drummer
Footballguy
The original program anonyimized (sp) domestic citizens and their data/calls. They ripped that apart. It's clear they want every bit of info they can get. Do they need to know I signed up for FBG via my email?
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Edward Snowden poll (5/20/14): Hero or Traitor? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Nipsey
- Start date
Nipsey
Footballguy
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Here's Rosen, here and here:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/a-rare-peek-into-a-justice-department-leak-probe/2013/05/19/0bc473de-be5e-11e2-97d4-a479289a31f9_story.html?tid=pm_pop
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/05/20/justice-department-obtained-records-fox-news-journalist/
Here and here:
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/05/24/did-holder-mislead-congress-about-targeting-reporters-like-james-rosen/
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/05/20/justice-leak-probes-cause-chill/2343827/
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/may/20/obama-doj-james-rosen-criminality
http://www.npr.org/2013/12/15/251327122/in-press-rights-battle-reporter-says-accountability-s-at-risk
I think you can read, too much to really spell out for you.
I will see about the others, the Greenwald and Miranda story is where this Snowden thing lives so considering how much you've commented on it I'm surprised you aren't aware.
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AhrnCityPahnder
Yinz-o-riffic
timschochet
Footballguy
Why is it reasonable to think he would be assassinated? Can you give me an example of a whistle blower who was assassinated? (For that matter, can you give me an example of ANYONE since World War II who has been assassinated by our government?)
tom22406
Footballguy
Jayrok
Footballguy
drummer
Footballguy
Nipsey
Footballguy
I'm talking about your refusal to look at the facts of the NYT stuff. You ask for proof and when it's given it to you it's ignored and you ask for proof again. Stop posting and look at the proof you've been given.
drummer
Footballguy
Yeah, I know. But what's telling is that even before the internet blew up, they had a mechanism in place. Which was legal and constitutional. They had some good people in the NSA that were tossed under the bus. Just maddening.
msommer
Footballguy
Are Angela Merkels phone calls that important? Can they really destroy your country?
msommer
Footballguy
drummer
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
I can't do it at work, sorry. If all of that's true, then I can understand Snowden's reasoning for not going to the NYT. But I still don't agree with it. First off, the story they're talking about was printed a year later. Second, it's reasonable. in certain instances, for the NYT to be concerned with national security implications, but that is not the same as implying, as some have here, that they are in league with the government. If, for example the Times learned that there was an atomic bomb hidden in New York and the police needed time to discover it, it would be reasonable for the Times in that instance not to reveal the info to the public. But IMO Snowden's revelations don't reach anything close to that level. The Pentagon Papers were far more destructive in terms of national security, because we were still at war, and the White House strongly urged the Times not to publish them, but they went ahead and did it anyhow. Which leads me to conclude that if they did not in the case cited, there were other issues at play. But I WILL watch the video when I get a chance- hopefully tonight.
timschochet
Footballguy
I should have stated in this country, sorry. Obviously, we have targeted and killed people elsewhere.
timschochet
Footballguy
I'm not refusing. I can't open it. Do you have an article or transcript, perchance? Otherwise it has to wait until tonight.
Nipsey
Footballguy
Jayrok
Footballguy
I get what you're saying. I'd like to think it is less about exposing everyone and more about exposing transmissions that could lead to arrests and/or the prevention of terrorist acts. I wouldn't consider anyone on this board a target or person of interest (although some we can't be too sure), but if someone here started visiting Yemen on a regular basis and had ties with a group or two, I wouldn't have a problem with someone looking just a bit deeper into that travel simply to rule out any possibility that it could be for nefarious reasons.
But where to balance? I don't have an answer.
Jayrok
Footballguy
drummer
Footballguy
Nipsey
Footballguy
Just Google it. I'm not your internet secretary. Snowden specifically chose not to go to the Times because he was concerned they may not publish the story based on what they did with the story they had in 2004. That's a fact. It's not up for your interpretation. And again, the reason the Times did end up publishing a year later was because one of their own reporters threatened to put the story in a book.
