Edward Snowden poll (5/20/14): Hero or Traitor? (1 Viewer)

[tom22406]

What in the actions of our government leads you to believe this is remotely true? Sure, it's easy to say, and something we would like to believe, but I don't see any evidence that it's the case.

Well I used to work there so there is that

"there" is where exactly? NSA?

You think there are tens of thousands of people conspiring against you? These are regular people with regular jobs and a regular chain of leadership and quality control and reporting of any form of abuse is constantly encouraged, just like anywhere else. He only threw crap like that in to add a little more color. Because leaking a bunch of Congressionally approved activities and running to Putin is a pretty ##### move on its own.

So what is your opinion of Thomas Drake and William Binney?

 

[JZilla]

What in the actions of our government leads you to believe this is remotely true? Sure, it's easy to say, and something we would like to believe, but I don't see any evidence that it's the case.

Well I used to work there so there is that

"there" is where exactly? NSA?

You think there are tens of thousands of people conspiring against you? These are regular people with regular jobs and a regular chain of leadership and quality control and reporting of any form of abuse is constantly encouraged, just like anywhere else. He only threw crap like that in to add a little more color. Because leaking a bunch of Congressionally approved activities and running to Putin is a pretty ##### move on its own.

So what is your opinion of Thomas Drake and William Binney?

Never met 'em

 

[Politician Spock]

What in the actions of our government leads you to believe this is remotely true? Sure, it's easy to say, and something we would like to believe, but I don't see any evidence that it's the case.

Well I used to work there so there is that

"there" is where exactly? NSA?

You think there are tens of thousands of people conspiring against you? These are regular people with regular jobs and a regular chain of leadership and quality control and reporting of any form of abuse is constantly encouraged, just like anywhere else. He only threw crap like that in to add a little more color. Because leaking a bunch of Congressionally approved activities and running to Putin is a pretty ##### move on its own.

Why does it have to be a conspiracy? Why can't the problem, assuming it exists, just be a systemic problem, and not some sinister plan?

 

[tom22406]

What in the actions of our government leads you to believe this is remotely true? Sure, it's easy to say, and something we would like to believe, but I don't see any evidence that it's the case.

Well I used to work there so there is that

"there" is where exactly? NSA?

You think there are tens of thousands of people conspiring against you? These are regular people with regular jobs and a regular chain of leadership and quality control and reporting of any form of abuse is constantly encouraged, just like anywhere else. He only threw crap like that in to add a little more color. Because leaking a bunch of Congressionally approved activities and running to Putin is a pretty ##### move on its own.

So what is your opinion of Thomas Drake and William Binney?

Never met 'em

So you met Snowden?

 

[Slapdash]

If Snowden is just leaking a bunch of activities approved by Congress, why did it take the Snowden leaks to find out the NSA's leaders were lying to Congress about the size and scope of its actions? Seems like Congress does not have the visibility into those actions and they don't approve of many.

What is happening to all these reports of abuse that went up the chain of command from regular people?

 

[StrikeS2k]

What in the actions of our government leads you to believe this is remotely true? Sure, it's easy to say, and something we would like to believe, but I don't see any evidence that it's the case.

Well I used to work there so there is that

"there" is where exactly? NSA?

You think there are tens of thousands of people conspiring against you? These are regular people with regular jobs and a regular chain of leadership and quality control and reporting of any form of abuse is constantly encouraged, just like anywhere else. He only threw crap like that in to add a little more color. Because leaking a bunch of Congressionally approved activities and running to Putin is a pretty ##### move on its own.

I'm pretty sure nothing you wrote here answers his question.

 

[JZilla]

What in the actions of our government leads you to believe this is remotely true? Sure, it's easy to say, and something we would like to believe, but I don't see any evidence that it's the case.

Well I used to work there so there is that

"there" is where exactly? NSA?

You think there are tens of thousands of people conspiring against you? These are regular people with regular jobs and a regular chain of leadership and quality control and reporting of any form of abuse is constantly encouraged, just like anywhere else. He only threw crap like that in to add a little more color. Because leaking a bunch of Congressionally approved activities and running to Putin is a pretty ##### move on its own.

Why does it have to be a conspiracy? Why can't the problem, assuming it exists, just be a systemic problem, and not some sinister plan?

Because I'm telling you the system includes controls to report improper activities. And they are addressed. Y ou can't just spy on your girlfriend. The Snowden case is only tangentially about those types of activities anyway.. the bulk of the leaks revolve around programs that were approved by Congress. So going back to the hairsplitting argument tim started in this particular chain of posts.. in my opinion Edward Snowden is not a whistleblower.

 

[The Commish]

What in the actions of our government leads you to believe this is remotely true? Sure, it's easy to say, and something we would like to believe, but I don't see any evidence that it's the case.

Well I used to work there so there is that

"there" is where exactly? NSA?

You think there are tens of thousands of people conspiring against you? These are regular people with regular jobs and a regular chain of leadership and quality control and reporting of any form of abuse is constantly encouraged, just like anywhere else. He only threw crap like that in to add a little more color. Because leaking a bunch of Congressionally approved activities and running to Putin is a pretty ##### move on its own.

