Edward Snowden poll (5/20/14): Hero or Traitor? (1 Viewer)

[Doctor Detroit]

I would assume that this is correct. I would expect current and ex-military to be more loyal to and have a better different perception of the national security organizations than the average person.

I'm tired of this country bowing at the altar of the military industrial complex.

Until the world we live in changes, you have no choice. India isn't buying F-16s for air shows.

F-16's in India? This is what we're supposed to be afraid of?

I'm sure you know that isn't the point. Or maybe you don't.

Guilty as charged. Please explain the point. We've got a pair of oceans surrounding us, and Texas probably has more private weapons than the Indian army. I really want to know what India buying F-16's means to me and my tax dollars.

It means that the world we live in is full of people who want to own it all, see Russia and Ukraine. India buys military weaponry to protect itself from Pakistan and China, Brazil buys it to protect itself from trans-gender prostitutes taking over. Pakistan has nuclear weapons so Iran doesn't walk on in, or India decides Pakistan is rightfully theirs. Saudi Arabia buys planes and gear because they hate Iran, Finland is in NATO so they don't get overrun by the Russians.

If you hate the military industrial complex then Africa might be best for you. They don't have much of it and are overrun with civil wars and chaos. Humans have been trying to invade and take each other over since the beginning of time, I find it hard to understand how people hate the military industrial complex when it has largely (especially in the United States) preserved and strengthened us.

Right, and we've got Canada and ####### Mexico to worry about. I think we can handle ourselves with maybe 1/10th of the F-16's we currently have. If that.

What would have happened had we not responded after 9/11 in your opinion? Had we done absolutely nothing at all? Just curious, not trying to get in a protracted argument. You know what I think about it already.

Obviously we had to respond in some fashion, but all of the F-16's in the world (largely) didn't prevent it from happening in the first place. It's even possible that they contributed to it happening in the first place by pissing a bunch of people off that might not have otherwise cared all that much had we been content to simply be Canada's buttcrack and leave them alone.

That's fair. I don't think countries like Canada or Sweden are immune to folks wanting to destroy their way of living either though. At least two known terrorist operations impacting Canada were broken up (maybe by NSA???) and Sweden had that crazy attack in 2011. Even countries that are neutral and indifferent to most controversial global operations still have people trying to punish them for their thinking or lifestyle.

I think there is a lot of waste in DoD (not F-16s), the Army in particular has to be totally redesigned to respond to 21st century problems. I think the other three services and the Coast Guard are probably the best investment I make as a taxpayer, I at least know what those agencies do adn what I am getting for what I put in. I pay Maryland state taxes and have no real idea what I get for that money. It's not good schools or great roads, must be some secret that NSA holds (NSA is in my state after all).

 

[Ted Mullins]

Part of my problem with Snowden is how pompous he sounds. He seems genuinely pleased with himself and lapses into self congratulatory dialogue far too often. He's also pegging the narcissism meter pretty hard. This even after watch Elliott Roger YouTube rants.

Maybe it's my bias, but I have never really gotten that vibe from Snowden. Assange and Greenwald to some extent on the other hand, definitely.

 

[Slapdash]

Like Hayden said, people are pissed at the NSA for not catching the 9/11 conspiracy and then they are pissed at the NSA because they collect too much information. Finding a happy medium probably doesn't exist but I'll go back to what I said when this first broke: No one gives a #### if you are cheating on your wife or what you ate last night that didn't agree with you. You can't be entirely free in this world, if you want that then move to a country like Sweden that isn't a terrorist target. Oh wait...no, don't move there either.

Government's job is not to make you happy, it's to protect and serve you. The NSA is not the Savak, no one cares if you are a communist or like to dress up like a potato. Commish saying that Snowden might come up dead had he stayed in the U.S. is paranoia and mindless shtick if there was ever such a thing. You don't live in Uzbekistan, Snowden would be treated just like any other person who gave away state secrets like Alrich Ames or Robert Hanssen. If what he gave to reporters and maybe to China and Russia was innocuous, then he'd be a free man and write many books and get on some speaking tours. Commish and Strikes2K could throw their panties at him, America would love it.

Awesome post. Couldn't agree more. Are you reading this, Politician Spock? Slapdash? Strikes2K? This guy gets it.

 

[DrJ]

That's fair. I don't think countries like Canada or Sweden are immune to folks wanting to destroy their way of living either though. At least two known terrorist operations impacting Canada were broken up (maybe by NSA???) and Sweden had that crazy attack in 2011. Even countries that are neutral and indifferent to most controversial global operations still have people trying to punish them for their thinking or lifestyle.


I think there is a lot of waste in DoD (not F-16s), the Army in particular has to be totally redesigned to respond to 21st century problems. I think the other three services and the Coast Guard are probably the best investment I make as a taxpayer, I at least know what those agencies do adn what I am getting for what I put in. I pay Maryland state taxes and have no real idea what I get for that money. It's not good schools or great roads, must be some secret that NSA holds (NSA is in my state after all).

I agree, they're not immune and there's definitely a need for some military might, some level of intelligence gathering which will always threaten privacy, etc. Where I get concerned outside of just the Mossad type stuff is:

1) We're probably getting involved in way more crap than we really need to be. Some of this is probably good stuff. Other stuff is our desire to own the world, or at least control the parts we really want, and some people are going to take exception to that. Because as you pointed out - they also want to control all of this stuff.

2) Financial security is also something to be concerned with outside of military might. I don't really doubt that I'm getting back more than what I put into these things, because we're running a pretty gigantic tab at this point. We're getting way more than we put in as a collective whole, but I see that as a problem. And when we start talking about places we might be able to cut some money, you notice that military spending makes up a pretty hefty chunk of spending. So you get to thinking - is this really necessary? I live in Illinois, so this is even worse at a state level.

