasn't been used much if at all (Special teams) this year but I'm looking for a stash for next year in my dynasty league.

Jacoby Jones - Seems like he's had the opportunity but not doing anything with it. Way too much running going on in HOU!

Seyi Ajirotutu - With Jackson and others possibly moving on is he worth a stash?

Emmanuel Sanders - As much as I'd like to see it, Hines Ward can't last forever. Wallace + Sanders would make a nice combo.

Golden Tate - hasn't shown much this year.

Deon Butler - 3 TD's on the year now.

Amendola - is he worth the trouble in a non-ppr league. Will one of the other WR's come through for Bradford later in the season?

Jacoby Ford - If Murphy can't stay healthy and DHB doesn't develop does he have value?

Riley Cooper - was targeted but had some bad drops last night. High-powered offense and all of them are young. RZ target?

Jordy Nelson - With Driver slowly being phased out does his value increase?

 

[I was in the pool]

Let's talk WR's to stash at the end of the bench!

In no particular order:

Eric Decker - Denver Homers

I know he hasn't been used much if at all (Special teams) this year but I'm looking for a stash for next year in my dynasty league.

Jacoby Jones - Seems like he's had the opportunity but not doing anything with it. Way too much running going on in HOU!

Seyi Ajirotutu - With Jackson and others possibly moving on is he worth a stash?

Emmanuel Sanders - As much as I'd like to see it, Hines Ward can't last forever. Wallace + Sanders would make a nice combo.

Golden Tate - hasn't shown much this year.

Deon Butler - 3 TD's on the year now.

Amendola - is he worth the trouble in a non-ppr league. Will one of the other WR's come through for Bradford later in the season?

Jacoby Ford - If Murphy can't stay healthy and DHB doesn't develop does he have value?

Riley Cooper - was targeted but had some bad drops last night. High-powered offense and all of them are young. RZ target?

Jordy Nelson - With Driver slowly being phased out does his value increase?

I personally have acquired, and like the most, Sanders, Amendola and Tate.I think Sanders will see the biggest bump in production heading into 2011. We are just starting to see him play on offense because Ward is nicked up and that will continue next year.

Amendola is the most consistent thing in the STL passing game. All the other guys have great potential blah blah blah. Amendola is actually out there, making catches and contributing.

The Seattle WR corps is wide open except that Williams looks pretty good at the #1 spot (that's why Branch was expendable). Butler and Tate will be in competition for the #2 spot in 2011 - Tate has more talent and with a full offseason to work on his route-running and all the "pre-catch" stuff, his talent will get to shine next year.

Just my two cents.

 

[WFR]

Good stuff fdctrumpet!

Thanks!

Anyone else?

 

[EBF]

Sanders looked pretty good in the plays I saw from Sunday's game. It's early yet, but he could be the real long term gem of that WR corps.

 

[Concept Coop]

What is the current value of Gates? If you were out of the playoff hunt this year, what TE would you trade him for straight up? How about if you were in the playoff hunt. What TEs would you give up to acquire him? Is he even worth acquiring for a playoff run with him being hobbled right now? It seems to me that he may have one more year of great production, probably more on the level of last year versus this year. After that, i could see him retiring or his production falling to the Atlanta Gonzalez level.

Using SSOG's current rankings, which would take / give for gates?

Gates is my dynasty #1, in a vacuum. If I was rebuilding, I still don't know that I would trade any TE straight. It would take a Hernandez, Finley, Miller +. He has more than one year, trust me. He has not started slowing down yet. I would say more like 3 years.

 

[SSOG]

2. If Peyton Hillis has a Rudi Johnson type career or 3 - 4 years of this type performance before he breaks down, then doesn't he warrant being ranked higher as well?

Higher than what? I don't hear a lot of Peyton Hillis dynasty talk, so I really have no feel for what the general consensus on him is right now.