WTF are you talking about? I was asking you where "there" was in reference to your response "Well I used to work there so there is that". I don't know if you're talking about the NSA, the "government"...where.

 

[Politician Spock]

Just because congress approves something doesn't mean it doesn't violate the constitution. There is no automatic judicial case opened up on everything congress approves. The only time what congress does is challenged in the judicial system is when someone files a case, and without evidence of one being harmed by what congress has approved, the judicial system doesn't have to accept the case.

Challenging the constitutionality of anything in the Patriot Act in court was pretty much impossible until Snowden provided evidence of how people were being harmed.

THAT is a systemic problem, not a conspiracy.

 

[JZilla]

If Snowden is just leaking a bunch of activities approved by Congress, why did it take the Snowden leaks to find out the NSA's leaders were lying to Congress about the size and scope of its actions? Seems like Congress does not have the visibility into those actions and they don't approve of many.

What is happening to all these reports of abuse that went up the chain of command from regular people?

Clearly those guys wanted as little to get out as possible, and they will lie through their teeth to protect it until they can't anymore. I don't give a damn about those guys, I'm sure they'd kill their mothers for another medal.

You're talking about the top executives at the NSA. I'm talking about the illegal activities by regular workers that were reported. And you know what, if the NSA has really now decided to let its people monitor whomever they want to (as many of you seem to assert)... why not just leak that and then you really are a whistleblower, and you can stay home!

Massive (much more massive) leaks of legal programs are what would have gotten him jailed, and why he ran.

And I'm not trying to put down an opinion on those programs - I left the DoD long ago and I'm never going back - but they were put in place to keep more of your buildings from getting blown up, and no one complained. And yes I know Bush and pals did a lot of misleading of the public regarding those acts, but it was all in there, and there were plenty of people in here raising hell about it (not me)

 

[tom22406]

If Snowden is just leaking a bunch of activities approved by Congress, why did it take the Snowden leaks to find out the NSA's leaders were lying to Congress about the size and scope of its actions? Seems like Congress does not have the visibility into those actions and they don't approve of many.

What is happening to all these reports of abuse that went up the chain of command from regular people?

but they were put in place to keep more of your buildings from getting blown up, and no one complained.

That is simply not true.Many complained but were told they were crazy at the time much like they are again now.

 

[JZilla]

WTF are you talking about? I was asking you where "there" was in reference to your response "Well I used to work there so there is that". I don't know if you're talking about the NSA, the "government"...where.

Yes the NSA. I thought that seemed obvious, so I continued to go after your implication that the whole government is out to get you.

 

[JZilla]

If Snowden is just leaking a bunch of activities approved by Congress, why did it take the Snowden leaks to find out the NSA's leaders were lying to Congress about the size and scope of its actions? Seems like Congress does not have the visibility into those actions and they don't approve of many.

What is happening to all these reports of abuse that went up the chain of command from regular people?

but they were put in place to keep more of your buildings from getting blown up, and no one complained.

That is simply not true.Many complained but were told they were crazy at the time much like they are again now.

You're right. That's not true. "Some" people complained. It was all out there.

 

[Politician Spock]

WTF are you talking about? I was asking you where "there" was in reference to your response "Well I used to work there so there is that". I don't know if you're talking about the NSA, the "government"...where.

Yes the NSA. I thought that seemed obvious, so I continued to go after your implication that the whole government is out to get you.

There's that strawman again.

 

[Slapdash]

If Snowden is just leaking a bunch of activities approved by Congress, why did it take the Snowden leaks to find out the NSA's leaders were lying to Congress about the size and scope of its actions? Seems like Congress does not have the visibility into those actions and they don't approve of many.

What is happening to all these reports of abuse that went up the chain of command from regular people?

Clearly those guys wanted as little to get out as possible, and they will lie through their teeth to protect it until they can't anymore. I don't give a damn about those guys, I'm sure they'd kill their mothers for another medal.

You're talking about the top executives at the NSA. I'm talking about the illegal activities by regular workers that were reported. And you know what, if the NSA has really now decided to let its people monitor whomever they want to (as many of you seem to assert)... why not just leak that and then you really are a whistleblower, and you can stay home!

Massive (much more massive) leaks of legal programs are what would have gotten him jailed, and why he ran.

And I'm not trying to put down an opinion on those programs - I left the DoD long ago and I'm never going back - but they were put in place to keep more of your buildings from getting blown up, and no one complained. And yes I know Bush and pals did a lot of misleading of the public regarding those acts, but it was all in there, and there were plenty of people in here raising hell about it (not me)

How do we know these programs are legal? They have not taken up by the Supreme Court because, without the Snowden leaks, nobody has standing to bring it there.

I think you are reading the criticisms of these programs very poorly here,

 

[JZilla]

Just because congress approves something doesn't mean it doesn't violate the constitution. There is no automatic judicial case opened up on everything congress approves. The only time what congress does is challenged in the judicial system is when someone files a case, and without evidence of one being harmed by what congress has approved, the judicial system doesn't have to accept the case.

Challenging the constitutionality of anything in the Patriot Act in court was pretty much impossible until Snowden provided evidence of how people were being harmed.