 

[DrJ]

Also - for the record, I totally get that you guys are out there putting it on the line to make us safer. And that's part of what bothers me in thinking some of these actions really aren't making us safer. That's exposing you guys to risk you shouldn't even be a part of. And then at the end of the day I think that like most projects, whether that's building a building or blowing up a whole mess of people in one, it's real easy to figure out the up front costs. But maintaining the solution long term, like helping this guy whose brain chemistry you altered by making him do this sort of thing, or the guy who got his leg blown off...well, we didn't exactly put that in the budget. It doesn't sit really well with me. But as you noted, I'm not the guy doing this stuff every day either, I'm glad you feel strongly that things are usually on the right track.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

That's fair. I don't think countries like Canada or Sweden are immune to folks wanting to destroy their way of living either though. At least two known terrorist operations impacting Canada were broken up (maybe by NSA???) and Sweden had that crazy attack in 2011. Even countries that are neutral and indifferent to most controversial global operations still have people trying to punish them for their thinking or lifestyle.


I think there is a lot of waste in DoD (not F-16s), the Army in particular has to be totally redesigned to respond to 21st century problems. I think the other three services and the Coast Guard are probably the best investment I make as a taxpayer, I at least know what those agencies do adn what I am getting for what I put in. I pay Maryland state taxes and have no real idea what I get for that money. It's not good schools or great roads, must be some secret that NSA holds (NSA is in my state after all).

I agree, they're not immune and there's definitely a need for some military might, some level of intelligence gathering which will always threaten privacy, etc. Where I get concerned outside of just the Mossad type stuff is:

1) We're probably getting involved in way more crap than we really need to be. Some of this is probably good stuff. Other stuff is our desire to own the world, or at least control the parts we really want, and some people are going to take exception to that. Because as you pointed out - they also want to control all of this stuff.

2) Financial security is also something to be concerned with outside of military might. I don't really doubt that I'm getting back more than what I put into these things, because we're running a pretty gigantic tab at this point. We're getting way more than we put in as a collective whole, but I see that as a problem. And when we start talking about places we might be able to cut some money, you notice that military spending makes up a pretty hefty chunk of spending. So you get to thinking - is this really necessary? I live in Illinois, so this is even worse at a state level.

When we invaded Iraq, the first volley's, I was on a treadmill at Kandahar Airfield in Afghanistan. I was with probably 10 to 15 Soldiers and Marines and we all stopped working out and were just watching the TV. No one said a word, because we either didn't know what to make of it, or we were not happy with it. So yeah, I can understand the sentiment of being involved where we shouldn't. Say what you want about Obama but he's kept us out of places we don't belong like Libya and Syria, we can influence conflicts without having to send jets and warm bodies to shoot at.

As far as the money aspect, DoD is taking some major cuts right now to programs and personnel. I left Friday after more than two decades at the DoD, it was time to go but the future of operations is murky at the moment. I could find a lot of fat to cut in the department, but they seem like they are going to slash stuff that they actually should keep. The level of Congressional involvement with individual weapons programs and systems would make your head spin, it's astonishing. No government department has more political tentacles than the DoD, some of the arguments are just appalling. Some New Hampshire congresswomen (forget the name) wanted to keep the A-10s because her husband flew them. I'm not making that up, it's a matter of public record. I had to sit there and listen to her argue with the Air Force Chief of Staff about the merits of the A-10, when he told the panel the Air Force could live without it.

I won't miss that ####, congress is so broke it just makes me sad.

 

[fatness]

Government's job is not to make you happy, it's to protect and serve you.

You and everyone else can see the basic contradiction between those 2 functions. Lean too heavily on the "protect" part, as is currently being done, changes the job to "protect and monitor you".

That ain't America.

 

[moleculo]

Hero's do the right thing, despite the consequences. They know that there are risks and do heroic things anyways. I'm talking about people jumping into rivers to save a dog (or a stranger), a GI risking life and limb to bring a wounded soldier to safety, a police officer who risks everything to keep the streets safe.

What is not heroic is seeking comfort in the company of our countries adversaries.

Not only is Snowden a traitor, he's a coward.

 

[Rohn Jambo]

Snowdon is not a very good spy because what he revealed was already common knowledge.

 

[Rohn Jambo]

Government's job is not to make you happy, it's to protect and serve you.

You and everyone else can see the basic contradiction between those 2 functions. Lean too heavily on the "protect" part, as is currently being done, changes the job to "protect and monitor you".

That ain't America.

All the countries in the world who have the capacity do the same. Bush and Obama wanted the US to stay competitive but it has been going on for many administrations.

 

[Slapdash]

Hero's do the right thing, despite the consequences. They know that there are risks and do heroic things anyways. I'm talking about people jumping into rivers to save a dog (or a stranger), a GI risking life and limb to bring a wounded soldier to safety, a police officer who risks everything to keep the streets safe.

What is not heroic is seeking comfort in the company of our countries adversaries.

Not only is Snowden a traitor, he's a coward.

Seeking comfort? Yeah, because I'm sure Snowden wants to be stuck in the Moscow Airport. If the US were so worried about Snowden being in Russia, we could have not revoked his passport and he would be in Ecuador or Germany. That wouldn't help fit the government's narrative that his goal has been to take "secrets to our enemies".

 

[Slapdash]

Government's job is not to make you happy, it's to protect and serve you.

You and everyone else can see the basic contradiction between those 2 functions. Lean too heavily on the "protect" part, as is currently being done, changes the job to "protect and monitor you".

That ain't America.

All the countries in the world who have the capacity do the same. Bush and Obama wanted the US to stay competitive but it has been going on for many administrations.

No country has as much capability as the US due to the amount of internet infrastructure here. Not to mention the hardware and software companies headquartered in the US, which we know cooperate with US spy agencies to build backdoors into consumer technology. And, once those backdoors are there, you are less secure because they are open to everyone.

 

[Rohn Jambo]

Government's job is not to make you happy, it's to protect and serve you.

You and everyone else can see the basic contradiction between those 2 functions. Lean too heavily on the "protect" part, as is currently being done, changes the job to "protect and monitor you".

That ain't America.

All the countries in the world who have the capacity do the same. Bush and Obama wanted the US to stay competitive but it has been going on for many administrations.