Jayrok
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
This article seems to contradict the notion that the Times would have refused to publish Snowden:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/08/23/guardian_nyt_partnership_on_gchq_disclosures/
Faced with a mounting backlash from UK authorities, The Guardian newspaper has announced that it will collaborate with The New York Times to release further documents detailing the activities of the UK's Government Communications Headquarters.
"In a climate of intense pressure from the UK government, the Guardian decided to bring in a US partner to work on the GCHQ documents provided by Edward Snowden," the paper said in a statement on Friday. "We are working in partnership with the NYT and others to continue reporting these stories."
So in other words, the Guardian was so afraid of British authorities that they collaborated with the New York Times. Interesting that they find the Times a more trustworthy source than some Americans here do.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/08/23/guardian_nyt_partnership_on_gchq_disclosures/
Faced with a mounting backlash from UK authorities, The Guardian newspaper has announced that it will collaborate with The New York Times to release further documents detailing the activities of the UK's Government Communications Headquarters.
"In a climate of intense pressure from the UK government, the Guardian decided to bring in a US partner to work on the GCHQ documents provided by Edward Snowden," the paper said in a statement on Friday. "We are working in partnership with the NYT and others to continue reporting these stories."
So in other words, the Guardian was so afraid of British authorities that they collaborated with the New York Times. Interesting that they find the Times a more trustworthy source than some Americans here do.
timschochet
Footballguy
I am not questioning why Snowden chose not to go to the Times; I'll take your word for it. I'm questioning your assumption (along with others) that he was correct to make that choice.
Nipsey
Footballguy
Nipsey
Footballguy
drummer
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
I didn't really scramble much.
What I AM scrambling for is information that proves Nipsey's assertion that the NYT delayed the earlier story because it was intimidated by the White House. Perhaps the proof of that is on the video- if so, I will acknowledge it once I get the chance to see it. But I can't find any written evidence.
timschochet
Footballguy
Nipsey
Footballguy
tom22406
Footballguy
http://theblot.com/government-pressured-new-york-times-withhold-nsa-surveillance-story-7719495
Not sure how this could read as anything other than pressure being put on the NYT's.
drummer
Footballguy
http://www.wired.com/2014/05/snowden-cryptoparty/
It was December 11, 2012, and in a small art space behind a furniture store in Honolulu, NSA contractor Edward Snowden was working to subvert the machinery of global surveillance.
Snowden was not yet famous. His blockbuster leaks were still six months away, but the man destined to confront world leaders on a global stage was addressing a much smaller audience that Sunday evening. He was leading a local “Crypto Party,” teaching less than two dozen Hawaii residents how to encrypt their hard drives and use the internet anonymously.
“He introduced himself as Ed,” says technologist and writer Runa Sandvik, who co-presented with Snowden at the event, and spoke about the experience for the first time with WIRED. “We talked for a bit before everything started. And I remember asking where he worked or what he did, and he didn’t really want to tell.”
The grassroots crypto party movement began in 2011 with a Melbourne, Australia-based activist who goes by Asher Wolf. The idea was for technologists versed in software like Tor and PGP to get together with activists, journalists, and anyone else with a real-life need for those tools and show them the ropes. By the end of 2012, there’d been more than 1,000 such parties in countries around the world, by Wolf’s count. They were non-political and open to anyone.
“Don’t exclude anybody,” Wolf says. “Invite politicians. Invite people you wouldn’t necessarily expect. It was about being practical. By the end of the session, they should have Tor installed and be able to use OTR and PGP.”
The site of Edward Snowden's December, 2012 Crypto Party. Image: Google Street View
The site of Edward Snowden’s December, 2012 Crypto Party. Image: Google Street View
That Snowden organized such an event himself while still an NSA contract worker speaks volumes about his motives. Since the Snowden revelations began in June 2013, the whistleblower has been accused in editorial pages, and even the halls of Congress, of being a spy for China or Russia. A recent Wall Street Journal column argues that Snowden might have been working for the Russians and Chinese at the same time. “[O]nly a handful of the secrets had anything to do with domestic surveillance by the government and most were of primary value to an espionage operation.”