 

[SSOG]

The first point was that it's silly to suggest that Vick is "old". The second point is that Vick is an underrated passer and it's silly to suggest that he could never be an effective passer. I'm sure plenty of people would have once said Randall Cunningham could never develop into an adequate passer, too... right up until he dropped a 3700/34 on them.

If Vick ever had 560 pass attempts, I'm sure he'd have some 3500+ seasons, too. Unfortunately for Vick, he's only once attempted more than 400 passes in his career- a whopping 420 passing attempts way back in 2002. I just think a lot of people are confusing "has never been asked to pass" with "can't pass". Historically, Michael Vick has been as effective of a passer as an Eli Manning or a Randall Cunningham.

I'm not "failing to realize" that Manning has made a marked improvement. That was the point I was making. Eli Manning made a marked improvement after 5 years in the league. Eli played 5 years without ever topping 7 ypa, and then suddenly his ypa jumped to 7.9. Why can't Michael Vick, who has essentially been as effective to date as Manning has, also improve? Eli Manning didn't "make the jump" until he was 28 years old. Michael Vick was serving the second year of his suspension at age 28. He might have made the exact same jump as Eli did had he remained in the league. Hell, it's possible that he *HAS* made the same jump as Eli has. We're essentially judging Michael Vick the passer based on what he did 4 years ago, as a 26 year old in 2006. How about we at least give him a couple of games to see how good of a passer he really is before declaring him a hopelessly impossible passer? Everyone is being awfully quick to bury a guy who has attempted 27 passes in the last 4 years.

Yes, it's self-serving and egotistical and possibly the slightest bit obnoxious, and pointing out individual correct outcomes really deviates from my whole process vs. outcome mentality... but after all the crap I have to hear when it turns out I was wrong on a player, this trio of posts from back in September gets a well-deserved bump.I also suspect that the Vick and Orton rankings which raised a few eyebrows a couple of weeks ago are probably going down a little bit smoother this week. We now return you to your regularly scheduled rankings bashing.

 

[benm3218]

2. If Peyton Hillis has a Rudi Johnson type career or 3 - 4 years of this type performance before he breaks down, then doesn't he warrant being ranked higher as well?

Higher than what? I don't hear a lot of Peyton Hillis dynasty talk, so I really have no feel for what the general consensus on him is right now.

I get the impression he is viewed as a 20 to 30's ranked guy. I don't think he's elite dynasty level, but 3 or 4 years of top 6 performance would be enough for me to rank in the low teens. Curious what you, EBF, and F&L thought?

 

[3optic]

Any new thoughts on Keiland Williams value?

 

[thriftyrocker]

2. If Peyton Hillis has a Rudi Johnson type career or 3 - 4 years of this type performance before he breaks down, then doesn't he warrant being ranked higher as well?

Higher than what? I don't hear a lot of Peyton Hillis dynasty talk, so I really have no feel for what the general consensus on him is right now.

I get the impression he is viewed as a 20 to 30's ranked guy. I don't think he's elite dynasty level, but 3 or 4 years of top 6 performance would be enough for me to rank in the low teens. Curious what you, EBF, and F&L thought?

If you think he'll give you 4 years of top 6 performance he should be in your top 6.

 

[Steelers22]

Does Fear and Loathing have any updated rankings lately? I know he posts on rotoworld but I mainly just see the rankings from the beginning of the season

 

[SSOG]

Does Fear and Loathing have any updated rankings lately? I know he posts on rotoworld but I mainly just see the rankings from the beginning of the season

If you purchase Rotoworld's season pass, his rankings are available as part of their weekly content. New rankings come out every Thursday.

 

[SSOG]

2. If Peyton Hillis has a Rudi Johnson type career or 3 - 4 years of this type performance before he breaks down, then doesn't he warrant being ranked higher as well?

Higher than what? I don't hear a lot of Peyton Hillis dynasty talk, so I really have no feel for what the general consensus on him is right now.