No country has as much capability as the US due to the amount of internet infrastructure here. Not to mention the hardware and software companies headquartered in the US, which we know cooperate with US spy agencies to build backdoors into consumer technology. And, once those backdoors are there, you are less secure because they are open to everyone.

This is why I have masking tape over my cell phone camera for years. It's common sense that the NSA could build a driftnet only with the help of communication companies, Internet providers, Google, etc. Do they monitor the FFA? Of course they do, and they created a special filter for timschochet.

 

[Mr. Pickles]

Part of my problem with Snowden is how pompous he sounds. He seems genuinely pleased with himself and lapses into self congratulatory dialogue far too often. He's also pegging the narcissism meter pretty hard. This even after watch Elliott Roger YouTube rants.

Maybe it's my bias, but I have never really gotten that vibe from Snowden. Assange and Greenwald to some extent on the other hand, definitely.

Snowden did a better impression of Brian Williams than Brian Williams did of himself. I don't know how anyone could stomach that interview.

 

[Short Corner]

If Snowden is just leaking a bunch of activities approved by Congress, why did it take the Snowden leaks to find out the NSA's leaders were lying to Congress about the size and scope of its actions? Seems like Congress does not have the visibility into those actions and they don't approve of many.

What is happening to all these reports of abuse that went up the chain of command from regular people?

Clearly those guys wanted as little to get out as possible, and they will lie through their teeth to protect it until they can't anymore. I don't give a damn about those guys, I'm sure they'd kill their mothers for another medal.

You're talking about the top executives at the NSA. I'm talking about the illegal activities by regular workers that were reported. And you know what, if the NSA has really now decided to let its people monitor whomever they want to (as many of you seem to assert)... why not just leak that and then you really are a whistleblower, and you can stay home!

Massive (much more massive) leaks of legal programs are what would have gotten him jailed, and why he ran.

And I'm not trying to put down an opinion on those programs - I left the DoD long ago and I'm never going back - but they were put in place to keep more of your buildings from getting blown up, and no one complained. And yes I know Bush and pals did a lot of misleading of the public regarding those acts, but it was all in there, and there were plenty of people in here raising hell about it (not me)

How do we know these programs are legal? They have not taken up by the Supreme Court because, without the Snowden leaks, nobody has standing to bring it there.

I think you are reading the criticisms of these programs very poorly here,

If they're not legal, why run?

Because this administration has shown it will go after leakers very aggressively both within and outside of the law. As another poster mentioned, in the case of Thomas Drake. I'm not going to fault a guy for not wanting to go to jail over his beliefs, if there is an alternative.

Thomas Drake is a free man.

Why is that?

 

[Rohn Jambo]

If Snowden is just leaking a bunch of activities approved by Congress, why did it take the Snowden leaks to find out the NSA's leaders were lying to Congress about the size and scope of its actions? Seems like Congress does not have the visibility into those actions and they don't approve of many.

What is happening to all these reports of abuse that went up the chain of command from regular people?

Clearly those guys wanted as little to get out as possible, and they will lie through their teeth to protect it until they can't anymore. I don't give a damn about those guys, I'm sure they'd kill their mothers for another medal.

You're talking about the top executives at the NSA. I'm talking about the illegal activities by regular workers that were reported. And you know what, if the NSA has really now decided to let its people monitor whomever they want to (as many of you seem to assert)... why not just leak that and then you really are a whistleblower, and you can stay home!

Massive (much more massive) leaks of legal programs are what would have gotten him jailed, and why he ran.

And I'm not trying to put down an opinion on those programs - I left the DoD long ago and I'm never going back - but they were put in place to keep more of your buildings from getting blown up, and no one complained. And yes I know Bush and pals did a lot of misleading of the public regarding those acts, but it was all in there, and there were plenty of people in here raising hell about it (not me)

How do we know these programs are legal? They have not taken up by the Supreme Court because, without the Snowden leaks, nobody has standing to bring it there.

I think you are reading the criticisms of these programs very poorly here,

If they're not legal, why run?

Because this administration has shown it will go after leakers very aggressively both within and outside of the law. As another poster mentioned, in the case of Thomas Drake. I'm not going to fault a guy for not wanting to go to jail over his beliefs, if there is an alternative.

Thomas Drake is a free man.

Why is that?

Drake was charged with "retention" and not delivery of classified information. That and he worked in an Apple store.

“I’m Thomas Drake, the former National Security Agency official who’s been in the news,” Mr. Drake told Mr. Holder

“Do you know why they have come after me?” he asked the attorney general.

Mr. Holder replied: “Yes, I do.”

To which, Mr. Drake responded: “But do you know the rest of the story?”

Without a word, Mr. Holder turned and walked out of the store.

A Justice Department spokesman declined to comment, except to say that Mr. Holder is a “fan of Apple products.”

 

[Rohn Jambo]

Part of my problem with Snowden is how pompous he sounds. He seems genuinely pleased with himself and lapses into self congratulatory dialogue far too often. He's also pegging the narcissism meter pretty hard. This even after watch Elliott Roger YouTube rants.

Maybe it's my bias, but I have never really gotten that vibe from Snowden. Assange and Greenwald to some extent on the other hand, definitely.

Snowden did a better impression of Brian Williams than Brian Williams did of himself. I don't know how anyone could stomach that interview.

I didn't watch it.So, you're against a presidential pardon before Obama leaves office?

 

[The Commish]

Like Hayden said, people are pissed at the NSA for not catching the 9/11 conspiracy and then they are pissed at the NSA because they collect too much information. Finding a happy medium probably doesn't exist but I'll go back to what I said when this first broke: No one gives a #### if you are cheating on your wife or what you ate last night that didn't agree with you. You can't be entirely free in this world, if you want that then move to a country like Sweden that isn't a terrorist target. Oh wait...no, don't move there either.