THAT is a systemic problem, not a conspiracy.

Snowden should have stuck around and stood up for himself. He didn't and I bet he regrets it.

I've stopped short of calling the guy a traitor because I know these programs are pretty ridiculous

But I do think the way he went about things was pretty stupid if he ever thought he might want to live in the US again. And the only reason I popped up in here and weighed now is because I saw he said that. What a goof.

 

[JZilla]

If Snowden is just leaking a bunch of activities approved by Congress, why did it take the Snowden leaks to find out the NSA's leaders were lying to Congress about the size and scope of its actions? Seems like Congress does not have the visibility into those actions and they don't approve of many.

What is happening to all these reports of abuse that went up the chain of command from regular people?

Clearly those guys wanted as little to get out as possible, and they will lie through their teeth to protect it until they can't anymore. I don't give a damn about those guys, I'm sure they'd kill their mothers for another medal.

You're talking about the top executives at the NSA. I'm talking about the illegal activities by regular workers that were reported. And you know what, if the NSA has really now decided to let its people monitor whomever they want to (as many of you seem to assert)... why not just leak that and then you really are a whistleblower, and you can stay home!

Massive (much more massive) leaks of legal programs are what would have gotten him jailed, and why he ran.

And I'm not trying to put down an opinion on those programs - I left the DoD long ago and I'm never going back - but they were put in place to keep more of your buildings from getting blown up, and no one complained. And yes I know Bush and pals did a lot of misleading of the public regarding those acts, but it was all in there, and there were plenty of people in here raising hell about it (not me)

How do we know these programs are legal? They have not taken up by the Supreme Court because, without the Snowden leaks, nobody has standing to bring it there.

I think you are reading the criticisms of these programs very poorly here,

If they're not legal, why run?

 

[Politician Spock]

Just because congress approves something doesn't mean it doesn't violate the constitution. There is no automatic judicial case opened up on everything congress approves. The only time what congress does is challenged in the judicial system is when someone files a case, and without evidence of one being harmed by what congress has approved, the judicial system doesn't have to accept the case.

Challenging the constitutionality of anything in the Patriot Act in court was pretty much impossible until Snowden provided evidence of how people were being harmed.

THAT is a systemic problem, not a conspiracy.

Snowden should have stuck around and stood up for himself. He didn't and I bet he regrets it.

I've stopped short of calling the guy a traitor because I know these programs are pretty ridiculous

But I do think the way he went about things was pretty stupid if he ever thought he might want to live in the US again. And the only reason I popped up in here and weighed now is because I saw he said that. What a goof.

Snowden is human, which by default makes him flawed. So if you want to go the ad hominem route in discussing the issue, I'm sure you'll find enough flaws about him to make you feel good about everything you type. But ad hominem arguing is a fallacy for a reason. Good luck with that.

 

[Slapdash]

If Snowden is just leaking a bunch of activities approved by Congress, why did it take the Snowden leaks to find out the NSA's leaders were lying to Congress about the size and scope of its actions? Seems like Congress does not have the visibility into those actions and they don't approve of many.

What is happening to all these reports of abuse that went up the chain of command from regular people?

Clearly those guys wanted as little to get out as possible, and they will lie through their teeth to protect it until they can't anymore. I don't give a damn about those guys, I'm sure they'd kill their mothers for another medal.

You're talking about the top executives at the NSA. I'm talking about the illegal activities by regular workers that were reported. And you know what, if the NSA has really now decided to let its people monitor whomever they want to (as many of you seem to assert)... why not just leak that and then you really are a whistleblower, and you can stay home!

Massive (much more massive) leaks of legal programs are what would have gotten him jailed, and why he ran.

And I'm not trying to put down an opinion on those programs - I left the DoD long ago and I'm never going back - but they were put in place to keep more of your buildings from getting blown up, and no one complained. And yes I know Bush and pals did a lot of misleading of the public regarding those acts, but it was all in there, and there were plenty of people in here raising hell about it (not me)

How do we know these programs are legal? They have not taken up by the Supreme Court because, without the Snowden leaks, nobody has standing to bring it there.

I think you are reading the criticisms of these programs very poorly here,

If they're not legal, why run?

Because this administration has shown it will go after leakers very aggressively both within and outside of the law. As another poster mentioned, in the case of Thomas Drake. I'm not going to fault a guy for not wanting to go to jail over his beliefs, if there is an alternative.

 

[JZilla]

If Snowden is just leaking a bunch of activities approved by Congress, why did it take the Snowden leaks to find out the NSA's leaders were lying to Congress about the size and scope of its actions? Seems like Congress does not have the visibility into those actions and they don't approve of many.

What is happening to all these reports of abuse that went up the chain of command from regular people?

Clearly those guys wanted as little to get out as possible, and they will lie through their teeth to protect it until they can't anymore. I don't give a damn about those guys, I'm sure they'd kill their mothers for another medal.

You're talking about the top executives at the NSA. I'm talking about the illegal activities by regular workers that were reported. And you know what, if the NSA has really now decided to let its people monitor whomever they want to (as many of you seem to assert)... why not just leak that and then you really are a whistleblower, and you can stay home!