I get the impression he is viewed as a 20 to 30's ranked guy. I don't think he's elite dynasty level, but 3 or 4 years of top 6 performance would be enough for me to rank in the low teens. Curious what you, EBF, and F&L thought?

If you think he'll give you 4 years of top 6 performance he should be in your top 6.

I've said before that if I was very sure Hillis was going to hold on to the Browns' starting job, he'd be a no-brainer lock in my top 12. As it stands, I'm only reasonably sure, so he sits at 16th. I'm a little bit worried about his health (there's no real injury history, but he runs with a level of malice that calls to mind Earl Campbell), and I'm a little bit worried about Hardesty or other competition, but I feel reasonably confident that Hillis will manage to hold on to the job as long as he's healthy (and every week, that confidence level rises). And it really doesn't get the respect it deserves because the Browns have been so bad for so long, but the Cleveland RB situation is easily one of the best in the league. Cleveland's offensive line is ABSURDLY good at run blocking. Which isn't to call Hillis a system back or anything- kid's got plenty of skills- it's just to say that Cleveland RB is a golden situation well worth trying hard to buy into.

 

[Sabertooth]

Seyi Aijaratutu? What are his dynasty prospects? He appears to be a nice potential player in the future. You can't argue his success so far. He's come further than most undrafted free agents.

 

[BuckeyeArt]

What is the current value of Gates? If you were out of the playoff hunt this year, what TE would you trade him for straight up? How about if you were in the playoff hunt. What TEs would you give up to acquire him? Is he even worth acquiring for a playoff run with him being hobbled right now? It seems to me that he may have one more year of great production, probably more on the level of last year versus this year. After that, i could see him retiring or his production falling to the Atlanta Gonzalez level.

Using SSOG's current rankings, which would take / give for gates?

If I were rebuilding, I'd probably take Finley or Davis straight up. I'd take Miller, Keller, Hernandez, or Gresham with something added.I'd agree that next year you're likely returning to production equal to the last few years rather than this year. But, that's still top 3 production. The question is really how many more years he plays. After this last injury, he brought up the phrase "career coming to an end". That's a little scary if you are acquiring.

 

[mcintyre1]

Let's talk WR's to stash at the end of the bench!

In no particular order:

Eric Decker - I'm definitely stashing this guy in leagues where I'm rebuilding and looking for waiver steals. I think he's got great potential to be a consistent producer for Denver, but it may take awhile.

Jacoby Jones - Never been a Jones fan. He just never seemed like he would be able to be a consistent producer in my mind. Hard to explain why.

Seyi Ajirotutu - I still know nothing about this guy. My impression is that he could be a Malcolm Floyd type-- could put up big numbers given the proper situation, but not talented enough to create his own production.

Emmanuel Sanders - I love this kid. I'm a Steeler homer, obviously, but this guy is flying way under everyone's radar. He's got great speed, and he seems really willing to learn from Ward and others on that team. Definite stash.

Golden Tate - I'm a bit "meh" on him, but a lot of that has to do with my hate for Notre Dame. I'll admit to being ignorant on him in general. Haven't seen him play much.

Deon Butler - I really like Deon Butler. Sure, he's really small, but so is Desean. Not that I consider them equally talented, but I could see Butler growing into a Desean light if they decide to trust use him more on deep routes. I'd say he's a stash.

Amendola - I almost only play in PPR leagues, so this guy is money. Non PPR... eh. He's never going to be a consistent TD scorer. If you're in a PPR league, I'd absolutely trade an early 2nd for him, but that probably wouldn't be enough to pry him away from owners that feel he is Wes Welker 2.0 in the making.

Jacoby Ford - I've always liked this kid. He's got amazing deep speed, and I always thought he was underrated as a natural pass catcher. He was a handful for Nebraska's DBs in our bowl game a couple years ago, and I've had an interest in him ever since. I think he's a top notch stash for the future. He's got the legitimate physical talents to be one of the most dynamic players in the league. Unfortunately he's hamstrung by playing on the Raiders, but the Raiders as a whole are beginning to look much better.