Government's job is not to make you happy, it's to protect and serve you. The NSA is not the Savak, no one cares if you are a communist or like to dress up like a potato. Commish saying that Snowden might come up dead had he stayed in the U.S. is paranoia and mindless shtick if there was ever such a thing. You don't live in Uzbekistan, Snowden would be treated just like any other person who gave away state secrets like Alrich Ames or Robert Hanssen. If what he gave to reporters and maybe to China and Russia was innocuous, then he'd be a free man and write many books and get on some speaking tours. Commish and Strikes2K could throw their panties at him, America would love it.

You guys can keep trying to put words in my mouth all you want. Not sure what you gain by doing so. I said I suspect there'd be an "accident" and he never sees the inside of a prison. Nowhere did I mention him being "assassinated", "that he'd come up dead" etc. Keep attacking that strawman though

 

[The Commish]

Like Hayden said, people are pissed at the NSA for not catching the 9/11 conspiracy

I don't find this to be true.

Not of everyday people.

Largely maybe?

They took a lot of heat for it, from the public and especially from Congress. Keep in mind that many of your elected officials allowed all this to happen, people that disagree with it all should make sure their elected representatives are aware of their displeasure. Other than that, you just aren't going to be able to pick and choose what methods your government uses to make sure planes aren't flying into your buildings. It's a dirty job working in DoD and intelligence, it's not all Captain Phillips rescues and parades. 99% of what is done for Americans is unknown to them, and it's better that way. You can believe that or not, but I know it to be true.

"the public" <> "Congress". If you want to say that it was turned into a political issue, you won't get an argument from anyone on this forum or in this country. There's a huge difference though. I don't know a single person personnally that blamed our government for LETTING this happen....yes, there were a few who suggested they MADE it happen.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Like Hayden said, people are pissed at the NSA for not catching the 9/11 conspiracy and then they are pissed at the NSA because they collect too much information. Finding a happy medium probably doesn't exist but I'll go back to what I said when this first broke: No one gives a #### if you are cheating on your wife or what you ate last night that didn't agree with you. You can't be entirely free in this world, if you want that then move to a country like Sweden that isn't a terrorist target. Oh wait...no, don't move there either.

Government's job is not to make you happy, it's to protect and serve you. The NSA is not the Savak, no one cares if you are a communist or like to dress up like a potato. Commish saying that Snowden might come up dead had he stayed in the U.S. is paranoia and mindless shtick if there was ever such a thing. You don't live in Uzbekistan, Snowden would be treated just like any other person who gave away state secrets like Alrich Ames or Robert Hanssen. If what he gave to reporters and maybe to China and Russia was innocuous, then he'd be a free man and write many books and get on some speaking tours. Commish and Strikes2K could throw their panties at him, America would love it.

You guys can keep trying to put words in my mouth all you want. Not sure what you gain by doing so. I said I suspect there'd be an "accident" and he never sees the inside of a prison. Nowhere did I mention him being "assassinated", "that he'd come up dead" etc. Keep attacking that strawman though

lol

 

[Politician Spock]

Like Hayden said, people are pissed at the NSA for not catching the 9/11 conspiracy and then they are pissed at the NSA because they collect too much information. Finding a happy medium probably doesn't exist but I'll go back to what I said when this first broke: No one gives a #### if you are cheating on your wife or what you ate last night that didn't agree with you. You can't be entirely free in this world, if you want that then move to a country like Sweden that isn't a terrorist target. Oh wait...no, don't move there either.

Government's job is not to make you happy, it's to protect and serve you. The NSA is not the Savak, no one cares if you are a communist or like to dress up like a potato. Commish saying that Snowden might come up dead had he stayed in the U.S. is paranoia and mindless shtick if there was ever such a thing. You don't live in Uzbekistan, Snowden would be treated just like any other person who gave away state secrets like Alrich Ames or Robert Hanssen. If what he gave to reporters and maybe to China and Russia was innocuous, then he'd be a free man and write many books and get on some speaking tours. Commish and Strikes2K could throw their panties at him, America would love it.

The bolded is a red herring. The constitution is NOT contigent upon what the government does or does not give a #### about.

 

[Politician Spock]

Like Hayden said, people are pissed at the NSA for not catching the 9/11 conspiracy and then they are pissed at the NSA because they collect too much information. Finding a happy medium probably doesn't exist but I'll go back to what I said when this first broke: No one gives a #### if you are cheating on your wife or what you ate last night that didn't agree with you. You can't be entirely free in this world, if you want that then move to a country like Sweden that isn't a terrorist target. Oh wait...no, don't move there either.

Government's job is not to make you happy, it's to protect and serve you. The NSA is not the Savak, no one cares if you are a communist or like to dress up like a potato. Commish saying that Snowden might come up dead had he stayed in the U.S. is paranoia and mindless shtick if there was ever such a thing. You don't live in Uzbekistan, Snowden would be treated just like any other person who gave away state secrets like Alrich Ames or Robert Hanssen. If what he gave to reporters and maybe to China and Russia was innocuous, then he'd be a free man and write many books and get on some speaking tours. Commish and Strikes2K could throw their panties at him, America would love it.

Awesome post. Couldn't agree more. Are you reading this, Politician Spock? Slapdash? Strikes2K? This guy gets it.

If my income and career were being debated, I'd say similar things too. If Major League Baseball were being questioned as being unconstitutional, you'd see a ####load of baseball players making claims that it's not, and how different life would be without it.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Like Hayden said, people are pissed at the NSA for not catching the 9/11 conspiracy and then they are pissed at the NSA because they collect too much information. Finding a happy medium probably doesn't exist but I'll go back to what I said when this first broke: No one gives a #### if you are cheating on your wife or what you ate last night that didn't agree with you. You can't be entirely free in this world, if you want that then move to a country like Sweden that isn't a terrorist target. Oh wait...no, don't move there either.

Government's job is not to make you happy, it's to protect and serve you. The NSA is not the Savak, no one cares if you are a communist or like to dress up like a potato. Commish saying that Snowden might come up dead had he stayed in the U.S. is paranoia and mindless shtick if there was ever such a thing. You don't live in Uzbekistan, Snowden would be treated just like any other person who gave away state secrets like Alrich Ames or Robert Hanssen. If what he gave to reporters and maybe to China and Russia was innocuous, then he'd be a free man and write many books and get on some speaking tours. Commish and Strikes2K could throw their panties at him, America would love it.

