Espn reporting Goodell confirmed Patriots using camera (1 Viewer)

[David Yudkin]

If the Pats get reamed on this one and I'm Bob Kraft, I'm telling the commish that I will be investigating all 31 franchises and to expect a full report on what covert operations they are engaged in. And I'd convey that I expect similar penalties handed out to those teams just like they did to my own when I provide clear and concise evidence that shows what they are doing.

That of course assumes Bob Kraft hasn't already had sanctions leveled his way and can still be involved in the operations of the team.It also assumes that the league doesn't preemptively put a moratorium on such play ground retaliatory drama.

The former may be a likely assumption, but the latter seems a very unlikely one. Once this thing is done, the league office is going to make sure it is done and dies a quiet death.

IMO, people are kidding themselves that stuff like this doesn't go on all the time, whether it be on game day, at practice, in scouting, at other games, etc. The same exact thing may not happen, but thise thinking this will all come to a dead stop univerally are kidding themselves.The Pats got caught. I'm sure there are other teams not conforming to all the rules, some how, some way. It could be salary cap wise, injury report wise, how many media passes are handed out, using still cameras from across the the stadium, things will continue to go on.

The fact that the Pats are alledged to have done stuff like this for years to me indicates that other teams had to have been doing something or else teams would have turned them in. What other reason would there be for all these teams that are lining up now pointing fingers at NE to NOT have filed complaints when all these incidents were to have taken place? Either they were serious about them cheating or they just didn't care.

Putting things into context, if I have a fantasy league mate dead to rights for cheating, I'm turning him him. Sorry, I want to win and if someone breaks the rules I will take them to task.

By NOT making formal complaints to the league, IMO, NFL teams were effectively condoning the cheating. I don't see how it could be this HUGE ORDEAL for them now when they didn't bother to report it and press the issue before, especially when from I've been reading many teams said they knew the Pats were doing it.

Again, I am not making excuses for the Pats, nor am I condoning their behavior, but I think the fact that all these other franchises did very little to stop it and now are screaming about it seems very strange to me.

What here is inconsistent? If the Pats are found to have violated the rules, they should be punished. If other teams are found to have broken the rules, they also should be punished. I'm not suggesting that the Pats should get special treatment. And I'm not buying that the Pats "interpretation" to the rule should get them off the hook.

 

[jonessed]

If the Pats get reamed on this one and I'm Bob Kraft, I'm telling the commish that I will be investigating all 31 franchises and to expect a full report on what covert operations they are engaged in. And I'd convey that I expect similar penalties handed out to those teams just like they did to my own when I provide clear and concise evidence that shows what they are doing.

That of course assumes Bob Kraft hasn't already had sanctions leveled his way and can still be involved in the operations of the team.It also assumes that the league doesn't preemptively put a moratorium on such play ground retaliatory drama.

The former may be a likely assumption, but the latter seems a very unlikely one. Once this thing is done, the league office is going to make sure it is done and dies a quiet death.

IMO, people are kidding themselves that stuff like this doesn't go on all the time, whether it be on game day, at practice, in scouting, at other games, etc. The same exact thing may not happen, but thise thinking this will all come to a dead stop univerally are kidding themselves.The Pats got caught. I'm sure there are other teams not conforming to all the rules, some how, some way. It could be salary cap wise, injury report wise, how many media passes are handed out, using still cameras from across the the stadium, things will continue to go on.

The fact that the Pats are alledged to have done stuff like this for years to me indicates that other teams had to have been doing something or else teams would have turned them in. What other reason would there be for all these teams that are lining up now pointing fingers at NE to NOT have filed complaints when all these incidents were to have taken place? Either they were serious about them cheating or they just didn't care.

Putting things into context, if I have a fantasy league mate dead to rights for cheating, I'm turning him him. Sorry, I want to win and if someone breaks the rules I will take them to task.

By NOT making formal complaints to the league, IMO, NFL teams were effectively condoning the cheating. I don't see how it could be this HUGE ORDEAL for them now when they didn't bother to report it and press the issue before, especially when from I've been reading many teams said they knew the Pats were doing it.

Again, I am not making excuses for the Pats, nor am I condoning their behavior, but I think the fact that all these other franchises did very little to stop it and now are screaming about it seems very strange to me.

What here is inconsistent? If the Pats are found to have violated the rules, they should be punished. If other teams are found to have broken the rules, they also should be punished. I'm not suggesting that the Pats should get special treatment. And I'm not buying that the Pats "interpretation" to the rule should get them off the hook.

By insinuating that every team cheats and they all condoned cheating you are making an excuse for the Patriots as to why they cheated.

 

[David Yudkin]

If the Pats get reamed on this one and I'm Bob Kraft, I'm telling the commish that I will be investigating all 31 franchises and to expect a full report on what covert operations they are engaged in. And I'd convey that I expect similar penalties handed out to those teams just like they did to my own when I provide clear and concise evidence that shows what they are doing.

That of course assumes Bob Kraft hasn't already had sanctions leveled his way and can still be involved in the operations of the team.It also assumes that the league doesn't preemptively put a moratorium on such play ground retaliatory drama.

The former may be a likely assumption, but the latter seems a very unlikely one. Once this thing is done, the league office is going to make sure it is done and dies a quiet death.

IMO, people are kidding themselves that stuff like this doesn't go on all the time, whether it be on game day, at practice, in scouting, at other games, etc. The same exact thing may not happen, but thise thinking this will all come to a dead stop univerally are kidding themselves.The Pats got caught. I'm sure there are other teams not conforming to all the rules, some how, some way. It could be salary cap wise, injury report wise, how many media passes are handed out, using still cameras from across the the stadium, things will continue to go on.

The fact that the Pats are alledged to have done stuff like this for years to me indicates that other teams had to have been doing something or else teams would have turned them in. What other reason would there be for all these teams that are lining up now pointing fingers at NE to NOT have filed complaints when all these incidents were to have taken place? Either they were serious about them cheating or they just didn't care.

Putting things into context, if I have a fantasy league mate dead to rights for cheating, I'm turning him him. Sorry, I want to win and if someone breaks the rules I will take them to task.

By NOT making formal complaints to the league, IMO, NFL teams were effectively condoning the cheating. I don't see how it could be this HUGE ORDEAL for them now when they didn't bother to report it and press the issue before, especially when from I've been reading many teams said they knew the Pats were doing it.