Riley Cooper - I'm not sure on this one. I feel like a hypocrite when I say this, as he's a similar player to Eric Decker, who I like. I guess it comes down to opportunity. I view Lloyd/Gaffney/Royal as less of a wall to break through than Jackson/Maclin for playing time. But in the end, who really knows? I haven't rostered this guy in any of my leagues.

Jordy Nelson - I'm convinced that Driver will be replaced by James Jones, with Nelson as a perpetual #3 receiver. He seems like the type that needs better opportunity than that to have FF value.

^|

My thoughts

A couple of additions:

Mike Hart RB: I really like what I've seen from this guy. He's no world beater, but at this point I think he looks like a more likely Addai replacement than Brown is, and he can be had for pennies. Why not take the shot if you've got the roster space?

Mike Williams SEA WR: Yeah, not exactly an end of the roster type, but I really like this guy now. Yeah, he's had major maturity issues in the past, he's not particularly fast, and he's still a little out of shape. But ###### are those some beautiful hands. I've seen him make some amazing catches, and I like it. He's only 26 and he really, really, really wants to play in this league. I forget the exact quote, but I remember hearing something like "I've told the young guys, you have to work, work, work. I've made my mistakes and I've been out of this league. I don't ever want to experience that again." That's enough to make me a believer in the guy. Get him if you can get him cheap.

 

[Tau837]

Seyi Aijaratutu? What are his dynasty prospects? He appears to be a nice potential player in the future. You can't argue his success so far. He's come further than most undrafted free agents.

I posted on this earlier in this and other threads. He could be in line for a nice opportunity upgrade next year:Gates - aging, has been affected by injuries in recent seasonsJackson - UFA, likely goneFloyd - UFA, may be goneNaanee - free agent, not sure if UFA or RFA, may be goneDavis - one more year on his contract, but has been a bust and could be releasedSproles - UFA, may be goneThose were the top 6 targets in the Chargers' passing offense entering the season, and many of them other than Gates could be gone, so there could be a big opportunity in a great passing offense with Rivers.It may be that there is not much of a market for Floyd at 30 and with an injury history, Naanee with no real track record, and/or Sproles, with lackluster performance the past couple of seasons, so they could all be back... but that is up in the air at this point.Ajiro is a prototypical Chargers WR at 6'3", so it may very well be that the Chargers like what they see in him and decide to let one or more of those guys above walk so they can elevate the younger and cheaper Ajiro in the pecking order.I'd love to hear more people comment on his talent. From what I've seen, he has looked good. But I have only seen him in very limited action.In the meantime, he's stashed on the end of my bench until next season.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

The first point was that it's silly to suggest that Vick is "old". The second point is that Vick is an underrated passer and it's silly to suggest that he could never be an effective passer. I'm sure plenty of people would have once said Randall Cunningham could never develop into an adequate passer, too... right up until he dropped a 3700/34 on them.

If Vick ever had 560 pass attempts, I'm sure he'd have some 3500+ seasons, too. Unfortunately for Vick, he's only once attempted more than 400 passes in his career- a whopping 420 passing attempts way back in 2002. I just think a lot of people are confusing "has never been asked to pass" with "can't pass". Historically, Michael Vick has been as effective of a passer as an Eli Manning or a Randall Cunningham.

I'm not "failing to realize" that Manning has made a marked improvement. That was the point I was making. Eli Manning made a marked improvement after 5 years in the league. Eli played 5 years without ever topping 7 ypa, and then suddenly his ypa jumped to 7.9. Why can't Michael Vick, who has essentially been as effective to date as Manning has, also improve? Eli Manning didn't "make the jump" until he was 28 years old. Michael Vick was serving the second year of his suspension at age 28. He might have made the exact same jump as Eli did had he remained in the league. Hell, it's possible that he *HAS* made the same jump as Eli has. We're essentially judging Michael Vick the passer based on what he did 4 years ago, as a 26 year old in 2006. How about we at least give him a couple of games to see how good of a passer he really is before declaring him a hopelessly impossible passer? Everyone is being awfully quick to bury a guy who has attempted 27 passes in the last 4 years.