Awesome post. Couldn't agree more. Are you reading this, Politician Spock? Slapdash? Strikes2K? This guy gets it.

If my income and career were being debated, I'd say similar things too. If Major League Baseball were being questioned as being unconstitutional, you'd see a ####load of baseball players making claims that it's not, and how different life would be without it.

WTF are you even talking about? I don't work for the NSA, knob.

 

[Politician Spock]

Finding a happy medium probably doesn't exist

WTF?!?!

No one is looking for a solution that makes everyone happy. There is already a line the government cannot cross called the constitution. If that line makes the government unhappy, too ####### bad!!! The government has to do it's job without crossing that line.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Finding a happy medium probably doesn't exist

WTF?!?!

No one is looking for a solution that makes everyone happy. There is already a line the government cannot cross called the constitution. If that line makes the government unhappy, too ####### bad!!! The government has to do it's job without crossing that line.

Stop cherry-picking, you're not very good at it.

 

[Politician Spock]

Like Hayden said, people are pissed at the NSA for not catching the 9/11 conspiracy and then they are pissed at the NSA because they collect too much information. Finding a happy medium probably doesn't exist but I'll go back to what I said when this first broke: No one gives a #### if you are cheating on your wife or what you ate last night that didn't agree with you. You can't be entirely free in this world, if you want that then move to a country like Sweden that isn't a terrorist target. Oh wait...no, don't move there either.

Government's job is not to make you happy, it's to protect and serve you. The NSA is not the Savak, no one cares if you are a communist or like to dress up like a potato. Commish saying that Snowden might come up dead had he stayed in the U.S. is paranoia and mindless shtick if there was ever such a thing. You don't live in Uzbekistan, Snowden would be treated just like any other person who gave away state secrets like Alrich Ames or Robert Hanssen. If what he gave to reporters and maybe to China and Russia was innocuous, then he'd be a free man and write many books and get on some speaking tours. Commish and Strikes2K could throw their panties at him, America would love it.

Awesome post. Couldn't agree more. Are you reading this, Politician Spock? Slapdash? Strikes2K? This guy gets it.

If my income and career were being debated, I'd say similar things too. If Major League Baseball were being questioned as being unconstitutional, you'd see a ####load of baseball players making claims that it's not, and how different life would be without it.

WTF are you even talking about? I don't work for the NSA, knob.

Many DoD agencies are going to downsize if/when these programs are found to be unconstitutional. This isn't mutally exclusive to the NSA.

 

[Politician Spock]

Finding a happy medium probably doesn't exist

WTF?!?!

No one is looking for a solution that makes everyone happy. There is already a line the government cannot cross called the constitution. If that line makes the government unhappy, too ####### bad!!! The government has to do it's job without crossing that line.

Stop cherry-picking, you're not very good at it.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Like Hayden said, people are pissed at the NSA for not catching the 9/11 conspiracy and then they are pissed at the NSA because they collect too much information. Finding a happy medium probably doesn't exist but I'll go back to what I said when this first broke: No one gives a #### if you are cheating on your wife or what you ate last night that didn't agree with you. You can't be entirely free in this world, if you want that then move to a country like Sweden that isn't a terrorist target. Oh wait...no, don't move there either.

Government's job is not to make you happy, it's to protect and serve you. The NSA is not the Savak, no one cares if you are a communist or like to dress up like a potato. Commish saying that Snowden might come up dead had he stayed in the U.S. is paranoia and mindless shtick if there was ever such a thing. You don't live in Uzbekistan, Snowden would be treated just like any other person who gave away state secrets like Alrich Ames or Robert Hanssen. If what he gave to reporters and maybe to China and Russia was innocuous, then he'd be a free man and write many books and get on some speaking tours. Commish and Strikes2K could throw their panties at him, America would love it.

Awesome post. Couldn't agree more. Are you reading this, Politician Spock? Slapdash? Strikes2K? This guy gets it.

If my income and career were being debated, I'd say similar things too. If Major League Baseball were being questioned as being unconstitutional, you'd see a ####load of baseball players making claims that it's not, and how different life would be without it.

WTF are you even talking about? I don't work for the NSA, knob.

Many DoD agencies are going to downsize if/when these programs are found to be unconstitutional. This isn't mutally exclusive to the NSA.

I don't work for DoD anymore either Columbo, too bad you have trouble with reading comprehension. Again, if you want to cherry-pick have your facts straight.

 

[Rohn Jambo]

Like Hayden said, people are pissed at the NSA for not catching the 9/11 conspiracy and then they are pissed at the NSA because they collect too much information. Finding a happy medium probably doesn't exist but I'll go back to what I said when this first broke: No one gives a #### if you are cheating on your wife or what you ate last night that didn't agree with you. You can't be entirely free in this world, if you want that then move to a country like Sweden that isn't a terrorist target. Oh wait...no, don't move there either.

Government's job is not to make you happy, it's to protect and serve you. The NSA is not the Savak, no one cares if you are a communist or like to dress up like a potato. Commish saying that Snowden might come up dead had he stayed in the U.S. is paranoia and mindless shtick if there was ever such a thing. You don't live in Uzbekistan, Snowden would be treated just like any other person who gave away state secrets like Alrich Ames or Robert Hanssen. If what he gave to reporters and maybe to China and Russia was innocuous, then he'd be a free man and write many books and get on some speaking tours. Commish and Strikes2K could throw their panties at him, America would love it.

Awesome post. Couldn't agree more. Are you reading this, Politician Spock? Slapdash? Strikes2K? This guy gets it.

If my income and career were being debated, I'd say similar things too. If Major League Baseball were being questioned as being unconstitutional, you'd see a ####load of baseball players making claims that it's not, and how different life would be without it.

WTF are you even talking about? I don't work for the NSA, knob.

Many DoD agencies are going to downsize if/when these programs are found to be unconstitutional. This isn't mutally exclusive to the NSA.