Again, I am not making excuses for the Pats, nor am I condoning their behavior, but I think the fact that all these other franchises did very little to stop it and now are screaming about it seems very strange to me.

What here is inconsistent? If the Pats are found to have violated the rules, they should be punished. If other teams are found to have broken the rules, they also should be punished. I'm not suggesting that the Pats should get special treatment. And I'm not buying that the Pats "interpretation" to the rule should get them off the hook.

By insinuating that every team cheats and they all condoned cheating you are making an excuse for the Patriots as to why they cheated.

No. If I said the Pats should not be penalized because everyone else is cheating that would be making excuses.For example, if I were driving 80 mph and got caught, I could say to the cop that everyone else was doing it so I shouldn't get tagged for speeding. But if I take my ticket and tell the cop that everyone else is speeding so now go tag everyone else, how am I making excuses?

 

[Gr00vus]

I think the fact that all these other franchises did very little to stop it and now are screaming about it seems very strange to me.

It seems pretty clear to me. There's a bit of don't ask don't tell going on for sure. However, of the anecdotes mentioned, only the Packers seemed to have anything like real evidence, and they didn't feel like ratting as their evidence wasn't as solid and they didn't want to sound like whiners after losing 35-0. Enter the whole Pats/Jets bitterness and you have a ready explanation for the exposition in this case. I almost feel like Mangini set a trap for his old coach, knowing the Pats did this, he just laid back, let everyone know what to watch for and then caught them red handed and called the cops.Everyone may be doing something similar (but you know what, I'm honestly not completely sold on that in itself) - but I bet no one else is doing this the way the Pats have and that's why it's getting the spotlight now. They've taken this form of cheating to a different level it seems, after being explicitly warned not to do this. And for that they're going to be made an example of. I don't know to what degree, but they will be used to serve notice to the rest of the league about this kind of stuff, with the upshot being that teams will lay off it, thus making it very difficult for your scenario of vengeful Kraft ratting out the rest of the league for this. For other infractions, who knows, but I'd bet there will be fines handed out for those going on public witch hunts and thereby further tarnishing the league's reputation.

 

[Gold Plated Nails]

If the Pats get reamed on this one and I'm Bob Kraft, I'm telling the commish that I will be investigating all 31 franchises and to expect a full report on what covert operations they are engaged in. And I'd convey that I expect similar penalties handed out to those teams just like they did to my own when I provide clear and concise evidence that shows what they are doing.

I can't wait until the full details come out on this, and you know someone that hates BB is going to spill the entire pot of beans on him(cheating from years past), and he deserves everything he gets. Don't cry because BB got caught, he was so damn arrogant, it was just a matter of time....

I don't like BB at all and agree that his management style, tactics, personna, etc. are very poor. But if others are doing the same or similar things and that can be proven, they should have to face the same fate.

If you listen to other coaches, specifically the video on nfl.com, most sound as if they have never even heard of this. Listen to Jeff Fisher specifically. I think you are overstating the everyone else must be doing.

 

[jonessed]

If the Pats get reamed on this one and I'm Bob Kraft, I'm telling the commish that I will be investigating all 31 franchises and to expect a full report on what covert operations they are engaged in. And I'd convey that I expect similar penalties handed out to those teams just like they did to my own when I provide clear and concise evidence that shows what they are doing.

That of course assumes Bob Kraft hasn't already had sanctions leveled his way and can still be involved in the operations of the team.It also assumes that the league doesn't preemptively put a moratorium on such play ground retaliatory drama.

The former may be a likely assumption, but the latter seems a very unlikely one. Once this thing is done, the league office is going to make sure it is done and dies a quiet death.

IMO, people are kidding themselves that stuff like this doesn't go on all the time, whether it be on game day, at practice, in scouting, at other games, etc. The same exact thing may not happen, but thise thinking this will all come to a dead stop univerally are kidding themselves.The Pats got caught. I'm sure there are other teams not conforming to all the rules, some how, some way. It could be salary cap wise, injury report wise, how many media passes are handed out, using still cameras from across the the stadium, things will continue to go on.

The fact that the Pats are alledged to have done stuff like this for years to me indicates that other teams had to have been doing something or else teams would have turned them in. What other reason would there be for all these teams that are lining up now pointing fingers at NE to NOT have filed complaints when all these incidents were to have taken place? Either they were serious about them cheating or they just didn't care.

Putting things into context, if I have a fantasy league mate dead to rights for cheating, I'm turning him him. Sorry, I want to win and if someone breaks the rules I will take them to task.

By NOT making formal complaints to the league, IMO, NFL teams were effectively condoning the cheating. I don't see how it could be this HUGE ORDEAL for them now when they didn't bother to report it and press the issue before, especially when from I've been reading many teams said they knew the Pats were doing it.

Again, I am not making excuses for the Pats, nor am I condoning their behavior, but I think the fact that all these other franchises did very little to stop it and now are screaming about it seems very strange to me.

What here is inconsistent? If the Pats are found to have violated the rules, they should be punished. If other teams are found to have broken the rules, they also should be punished. I'm not suggesting that the Pats should get special treatment. And I'm not buying that the Pats "interpretation" to the rule should get them off the hook.

By insinuating that every team cheats and they all condoned cheating you are making an excuse for the Patriots as to why they cheated.

No. If I said the Pats should not be penalized because everyone else is cheating that would be making excuses.For example, if I were driving 80 mph and got caught, I could say to the cop that everyone else was doing it so I shouldn't get tagged for speeding. But if I take my ticket and tell the cop that everyone else is speeding so now go tag everyone else, how am I making excuses?

I still see that as making an excuse, but there really is no point in arguing it further

 

[switz]

I think the fact that all these other franchises did very little to stop it and now are screaming about it seems very strange to me.

It seems pretty clear to me. There's a bit of don't ask don't tell going on for sure. Of the anecdotes mentioned, only the Packers seemed to have anything like real evidence, and they didn't feel like ratting as their evidence wasn't as solid and they didn't want to sound like whiners after losing 35-0. Enter the whole Pats/Jets bitterness and you have a ready explanation for the exposition in this case. I almost feel like Mangini set a trap for his old coach, knowing the Pats did this, he just laid back, let everyone know what to watch for and then caught them red handed and called the cops.