For the most part, these attacks have bounced harmlessly off Snowden, deflected by the Teflon of his well-managed public appearances and the self-evident risk and sacrifice he took on. One notable exception came last month, when Snowden submitted a video question to a televised town hall with Russian president Vladamir Putin; his question to Putin about Russia’s surveillance apparatus came across as a softball, and for a moment Snowden looked like a prop in Putin’s stage show.
But regardless of what you think of his actions, Snowden’s intentions are harder to doubt when you know that even before he leaked hundreds of thousands of documents to expose the surveillance world, he spent two hours calmly teaching 20 of his neighbors how to protect themselves from it. Even as he was thinking globally, he was acting locally. It’s like coming home to find the director of Greenpeace starting a mulch pit in your backyard.
The roots of Snowden’s crypto party were put down on November 18, 2012, when he sent an e-mail to Sandvik, a rising star in privacy circles, who was then a key developer on the anonymous web surfing software Tor.
Tor is free software that lets you go online anonymously. The software is used by a wide swath of people in need of extreme anonymity, including human rights groups, criminals, government agencies, and journalists. It works by accepting connections from the public internet, encrypting the traffic and bouncing it through a winding series of relays before dumping it back on the web through any of more than 1,000 exit nodes.
Most of those relays are run by volunteers, and the pre-leak Edward Snowden, it turns out, was one of them. (Through his lawyer, ACLU attorney Ben Wizner, Snowden declined to comment for this story).
In his e-mail, Snowden wrote that he personally ran one of the “major tor exits”–a 2 gbps server named “TheSignal”–and was trying to persuade some unnamed coworkers at his office to set up additional servers. He didn’t say where he worked. But he wanted to know if Sandvik could send him a stack of official Tor stickers. (In some post-leak photos of Snowden you can see the Tor sticker on the back of his laptop, next to the EFF sticker).
“He said he had been talking some of the more technical guys at work into setting up some additional fast servers, and figured some swag might incentivize them to do it sooner rather than later,” Sandvik says. “I later learned that he ran more than one Tor exit relay.”
Snowden used the address cincinnatus@lavabit.com — the same account he would use again less than two weeks later in his initial approach to journalist Glenn Greenwald. Snowden followed up by sending Sandvik his real name and street address in Hawaii, for the stickers.
Sandvik had never heard of Edward Snowden; at that point, nobody had. But she was already scheduled to be in Hawaii the next month for a vacation. She wrote Snowden back and offered to give a presentation about Tor to a local audience. Snowden was enthusiastic and offered to set up a crypto party for the occasion.
“I don’t think Hawaii has had a successful crypto party yet, so that could be a really good opportunity to get the community going,” he wrote.
In Melbourne, Wolf received an e-mail asking for advice on putting together the Oahu event. She offered some tips: Teach one tool at a time, keep it simple. “If I’d known it was someone from the NSA, I’d have gone and shot myself,” she says.
Snowden used the Cincinnatus name to organize the event, which he announced on the Crypto Party wiki, and through the Hi Capacity hacker collective, which hosted the gathering. Hi Capacity is a small hacker club that holds workshops on everything from the basics of soldering to using a 3D printer.
“I’ll start with a casual agenda, but slot in additional speakers as desired,” write Cincinnatus in the announcement. “If you’ve got something important to add to someone’s talk, please share it (politely). When we’re out of speakers, we’ll do ad-hoc tutorials on anything we can.”
When the day came, Sandvik found her own way to the venue: an art space on Oahu in the back of a furniture store called Fishcake. It was filled to its tiny capacity with a mostly male audience of about 20 attendees. Snowden spotted her when she walked in and introduced himself and his then-girlfriend, Lindsay Mills, who was filming the event. “He was just very nice, and he came to the door and introduced himself and talked about how the event was going to run,” Sandvik says.