I don't work for DoD anymore either Columbo, too bad you have trouble with reading comprehension. Again, if you want to cherry-pick have your facts straight.

Whose budget do you waste now?

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Like Hayden said, people are pissed at the NSA for not catching the 9/11 conspiracy and then they are pissed at the NSA because they collect too much information. Finding a happy medium probably doesn't exist but I'll go back to what I said when this first broke: No one gives a #### if you are cheating on your wife or what you ate last night that didn't agree with you. You can't be entirely free in this world, if you want that then move to a country like Sweden that isn't a terrorist target. Oh wait...no, don't move there either.

Government's job is not to make you happy, it's to protect and serve you. The NSA is not the Savak, no one cares if you are a communist or like to dress up like a potato. Commish saying that Snowden might come up dead had he stayed in the U.S. is paranoia and mindless shtick if there was ever such a thing. You don't live in Uzbekistan, Snowden would be treated just like any other person who gave away state secrets like Alrich Ames or Robert Hanssen. If what he gave to reporters and maybe to China and Russia was innocuous, then he'd be a free man and write many books and get on some speaking tours. Commish and Strikes2K could throw their panties at him, America would love it.

Awesome post. Couldn't agree more. Are you reading this, Politician Spock? Slapdash? Strikes2K? This guy gets it.

If my income and career were being debated, I'd say similar things too. If Major League Baseball were being questioned as being unconstitutional, you'd see a ####load of baseball players making claims that it's not, and how different life would be without it.

WTF are you even talking about? I don't work for the NSA, knob.

Many DoD agencies are going to downsize if/when these programs are found to be unconstitutional. This isn't mutally exclusive to the NSA.

I don't work for DoD anymore either Columbo, too bad you have trouble with reading comprehension. Again, if you want to cherry-pick have your facts straight.

Whose budge do you waste now?

It's always a battle.

 

[Politician Spock]

Like Hayden said, people are pissed at the NSA for not catching the 9/11 conspiracy and then they are pissed at the NSA because they collect too much information. Finding a happy medium probably doesn't exist but I'll go back to what I said when this first broke: No one gives a #### if you are cheating on your wife or what you ate last night that didn't agree with you. You can't be entirely free in this world, if you want that then move to a country like Sweden that isn't a terrorist target. Oh wait...no, don't move there either.

Government's job is not to make you happy, it's to protect and serve you. The NSA is not the Savak, no one cares if you are a communist or like to dress up like a potato. Commish saying that Snowden might come up dead had he stayed in the U.S. is paranoia and mindless shtick if there was ever such a thing. You don't live in Uzbekistan, Snowden would be treated just like any other person who gave away state secrets like Alrich Ames or Robert Hanssen. If what he gave to reporters and maybe to China and Russia was innocuous, then he'd be a free man and write many books and get on some speaking tours. Commish and Strikes2K could throw their panties at him, America would love it.

Awesome post. Couldn't agree more. Are you reading this, Politician Spock? Slapdash? Strikes2K? This guy gets it.

If my income and career were being debated, I'd say similar things too. If Major League Baseball were being questioned as being unconstitutional, you'd see a ####load of baseball players making claims that it's not, and how different life would be without it.

WTF are you even talking about? I don't work for the NSA, knob.

Many DoD agencies are going to downsize if/when these programs are found to be unconstitutional. This isn't mutally exclusive to the NSA.

I don't work for DoD anymore either Columbo, too bad you have trouble with reading comprehension. Again, if you want to cherry-pick have your facts straight.

How much stock do you own in private companies that sell to the DoD? If Major League Baseball was being questioned as being unconstitutional, the stock holders of Louisville Slugger would be campaigning hard to keep MLB running. You may not be employed by the DoD, but I have a hard time believing your life doesn't benefit financially from these programs. If that offends you, I don't really care.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Like Hayden said, people are pissed at the NSA for not catching the 9/11 conspiracy and then they are pissed at the NSA because they collect too much information. Finding a happy medium probably doesn't exist but I'll go back to what I said when this first broke: No one gives a #### if you are cheating on your wife or what you ate last night that didn't agree with you. You can't be entirely free in this world, if you want that then move to a country like Sweden that isn't a terrorist target. Oh wait...no, don't move there either.

Government's job is not to make you happy, it's to protect and serve you. The NSA is not the Savak, no one cares if you are a communist or like to dress up like a potato. Commish saying that Snowden might come up dead had he stayed in the U.S. is paranoia and mindless shtick if there was ever such a thing. You don't live in Uzbekistan, Snowden would be treated just like any other person who gave away state secrets like Alrich Ames or Robert Hanssen. If what he gave to reporters and maybe to China and Russia was innocuous, then he'd be a free man and write many books and get on some speaking tours. Commish and Strikes2K could throw their panties at him, America would love it.

Awesome post. Couldn't agree more. Are you reading this, Politician Spock? Slapdash? Strikes2K? This guy gets it.

If my income and career were being debated, I'd say similar things too. If Major League Baseball were being questioned as being unconstitutional, you'd see a ####load of baseball players making claims that it's not, and how different life would be without it.

WTF are you even talking about? I don't work for the NSA, knob.

Many DoD agencies are going to downsize if/when these programs are found to be unconstitutional. This isn't mutally exclusive to the NSA.

I don't work for DoD anymore either Columbo, too bad you have trouble with reading comprehension. Again, if you want to cherry-pick have your facts straight.

How much stock do you own in private companies that sell to the DoD? If Major League Baseball was being questioned as being unconstitutional, the stock holders of Louisville Slugger would be campaigning hard to keep MLB running. You may not be employed by the DoD, but I have a hard time believing your life doesn't benefit financially from these programs. If that offends you, I don't really care.

Maybe I have some index funds that invest in defense, not sure.

You're completely out of bounds here, not even sure what your intention is unless looking like a complete ####### is your end-game. If calling you an ####### offends you, I don't really care.

I served my country for twenty years, what have you ever done to defend the constitution besides shooting your fat mouth off on a football forum? I'll hang up and listen.

 

[Joe T]

I served my country for twenty years

Look at me?