Massive (much more massive) leaks of legal programs are what would have gotten him jailed, and why he ran.

And I'm not trying to put down an opinion on those programs - I left the DoD long ago and I'm never going back - but they were put in place to keep more of your buildings from getting blown up, and no one complained. And yes I know Bush and pals did a lot of misleading of the public regarding those acts, but it was all in there, and there were plenty of people in here raising hell about it (not me)

How do we know these programs are legal? They have not taken up by the Supreme Court because, without the Snowden leaks, nobody has standing to bring it there.

I think you are reading the criticisms of these programs very poorly here,

If they're not legal, why run?

Because this administration has shown it will go after leakers very aggressively both within and outside of the law. As another poster mentioned, in the case of Thomas Drake. I'm not going to fault a guy for not wanting to go to jail over his beliefs, if there is an alternative.

Thomas Drake is a free man.

 

[JZilla]

To be completely honest, before I go, I do think Snowden will be pardoned eventually.. O/U 10 years? The next Republican might do it on his way out.

And I think his revelations will make a difference and history will be kind to him.. again, eventually

Shouldn't have run to Vlad, though. He embarrassed the current administration in front of the world and made things wayyy worse.

 

[timschochet]

JZilla is making many of the same arguments I made over a month ago. Some of them I still agree with: the collection of bulk data without individual warrants is legal and constitutional. There is no evil NSA conspiracy, and no that is NOT a straw argument.

But JZIlla, doesn't it bother you that the NSA has lied to the American public and to Congress? It bothers me. I can't defend them any longer, mostly because of the lies.

 

[Politician Spock]

JZilla is making many of the same arguments I made over a month ago. Some of them I still agree with: the collection of bulk data without individual warrants is legal and constitutional. There is no evil NSA conspiracy, and no that is NOT a straw argument.

The strawman argument is jzilla's attempt to establish that The Commish believes that the "whole government is out to get you". That's not The Commish's belief at all. It's a logical fallacy. So is jzilla's ad hominem argument pointed at Snowden. Both are logical fallacies in regards to the issue of what he has revealed about the government. And yes you were making the same fallacies over a month ago too. It's big of you to admit that.

 

[JZilla]

JZilla is making many of the same arguments I made over a month ago. Some of them I still agree with: the collection of bulk data without individual warrants is legal and constitutional. There is no evil NSA conspiracy, and no that is NOT a straw argument.

But JZIlla, doesn't it bother you that the NSA has lied to the American public and to Congress? It bothers me. I can't defend them any longer, mostly because of the lies.

I'd expect them to lie to try to protect the secrecy of their programs. I'm sure Congress expected them to as well. It's what they do. It's what you pay them to do.

Again, I'm not necessarily a fan of these programs, but they do what they're told by Congress and the Pentagon, and they will lie, cheat, steal and kill to protect their secrets.

 

[JZilla]

Not a hero or a traitor, just an idiot

I won't listen to a thing he says but you can't avoid some headlines, and he's even dumber than I thought if he thinks he's going to somehow be forgiven for running into the arms of a hostile regime.

The stuff he leaked all you outraged people should have known about ten years ago when the Patriot Act was in the news. Back then, we were all for whatever it takes to keep the terrorists at bay. The NSA's done nothing illegal, which makes him not a whistleblower. Technically, it makes him a traitor, though I've decided to just stick with idiot, since he kind of (only kind of) meant well.

I've been one of the biggest defenders of the NSA in this forum, but even I acknowledge that they've committed some illegal acts. How can you assert otherwise? Have you been following this story?

Are you talking about violations by individuals, like abusing the system to spy on an ex, or are you talking about programs - the meat of what he disclosed?

For me, mostly the former- though you'll certainly get an argument on the latter as well; I'm just not the right person to make it.But they've also lied to Congress and to the public, and that is surely against the law.

Hardly whistleblowing material. There are perfectly workable channels in place for reporting abuse.

As for lying to Congress, that's totally immaterial to his crimes. He doesn't get a break because NSA predictably played duck and cover for a while.

Perhaps, but that's not the point. You wrote that the NSA has broken no laws. That's what I was responding to.

I don't consider the actions of individuals breaking NSA's laws to constitute the NSA breaking laws

Right....organizations shouldn't be held accountable for the actions of it's members. It's our faults we didn't know we were being lied to. Shame on us!

I think you may have taken my post out of context here. I was speaking only to the one-off improper actions by specific employees, which Snowden could have easily reported up the chain and kept his job, life, etc. These are the only illegal acts I'm aware of from his reports.

What in the actions of our government leads you to believe this is remotely true? Sure, it's easy to say, and something we would like to believe, but I don't see any evidence that it's the case.

Here's where I regrettably misunderstood The Commish as not trusting the government

 

[Ted Mullins]

Just because congress approves something doesn't mean it doesn't violate the constitution. There is no automatic judicial case opened up on everything congress approves. The only time what congress does is challenged in the judicial system is when someone files a case, and without evidence of one being harmed by what congress has approved, the judicial system doesn't have to accept the case.

