[Dynasty] Time to sell on Frank Gore (1 Viewer)

[OoOBaby]

Too many surgeries, too many injuries. If I can get top 5 RB value for Gore, I'd take it.

Which would be more surprising, Gore stays healthy this year, or Gore gets hurt and misses huge chunks of the season?

I'd vote for staying healthy being the bigger surprise.

He's had 1 full season in 6 years. He had 3+ surgeries before last year (both shoulders, and at least one knee?). The guy is held together with duc tape, and if I could get an elite RB or top 2-3 WR for him, I'd eat it up.

 

[Tick]

I thought about shopping Gore, but I can only come up with three guys I'd definitely rather have. After LT, LJ, and SJ, Gore is in a big batch of guys like Portis, Westbrook, Bush, etc. I could see moving up to get one of the top three, but not making a lateral move to any of the guys coming off a lesser season than Gore is.

 

[Fear & Loathing]

I thought about shopping Gore, but I can only come up with three guys I'd definitely rather have. After LT, LJ, and SJ, Gore is in a big batch of guys like Portis, Westbrook, Bush, etc. I could see moving up to get one of the top three, but not making a lateral move to any of the guys coming off a lesser season than Gore is.

I understand the reasons behind shopping Gore before his injury history creeps up again, but Tick is right. If you're dealing a top 5 dynasty talent at RB, who are you getting in return? The LT2, LJ & S-Jax owners aren't giving up what they have to roll the dice on a guy you believe is destined for a fall-off. If you're dealing a player of Gore's caliber, you have to get a difference maker at RB in return. After the top 3 and Bush, who inspires more confidence than Gore for the next couple of years? Exactly none of them. They all have questions, and anyone who saw Gore play last year would likely come to the conclusion that he has fewer questions than the passel beneath him.The problem isn't that you want to see what you can get for Gore while his value is sky high. The problem is that the mutually beneficial trade match-up is likely non-existent in Gore's case.

 

[Bob Magaw]

as to turner moving on, its not like the incoming OC is going to forget gore is a good football player... even if he gets 75-80% of what he got last year (not that i'm predicting that), that is still massive production compared to most mortals...

gore's injury history is a gruesome one & i could see some getting cold feet... OTOH, think of how tough & resilient he must be to have the kind of season he had AFTER double shoulder surgery... and despite knee surgeries, they haven't slowed him down much, so he has shown the ability to bounce back with a VENGEANCE... no doubt, another season or two of down time due to blown ACLs would be a bummer, no matter how strongly he comes back...

the flip side of him getting injured & the fact that offloading risk looks attractive, is that he doesn't get hurt next few years & starts upcoming season where he left off... i don't have him, but if i did i think i would be more worried about the latter risk than the former (trade him & he continues to blow up), & looking to keep him... it would take a lot to pry him away...

* BTW, in last 8 games he was pacing for a 2,000 rushing yards, 500 receiving yards, 60 receptions & 12 TD season... the team's defense should be better, & offense could be, too (as noted, smith a year more mature, & vernon davis if healthy could make more of an impact)... they have a pretty good, underrated OL...

 

[popeye]

Playing devil's advocate here.

Here are my reasons:

1. He's not durable - wasn't in college. Has been durable in the NFL. How many NFL games has he missed?

2. Norv Turner is gone - How did Emmitt and LT do after Turner left?

3. Like LT, as more weapons come aboard, Gore will get fewer opportunities. Unlike LT, he won't get 30 TDs to make up for it. - more weapons means less 8-9 man fronts. How can that be a bad thing? Especially in a defensive weak division.

4. He's at peak value right now - probably, since he had a season that few RBs will ever compare to. Overshadowed by LT2's season. Gore has led his "horrible" NFL team in rushing the last two years, and the 49ers have improved in wins (2, 4, 7) largely because of Gore. But Gore gets little respect for it.

Gore is a stud. Get used to it.

 

[Ariakis]

The pull-Gore-at-the-goalline experiment was over by the end of the year. Not to say they wouldn't try it again at some point, but I expect Gore to get a full season of GL carries next year assuming he's healthy and the 9ers don't bring in another big back.