Yes, it's self-serving and egotistical and possibly the slightest bit obnoxious, and pointing out individual correct outcomes really deviates from my whole process vs. outcome mentality... but after all the crap I have to hear when it turns out I was wrong on a player, this trio of posts from back in September gets a well-deserved bump.I also suspect that the Vick and Orton rankings which raised a few eyebrows a couple of weeks ago are probably going down a little bit smoother this week. We now return you to your regularly scheduled rankings bashing.

I'll eat a little crow on this one, as Vick has looked simply amazing both as a runner AND a passer. He has looked phenomonal -but just to pull back the reigns a little, Indy has been the only good pass defense that he has faced (and they are a terrible run defense) and Vick's passing numbers in that game were mediocre (218 yds, 1 TD) - but he did play well and won the game. People will now start over-reacting to Monday Night's game a little though, and admittedly it was one of the greatest QB performances of all time. It was simply unbelievable. I just think things have a way of evening out a little as the season goes on and that is not the norm. I'm not sure if there is a better fantasy option for this season going forward than Vick, but....Vick's starts and the opposition's ranking against the pass and the run:Washington (31st - and that was before Monday Night's game as well, 25th)Jacksonville (29th, 21st)Indianapolis (10th, 29th) Detroit (17th, 26th)Green Bay - was a top defense in 2009 and since it was week 1, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt -- although they were not prepared to face Vick that week of course.With all that said, I think Vick needs to be (at worst) a top 10 dynasty QB moving forward - you can't ignore what he has done so far and the Eagles will HAVE to bring him back next year unless he totally collapses (and that isn't happening). I still think Eli is a better pure passer and that Vick will eventually slow down as a runner, but there's no way that I wouldn't trade Eli for Vick if that offer was on the table. So I concede that point to you for sure.Now I'll sit and wait for you to bump your McNabb v. Eli quotes. Just busting of course without your insights overall this thread wouldn't be worth half of what it is.

 

[mcintyre1]

Another guy I forgot about:

Donnie Avery WR STL: He's hit the injury bug his first two seasons, and he's hasn't even shown that much in the time that he was healthy, but I view Sam Bradford as a potential Peyton Manning type, so any guy who might become his #1 receiver is worth a stash in my book. In leagues with small rosters and no IR, he's probably already been dropped. Stash him.

 

[WFR]

Another guy I forgot aboutonnie Avery WR STL: He's hit the injury bug his first two seasons, and he's hasn't even shown that much in the time that he was healthy, but I view Sam Bradford as a potential Peyton Manning type, so any guy who might become his #1 receiver is worth a stash in my book. In leagues with small rosters and no IR, he's probably already been dropped. Stash him.

Thanks mcintyre1!Very insightful.I'm jsut looking to cut some dead weight that hasn't produced adn grab some players with upside for next year and beyond.Sanders is on my bench now. Still debating on one or two others to stash.

 

[Fear & Loathing]

Does Fear and Loathing have any updated rankings lately? I know he posts on rotoworld but I mainly just see the rankings from the beginning of the season

If you purchase Rotoworld's season pass, his rankings are available as part of their weekly content. New rankings come out every Thursday.

This is true. I also threw out updated rankings on Twitter 1.5 weeks ago on a Saturday night.You would have to scroll through my Twitter page to find all of them, but they start right here. I'd probably have Vick at No. 6 now.

 

[Concept Coop]

Another guy I forgot aboutonnie Avery WR STL: He's hit the injury bug his first two seasons, and he's hasn't even shown that much in the time that he was healthy, but I view Sam Bradford as a potential Peyton Manning type, so any guy who might become his #1 receiver is worth a stash in my book. In leagues with small rosters and no IR, he's probably already been dropped. Stash him.