Challenging the constitutionality of anything in the Patriot Act in court was pretty much impossible until Snowden provided evidence of how people were being harmed.

THAT is a systemic problem, not a conspiracy.

Snowden should have stuck around and stood up for himself. He didn't and I bet he regrets it.

I've stopped short of calling the guy a traitor because I know these programs are pretty ridiculous

But I do think the way he went about things was pretty stupid if he ever thought he might want to live in the US again. And the only reason I popped up in here and weighed now is because I saw he said that. What a goof.

Yeah, I think he knows he won't come back barring a major shift in government sentiment. He said it because he was directly asked by Williams if he'd like to come home IIRC, and his tone did not seem to insinuate he thinks it'll happen. You kinda have to see it to understand it - he really has a sort of naive and idealistic vibe when he talks about how surveillance should be run...like in his dream world he comes back to his job and their work only touches the bad guys. He seems more supportive of the NSA than most of his supporters.

I don't agree but I can't really fault people for not liking him going to Hong Kong and then Russia. My assumption was always that his choices were limited to places that'd take someone that was a fugitive in the US, and had to be a country strong enough that the US couldn't just come take him - that seems to leave our allies out of it.

He said in the interview that he raised concerns through the appropriate in house channels and this was confirmed by NBC News sources, FWIW. Seems like he had a fundamental problem with these programs themselves and it wasn't something that would be addressed through the usual channels.

 

[timschochet]

JZilla is making many of the same arguments I made over a month ago. Some of them I still agree with: the collection of bulk data without individual warrants is legal and constitutional. There is no evil NSA conspiracy, and no that is NOT a straw argument.

But JZIlla, doesn't it bother you that the NSA has lied to the American public and to Congress? It bothers me. I can't defend them any longer, mostly because of the lies.

I'd expect them to lie to try to protect the secrecy of their programs. I'm sure Congress expected them to as well. It's what they do. It's what you pay them to do.

Again, I'm not necessarily a fan of these programs, but they do what they're told by Congress and the Pentagon, and they will lie, cheat, steal and kill to protect their secrets.

That's not OK with me.

 

[Politician Spock]

What in the actions of our government leads you to believe this is remotely true? Sure, it's easy to say, and something we would like to believe, but I don't see any evidence that it's the case.

Here's where I regrettably misunderstood The Commish as not trusting the government

Reread what you just said in the post before: "I'd expect them to lie to try to protect the secrecy of their programs. I'm sure Congress expected them to as well. It's what they do. It's what you pay them to do."

Then consider The Commish's point again. Repeat until you get it.

 

[JZilla]

He said in the interview that he raised concerns through the appropriate in house channels and this was confirmed by NBC News sources, FWIW. Seems like he had a fundamental problem with these programs themselves and it wasn't something that would be addressed through the usual channels.

Yes this is my thought as well. It's mainly about the programs, not the people or the environment.

 

[JZilla]

JZilla is making many of the same arguments I made over a month ago. Some of them I still agree with: the collection of bulk data without individual warrants is legal and constitutional. There is no evil NSA conspiracy, and no that is NOT a straw argument.

But JZIlla, doesn't it bother you that the NSA has lied to the American public and to Congress? It bothers me. I can't defend them any longer, mostly because of the lies.

I'd expect them to lie to try to protect the secrecy of their programs. I'm sure Congress expected them to as well. It's what they do. It's what you pay them to do.

Again, I'm not necessarily a fan of these programs, but they do what they're told by Congress and the Pentagon, and they will lie, cheat, steal and kill to protect their secrets.

That's not OK with me.

That's the NSA

In their defense if they went around blabbing everything they did, we might be speaking russkie

 

[JZilla]

What in the actions of our government leads you to believe this is remotely true? Sure, it's easy to say, and something we would like to believe, but I don't see any evidence that it's the case.

Here's where I regrettably misunderstood The Commish as not trusting the government

Reread what you just said in the post before: "I'd expect them to lie to try to protect the secrecy of their programs. I'm sure Congress expected them to as well. It's what they do. It's what you pay them to do."

Then consider The Commish's point again. Repeat until you get it.

I'll never get it because the National SECURITY Agency's entire job is to keep their #### under wraps, no matter who's asking.

That doesn't mean there aren't effective channels within the agency to report real abuse, which seemed to be The Commish's assertion.

 

[timschochet]

JZilla is making many of the same arguments I made over a month ago. Some of them I still agree with: the collection of bulk data without individual warrants is legal and constitutional. There is no evil NSA conspiracy, and no that is NOT a straw argument.

But JZIlla, doesn't it bother you that the NSA has lied to the American public and to Congress? It bothers me. I can't defend them any longer, mostly because of the lies.

I'd expect them to lie to try to protect the secrecy of their programs. I'm sure Congress expected them to as well. It's what they do. It's what you pay them to do.

Again, I'm not necessarily a fan of these programs, but they do what they're told by Congress and the Pentagon, and they will lie, cheat, steal and kill to protect their secrets.

That's not OK with me.

That's the NSA

In their defense if they went around blabbing everything they did, we might be speaking russkie

They don't have to blab about everything they do. But they don't have to lie either. There is a fine line, but I can see it.