They chatted for a bit. Sandvik asked Snowden where he worked, and after hemming and hawing, he finally said he worked for Dell. He didn’t let on that his work for Dell was under an NSA contract, but Sandvik could tell he was hiding something. “I got the sense that he didn’t like me prying too much, and he was happy to say Dell and move on,” she says.
Asher Wolf
Crypto Party founder Asher Wolf. Photo: Courtesy of Wolf
Sandvik began by giving her usual Tor presentation, then Snowden stood in front of the white board and gave a 30- to 40-minute introduction to TrueCrypt, an open-source full disk encryption tool. He walked through the steps to encrypt a hard drive or a USB stick. “Then we did an impromptu joint presentation on how to set up and run a Tor relay,” Sandvik says. “He was definitely a really, really smart guy. There was nothing about Tor that he didn’t already know.”
“Everything ran very smoothly,” she adds. “There were no questions about how to do things or where to put the chairs. Maybe he’s just really good at organizing events.”
At the end of the party, Sandvik said goodbye and returned to her Hawaii vacation. Snowden, in a follow-up post to the Crypto Party wiki, pronounced the event a “huge success.” “More people attended than expected, and we had a solid mix of age groups and genders.”
Sandvik, based in Washington, DC, didn’t think of the Dell worker again, until six months later on June 9, 2013, when the Guardian identified the source of its first two blockbuster NSA leaks. “It was pretty funny. Twitter was talking about ‘Edward Snowden,’” she says. “I click on a link to the Guardian and think, he looks really familiar.”
After Snowden revealed himself, Sandvik began quietly keeping tabs on his Tor relays, which went dark a month later. But she kept the story to herself. “I didn’t feel it was my story to tell, but it’s online and anyone can easily find out I was there,” she says. “I’ve been waiting for it to pop up.”
Surprisingly, she was never contacted by the FBI–who would probably not find her cooperative anyway. “That puzzled me a bit,” she says. “His girlfriend was filming it–the whole thing was on film. But the video was never put online, I’m told because the audio was bad.”
Last week Glenn Greenwald published his book on Snowden, No Place To Hide, which revealed the Cincinnatus nickname for the first time, leading me and others to the Oahu crypto party post. It turns out Snowden sent his first anonymous e-mail to Greenwald just 11 days before the party. At the time of the event, he was still waiting for Greenwald to reply.
“I kind of hope, secretly, that the crypto party offered Snowden an outlet to think about what he was already beginning to plan to do,” Wolf says.
“I’m kind of proud that he taught a group of people as well,” she says. “That’s huge. We relied on volunteers who often put themselves at risk to teach at places and situations that were uneasy for them. That was a huge risk for him to teach a crypto party while he was working for the NSA. I’m glad he did. What a ####### legend.”
It was December 11, 2012, and in a small art space behind a furniture store in Honolulu, NSA contractor Edward Snowden was working to subvert the machinery of global surveillance.
Snowden was not yet famous. His blockbuster leaks were still six months away, but the man destined to confront world leaders on a global stage was addressing a much smaller audience that Sunday evening. He was leading a local “Crypto Party,” teaching less than two dozen Hawaii residents how to encrypt their hard drives and use the internet anonymously.
“He introduced himself as Ed,” says technologist and writer Runa Sandvik, who co-presented with Snowden at the event, and spoke about the experience for the first time with WIRED. “We talked for a bit before everything started. And I remember asking where he worked or what he did, and he didn’t really want to tell.”
The grassroots crypto party movement began in 2011 with a Melbourne, Australia-based activist who goes by Asher Wolf. The idea was for technologists versed in software like Tor and PGP to get together with activists, journalists, and anyone else with a real-life need for those tools and show them the ropes. By the end of 2012, there’d been more than 1,000 such parties in countries around the world, by Wolf’s count. They were non-political and open to anyone.
“Don’t exclude anybody,” Wolf says. “Invite politicians. Invite people you wouldn’t necessarily expect. It was about being practical. By the end of the session, they should have Tor installed and be able to use OTR and PGP.”