 

[Politician Spock]

Like Hayden said, people are pissed at the NSA for not catching the 9/11 conspiracy and then they are pissed at the NSA because they collect too much information. Finding a happy medium probably doesn't exist but I'll go back to what I said when this first broke: No one gives a #### if you are cheating on your wife or what you ate last night that didn't agree with you. You can't be entirely free in this world, if you want that then move to a country like Sweden that isn't a terrorist target. Oh wait...no, don't move there either.

Government's job is not to make you happy, it's to protect and serve you. The NSA is not the Savak, no one cares if you are a communist or like to dress up like a potato. Commish saying that Snowden might come up dead had he stayed in the U.S. is paranoia and mindless shtick if there was ever such a thing. You don't live in Uzbekistan, Snowden would be treated just like any other person who gave away state secrets like Alrich Ames or Robert Hanssen. If what he gave to reporters and maybe to China and Russia was innocuous, then he'd be a free man and write many books and get on some speaking tours. Commish and Strikes2K could throw their panties at him, America would love it.

Awesome post. Couldn't agree more. Are you reading this, Politician Spock? Slapdash? Strikes2K? This guy gets it.

If my income and career were being debated, I'd say similar things too. If Major League Baseball were being questioned as being unconstitutional, you'd see a ####load of baseball players making claims that it's not, and how different life would be without it.

WTF are you even talking about? I don't work for the NSA, knob.

Many DoD agencies are going to downsize if/when these programs are found to be unconstitutional. This isn't mutally exclusive to the NSA.

I don't work for DoD anymore either Columbo, too bad you have trouble with reading comprehension. Again, if you want to cherry-pick have your facts straight.

How much stock do you own in private companies that sell to the DoD? If Major League Baseball was being questioned as being unconstitutional, the stock holders of Louisville Slugger would be campaigning hard to keep MLB running. You may not be employed by the DoD, but I have a hard time believing your life doesn't benefit financially from these programs. If that offends you, I don't really care.

Maybe I have some index funds that invest in defense, not sure.

You're completely out of bounds here, not even sure what your intention is unless looking like a complete ####### is your end-game. If calling you an ####### offends you, I don't really care.

I served my country for twenty years, what have you ever done to defend the constitution besides shooting your fat mouth off on a football forum? I'll hang up and listen.

I'm defending the constitution right now. If you served, then you vowed to defend it. Why then do you defend programs that violate it?

 

[Doctor Detroit]

I served my country for twenty years

Look at me?

Really? I would say you're better than that, but we all know that you aren't.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Like Hayden said, people are pissed at the NSA for not catching the 9/11 conspiracy and then they are pissed at the NSA because they collect too much information. Finding a happy medium probably doesn't exist but I'll go back to what I said when this first broke: No one gives a #### if you are cheating on your wife or what you ate last night that didn't agree with you. You can't be entirely free in this world, if you want that then move to a country like Sweden that isn't a terrorist target. Oh wait...no, don't move there either.

Government's job is not to make you happy, it's to protect and serve you. The NSA is not the Savak, no one cares if you are a communist or like to dress up like a potato. Commish saying that Snowden might come up dead had he stayed in the U.S. is paranoia and mindless shtick if there was ever such a thing. You don't live in Uzbekistan, Snowden would be treated just like any other person who gave away state secrets like Alrich Ames or Robert Hanssen. If what he gave to reporters and maybe to China and Russia was innocuous, then he'd be a free man and write many books and get on some speaking tours. Commish and Strikes2K could throw their panties at him, America would love it.

Awesome post. Couldn't agree more. Are you reading this, Politician Spock? Slapdash? Strikes2K? This guy gets it.

If my income and career were being debated, I'd say similar things too. If Major League Baseball were being questioned as being unconstitutional, you'd see a ####load of baseball players making claims that it's not, and how different life would be without it.

WTF are you even talking about? I don't work for the NSA, knob.

Many DoD agencies are going to downsize if/when these programs are found to be unconstitutional. This isn't mutally exclusive to the NSA.

I don't work for DoD anymore either Columbo, too bad you have trouble with reading comprehension. Again, if you want to cherry-pick have your facts straight.

How much stock do you own in private companies that sell to the DoD? If Major League Baseball was being questioned as being unconstitutional, the stock holders of Louisville Slugger would be campaigning hard to keep MLB running. You may not be employed by the DoD, but I have a hard time believing your life doesn't benefit financially from these programs. If that offends you, I don't really care.

Maybe I have some index funds that invest in defense, not sure.

You're completely out of bounds here, not even sure what your intention is unless looking like a complete ####### is your end-game. If calling you an ####### offends you, I don't really care.

I served my country for twenty years, what have you ever done to defend the constitution besides shooting your fat mouth off on a football forum? I'll hang up and listen.

I'm defending the constitution right now.

No, no you aren't. You're grasping at straws trying to make sense of things you don't understand. I liked that you had to resort to defending your position by cherry-picking then accusing your opponent of profiting from whatever you are against. Well played.

PM Joe T, he needs an Internet friend who makes less sense of things than he does.

 

[Politician Spock]

Like Hayden said, people are pissed at the NSA for not catching the 9/11 conspiracy and then they are pissed at the NSA because they collect too much information. Finding a happy medium probably doesn't exist but I'll go back to what I said when this first broke: No one gives a #### if you are cheating on your wife or what you ate last night that didn't agree with you. You can't be entirely free in this world, if you want that then move to a country like Sweden that isn't a terrorist target. Oh wait...no, don't move there either.

Government's job is not to make you happy, it's to protect and serve you. The NSA is not the Savak, no one cares if you are a communist or like to dress up like a potato. Commish saying that Snowden might come up dead had he stayed in the U.S. is paranoia and mindless shtick if there was ever such a thing. You don't live in Uzbekistan, Snowden would be treated just like any other person who gave away state secrets like Alrich Ames or Robert Hanssen. If what he gave to reporters and maybe to China and Russia was innocuous, then he'd be a free man and write many books and get on some speaking tours. Commish and Strikes2K could throw their panties at him, America would love it.