 

[Politician Spock]

What in the actions of our government leads you to believe this is remotely true? Sure, it's easy to say, and something we would like to believe, but I don't see any evidence that it's the case.

Here's where I regrettably misunderstood The Commish as not trusting the government

Reread what you just said in the post before: "I'd expect them to lie to try to protect the secrecy of their programs. I'm sure Congress expected them to as well. It's what they do. It's what you pay them to do."

Then consider The Commish's point again. Repeat until you get it.

I'll never get it because the National SECURITY Agency's entire job is to keep their #### under wraps, no matter who's asking.

That doesn't mean there aren't effective channels within the agency to report real abuse, which seemed to be The Commish's assertion.

That doesn't mean they can violate the constitution.

 

[JZilla]

JZilla is making many of the same arguments I made over a month ago. Some of them I still agree with: the collection of bulk data without individual warrants is legal and constitutional. There is no evil NSA conspiracy, and no that is NOT a straw argument.

But JZIlla, doesn't it bother you that the NSA has lied to the American public and to Congress? It bothers me. I can't defend them any longer, mostly because of the lies.

I'd expect them to lie to try to protect the secrecy of their programs. I'm sure Congress expected them to as well. It's what they do. It's what you pay them to do.

Again, I'm not necessarily a fan of these programs, but they do what they're told by Congress and the Pentagon, and they will lie, cheat, steal and kill to protect their secrets.

That's not OK with me.

That's the NSA

In their defense if they went around blabbing everything they did, we might be speaking russkie

They don't have to blab about everything they do. But they don't have to lie either. There is a fine line, but I can see it.

They'll lie until they can't anymore. This is information that was going straight not only to Congress and the public but to the enemy.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

What in the actions of our government leads you to believe this is remotely true? Sure, it's easy to say, and something we would like to believe, but I don't see any evidence that it's the case.

Here's where I regrettably misunderstood The Commish as not trusting the government

Reread what you just said in the post before: "I'd expect them to lie to try to protect the secrecy of their programs. I'm sure Congress expected them to as well. It's what they do. It's what you pay them to do."

Then consider The Commish's point again. Repeat until you get it.

I'll never get it because the National SECURITY Agency's entire job is to keep their #### under wraps, no matter who's asking.

That doesn't mean there aren't effective channels within the agency to report real abuse, which seemed to be The Commish's assertion.

That doesn't mean they can violate the constitution.

 

[Slapdash]

JZilla is making many of the same arguments I made over a month ago. Some of them I still agree with: the collection of bulk data without individual warrants is legal and constitutional. There is no evil NSA conspiracy, and no that is NOT a straw argument.

But JZIlla, doesn't it bother you that the NSA has lied to the American public and to Congress? It bothers me. I can't defend them any longer, mostly because of the lies.

I'd expect them to lie to try to protect the secrecy of their programs. I'm sure Congress expected them to as well. It's what they do. It's what you pay them to do.

Again, I'm not necessarily a fan of these programs, but they do what they're told by Congress and the Pentagon, and they will lie, cheat, steal and kill to protect their secrets.

That's not OK with me.

That's the NSA

In their defense if they went around blabbing everything they did, we might be speaking russkie

If the NSA can't even tell the truth to the people providing oversight, it shouldn't exist.

 

[timschochet]

JZilla is making many of the same arguments I made over a month ago. Some of them I still agree with: the collection of bulk data without individual warrants is legal and constitutional. There is no evil NSA conspiracy, and no that is NOT a straw argument.

The strawman argument is jzilla's attempt to establish that The Commish believes that the "whole government is out to get you". That's not The Commish's belief at all. It's a logical fallacy. So is jzilla's ad hominem argument pointed at Snowden. Both are logical fallacies in regards to the issue of what he has revealed about the government. And yes you were making the same fallacies over a month ago too. It's big of you to admit that.

No it's not a strawman at all. Ever since we started this debate months ago, you and others (including the Commish) have been involved in a sort of dance, in which you accuse the government of the worst sort of conspiracies, and then you claim that's not what you meant and that anyone who attacks you for it is attacking a strawman. In this very thread, the Commish claimed with certainty that if Snowden returns to the USA, he will be assassinated. In this thread, you asserted that what the NSA is doing is the biggest threat to freedom ever. In the other thread, Slapdash repeatedly compared what the NSA is doing to George Orwell's 1984. That's fine, you guys can have your opinions on this. But don't try to pretend that they are not indicative of "the government is out to get you" because that is EXACTLY what you guys have been saying, and JZilla was correct to call you out on it.

 

[Politician Spock]

JZilla is making many of the same arguments I made over a month ago. Some of them I still agree with: the collection of bulk data without individual warrants is legal and constitutional. There is no evil NSA conspiracy, and no that is NOT a straw argument.

But JZIlla, doesn't it bother you that the NSA has lied to the American public and to Congress? It bothers me. I can't defend them any longer, mostly because of the lies.

I'd expect them to lie to try to protect the secrecy of their programs. I'm sure Congress expected them to as well. It's what they do. It's what you pay them to do.