...and one of the dying breed of "featured backs" left in the NFL. I'll keep him over any RBBC player. (Addai)

who is the other RB that will share carries with Addai?

They will draft or sign one. I don't see Addai ever being more than 225 carry back. He reminds me of JJ Arrington had he gone into a great situation to be honest. Still, situation matters and Addai is a top RB2 however he's not in the same league as Gore. That said, the number of injuries Gore has had comes close to his wonderlich score too.

 

[Ariakis]

I thought about shopping Gore, but I can only come up with three guys I'd definitely rather have. After LT, LJ, and SJ, Gore is in a big batch of guys like Portis, Westbrook, Bush, etc. I could see moving up to get one of the top three, but not making a lateral move to any of the guys coming off a lesser season than Gore is.

I understand the reasons behind shopping Gore before his injury history creeps up again, but Tick is right. If you're dealing a top 5 dynasty talent at RB, who are you getting in return? The LT2, LJ & S-Jax owners aren't giving up what they have to roll the dice on a guy you believe is destined for a fall-off. If you're dealing a player of Gore's caliber, you have to get a difference maker at RB in return. After the top 3 and Bush, who inspires more confidence than Gore for the next couple of years? Exactly none of them. They all have questions, and anyone who saw Gore play last year would likely come to the conclusion that he has fewer questions than the passel beneath him.The problem isn't that you want to see what you can get for Gore while his value is sky high. The problem is that the mutually beneficial trade match-up is likely non-existent in Gore's case.

In a redraft environment after the big 3 who would you take ahead of Gore? Sounds like you'd have him 4th.

 

[Fear & Loathing]

I thought about shopping Gore, but I can only come up with three guys I'd definitely rather have. After LT, LJ, and SJ, Gore is in a big batch of guys like Portis, Westbrook, Bush, etc. I could see moving up to get one of the top three, but not making a lateral move to any of the guys coming off a lesser season than Gore is.

I understand the reasons behind shopping Gore before his injury history creeps up again, but Tick is right. If you're dealing a top 5 dynasty talent at RB, who are you getting in return? The LT2, LJ & S-Jax owners aren't giving up what they have to roll the dice on a guy you believe is destined for a fall-off. If you're dealing a player of Gore's caliber, you have to get a difference maker at RB in return. After the top 3 and Bush, who inspires more confidence than Gore for the next couple of years? Exactly none of them. They all have questions, and anyone who saw Gore play last year would likely come to the conclusion that he has fewer questions than the passel beneath him.The problem isn't that you want to see what you can get for Gore while his value is sky high. The problem is that the mutually beneficial trade match-up is likely non-existent in Gore's case.

In a redraft environment after the big 3 who would you take ahead of Gore? Sounds like you'd have him 4th.

At least.

 

[kensat30]

the loss of Antonio Bryant could cripple our offense as well.

you're kidding, right ?

Name another legit deep threat on the roster. You must have a lot of confidence in Ashley Lelie. Vernon Davis has shown us so far that he can get open just fine, it's just catching the ball he has problems with.

 

[Buckna]

The time to sell Gore high was before Norv left.

 

[derek19]

the loss of Antonio Bryant could cripple our offense as well.

you're kidding, right ?

Name another legit deep threat on the roster. You must have a lot of confidence in Ashley Lelie. Vernon Davis has shown us so far that he can get open just fine, it's just catching the ball he has problems with.

Bryant is not a legit deep threat. I believe Lelie is more of a deep threat than bryant....

 

[Ron_Mexico]

the loss of Antonio Bryant could cripple our offense as well.

you're kidding, right ?

Name another legit deep threat on the roster. You must have a lot of confidence in Ashley Lelie. Vernon Davis has shown us so far that he can get open just fine, it's just catching the ball he has problems with.

Bryant is not a legit deep threat. I believe Lelie is more of a deep threat than bryant....

Bryant's contribution to 49ers last seasondoes not warrant a "crippling" of the offense with his absence.

 

[derek19]

the loss of Antonio Bryant could cripple our offense as well.

you're kidding, right ?

Name another legit deep threat on the roster. You must have a lot of confidence in Ashley Lelie. Vernon Davis has shown us so far that he can get open just fine, it's just catching the ball he has problems with.