Gold.This is the stuff that makes this thread so valuable. I wasn't really thinking about Avery, but will now. I think he is a lottery ticket, and don't know that he will ever be a #1. But he is worth a risk, because if he is, and Bradford is as special as he looks, Avery could be really valuable in a year or two.

 

[Steed]

Interesting comment today by F&L over at Rotoworld's midseason mock article:

20. PEYTON HILLIS: I'll take steroid-boy Hillis over S-Jax because he catches passes, scores TDs and is now matchup-proof. (CW)

Frogive me if it was tongue-in-cheek

 

[Fear & Loathing]

Interesting comment today by F&L over at Rotoworld's midseason mock article:

20. PEYTON HILLIS: I'll take steroid-boy Hillis over S-Jax because he catches passes, scores TDs and is now matchup-proof. (CW)

Frogive me if it was tongue-in-cheek

Yes, it was tongue-in-cheek.

 

[DexterDew]

i'd be curious to find out the Shark Pool's opinion on Troy Smith. I think he is in a great situation in SF with the talent he has around him (Crabtree, Davis and Gore). He is on the WW right now, and I don't "need" another QB, but might be worth a roster stash and become trade bait or spot starter.

With the state of starting QBs in the NFL right now, he could be Top 20 for the next few years... I would rather have him in Dynasty than McCoy, Clauson, Tebow and other developemental players.

thoughts?

 

[SSOG]

I'll eat a little crow on this one, as Vick has looked simply amazing both as a runner AND a passer. He has looked phenomonal -but just to pull back the reigns a little, Indy has been the only good pass defense that he has faced (and they are a terrible run defense) and Vick's passing numbers in that game were mediocre (218 yds, 1 TD) - but he did play well and won the game.

People will now start over-reacting to Monday Night's game a little though, and admittedly it was one of the greatest QB performances of all time. It was simply unbelievable. I just think things have a way of evening out a little as the season goes on and that is not the norm. I'm not sure if there is a better fantasy option for this season going forward than Vick, but....

Vick's starts and the opposition's ranking against the pass and the run:

Washington (31st - and that was before Monday Night's game as well, 25th)

Jacksonville (29th, 21st)

Indianapolis (10th, 29th)

Detroit (17th, 26th)

Green Bay - was a top defense in 2009 and since it was week 1, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt -- although they were not prepared to face Vick that week of course.

With all that said, I think Vick needs to be (at worst) a top 10 dynasty QB moving forward - you can't ignore what he has done so far and the Eagles will HAVE to bring him back next year unless he totally collapses (and that isn't happening). I still think Eli is a better pure passer and that Vick will eventually slow down as a runner, but there's no way that I wouldn't trade Eli for Vick if that offer was on the table. So I concede that point to you for sure.

Now I'll sit and wait for you to bump your McNabb v. Eli quotes. Just busting of course without your insights overall this thread wouldn't be worth half of what it is.

Many of the guys at Football Outsiders were riding the "he hasn't played anybody!" train earlier in the season, too, but they recently went back and looked at his SoS again. They actually spent several paragraphs on Vick here, but here's the relevant part:

But wait, there's more... Look at the quarterback stats page again. Look at Vick's non-adjusted VOA rating. That's right: Vick has a higher DVOA than VOA, which means that by our accounting, he is playing an above-average schedule of pass defenses. Green Bay, the first team he had success against, is the top-rated pass defense in the league by our numbers. Detroit has actually improved its pass defense significantly over last season and ranks 13th in DVOA. Indianapolis ranks fifth. Jacksonville, of course, still sucks.