Everyone may be doing something similar (but you know what, I'm honestly not completely sold on that in itself) - but I bet no one else is doing this the way the Pats have and that's why it's getting the spotlight now. They've taken this form of cheating to a different level it seems, after being explicitly warned not to do this. And for that they're going to be made an example of. I don't know to what degree, but they will be used to serve notice to the rest of the league about this kind of stuff, with the upshot being that teams will lay off it, thus making it very difficult for your scenario of vengeful Kraft ratting out the rest of the league for this. For other infractions, who knows, but I'd bet there will be fines handed out for those going on public witch hunts and thereby further tarnishing the league's reputation.

Every team tries to get an edge, looking at tendencies, even studying body language and calls associated with it... that's like reading someone's tell in poker. It's very different that having a camera on your opponents cards (to carry the poker analogy) feeding you info about their hand.

 

[BusMan]

If the Pats get reamed on this one and I'm Bob Kraft, I'm telling the commish that I will be investigating all 31 franchises and to expect a full report on what covert operations they are engaged in. And I'd convey that I expect similar penalties handed out to those teams just like they did to my own when I provide clear and concise evidence that shows what they are doing.

But the Pats are taking a PR hit here, and I don't think this tact will help in that regard. Best to take the hit, swallow it down, and maybe drink off the headache while polishing their three Lombardis.

 

[rascal]

The problem is that there isn't proof of other teams doing it. Until there is the discussion is mute.

IMO previous years has no bearing on this, because the league policy came out this offseason explicitly saying not to this exact thing. The Patriots then when out and did it going against the commish's direct policy. IMO that's a slap in his face directly, and I wouldn't be surprised to see the Pats get punished pretty harsly.

 

[switz]

If the Pats get reamed on this one and I'm Bob Kraft, I'm telling the commish that I will be investigating all 31 franchises and to expect a full report on what covert operations they are engaged in. And I'd convey that I expect similar penalties handed out to those teams just like they did to my own when I provide clear and concise evidence that shows what they are doing.

But the Pats are taking a PR hit here, and I don't think this tact will help in that regard. Best to take the hit, swallow it down, and maybe drink off the headache while polishing their three Lombardis.

If I were Goodell and Kraft said that, I'd tell him, every investigation into another team will be viewed as continuation of the spying you've already been caught committing, and further fines and punishments will be levied.

 

[yabahos]

I think it is funny to read editorials this a.m. from both the Providence Journal and NY Times. Noone except Pats fans here are trying to justify Belichick's actions. Players, other coaches, GMs, and the press are all lining up against the Pats. Don't you all find it funny that not a single player, coach or GM from the 31 other teams is saying "Yeah, the Pats have been known for this, but so have other teams."

This is not true. NFL Live just had a feature on this, and Golic and Salisbury were unanimous in saying that this was not that big a deal. Keyshawn said this happens all the time. The former players, for the most part, seem to be saying that this is commonplace. It should come as no surprise that current players are keeping their mouths shut. If you were the head coach of a team that also did this, would you want your players to say, guys, come on, we do this all the time? Of course not.

Mp3 file to Adam Scheffler on the Dennis and Callahan show on WEEI this morning - in Boston - where he says that 10 other teams are known to do this. Difference is that they aren't flaunting it like Belicheck did. Its a 19+ minute interview and the part in question is between 4:20 and somewhere around 6:00 minutes. Although I recommend listening to the whole thing - its pretty good stuff. Also can be found on WEEI.com if for some reason the link dies.link

He's not the only one reporting this - others have said as much -

1) Tuna on ESPN either Monday or Tuesday night

2) Golic yesterday on Mike&Mike between 8:30 and 9:30 reported that Edsall (UConn HC and former Jax assistant) said the video taping of signs was more prevalent than people believed and Edsall had personal knowledge. Golic referenced an article in the Hartford Courant but I couldn't locate anything on line - possibly its in a print copy since ESPN is in CT.

3) Golic yesterday also said that Peter King indicated a number of his sources reported similarily - i.e. its more prevalent than people believe.

4) Then there's the GB guy that said "they didn't report the Pats because of the code of silence around such matters." Why have a code of silence if it is only one team?

Here's a link to where Chadiha quotes NFL Sources that say this thing is extremely rare -

link

As an aside on the right side of the page under audio there is an audio link titled Salisbury: Story blown out of proportion. You have to be an ESPN insider (which I am not) to get the download but it might shed some light on what Salisbury's official position on the matter.

So obviously there is information both for and against the argument about other teams are doing it. All the stuff I've seen leads me to believe that Schefter is pretty accurate with his 10 team number. That's about 1/3 of the league. Depending on who you talk with for your un-named sources you might get differing opinions on how prevalent this is in the NFL. Get a guy that was on a coaching staff that does it and they are going to say its prevalent in the league - on the other hand get a guy from a team that isn't doing it and you get a completely differing opinion. Also maybe this is tied to a certain coaching tree - Tuna, Belicheck, Edsall who coached under Coughlin all are decendant from the Parcells coaching tree. Maybe it goes back even farther to Ron Erhardt or Ray Perkins.

As to why people aren't defending BB - I think its obvious. Everyone hates the guy in real life - he sounds like he is a real jackarse to people and now he's paying the price. The media hates him because he doesn't give them anything of value (its gotten to the point that the Boston media can pretty much do his press conferences for him), his aloofness is well documented, and when you don't have many friends (Shanahan and Nick Saban are two guys that have gotten compliments from him) you aren't going to have people defending you.

He deserves what he gets given the blatant disregard for the rules and the way he was flaunting it but I think if he were a more personable guy - Tony Dungy or Herm Edwards comes to mind - you might actually have someone willing to say - Others in the league are doing it.

 

[rascal]

If the Pats get reamed on this one and I'm Bob Kraft, I'm telling the commish that I will be investigating all 31 franchises and to expect a full report on what covert operations they are engaged in. And I'd convey that I expect similar penalties handed out to those teams just like they did to my own when I provide clear and concise evidence that shows what they are doing.

If I'm the commish I tell him go ahead. If other teams are breaking a policy that I explicitly laid out then they will be punished as well.

 

[BusMan]

If the Pats get reamed on this one and I'm Bob Kraft, I'm telling the commish that I will be investigating all 31 franchises and to expect a full report on what covert operations they are engaged in. And I'd convey that I expect similar penalties handed out to those teams just like they did to my own when I provide clear and concise evidence that shows what they are doing.

But the Pats are taking a PR hit here, and I don't think this tact will help in that regard. Best to take the hit, swallow it down, and maybe drink off the headache while polishing their three Lombardis.