Again, I'm not necessarily a fan of these programs, but they do what they're told by Congress and the Pentagon, and they will lie, cheat, steal and kill to protect their secrets.

That's not OK with me.

That's the NSA

In their defense if they went around blabbing everything they did, we might be speaking russkie

They don't have to blab about everything they do. But they don't have to lie either. There is a fine line, but I can see it.

They'll lie until they can't anymore. This is information that was going straight not only to Congress and the public but to the enemy.

How can you acknowledge in one post that they will lie until they can't lie anymore, yet in another post say there are effective channels within the agency to report real abuse? How can any report of abuse be effective with all the lying?

 

[JZilla]

JZilla is making many of the same arguments I made over a month ago. Some of them I still agree with: the collection of bulk data without individual warrants is legal and constitutional. There is no evil NSA conspiracy, and no that is NOT a straw argument.

But JZIlla, doesn't it bother you that the NSA has lied to the American public and to Congress? It bothers me. I can't defend them any longer, mostly because of the lies.

I'd expect them to lie to try to protect the secrecy of their programs. I'm sure Congress expected them to as well. It's what they do. It's what you pay them to do.

Again, I'm not necessarily a fan of these programs, but they do what they're told by Congress and the Pentagon, and they will lie, cheat, steal and kill to protect their secrets.

That's not OK with me.

That's the NSA

In their defense if they went around blabbing everything they did, we might be speaking russkie

If the NSA can't even tell the truth to the people providing oversight, it shouldn't exist.

If the NSA didn't exist, again we might be speaking russkie

It's a conundrum, I know. Hell of a thing, war.

 

[Politician Spock]

JZilla is making many of the same arguments I made over a month ago. Some of them I still agree with: the collection of bulk data without individual warrants is legal and constitutional. There is no evil NSA conspiracy, and no that is NOT a straw argument.

The strawman argument is jzilla's attempt to establish that The Commish believes that the "whole government is out to get you". That's not The Commish's belief at all. It's a logical fallacy. So is jzilla's ad hominem argument pointed at Snowden. Both are logical fallacies in regards to the issue of what he has revealed about the government. And yes you were making the same fallacies over a month ago too. It's big of you to admit that.

No it's not a strawman at all. Ever since we started this debate months ago, you and others (including the Commish) have been involved in a sort of dance, in which you accuse the government of the worst sort of conspiracies, and then you claim that's not what you meant and that anyone who attacks you for it is attacking a strawman. In this very thread, the Commish claimed with certainty that if Snowden returns to the USA, he will be assassinated. In this thread, you asserted that what the NSA is doing is the biggest threat to freedom ever. In the other thread, Slapdash repeatedly compared what the NSA is doing to George Orwell's 1984. That's fine, you guys can have your opinions on this. But don't try to pretend that they are not indicative of "the government is out to get you" because that is EXACTLY what you guys have been saying, and JZilla was correct to call you out on it.

Link?

 

[Politician Spock]

JZilla is making many of the same arguments I made over a month ago. Some of them I still agree with: the collection of bulk data without individual warrants is legal and constitutional. There is no evil NSA conspiracy, and no that is NOT a straw argument.

But JZIlla, doesn't it bother you that the NSA has lied to the American public and to Congress? It bothers me. I can't defend them any longer, mostly because of the lies.

I'd expect them to lie to try to protect the secrecy of their programs. I'm sure Congress expected them to as well. It's what they do. It's what you pay them to do.

Again, I'm not necessarily a fan of these programs, but they do what they're told by Congress and the Pentagon, and they will lie, cheat, steal and kill to protect their secrets.

That's not OK with me.

That's the NSA

In their defense if they went around blabbing everything they did, we might be speaking russkie

If the NSA can't even tell the truth to the people providing oversight, it shouldn't exist.

If the NSA didn't exist, again we might be speaking russkie

It's a conundrum, I know. Hell of a thing, war.

You're gonna have to supply a different argument to support what the NSA is doing other than fear. I'm not afraid of Russia.

 

[StrikeS2k]

JZilla is making many of the same arguments I made over a month ago. Some of them I still agree with: the collection of bulk data without individual warrants is legal and constitutional. There is no evil NSA conspiracy, and no that is NOT a straw argument.

But JZIlla, doesn't it bother you that the NSA has lied to the American public and to Congress? It bothers me. I can't defend them any longer, mostly because of the lies.

I'd expect them to lie to try to protect the secrecy of their programs. I'm sure Congress expected them to as well. It's what they do. It's what you pay them to do.

Again, I'm not necessarily a fan of these programs, but they do what they're told by Congress and the Pentagon, and they will lie, cheat, steal and kill to protect their secrets.

That's not OK with me.

That's the NSA

In their defense if they went around blabbing everything they did, we might be speaking russkie

 

[timschochet]

If the NSA can't even tell the truth to the people providing oversight, it shouldn't exist.

Slapdash put in a few words what I've been trying to say, JZilla. Part of my reasoning in defending the NSA for so long was because I believed the oversight to be far more legitimate than other people did. But remove that legitimacy, and I can't defend them any longer.