Bryant is not a legit deep threat. I believe Lelie is more of a deep threat than bryant....

Bryant's contribution to 49ers last seasondoes not warrant a "crippling" of the offense with his absence.

Exactly...

 

[kensat30]

Bryant was 1/3 of the Niner's passing game last season.

#1 Bryant

#2 Battle

#3 Gore/Davis/Johnson

Maybe you missed Bryant's 18+ ypc average, and how most of his catches resulted in a 1st down. You honestly can't deny that Bryant was a big part of the Niner's O last season if you watched the full games.

My question to you guys, is who exactly is going to pickup Antonio Bryant's slack in 2007? Don't try to tell me that Lelie is just as good of a WR as Bryant, because that is a joke. Antonio Bryant is a head case and a loser, but he has legit football talent. Losing Antonio Bryant would means nothing if you replaced him with say a Darrell Jackson, but Lelie is just not the answer.

As of right now, Battle, Lelie, and Davis are our starting pass catchers going into the season. If anyone of them gets hurt, we are in trouble. If Lelie pulls a Lelie like I expect him to, we are in trouble. Hell, even by losing Norv Turner we may be in trouble. When I say that losing Bryant could cripple our offense, my point is that we are losing the strongest player out of our already weak passing offense without an adequate replacement. Many of the early mock drafts showed us going after a WR to fill that need by putting a rookie bandaid on an obvious weak point, just like Minnesota did with Williamson. That won't work, but Lelie won't work either.

And Gore, despite how good everyone thinks he is (including myself), can't score 10+ touchdowns next season if we get shut down before we can get across mid-field. The only saving grace is all the FA moves we've been making on defense. If the D steps up, then a decline in our passing game won't have as much of an impact on his stats. But I'm not gonna predict that the Niner's will have even an average defense going into the season. There are just too many holes to fix overnight.

 

[Ron_Mexico]

Bryant was 1/3 of the Niner's passing game last season.#1 Bryant#2 Battle#3 Gore/Davis/JohnsonMaybe you missed Bryant's 18+ ypc average, and how most of his catches resulted in a 1st down. You honestly can't deny that Bryant was a big part of the Niner's O last season if you watched the full games. My question to you guys, is who exactly is going to pickup Antonio Bryant's slack in 2007? Don't try to tell me that Lelie is just as good of a WR as Bryant, because that is a joke. Antonio Bryant is a head case and a loser, but he has legit football talent. Losing Antonio Bryant would means nothing if you replaced him with say a Darrell Jackson, but Lelie is just not the answer.As of right now, Battle, Lelie, and Davis are our starting pass catchers going into the season. If anyone of them gets hurt, we are in trouble. If Lelie pulls a Lelie like I expect him to, we are in trouble. Hell, even by losing Norv Turner we may be in trouble. When I say that losing Bryant could cripple our offense, my point is that we are losing the strongest player out of our already weak passing offense without an adequate replacement. Many of the early mock drafts showed us going after a WR to fill that need by putting a rookie bandaid on an obvious weak point, just like Minnesota did with Williamson. That won't work, but Lelie won't work either.And Gore, despite how good everyone thinks he is (including myself), can't score 10+ touchdowns next season if we get shut down before we can get across mid-field. The only saving grace is all the FA moves we've been making on defense. If the D steps up, then a decline in our passing game won't have as much of an impact on his stats. But I'm not gonna predict that the Niner's will have even an average defense going into the season. There are just too many holes to fix overnight.

It doesn't matter whether Bryant is the top WR for SF.The fact that he averaged 2 1/2 catches per gameis an indictment of the SF passing attack, or lack there of.2 1/2 catches per game.A big part of the niners offense last year ?uhhhhh, not really.

 

[Tick]

If this thread illustrates anything, it's that you should never assume anything about how other people value players. Just because a guy owns Gore doesn't mean he automatically thinks he's RB4. If you do think Gore is RB4, make an offer that would befit an RB10 and see what his owner says in response.

 

[Z-Dog]

Playing devil's advocate here.