Additionally, the anecdotal evidence surrounding Belichick is such that the rest of the league doesn't care for him too much. Kraft shouldn't seek to anchor himself more deeply to BB in this regard, especially if he is interested in permanently amicable relationships throughout the league. I'd guess owners (sans Al Davis) care about this stuff much more than players, coaches, and other personnel.

 

[David Yudkin]

My overall point was that it would not surprise me that each team in the league is doing something they shouldn't be . . . it may not be apples to apples by videotaping defensive signals, but I bet teams know or suspect what others are doing. Will it ever get to the point where they openly rat each other out? Who knows. I doubt it will, but the Jets seemed to do a good job in putting the thumb screws to the Pats.

 

[Gr00vus]

Every team tries to get an edge, looking at tendencies, even studying body language and calls associated with it... that's like reading someone's tell in poker. It's very different that having a camera on your opponents cards (to carry the poker analogy) feeding you info about their hand.

Exactly, the Pats have taken garden variety cheating to a totally different place. Now it doesn't matter that you've got three coaches giving signals, only one of which is true. With all being recorded, it's nearly child's play to figure out which one is the one to pay attention to and have the defense's calls from there on out. And after a while most additional counter measures become impossible given time constraints. The only virtually foolproof way to avoid this is to send the plays in with players, and that presents a whole different set of problems for the defense.This kind of cheating really is a degree above most others in its disruption of the competitive balance in game. And if this is found to be used in combination with illegal radio signalling (that shoe has yet to drop one way or another), people will need to be put on permanent vacation.Think about this. Pete Rose has been cut completely out of anything related to pro ball for betting on games, and thereby calling into question his integrity in regards to competing honestly and not corrupting the outcomes of games. In this case, if the allegations are true and far reaching you've got a much more pervasive and disruptive activity going on that definitely affects the outcomes of games. In light of that I'd have to believe the perpetrators would be removed from pro ball for life. We'd have to go much farther along to get to that point, but it's out there.

 

[Shrek]

It could be anything from a fine of $20 to 3 draft picks and suspensions. All I'm saying is I think most are going to be disappointed because of how the rule can be and was interpreted.

AWESOME - someone who has read the entire rule and can fill us in on how it can be interpreted.Please expand on this b/c I have not been able to find a copy of the rule in its entirety. I've only found the snippets in the papers and BB's statement that he interpreted it wrongly.

I don't think he ever said he interpreted it "wrongly" He said it was interpretation. That's different. There was no contrition or admittal of guilt. There was an acknowledgement of the taping, a reference to discussing interpretation, and an apology for any issues this was causing. I think they still feel they are within rules EVEN if it's a technicality. We'll probably never know with confirmation what the Patriots argument was.

'Really? That is good news for the Pats. I would like you to expand on the technicality and the possible interpretation - was it because it was a day game? Or maybe because it was the second Sunday so the rule doesn't apply? I am genuinely curious to know what the possible interpretation and/or technicality could have been - oh, and most importantly - what the technicality might have been that will allow the Pats and BB to escape punishment when the league is clearly treating this very seriously.

You are getting on my nerves. Please read every post I've written again. SLOWLY. Calm yourself down and look for an instance where I said "The Patriots are going to escape punishment" Find that part for me, Eric. I am well aware the "league is treating this very seriously." Especially since Chris Mortensen says so. Everything else is speculation from writers who want to see him hung and shot. I am trying to tell you that the PUNISHMENT YOU SO DESPERATELY WANT TO SEE IS NOT GOING TO BE AS BAD AS YOU OR MANY OTHER OF YOUR FORUM SUPPORTERS WOULD LIKE IT TO BE. There is more as you stated yourself to the actual rule. The are portions of text that you will need to find for yourself. I am not providing you with my sources. If you are a smart person you can research it yourself. I don't know what they argument is specifically. But I know this proverbial hammer isn't going to fall as you wish. Enjoy the basement.

LOFLWhen logic starts failing, abandon the civilized discussion and start in with the arrogance and patronizing attitude again. You don't know any more than anyone else if the "punishment isn't going to be as bad as you or many other would like it to be". If you tone down the toolishness your points will carry more weight. HTH

 

[yabahos]

If you listen to other coaches, specifically the video on nfl.com, most sound as if they have never even heard of this. Listen to Jeff Fisher specifically. I think you are overstating the everyone else must be doing.

What Fisher says on camera may be different than what Fisher would say as an anonymous source. He is part of the Competition Committee for the NFL. Its basically his job to make sure everyone is playing on a a level field and no one has a "competitive edge"He may very well be right in his statements - but on camera - in this situation - he is wearing his "Competition Committee" hat and will likely temper his comments with that in mind. Think of from the reverse side - if he knew about this or even heard a rumor about it - could he even hint at it and expect to remain part of the Competition Committee. I doubt it.

 

[rascal]

By ROB MURRAY, AP Sports Writer

PARIS - The McLaren team was fined $100 million and stripped of its points in the constructors' standings Thursday in the spying scandal that has rocked the sport.

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/2...98jxWJh_66OA--

McLaren F1 team chief Ron Dennis is surrounded by journalists as he leaves the Automobile International Federation (FIA) headquarters, in Paris, Thursday, Sept. 13, 2007. Dennis faced the World Motor Sports Council who were meeting to decide whether to sanction the McLaren team in the spy scandal that has rocked Formula One.(AP Photo/Christophe Ena)

McLaren, which leads the current drivers' and constructors' standings, was punished by the World Motor Sports Council for allegedly using leaked secret technical documents belonging to F1 rival Ferrari.

Team drivers Lewis Hamilton and Fernando Alonso, currently 1-2 in the championship standings, were not punished and can continue to compete for the season title.

"Ferrari is satisfied that the truth has now emerged," the Italian team said in a statement.

The $100 million penalty includes McLaren's expected loss of income, and McLaren still could be penalized for the 2008 championship, FIA said in a statement after a hearing.

"We have never denied that the information from Ferrari was in the personal possession of one of our employees at his home," McLaren team chief Ron Dennis said. "The issue is: was this information used by McLaren? This is not the case and has not been proven today."

McLaren escaped the harshest possible penalty, as FIA could have kicked the team and its drivers out of the 2007 and 2008 championships. In December, FIA will decide on any possible sanctions against McLaren for the 2008 season.

FIA said it did not penalize McLaren's drivers "due to exceptional circumstances" because they provided evidence in exchange for immunity.

CONT.