The site of Edward Snowden's December, 2012 Crypto Party. Image: Google Street View
The site of Edward Snowden’s December, 2012 Crypto Party. Image: Google Street View
That Snowden organized such an event himself while still an NSA contract worker speaks volumes about his motives. Since the Snowden revelations began in June 2013, the whistleblower has been accused in editorial pages, and even the halls of Congress, of being a spy for China or Russia. A recent Wall Street Journal column argues that Snowden might have been working for the Russians and Chinese at the same time. “[O]nly a handful of the secrets had anything to do with domestic surveillance by the government and most were of primary value to an espionage operation.”
For the most part, these attacks have bounced harmlessly off Snowden, deflected by the Teflon of his well-managed public appearances and the self-evident risk and sacrifice he took on. One notable exception came last month, when Snowden submitted a video question to a televised town hall with Russian president Vladamir Putin; his question to Putin about Russia’s surveillance apparatus came across as a softball, and for a moment Snowden looked like a prop in Putin’s stage show.
But regardless of what you think of his actions, Snowden’s intentions are harder to doubt when you know that even before he leaked hundreds of thousands of documents to expose the surveillance world, he spent two hours calmly teaching 20 of his neighbors how to protect themselves from it. Even as he was thinking globally, he was acting locally. It’s like coming home to find the director of Greenpeace starting a mulch pit in your backyard.
The roots of Snowden’s crypto party were put down on November 18, 2012, when he sent an e-mail to Sandvik, a rising star in privacy circles, who was then a key developer on the anonymous web surfing software Tor.
Tor is free software that lets you go online anonymously. The software is used by a wide swath of people in need of extreme anonymity, including human rights groups, criminals, government agencies, and journalists. It works by accepting connections from the public internet, encrypting the traffic and bouncing it through a winding series of relays before dumping it back on the web through any of more than 1,000 exit nodes.
Most of those relays are run by volunteers, and the pre-leak Edward Snowden, it turns out, was one of them. (Through his lawyer, ACLU attorney Ben Wizner, Snowden declined to comment for this story).
In his e-mail, Snowden wrote that he personally ran one of the “major tor exits”–a 2 gbps server named “TheSignal”–and was trying to persuade some unnamed coworkers at his office to set up additional servers. He didn’t say where he worked. But he wanted to know if Sandvik could send him a stack of official Tor stickers. (In some post-leak photos of Snowden you can see the Tor sticker on the back of his laptop, next to the EFF sticker).
“He said he had been talking some of the more technical guys at work into setting up some additional fast servers, and figured some swag might incentivize them to do it sooner rather than later,” Sandvik says. “I later learned that he ran more than one Tor exit relay.”
Snowden used the address cincinnatus@lavabit.com — the same account he would use again less than two weeks later in his initial approach to journalist Glenn Greenwald. Snowden followed up by sending Sandvik his real name and street address in Hawaii, for the stickers.
Sandvik had never heard of Edward Snowden; at that point, nobody had. But she was already scheduled to be in Hawaii the next month for a vacation. She wrote Snowden back and offered to give a presentation about Tor to a local audience. Snowden was enthusiastic and offered to set up a crypto party for the occasion.
“I don’t think Hawaii has had a successful crypto party yet, so that could be a really good opportunity to get the community going,” he wrote.
In Melbourne, Wolf received an e-mail asking for advice on putting together the Oahu event. She offered some tips: Teach one tool at a time, keep it simple. “If I’d known it was someone from the NSA, I’d have gone and shot myself,” she says.
Snowden used the Cincinnatus name to organize the event, which he announced on the Crypto Party wiki, and through the Hi Capacity hacker collective, which hosted the gathering. Hi Capacity is a small hacker club that holds workshops on everything from the basics of soldering to using a 3D printer.
“I’ll start with a casual agenda, but slot in additional speakers as desired,” write Cincinnatus in the announcement. “If you’ve got something important to add to someone’s talk, please share it (politely). When we’re out of speakers, we’ll do ad-hoc tutorials on anything we can.”