Here are my reasons:

1. He's not durable - wasn't in college. Has been durable in the NFL. How many NFL games has he missed?

2. Norv Turner is gone - How did Emmitt and LT do after Turner left?

3. Like LT, as more weapons come aboard, Gore will get fewer opportunities. Unlike LT, he won't get 30 TDs to make up for it. - more weapons means less 8-9 man fronts. How can that be a bad thing? Especially in a defensive weak division.

4. He's at peak value right now - probably, since he had a season that few RBs will ever compare to. Overshadowed by LT2's season. Gore has led his "horrible" NFL team in rushing the last two years, and the 49ers have improved in wins (2, 4, 7) largely because of Gore. But Gore gets little respect for it.

Gore is a stud. Get used to it.

I agree that Gore is a terrific talent. I mean, imagine what he would have been without the injuries! But you can't play dynasty and win with only this insight. You have to maximize the value of your roster.In response to the specific points:

1. Why does it matter that Gore only tore up his knees in college? And he did plenty of damage to his shoulders in the NFL. From a dynasty perspective, I just don't expect Gore to last very long.

2. So you're ready to put Gore among the top five NFL RBs of all time. We should definitely talk trade.

3. When LT was the whole offense, he caught like 90 balls in addition to his rushes. He gets what, half that now? Sure, Gore's efficiency may go up, but his number of touches will likely go down. I'm not saying he's going to fall out of the top 10, I'm just saying if you can get RB5 value for him, it's worth considering very seriously.

4. I think that Gore will be hyped throughout the summer, and there will be quite a few people who rank him RB4-6.

If this thread illustrates anything, it's that you should never assume anything about how other people value players. Just because a guy owns Gore doesn't mean he automatically thinks he's RB4. If you do think Gore is RB4, make an offer that would befit an RB10 and see what his owner says in response.

Absolutely.

 

[Riffraff]

I mean, imagine what he would have been without the injuries! But you can't play dynasty and win with only this insight.

You make it sound like he died.

1. Why does it matter that Gore only tore up his knees in college? And he did plenty of damage to his shoulders in the NFL. From a dynasty perspective, I just don't expect Gore to last very long.

2. So you're ready to put Gore among the top five NFL RBs of all time. We should definitely talk trade.

3. When LT was the whole offense, he caught like 90 balls in addition to his rushes. He gets what, half that now? Sure, Gore's efficiency may go up, but his number of touches will likely go down. I'm not saying he's going to fall out of the top 10, I'm just saying if you can get RB5 value for him, it's worth considering very seriously.

4. I think that Gore will be hyped throughout the summer, and there will be quite a few people who rank him RB4-6.

1. You didn't answer the question. How many games has he missed in the NFL due to injuries?2. You didn't answer the question. How did LT and Emmitt do after Turner left?

3. Nice backpedaling.

4. If he's not RB 4-6, who is? And where is Gore if he isn't the 4-6 RB? All players have question marks about them.

Remember, these were your hard-hitting top 4 reasons why Gore is a sell high. All easily refuted.

Please answer the first two rebuttal questions with facts and the next two with opinion (since they can't be justified with facts).

Heck, I'll help you with question #1. The answer is 0, nil, zero, nada games missed in the NFL due to injuries.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/...1/injuries.html

 

[toxicbees]

Lets see some of the positives:- One more year of experience for Alex Smith (check)- Mike Nolan is still the head coach (check)- A potentially scary defense that will keep the offense on the field more (check)- Offensive line is intact (check)- Vernon Davis is healthy and Gore had his biggest rushing games when Vernon was playing (check)- New OC will keep the same offense, meaning Gore will stay the focus (check)Yet still people are undervaluing him. So just hold onto him if you own him. People are too caught up in the loss of Norv.

Damn, right. So what were the negatives? ACL injuries years ago? What else? Being compared to Lamont Jordan.Thanks, I'll keep Gore.

I actually almost put another check for the fact that he's one more year further removed from his ACL injury.

 

[Blue-Kun]

Bryant was 1/3 of the Niner's passing game last season.

#1 Bryant

#2 Battle

#3 Gore/Davis/Johnson

Maybe you missed Bryant's 18+ ypc average, and how most of his catches resulted in a 1st down. You honestly can't deny that Bryant was a big part of the Niner's O last season if you watched the full games.