 

[yabahos]

My overall point was that it would not surprise me that each team in the league is doing something they shouldn't be . . . it may not be apples to apples by videotaping defensive signals, but I bet teams know or suspect what others are doing. Will it ever get to the point where they openly rat each other out? Who knows. I doubt it will, but the Jets seemed to do a good job in putting the thumb screws to the Pats.

Absolutely not. This fiasco is going away after the judgement is handed down and my guess is that this is the last we hear about it. Others people may be caught doing something similar but it will not be handled as publicly as this situation. With everything that the league has gone through in bad PR since the Super Bowl - I'd think that the commish will make it very clear that this is the last "john q public" hears about stuff like this. Its bad for business and we are talking about billions here.

 

[NYCGangGreen]

I'd never have guessed that people pay attention to Sean Salisbury, but after reading some of the responses (ie: every team does this in some way, this is a non issue, there should be a limited penalty if any), I can now conclude, that idiot who was a terrible QB and even worse analyst has managed to permeate the minds of some of the people on the boards.

 

[sts911911]

My overall point was that it would not surprise me that each team in the league is doing something they shouldn't be . . . it may not be apples to apples by videotaping defensive signals, but I bet teams know or suspect what others are doing. Will it ever get to the point where they openly rat each other out? Who knows. I doubt it will, but the Jets seemed to do a good job in putting the thumb screws to the Pats.

Quit making excuses, it's not the Jets fault the pats cheated...

 

[NYCGangGreen]

My overall point was that it would not surprise me that each team in the league is doing something they shouldn't be . . . it may not be apples to apples by videotaping defensive signals, but I bet teams know or suspect what others are doing. Will it ever get to the point where they openly rat each other out? Who knows. I doubt it will, but the Jets seemed to do a good job in putting the thumb screws to the Pats.

Quit making excuses, it's not the Jets fault the pats cheated...

Airlines look for weapons/terror threats right? People know this....so when someone gets caught, is it fair for them to say "but other people are doing it too!!1" when he gets CAUGHT and knows they will be looking for it????Man, the Pats got caught breaking a rule.....if other teams were doing it.....if and when they get caught they will be penalized, but as it stands today, New England is the only team dumb enough to do it week 1, in a rivals stadium, when the commish said he didn't want it happening.WTF am I missing here????

 

[BigSteelThrill]

If the Pats get reamed on this one and I'm Bob Kraft, I'm telling the commish that I will be investigating all 31 franchises and to expect a full report on what covert operations they are engaged in. And I'd convey that I expect similar penalties handed out to those teams just like they did to my own when I provide clear and concise evidence that shows what they are doing.

That of course assumes Bob Kraft hasn't already had sanctions leveled his way and can still be involved in the operations of the team.It also assumes that the league doesn't preemptively put a moratorium on such play ground retaliatory drama.

The former may be a likely assumption, but the latter seems a very unlikely one. Once this thing is done, the league office is going to make sure it is done and dies a quiet death.

IMO, people are kidding themselves that stuff like this doesn't go on all the time, whether it be on game day, at practice, in scouting, at other games, etc. The same exact thing may not happen, but thise thinking this will all come to a dead stop univerally are kidding themselves.The Pats got caught. I'm sure there are other teams not conforming to all the rules, some how, some way. It could be salary cap wise, injury report wise, how many media passes are handed out, using still cameras from across the the stadium, things will continue to go on.

The fact that the Pats are alledged to have done stuff like this for years to me indicates that other teams had to have been doing something or else teams would have turned them in. What other reason would there be for all these teams that are lining up now pointing fingers at NE to NOT have filed complaints when all these incidents were to have taken place? Either they were serious about them cheating or they just didn't care.

Putting things into context, if I have a fantasy league mate dead to rights for cheating, I'm turning him him. Sorry, I want to win and if someone breaks the rules I will take them to task.

By NOT making formal complaints to the league, IMO, NFL teams were effectively condoning the cheating. I don't see how it could be this HUGE ORDEAL for them now when they didn't bother to report it and press the issue before, especially when from I've been reading many teams said they knew the Pats were doing it.

Again, I am not making excuses for the Pats, nor am I condoning their behavior, but I think the fact that all these other franchises did very little to stop it and now are screaming about it seems very strange to me.

What here is inconsistent? If the Pats are found to have violated the rules, they should be punished. If other teams are found to have broken the rules, they also should be punished. I'm not suggesting that the Pats should get special treatment. And I'm not buying that the Pats "interpretation" to the rule should get them off the hook.

By insinuating that every team cheats and they all condoned cheating you are making an excuse for the Patriots as to why they cheated.

Pretty simple. Its how his writing reads. Intentional or not.

 

[Sheriff66]

If the Pats get reamed on this one and I'm Bob Kraft, I'm telling the commish that I will be investigating all 31 franchises and to expect a full report on what covert operations they are engaged in. And I'd convey that I expect similar penalties handed out to those teams just like they did to my own when I provide clear and concise evidence that shows what they are doing.

That of course assumes Bob Kraft hasn't already had sanctions leveled his way and can still be involved in the operations of the team.It also assumes that the league doesn't preemptively put a moratorium on such play ground retaliatory drama.

The former may be a likely assumption, but the latter seems a very unlikely one. Once this thing is done, the league office is going to make sure it is done and dies a quiet death.

IMO, people are kidding themselves that stuff like this doesn't go on all the time, whether it be on game day, at practice, in scouting, at other games, etc. The same exact thing may not happen, but thise thinking this will all come to a dead stop univerally are kidding themselves.The Pats got caught. I'm sure there are other teams not conforming to all the rules, some how, some way. It could be salary cap wise, injury report wise, how many media passes are handed out, using still cameras from across the the stadium, things will continue to go on.

The fact that the Pats are alledged to have done stuff like this for years to me indicates that other teams had to have been doing something or else teams would have turned them in. What other reason would there be for all these teams that are lining up now pointing fingers at NE to NOT have filed complaints when all these incidents were to have taken place? Either they were serious about them cheating or they just didn't care.

Putting things into context, if I have a fantasy league mate dead to rights for cheating, I'm turning him him. Sorry, I want to win and if someone breaks the rules I will take them to task.

By NOT making formal complaints to the league, IMO, NFL teams were effectively condoning the cheating. I don't see how it could be this HUGE ORDEAL for them now when they didn't bother to report it and press the issue before, especially when from I've been reading many teams said they knew the Pats were doing it.