Awesome post. Couldn't agree more. Are you reading this, Politician Spock? Slapdash? Strikes2K? This guy gets it.

If my income and career were being debated, I'd say similar things too. If Major League Baseball were being questioned as being unconstitutional, you'd see a ####load of baseball players making claims that it's not, and how different life would be without it.

WTF are you even talking about? I don't work for the NSA, knob.

Many DoD agencies are going to downsize if/when these programs are found to be unconstitutional. This isn't mutally exclusive to the NSA.

I don't work for DoD anymore either Columbo, too bad you have trouble with reading comprehension. Again, if you want to cherry-pick have your facts straight.

How much stock do you own in private companies that sell to the DoD? If Major League Baseball was being questioned as being unconstitutional, the stock holders of Louisville Slugger would be campaigning hard to keep MLB running. You may not be employed by the DoD, but I have a hard time believing your life doesn't benefit financially from these programs. If that offends you, I don't really care.

Maybe I have some index funds that invest in defense, not sure.

You're completely out of bounds here, not even sure what your intention is unless looking like a complete ####### is your end-game. If calling you an ####### offends you, I don't really care.

I served my country for twenty years, what have you ever done to defend the constitution besides shooting your fat mouth off on a football forum? I'll hang up and listen.

I'm defending the constitution right now.

No, no you aren't. You're grasping at straws trying to make sense of things you don't understand. I liked that you had to resort to defending your position by cherry-picking then accusing your opponent of profiting from whatever you are against. Well played.

PM Joe T, he needs an Internet friend who makes less sense of things than he does.

Good job deleting the question I asked. That's easier than admiting you're breaking your vow to defend the constitution by defending programs that violate it.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Good job deleting the question I asked. That's easier than admiting you're breaking your vow to defend the constitution by defending programs that violate it.

You really need a new avatar, logic is really not your strong-suit.

 

[Short Corner]

I served my country government for twenty years

 

[Doctor Detroit]

I served my country government for twenty years

What's the difference? Is this a Joe T unfunny semantics game?

 

[fatness]

I served my country government for twenty years

What's the difference? Is this a Joe T unfunny semantics game?

There's a big fat difference between serving the country and serving the government. This country's government has grown so big and extensive, and so much of the country's economy has grown dependent on it, that the government's first and foremost job has become defending itself.

If these programs are all constitutional and beneficial to the country, they would have been explained to the American people as they were put in place, or before. Instead they're put in place in silence, in secret, through paid partnerships with large businesses, through circumvention of existing technology and laws. And when they're explained at all it is by way of lies to Congress.

That's not serving the people of this country.

 

[The Commish]

I'm really hoping there's some major shticking it up going on

Genuine question to try and get back on track here. Do we have examples of a similar "security breach" where an internal employee was able to successfully use the "channels" in place to expose gov't overreach while letting the American people know something had happened? Or is this Snowden incident the first of it's kind ever?

 

[Doctor Detroit]

I served my country government for twenty years

What's the difference? Is this a Joe T unfunny semantics game?

There's a big fat difference between serving the country and serving the government. This country's government has grown so big and extensive, and so much of the country's economy has grown dependent on it, that the government's first and foremost job has become defending itself.

If these programs are all constitutional and beneficial to the country, they would have been explained to the American people as they were put in place, or before. Instead they're put in place in silence, in secret, through paid partnerships with large businesses, through circumvention of existing technology and laws. And when they're explained at all it is by way of lies to Congress.

That's not serving the people of this country.

Ok, but how is that related to me? Joe t and Spock have accused me of profiting somehow because of my opinions on Snowden, and short Corner now seems to be saying those who are war veterans only served their government.Maybe you guys want to huddle and get your stories straight or stop quoting my posts.

 

[JZilla]

About what I figured this thread would devolve into.. ignorant, paranoid yokels insulting the integrity of federal employees and even veterans.

 

[Mr. Pickles]

Is this a "happened on Obama's watch" thing? I'm having a hard time understanding the opinions in here. It would at least make a bit more sense if so.

 

[JZilla]

It really shows how ignorant you are when you continually complain about how the NSA seems to be primarily concerned with security. I tried to get into this, and I blame myself for not using small enough words.

 

[The Commish]

About what I figured this thread would devolve into.. ignorant, paranoid yokels insulting the integrity of federal employees and even veterans.

Are you talking about the people who are afraid Snowden has millions of documents that are going to reduce the US Gov't to rubble or the people who are ok with less "protection" if it means not stepping on the Constitution and dragging it through the mud when you use "paranoid yokels"?

I think I made my position clear to anyone who really wants to understand it. I've had my share of dealings with the CIA and NSA when it comes to their technology. Though I never worked for them, I've seen the posters. I've seen the communications (more so in the CIA). I've just never really seen them in action. Given my pessimism for our government based on it's entire body of work, I think one can at least understand where I'm coming from even if one doesn't agree with me.

 

[StrikeS2k]

About what I figured this thread would devolve into.. ignorant, paranoid yokels insulting the integrity of federal employees and even veterans.

Only really a few active posters at this point. But when the best response you guys have to actual documents showing organizations trampling on our constitutional rights is "We know what's best for you. Let us do our jobs. You don't deserve to have a clue as to what's going on or any justification for it", what do you really expect?

 

[JZilla]

You guys are right, from now on every national security program should first be vetted through an online poll. Since we can't trust the government maybe we'll just have Facebook handle that part?

Better yet, just dismantle the federal government completely. I'm sure big business will protect us as they are much more trustworthy and open.

 

[JZilla]

Tell me I didn't defend my country while you sit there in your easy chair talking #### you know nothing about. I tried to discuss this in a civil fashion last week and got nowhere, predictably. The administration you elected passed the laws that enabled these programs to be enacted, in front of everyone, and you only want to attack the people who are doing their jobs, because it's easier for you to coalesce in your tiny twisted brains. Yes we are all out to get you.

I'll be offline for a while because my daughter graduates high school today, then we have to initiate her into the new world order.. It's this whole big thing.