Really, though, at the end of the day, the problem with Michael Vick is that nobody was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. They were 100% certain he was a bad passer, despite the fact that they hadn't seen him pass for 4 years, and despite the fact that the last time he threw a pass he was 26 years old and doubtless still improving (QBs generally don't peak until 28-30 or so), and despite the fact that he hasn't had a decent coaching staff since 2002 under Dan Reeves... and he actually put up very good passing numbers back in 2002 (7 ypa and a 2:1 TD:INT ratio as a second year player).People in fantasy football tend to have too much of a "what have you done for me lately" mindset. They were far too quick to write off Darren McFadden (who, as I loved pointing out in the offseason, entered the year with fewer career carries than Knowshon Moreno and a higher career YPC). They were too quick to write off Mike Vick and Drew Brees and Roddy White and Sidney Rice and on and on and on. Going into next year, I'm sure everyone's going to be too quick to write off Michael Crabtree for not being a dominant force at age 23. During the offseason, I'm thinking of taking a look at typical NFL development curves to try to identify roughly when we can expect players to be finished products. It's certainly much later than everyone thinks.

 

[I was in the pool]

People in fantasy football tend to have too much of a "what have you done for me lately" mindset. They were far too quick to write off Darren McFadden (who, as I loved pointing out in the offseason, entered the year with fewer career carries than Knowshon Moreno and a higher career YPC). They were too quick to write off Mike Vick and Drew Brees and Roddy White and Sidney Rice and on and on and on. Going into next year, I'm sure everyone's going to be too quick to write off Michael Crabtree for not being a dominant force at age 23. During the offseason, I'm thinking of taking a look at typical NFL development curves to try to identify roughly when we can expect players to be finished products. It's certainly much later than everyone thinks.

You mentioned Crabtree. Who are other guys that many are "writing off" as the 2010 season goes along that might be wise to trade for now in prep for 2011 in keeper/auction/dynasty leagues?I was thinking Crabtree, along with Dem.Thomas, Moreno, Golden Tate, Ryan Mathews and Jordan Shipley... Thoughts?

 

[SSOG]

By the way, work is continuing apace on our Cross-Positional Values (CPV). First, we've created our own VBD analog (it's based on production, but instead of being production above a certain arbitrary baseline, it's production adjusted for how likely you are to benefit from it- for instance, we have used historical start/sit data to find out that QB8 might get started X% of the time while QB12 gets started Y% of the time, so we adjust each player's scores accordingly). Then we've gone back and looked at 5-year averages at each position (the #1 RB scored XXX value points, the #2 RB scored YYY value points, and so on down the line). A 5-year span was chosen because true studs should easily be able to maintain production over a 5-year window, and then it's a sliding scale on down of 1 year wonders and guys who were consistently mediocre over the full 5-year span. Finally, we're working on some curve-fitting- messing with some formulas that allow us to smooth out all of the bumps and edges in the data so it's a nice smooth logarithmic value curve. Last but not least, we're going to set it up so that the values respond to tiering- players within a tier are valued more closely, with larger gaps at the tier breaks. Once that's all done, all I'll have to do is do my standard rankings, carefully assign my tiers, and voila... every single player will have an automatically generated value score that should be fully comparable across positions. Of course, then we'll need to take a mathematical look at the waiver wire and try to find the value of roster spots so that we can start using CPV to calculate trade values in many-for-few trades (because the initial version will really only work if both parties are receiving an equal number of quality, non-junk pieces).

So, anyway, with that huge explanation aside, I could use some help from you guys. We're currently at the curve fitting stage, and we could use some outside opinions on trade values. If you guys could answer the following questions, it would really help us out. The names in parentheses are the guys who currently occupy that spot in my rankings, but if your rankings differ, use the guy who you would rank at that position- remember, we're trying to get GENERAL positional values, not debate the values of one individual player.

Question #1:

QB#1 (Aaron Rodgers) is worth QB#4 (Peyton Manning) + QB#???

Question #2:

RB#1 (Adrian Peterson) is worth RB#6 (Rashard Mendenhall) + RB#???

Question #3:

WR#1 (Larry Fitzgerald) is worth WR#6 (Hakeem Nicks) + WR#???

Question #4:

TE#1 (Jermichael Finley) is worth TE#4 (Jason Witten) + TE#???