Again, I am not making excuses for the Pats, nor am I condoning their behavior, but I think the fact that all these other franchises did very little to stop it and now are screaming about it seems very strange to me.

What here is inconsistent? If the Pats are found to have violated the rules, they should be punished. If other teams are found to have broken the rules, they also should be punished. I'm not suggesting that the Pats should get special treatment. And I'm not buying that the Pats "interpretation" to the rule should get them off the hook.

By insinuating that every team cheats and they all condoned cheating you are making an excuse for the Patriots as to why they cheated.

Pretty simple. Its how his writing reads. Intentional or not.

 

[Britney Spears]

Until there is the discussion is mute.

LOL

 

[NYCGangGreen]

Until there is the discussion is mute.

LOL

and to think I always thought it was "moot".time for the :11:

 

[j3r3m3y]

Until there is the discussion is mute.

LOL

and to think I always thought it was "moot".time for the :11:

You mean the "Moops" Jerry.

 

[greenline]

It could be anything from a fine of $20 to 3 draft picks and suspensions. All I'm saying is I think most are going to be disappointed because of how the rule can be and was interpreted.

AWESOME - someone who has read the entire rule and can fill us in on how it can be interpreted.Please expand on this b/c I have not been able to find a copy of the rule in its entirety. I've only found the snippets in the papers and BB's statement that he interpreted it wrongly.

I don't think he ever said he interpreted it "wrongly" He said it was interpretation. That's different. There was no contrition or admittal of guilt. There was an acknowledgement of the taping, a reference to discussing interpretation, and an apology for any issues this was causing. I think they still feel they are within rules EVEN if it's a technicality. We'll probably never know with confirmation what the Patriots argument was.

'Really? That is good news for the Pats. I would like you to expand on the technicality and the possible interpretation - was it because it was a day game? Or maybe because it was the second Sunday so the rule doesn't apply? I am genuinely curious to know what the possible interpretation and/or technicality could have been - oh, and most importantly - what the technicality might have been that will allow the Pats and BB to escape punishment when the league is clearly treating this very seriously.

You are getting on my nerves. Please read every post I've written again. SLOWLY. Calm yourself down and look for an instance where I said "The Patriots are going to escape punishment" Find that part for me, Eric. I am well aware the "league is treating this very seriously." Especially since Chris Mortensen says so. Everything else is speculation from writers who want to see him hung and shot. I am trying to tell you that the PUNISHMENT YOU SO DESPERATELY WANT TO SEE IS NOT GOING TO BE AS BAD AS YOU OR MANY OTHER OF YOUR FORUM SUPPORTERS WOULD LIKE IT TO BE. There is more as you stated yourself to the actual rule. The are portions of text that you will need to find for yourself. I am not providing you with my sources. If you are a smart person you can research it yourself. I don't know what they argument is specifically. But I know this proverbial hammer isn't going to fall as you wish. Enjoy the basement.

LOFLWhen logic starts failing, abandon the civilized discussion and start in with the arrogance and patronizing attitude again. You don't know any more than anyone else if the "punishment isn't going to be as bad as you or many other would like it to be". If you tone down the toolishness your points will carry more weight. HTH

That guy's a total douuche!

 

[GregR_2]

Posted this in the punishment poll, but figured it would be of enough interest I'd copy it here. This is the section of last year's official NFL rules that would deal with the commissioner's authority in investigating. Could have changed to this year's version, though I don't know of any reason to think it actually did. Note that there is a separate book, the Operations Manual, where the rule that was broken actually exists, but this is where the commissioners powers in this type of incident are laid out.

Rule 17: Emergencies, Unfair acts

Section 2: Extraordinarily Unfair Acts

Article 1: The Commissioner has the sole authority to investigate and take appropriate disciplinary action and/or corrective measures if any club action, non-participant interference, or calamity occurs in an NFL game which he deems so extraordinarily unfair or outside the accepted tactics encountered in professional football that such actio has a major effect on the result of the game.

Article 2: [This part clarifies that Section 2 does not constitute a mechanism for protesting the outcome of a game because of official's judgments and the like.]

Article 3: The Commissioner's powers under this Section 2 include the imposition of monetary fines and draft-choice forfeitures, suspension of persons involved in unfair acts, and, if appropriate, the reversal of a game's result or the rescheduling of a game, either from the beginning or from the point at which the extraordinary act occurred. [... rules on rescheduling skipped...] In all cases, the Commisioner will conduct a full investigation, including the opportunity for hearings, use of game videotape, and any other procedure he deems appropriate.

 

[GregR_2]

"You don't really know for sure," Marinelli said. "I mean you don't know whether he might be doing something for NFL Films or a coaches' show or whatever.""At one point we had a good drive going against the Patriots," said one Lion who doesn't want his name involved in this mess, but was willing to talk about it. "Mike Martz really had 'em going. They were getting fouled up, lining up wrong, we were moving the ball. Then boom, the headset from the sidelines to the coaches' booth goes out."Next possession we were moving the ball again and the same thing happened. You know it only takes two or three plays to mess up a drive."Matt Millen, the Lions' GM, was talking to Bengals' coach Marvin Lewis at the league meetings. He started telling him the story."Yeah, I know," Lewis said. "Headset went out. It happened to me in Foxboro, too."

Great googily moogily. That's said without any form of evidence other than coincidental, but if there was any truth to the Pats being involved in it, they'd better hope they never, ever piss off the employee who was involved, or at least buy his silence with a lot of cash. I don't even want to imagine how hard the league would come down on them if they had evidence of it.Edit to add: For those who might wonder, that's from the previously posted Dr. Z article on SI.com.

 

[vamphyri]

At this juncture, the only point I find worthy of discussion is what the likely penalty will be, and whether that likely penalty is sufficient.

I heard back from one of my contacts close to the Pats, and there is apparently talk of a hefty fine, loss of picks (as in more than one), and a suspension for BB. The severity of each is what seems to be in question. None of this should be considered even close to official. That appears to be the talk that's circulating in Foxoboro, and while this can only be filed under "unsubstantiated rumors," I personally would think this will end up being the outcome. And we'll just have to wait and see what the specifics are. If I had more info, I'd post it, but that's all I've got . . .

Thanks for the update, David- I think the Pats should be (and sounds like they are) preparing for the worst.I think a minimum is the picks I mentioned and a low 5 figure fine.I think the maximum is high picks - their 1st in '08 and 1st in '09, mid six figures (500G), plus a four game suspension of BBEverything in between is fair game and, IMO, where it lies on that spectrum will tell you how badly or how well the Pats were able to spin this for Goodell. I think some kind of suspension of BB is inevitable, but that is just me.