When the day came, Sandvik found her own way to the venue: an art space on Oahu in the back of a furniture store called Fishcake. It was filled to its tiny capacity with a mostly male audience of about 20 attendees. Snowden spotted her when she walked in and introduced himself and his then-girlfriend, Lindsay Mills, who was filming the event. “He was just very nice, and he came to the door and introduced himself and talked about how the event was going to run,” Sandvik says.
They chatted for a bit. Sandvik asked Snowden where he worked, and after hemming and hawing, he finally said he worked for Dell. He didn’t let on that his work for Dell was under an NSA contract, but Sandvik could tell he was hiding something. “I got the sense that he didn’t like me prying too much, and he was happy to say Dell and move on,” she says.
Asher Wolf
Crypto Party founder Asher Wolf. Photo: Courtesy of Wolf
Sandvik began by giving her usual Tor presentation, then Snowden stood in front of the white board and gave a 30- to 40-minute introduction to TrueCrypt, an open-source full disk encryption tool. He walked through the steps to encrypt a hard drive or a USB stick. “Then we did an impromptu joint presentation on how to set up and run a Tor relay,” Sandvik says. “He was definitely a really, really smart guy. There was nothing about Tor that he didn’t already know.”
“Everything ran very smoothly,” she adds. “There were no questions about how to do things or where to put the chairs. Maybe he’s just really good at organizing events.”
At the end of the party, Sandvik said goodbye and returned to her Hawaii vacation. Snowden, in a follow-up post to the Crypto Party wiki, pronounced the event a “huge success.” “More people attended than expected, and we had a solid mix of age groups and genders.”
Sandvik, based in Washington, DC, didn’t think of the Dell worker again, until six months later on June 9, 2013, when the Guardian identified the source of its first two blockbuster NSA leaks. “It was pretty funny. Twitter was talking about ‘Edward Snowden,’” she says. “I click on a link to the Guardian and think, he looks really familiar.”
After Snowden revealed himself, Sandvik began quietly keeping tabs on his Tor relays, which went dark a month later. But she kept the story to herself. “I didn’t feel it was my story to tell, but it’s online and anyone can easily find out I was there,” she says. “I’ve been waiting for it to pop up.”
Surprisingly, she was never contacted by the FBI–who would probably not find her cooperative anyway. “That puzzled me a bit,” she says. “His girlfriend was filming it–the whole thing was on film. But the video was never put online, I’m told because the audio was bad.”
Last week Glenn Greenwald published his book on Snowden, No Place To Hide, which revealed the Cincinnatus nickname for the first time, leading me and others to the Oahu crypto party post. It turns out Snowden sent his first anonymous e-mail to Greenwald just 11 days before the party. At the time of the event, he was still waiting for Greenwald to reply.
“I kind of hope, secretly, that the crypto party offered Snowden an outlet to think about what he was already beginning to plan to do,” Wolf says.
“I’m kind of proud that he taught a group of people as well,” she says. “That’s huge. We relied on volunteers who often put themselves at risk to teach at places and situations that were uneasy for them. That was a huge risk for him to teach a crypto party while he was working for the NSA. I’m glad he did. What a ####### legend.”
timschochet
Footballguy
This will be my last post on the subject, until I watch that damn video. If Nipsey is right, I will come in here and apologize to him.
With regard to the subject matter of this thread: I don't like the choice being presented, as I don't view Snowden as either a hero or traitor. But he is definitely MORE of a hero than a traitor. In fact, the notion of Snowden as a traitor repels me. Whatever the effects of his revelations (and as I wrote, I think they are more positive than negative), his intent, much like Ellsberg, was one of patriotism. Should he be prosecuted? Yes, absolutely, because the law is the law and we can't allow the law to be broken. But based on what I know I would vote to acquit.
With regard to the subject matter of this thread: I don't like the choice being presented, as I don't view Snowden as either a hero or traitor. But he is definitely MORE of a hero than a traitor. In fact, the notion of Snowden as a traitor repels me. Whatever the effects of his revelations (and as I wrote, I think they are more positive than negative), his intent, much like Ellsberg, was one of patriotism. Should he be prosecuted? Yes, absolutely, because the law is the law and we can't allow the law to be broken. But based on what I know I would vote to acquit.