My question to you guys, is who exactly is going to pickup Antonio Bryant's slack in 2007? Don't try to tell me that Lelie is just as good of a WR as Bryant, because that is a joke. Antonio Bryant is a head case and a loser, but he has legit football talent. Losing Antonio Bryant would means nothing if you replaced him with say a Darrell Jackson, but Lelie is just not the answer.

As of right now, Battle, Lelie, and Davis are our starting pass catchers going into the season. If anyone of them gets hurt, we are in trouble. If Lelie pulls a Lelie like I expect him to, we are in trouble. Hell, even by losing Norv Turner we may be in trouble. When I say that losing Bryant could cripple our offense, my point is that we are losing the strongest player out of our already weak passing offense without an adequate replacement. Many of the early mock drafts showed us going after a WR to fill that need by putting a rookie bandaid on an obvious weak point, just like Minnesota did with Williamson. That won't work, but Lelie won't work either.

Wait wait, you watched the Niners games last season, but you think Bryant actually significantly helped us? Que? He was relevant in a quarter of the games last season. In some games Bryant didn't even make attempts at catchable balls. Hell his catch percentage was 44% and he had 7 games where he didn't even break the 50 yard mark. As for his first downs, I honestly didn't see all that many. What I did find when I went to double checked actually surprised me. For 1st Down Catches on 3rd and >7 - Arnaz Battle has 5.

For 1st Down Catches on 3rd Down - Arnaz Battle has 19.

Arnaz Battle's First Down % to his targets is 42.4%

These are all top 20 in the NFC. Bryant didn't even make the top 20 list in any relevant first down category for the NFC. I don't even think he made any of the lists outside of yards per catch. So yeah, I mean the 18 yrds/catch thing is cool and all, but it'd of been nice if he could've caught a few more balls or come through on 3rd down.

 

[toxicbees]

Bryant was 1/3 of the Niner's passing game last season.

#1 Bryant

#2 Battle

#3 Gore/Davis/Johnson

Maybe you missed Bryant's 18+ ypc average, and how most of his catches resulted in a 1st down. You honestly can't deny that Bryant was a big part of the Niner's O last season if you watched the full games.

My question to you guys, is who exactly is going to pickup Antonio Bryant's slack in 2007? Don't try to tell me that Lelie is just as good of a WR as Bryant, because that is a joke. Antonio Bryant is a head case and a loser, but he has legit football talent. Losing Antonio Bryant would means nothing if you replaced him with say a Darrell Jackson, but Lelie is just not the answer.

As of right now, Battle, Lelie, and Davis are our starting pass catchers going into the season. If anyone of them gets hurt, we are in trouble. If Lelie pulls a Lelie like I expect him to, we are in trouble. Hell, even by losing Norv Turner we may be in trouble. When I say that losing Bryant could cripple our offense, my point is that we are losing the strongest player out of our already weak passing offense without an adequate replacement. Many of the early mock drafts showed us going after a WR to fill that need by putting a rookie bandaid on an obvious weak point, just like Minnesota did with Williamson. That won't work, but Lelie won't work either.

Wait wait, you watched the Niners games last season, but you think Bryant actually significantly helped us? Que? He was relevant in a quarter of the games last season. In some games Bryant didn't even make attempts at catchable balls. Hell his catch percentage was 44% and he had 7 games where he didn't even break the 50 yard mark. As for his first downs, I honestly didn't see all that many. What I did find when I went to double checked actually surprised me. For 1st Down Catches on 3rd and >7 - Arnaz Battle has 5.

For 1st Down Catches on 3rd Down - Arnaz Battle has 19.

Arnaz Battle's First Down % to his targets is 42.4%

These are all top 20 in the NFC. Bryant didn't even make the top 20 list in any relevant first down category for the NFC. I don't even think he made any of the lists outside of yards per catch. So yeah, I mean the 18 yrds/catch thing is cool and all, but it'd of been nice if he could've caught a few more balls or come through on 3rd down.

Not trying to make this a Bryant thread, but the guy really does suck. I mean he hasn't gotten any bites yet in the FA market. He's been dumped by three different teams in as many years.