 

[eoMMan]

Are you guys all gubment workers? How do have time to go back and forth on this? And why do you when you know there isn't going to be a "yeah, you're right....let's lock this thread" moment.

Such a waste of time and energy.

 

[JZilla]

JZilla is making many of the same arguments I made over a month ago. Some of them I still agree with: the collection of bulk data without individual warrants is legal and constitutional. There is no evil NSA conspiracy, and no that is NOT a straw argument.

But JZIlla, doesn't it bother you that the NSA has lied to the American public and to Congress? It bothers me. I can't defend them any longer, mostly because of the lies.

I'd expect them to lie to try to protect the secrecy of their programs. I'm sure Congress expected them to as well. It's what they do. It's what you pay them to do.

Again, I'm not necessarily a fan of these programs, but they do what they're told by Congress and the Pentagon, and they will lie, cheat, steal and kill to protect their secrets.

That's not OK with me.

That's the NSA

In their defense if they went around blabbing everything they did, we might be speaking russkie

They don't have to blab about everything they do. But they don't have to lie either. There is a fine line, but I can see it.

They'll lie until they can't anymore. This is information that was going straight not only to Congress and the public but to the enemy.

How can you acknowledge in one post that they will lie until they can't lie anymore, yet in another post say there are effective channels within the agency to report real abuse? How can any report of abuse be effective with all the lying?

I suspect you are being disingenuous here

They may lie outwardly to protect security but they maintain control internally to prevent stuff like spying on girlfriends or listening to you and The Commish talk about George Orwell on your ham radios

 

[JZilla]

JZilla is making many of the same arguments I made over a month ago. Some of them I still agree with: the collection of bulk data without individual warrants is legal and constitutional. There is no evil NSA conspiracy, and no that is NOT a straw argument.

But JZIlla, doesn't it bother you that the NSA has lied to the American public and to Congress? It bothers me. I can't defend them any longer, mostly because of the lies.

I'd expect them to lie to try to protect the secrecy of their programs. I'm sure Congress expected them to as well. It's what they do. It's what you pay them to do.

Again, I'm not necessarily a fan of these programs, but they do what they're told by Congress and the Pentagon, and they will lie, cheat, steal and kill to protect their secrets.

That's not OK with me.

That's the NSA

In their defense if they went around blabbing everything they did, we might be speaking russkie

If the NSA can't even tell the truth to the people providing oversight, it shouldn't exist.

If the NSA didn't exist, again we might be speaking russkie

It's a conundrum, I know. Hell of a thing, war.

You're gonna have to supply a different argument to support what the NSA is doing other than fear. I'm not afraid of Russia.

Not anymore

 

[Wilfredo Ledezma]

If Snowden is just leaking a bunch of activities approved by Congress, why did it take the Snowden leaks to find out the NSA's leaders were lying to Congress about the size and scope of its actions? Seems like Congress does not have the visibility into those actions and they don't approve of many.

What is happening to all these reports of abuse that went up the chain of command from regular people?

It sounded like many of them were dissuaded by said superiors from actually making claims or filing reports. They were in fact usually told to not ask questions lest they be demoted or punished. It's that kind of culture that I find scary given the immensity of this program and breach of our lives and info.

 

[Politician Spock]

JZilla is making many of the same arguments I made over a month ago. Some of them I still agree with: the collection of bulk data without individual warrants is legal and constitutional. There is no evil NSA conspiracy, and no that is NOT a straw argument.

But JZIlla, doesn't it bother you that the NSA has lied to the American public and to Congress? It bothers me. I can't defend them any longer, mostly because of the lies.

I'd expect them to lie to try to protect the secrecy of their programs. I'm sure Congress expected them to as well. It's what they do. It's what you pay them to do.

Again, I'm not necessarily a fan of these programs, but they do what they're told by Congress and the Pentagon, and they will lie, cheat, steal and kill to protect their secrets.

That's not OK with me.

That's the NSA

In their defense if they went around blabbing everything they did, we might be speaking russkie

They don't have to blab about everything they do. But they don't have to lie either. There is a fine line, but I can see it.

They'll lie until they can't anymore. This is information that was going straight not only to Congress and the public but to the enemy.

How can you acknowledge in one post that they will lie until they can't lie anymore, yet in another post say there are effective channels within the agency to report real abuse? How can any report of abuse be effective with all the lying?

I suspect you are being disingenuous here

They may lie outwardly to protect security but they maintain control internally to prevent stuff like spying on girlfriends or listening to you and The Commish talk about George Orwell on your ham radios

So Snowden is lying?

 

[JZilla]

If the NSA can't even tell the truth to the people providing oversight, it shouldn't exist.

Slapdash put in a few words what I've been trying to say, JZilla. Part of my reasoning in defending the NSA for so long was because I believed the oversight to be far more legitimate than other people did. But remove that legitimacy, and I can't defend them any longer.

How do you know they didn't tell the truth to the REAL people providing oversight? (The JCS for starters, closed door Congressional committees)

The Congressional hearings were a dog and pony show.

 

[StrikeS2k]

If the NSA lies outwardly, and JZilla used to work there, isn't it reasonable to believe that he's just towing the party line? Why should I believe anything he says?