That's fair. I think if the programs are targeted and well governed, I could agree with you except maybe on the bolded.
I think the expansive scope on these programs not only harms privacy but probably makes it hard to do valuable analysis. I know it is often hard and assumption laden for us in the private sector to draw actionable conclusions from massive sets of data such as what Snowden describes. I'm sure storing all of the Skype conversations I have with my girlfriend when she visits China is not making the NSA's purported task easier.
Joe T
Footballguy
Nipsey already did. Several times.
You are too busy in the FFA typing away to watch it or as usual you don't want to see anything you disagree with.
Joe T
Footballguy
In the meantime, keep typing your point that no one has provided proof over and over again.
Joe T
Footballguy
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Tim, here's some info on Klayman and Judicial Watch:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/judge-nsas-collecting-of-phone-records-is-likely-unconstitutional/2013/12/16/6e098eda-6688-11e3-a0b9-249bbb34602c_story.html
It's not referred to here but Judge Leon's decision was referred to by Snowden thusly:
http://www.politico.com/story/2014/03/edward-snowden-pulitzer-prize-washington-post-guardian-nsa-104608.html#ixzz32TvWtUaM
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/12/16/justice/nsa-surveillance-court-ruling/
Here's the case, Pres. Obama is a named Defendant. Klayman won.
http://www.freedomwatchusa.org/pdf/130609-Verizon%20Complaint%20Class%20Action.pdf
So that was Klayman's/Judicial Watch's case and they claimed illegal, unconstitutional collection of metadata and harrassment and they won.
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SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
drummer
Footballguy
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
drummer
Footballguy
urbanhack
Fight The Power!
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
OK, I have managed to watch the part of the video that Nipsey was referring to.
Nipsey's interpretation was correct. Nipsey, I apologize. The evidence seems pretty clear that the White House caused the delay of the 2004 article for a year. It also appears that the main reason that the Times finally chose to report the story is because the main journalist threatened to write a book about it. And this appears the reason why Snowden did not go to the NYT. And it is, IMO, probably a pretty good reason.
This depresses me greatly. Not because I was wrong; I don't mind that. But because I sort of have (had) a romantic view of the New York Times, and it's extremely disappointing to me that they would allow the White House to intimidate them. That's why I didn't want to believe it. I KNOW that the editors of the Times in the 60s and 70s would never have allowed the White House to intimidate them. THOSE guys would have published the story immediately. What the Hell happened to those guys? What is wrong with our media- (the supposed media that conservatives are sure is liberal, that cringed before a Republican administration.) Why do we have to rely on foreign media for Snowden's story?
In any case, I was wrong, you were right, I apologize. ####.
Nipsey's interpretation was correct. Nipsey, I apologize. The evidence seems pretty clear that the White House caused the delay of the 2004 article for a year. It also appears that the main reason that the Times finally chose to report the story is because the main journalist threatened to write a book about it. And this appears the reason why Snowden did not go to the NYT. And it is, IMO, probably a pretty good reason.
This depresses me greatly. Not because I was wrong; I don't mind that. But because I sort of have (had) a romantic view of the New York Times, and it's extremely disappointing to me that they would allow the White House to intimidate them. That's why I didn't want to believe it. I KNOW that the editors of the Times in the 60s and 70s would never have allowed the White House to intimidate them. THOSE guys would have published the story immediately. What the Hell happened to those guys? What is wrong with our media- (the supposed media that conservatives are sure is liberal, that cringed before a Republican administration.) Why do we have to rely on foreign media for Snowden's story?
In any case, I was wrong, you were right, I apologize. ####.
The Commish
Footballguy
While I agree with you, this thread has set a different definition. My distrust towards the notion that had Snowden just told the gov't about what was going on that they'd open him with open arms is much less conspiracy theory-esque than what you outlined above.
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