If anyone has any other equivalent values (i.e. "QB#3 = QB#5 + QB#18", or whatever), feel free to share them. The more data we get, the more accurate we can make our values going forward.

Thanks in advance to everyone who helps out.

 

[SSOG]

People in fantasy football tend to have too much of a "what have you done for me lately" mindset. They were far too quick to write off Darren McFadden (who, as I loved pointing out in the offseason, entered the year with fewer career carries than Knowshon Moreno and a higher career YPC). They were too quick to write off Mike Vick and Drew Brees and Roddy White and Sidney Rice and on and on and on. Going into next year, I'm sure everyone's going to be too quick to write off Michael Crabtree for not being a dominant force at age 23. During the offseason, I'm thinking of taking a look at typical NFL development curves to try to identify roughly when we can expect players to be finished products. It's certainly much later than everyone thinks.

You mentioned Crabtree. Who are other guys that many are "writing off" as the 2010 season goes along that might be wise to trade for now in prep for 2011 in keeper/auction/dynasty leagues?I was thinking Crabtree, along with Dem.Thomas, Moreno, Golden Tate, Ryan Mathews and Jordan Shipley... Thoughts?

I'd be interested in price checking Donald Brown. I'm not super-enthused about him (especially about his penchant for getting Manning killed in pass protection), but he's pretty much the poster child for pedigreed player who could easily still be developing. Stafford, Henne, Kolb, and Sanchez might be good cheap QB targets. At WR, I like Demaryius, Royal, MSW, both Tates (Brandon and Golden), and Benn. At RB, you've got Stewart, Mathews, Best, Wells, Spiller, Greene, Lynch, Hardesty, and Green-Ellis. Felix fits the profile, too, and despite my reputation as a Felix hater, I would pick him up if the price was right (I just doubt the price would ever be right). At TE, Moeaki, Carlson, and Greg Olsen.Now, I'm not saying acquire these guys at all costs. Most of those names are guys who I'd be looking to acquire as a throw-in, or perhaps burning a rookie 2nd on, tops. They're guys whose owners MIGHT be getting impatient or writing them off prematurely... but then again, it's equally possible that the owner is being patient and the asking price for those guys hasn't fallen any over the last 6 months to year and a half. I guarantee you one thing, though- there are a *LOT* of future studs on that list.

 

[I was in the pool]

I'd be interested in price checking Donald Brown. I'm not super-enthused about him (especially about his penchant for getting Manning killed in pass protection), but he's pretty much the poster child for pedigreed player who could easily still be developing. Stafford, Henne, Kolb, and Sanchez might be good cheap QB targets. At WR, I like Demaryius, Royal, MSW, both Tates (Brandon and Golden), and Benn. At RB, you've got Stewart, Mathews, Best, Wells, Spiller, Greene, Lynch, Hardesty, and Green-Ellis. Felix fits the profile, too, and despite my reputation as a Felix hater, I would pick him up if the price was right (I just doubt the price would ever be right). At TE, Moeaki, Carlson, and Greg Olsen.Now, I'm not saying acquire these guys at all costs. Most of those names are guys who I'd be looking to acquire as a throw-in, or perhaps burning a rookie 2nd on, tops. They're guys whose owners MIGHT be getting impatient or writing them off prematurely... but then again, it's equally possible that the owner is being patient and the asking price for those guys hasn't fallen any over the last 6 months to year and a half. I guarantee you one thing, though- there are a *LOT* of future studs on that list.

Thanks for the list - An owner actually dropped C.Wells last week, so I have been trying to value him for the bidding (hard $200 cap) tonight based on what he might be a good value as a keeper for 2011. He went for $25 in the auction this year. I think $15 (that puts him around RB24 in our league price-wise) would be a decent value.Carlson is a guy whose value can't get a whole lot lower perception-wise - he's still very young as well.Kolb is very good as well. Vick has only played 1 full season (2006), so even with Kolb as the "back-up" in 2011, he would probably get some time under center.