If I were to guess, $500,000 fine, loss of 3rd and 5th round picks (maybe a 2nd and a 4th instead), and 2 game suspension for BB. I suppose a case could be made that player suspensions are normally 4 games, so maybe they hit him with that instead.I think taking away a first round pick may be excessive. Unless they prohibit BB from interacting with the team AT ALL for however long he would be suspended for, that part would be effectively useless. He could coach a game from anywhere by telephone. So they would have to basically lock him in an empty room during the actual game to prevent him from coaching.

I think this is in the ballpark of what it will be. I'd guess 4 game suspension, $250K fine, and a 2nd and 4th.

I just have one concern with this talk of draft picks. First let me say I'm a Packer fan and neither love nor hate the Patriots. I've always thought Belichick was a great coach, albeit a jerk. Anyway, If Belichick was primarily behind this, is it possible Kraft wasn't fully aware of what was going on. If he wasn't, and you take draft picks from the Patriots, what if Belichick walks at the end of the year and takes a job somewhere else. Now the Pats pay for several years and his only repercussion is a suspension of a few weeks this year. I think a severe fine to the organization and suspension of Belichick is enough unless it can be proven the entire organization condoned this.

 

[Marc Levin]

Everyone may be doing something similar (but you know what, I'm honestly not completely sold on that in itself) - but I bet no one else is doing this the way the Pats have and that's why it's getting the spotlight now. They've taken this form of cheating to a different level it seems, after being explicitly warned not to do this.

The issue is less whether everyone was doing it last year as much as NOONE is allowed to do it this year. And I, like Gr00vus am not convinced the video taping of opponents is as rampant as is claimed here. Stealing D signals? Heck yeah. Using cameras? I don't think so.

 

[TheLimeChicken]

A couple thoughts (having not read beyond page 18, so I'm guessing all of this has been mentioned and repeated since)...

-As far as BB "interpretation" goes, I heard full text of the rule read over the radio several times this afternoon and immediately following the 'no camera's on the field' spiel is a clause that says "for use in the current game". I guess BB's interpretation, or at least what he allegedly told Goodell, is that the videos are made and kept for scouting and cataloging opposition tendencies after the game. Honestly it sounds a little weak to me and while playing lawyer with semantics might work in a court of law I'm not entirely sure it would here. BB thinks he was exploiting a grey area in the rules, maybe yes, maybe no. If you want to play literalist then possibly he has a case, but it's pretty clearly in violation of the spirit of the rule so I don't think it'll fly.

-As far as forfeiting Sunday's game, or any big advantage they had on Sunday goes...The NPR piece I heard yesterday morning had the tape confiscated four minutes into the game and most sports talk I've heard since then puts it between there and eight minutes in. If a forfeit would ever even be in the realm of possibility (and I don't think it would be) I'd have a hard time advocating here when it seems very likely that New England got no use out of the tapes whatsoever in last Sunday's game.

-Although there's definitely some dispute over the "everybody's doing it" idea. The more I read and hear, the more widespread I think it is. Something I think is telling is that although player/coach comments seem to be pretty split, they also seem to be pretty split between current and former players/coaches with current members of the league either coming out against New England or being very careful with their words and many former members of the league falling into the "no big deal, we did it" camp. To me it makes sense, if I see the storm brewing over Foxboro I'm certainly going to steer clear of any mention, however thinly veiled, of my team ever being involved in similar shenanigans while if I'm Eddie George what have I got to lose? I might just tell it like it is.

-Assuming the above holds some water and it is something that goes on quite a bit (Aaron Schecter (I know I misspelled that) claimed to know of 12 teams that did exactly what the Pats did this weekend on the radio early this morning), do we wonder what coaches are thinking league-wide? As dis-liked as Belichik may be among his peers (though I don't necessarily know that to be true), how many might be putting on a public face yet cursing Mangini behind closed doors because while they may have gotten away with it this weekend we all know that NOBODY will this coming Sunday. That's all unfounded speculation on my part, but that's what much of this thread seems to be anyway.

-As far as actual penalties to come out of this I'm actually a little bit torn. On the one hand, I would like to see them get hit hard, I'm just not sure how to do it. I've seen lots of comparison's to Wilson's 5 game suspension, but I can't use that as a reference and here's why. I'm a believer in consistency, I don't think the Patriot's can be punished to the Xth degree and a team found guilty later in the year or next season can be punished to the Yth degree, it's got to be the same set of sanctions for the same crime. Suspending the head coach here makes sense, Belichick runs a tight ship, he micromanages every detail, he knows every last thing that goes on, these video tapes were almost certainly his brainchild and if not he damn well knew of them, so suspending him is no big deal and probably warranted. Now take team B who gets found guilty of the exact same infraction next year, it's a looser organization when it comes to on-field operations, coordinators and position coaches report to the head guy but really have a great deal of autonomy. The HC has a more defensive background and gets more involved there, while the OC is largely left on his own and this OC thinks he can pull a fast one and won't get caught. Well, he does get caught and it turns out HC has no idea what's going on. If BB gets suspended here then I think the HC of team B HAS to get suspended as well. I don't know if anyone is following my logic here, but I'm saying that penalties for infractions have to be consistent and while it's a fitting penalty in the Patriots case, it also sets a precedent for a penalty that might not necessarily fit the crime in a future case.

-Last thought, and it concerns what I think WILL happen as opposed to what I think SHOULD happen. Actually, that's wrong, I really have no prediction, but I think whatever sentence is handed down might actually provide us a clue to the "is everyone really doing it?" question. There's no doubt in my mind that Goodell and the NFL is investigating this thing fully right now, and that goes well beyond the New England sideline to every team in the league. If he really can find a dozen or so teams that he even suspected were pulling similar stunts this weekend or even trying to find ways to do so then I think we might all be surprised as to how light the penalty is, on the other hand if he finds everyone else to have likely been above board and the Patriots to have been the only organization to blatantly ignore the league's preseason directive regarding this then the penalty would be harsher.

I know that seems counter intuitive, but if the league can find other abusers, so can the Patriot organization and rather than bring a whole culture of rule-breaking into the spotlight I'd expect a slap on the wrist (like a 3rd rounder or something) followed by a private memo to all the teams saying "Look, we're serious, we've punished one and if we find another there'll be hell to pay.