 

[kensat30]

Antonio Bryant had something like 80% of his catches go for first downs last season. Like I already mentioned, his yards per catch average was over 18. The guy may have only made 2 or 3 catches a game, but those catches really counted. And how many more plays were the direct result of those catches? Dismiss his weak numbers, 40 catches, 700 something yards and a few TDs, but Alex Smith threw for less than 3,000 last year! That's a big chunk of production, and that chunk of production led to more opportunity for Frank Gore.

Again, what I don't see anyone addressing, who is going to step up and fill in that production? I hope you guys have Arnaz Battle on your sleeper list, because this guy is going to have to become Anquan Boldin and then some to make up for what they lost in Bryant. Lelie is not going to get it done.

I can't count the number of times our offense stalled and was shut down in between the 30s last year. Just because Frank Gore was a stud, doesn't mean that our offense was any good. You take a bad offense and make it worse by losing their best catcher, and maybe Frank Gore is not a stud anymore. Fact of the matter is, Bryant's 2 or 3 catches a game often got us into the opponent's territory or into scoring position.

PS - The guy isn't signed as a FA because he is a head case and a loser. He is suspended for 2 games in 2007 if he does sign somewhere. Idiot drove like 100 mph on the freeway at 1am in the morning while DUI. That doesn't take away from his football ability though. The guy caught for 1,000 in freaking Cleveland, he does have some talent.

BTW, in the 2 games Bryant was suspended at the end of last year, his replacements at WR managed a grand total of 4 catches for 38 yards.

 

[toxicbees]

Antonio Bryant had something like 80% of his catches go for first downs last season. Like I already mentioned, his yards per catch average was over 18. The guy may have only made 2 or 3 catches a game, but those catches really counted. And how many more plays were the direct result of those catches? Dismiss his weak numbers, 40 catches, 700 something yards and a few TDs, but Alex Smith threw for less than 3,000 last year! That's a big chunk of production, and that chunk of production led to more opportunity for Frank Gore.Again, what I don't see anyone addressing, who is going to step up and fill in that production? I hope you guys have Arnaz Battle on your sleeper list, because this guy is going to have to become Anquan Boldin and then some to make up for what they lost in Bryant. Lelie is not going to get it done.I can't count the number of times our offense stalled and was shut down in between the 30s last year. Just because Frank Gore was a stud, doesn't mean that our offense was any good. You take a bad offense and make it worse by losing their best catcher, and maybe Frank Gore is not a stud anymore. Fact of the matter is, Bryant's 2 or 3 catches a game often got us into the opponent's territory or into scoring position.

I think Lelie can fill Bryant's shoes and then some. During his breakout season he averaged 20 yards per catch, which is pretty damn amazing. In Denver he didn't think he was respected enough and staged a hold out. Denver traded him just before the season started to Atlanta, so he got off to a slow start because he missed all of training camp and didn't know the offense. Plus he's had two of the worst QBs in the NFL throwing to him Plummer and Vick.

 

[hacman]

I think Lelie can fill Bryant's shoes and then some. During his breakout season he averaged 20 yards per catch, which is pretty damn amazing. In Denver he didn't think he was respected enough and staged a hold out. Denver traded him just before the season started to Atlanta, so he got off to a slow start because he missed all of training camp and didn't know the offense. Plus he's had two of the worst QBs in the NFL throwing to him Plummer and Vick.

Bryant > LelieLelie is really going to disappoint Niner fans who think he is an upgrade over Bryant. I’m not expecting much from Lelie and I’m sure he will disappoint me at times with his drops. Bryant was a physical receiver who liked to block, and he should take a small portion of credit for Gore’s long runs last year. That is something Lelie should not be counted on doing. Unfortunately, Bryant is incapable of dealing with whatever demons that are running through his mind.Lelie was signed to a relatively cheap contract, so I can deal with him by looking at him as a piece of the puzzle. Like toxic says, he can be relied to stretch the field and he can make a good impact as a complementary receiver. This still leaves a hole at wr 1, though it must be said that you don’t need a strong number 1 receiver to win games in the NFL. The Niners need more quality depth at the position.Personally, I would like to see them draft a wide out for value in the 2nd and then come back with Lorenzo Booker with one of their third round picks. The team can use Booker in a Reggie Bush type role next year, while limiting wear-and-tear on Gore while masking the shortcomings they have at the wr position.