Just a couple thoughts, none based on anything more than the thoughts floating through my head, so it's likely all wrong, but there it is.

 

[Marc Levin]

while polishing their three Lombardis.

If suspended, that's all BB will be doing for a little while.[/JennaJamesonon]FFSlowMo[/off]

 

[Marc Levin]

A couple thoughts (having not read beyond page 18, so I'm guessing all of this has been mentioned and repeated since)...

Awesome post.

 

[Keys Myaths]

You are getting on my nerves.

I simply don't believe you have seen the rule, and I believe you are a blind homer - especially since you called me "Eric" and said "enjoy the basement" as your best responses. Had you read the rule, you;d at least speak in generalities as to why there could be an interpretation. But, you didn't. You fell back on insulting me and then insutling my team.You think this is team-driven. It is not.

He's parroting his almighty leader BB and since he said it was an interpretation issue, that's what it must be. Right?LOL.I could really care less what BB gets. As far as my predictions go that's just what I think they will be. If they are less or more it wouldn't bother me one bit. I'm not a Pat hater, never have been. I think BB is a weasel and got caught with his hand in the cookie jar and now he's gotta pay up.

It's exactly what it is. Whether you like it or not. Or whether he is using it as an out. It's defensable on a technicality and although it will be punished, your hopes of demise are going by the wayside.

and what is the technicality again? 30 words or less would be fine...

Talk to Bill. I have no idea. I didn't read the rule. I'm a homer. (please get away with this. please get away with this.)

Please actually add something to the conversation instead of just inciting people.If you have extra information we don't have--fantastic! Share it.If you don't, and are just being a tool because you can't get attention out there in the real world, go join a book club or something. You gotta pull yourself up, man.

 

[Keys Myaths]

A couple thoughts (having not read beyond page 18, so I'm guessing all of this has been mentioned and repeated since)...-As far as BB "interpretation" goes, I heard full text of the rule read over the radio several times this afternoon and immediately following the 'no camera's on the field' spiel is a clause that says "for use in the current game". I guess BB's interpretation, or at least what he allegedly told Goodell, is that the videos are made and kept for scouting and cataloging opposition tendencies after the game. Honestly it sounds a little weak to me and while playing lawyer with semantics might work in a court of law I'm not entirely sure it would here. BB thinks he was exploiting a grey area in the rules, maybe yes, maybe no. If you want to play literalist then possibly he has a case, but it's pretty clearly in violation of the spirit of the rule so I don't think it'll fly.-As far as forfeiting Sunday's game, or any big advantage they had on Sunday goes...The NPR piece I heard yesterday morning had the tape confiscated four minutes into the game and most sports talk I've heard since then puts it between there and eight minutes in. If a forfeit would ever even be in the realm of possibility (and I don't think it would be) I'd have a hard time advocating here when it seems very likely that New England got no use out of the tapes whatsoever in last Sunday's game.-Although there's definitely some dispute over the "everybody's doing it" idea. The more I read and hear, the more widespread I think it is. Something I think is telling is that although player/coach comments seem to be pretty split, they also seem to be pretty split between current and former players/coaches with current members of the league either coming out against New England or being very careful with their words and many former members of the league falling into the "no big deal, we did it" camp. To me it makes sense, if I see the storm brewing over Foxboro I'm certainly going to steer clear of any mention, however thinly veiled, of my team ever being involved in similar shenanigans while if I'm Eddie George what have I got to lose? I might just tell it like it is.-Assuming the above holds some water and it is something that goes on quite a bit (Aaron Schecter (I know I misspelled that) claimed to know of 12 teams that did exactly what the Pats did this weekend on the radio early this morning), do we wonder what coaches are thinking league-wide? As dis-liked as Belichik may be among his peers (though I don't necessarily know that to be true), how many might be putting on a public face yet cursing Mangini behind closed doors because while they may have gotten away with it this weekend we all know that NOBODY will this coming Sunday. That's all unfounded speculation on my part, but that's what much of this thread seems to be anyway.-As far as actual penalties to come out of this I'm actually a little bit torn. On the one hand, I would like to see them get hit hard, I'm just not sure how to do it. I've seen lots of comparison's to Wilson's 5 game suspension, but I can't use that as a reference and here's why. I'm a believer in consistency, I don't think the Patriot's can be punished to the Xth degree and a team found guilty later in the year or next season can be punished to the Yth degree, it's got to be the same set of sanctions for the same crime. Suspending the head coach here makes sense, Belichick runs a tight ship, he micromanages every detail, he knows every last thing that goes on, these video tapes were almost certainly his brainchild and if not he damn well knew of them, so suspending him is no big deal and probably warranted. Now take team B who gets found guilty of the exact same infraction next year, it's a looser organization when it comes to on-field operations, coordinators and position coaches report to the head guy but really have a great deal of autonomy. The HC has a more defensive background and gets more involved there, while the OC is largely left on his own and this OC thinks he can pull a fast one and won't get caught. Well, he does get caught and it turns out HC has no idea what's going on. If BB gets suspended here then I think the HC of team B HAS to get suspended as well. I don't know if anyone is following my logic here, but I'm saying that penalties for infractions have to be consistent and while it's a fitting penalty in the Patriots case, it also sets a precedent for a penalty that might not necessarily fit the crime in a future case.-Last thought, and it concerns what I think WILL happen as opposed to what I think SHOULD happen. Actually, that's wrong, I really have no prediction, but I think whatever sentence is handed down might actually provide us a clue to the "is everyone really doing it?" question. There's no doubt in my mind that Goodell and the NFL is investigating this thing fully right now, and that goes well beyond the New England sideline to every team in the league. If he really can find a dozen or so teams that he even suspected were pulling similar stunts this weekend or even trying to find ways to do so then I think we might all be surprised as to how light the penalty is, on the other hand if he finds everyone else to have likely been above board and the Patriots to have been the only organization to blatantly ignore the league's preseason directive regarding this then the penalty would be harsher.I know that seems counter intuitive, but if the league can find other abusers, so can the Patriot organization and rather than bring a whole culture of rule-breaking into the spotlight I'd expect a slap on the wrist (like a 3rd rounder or something) followed by a private memo to all the teams saying "Look, we're serious, we've punished one and if we find another there'll be hell to pay.Just a couple thoughts, none based on anything more than the thoughts floating through my head, so it's likely all wrong, but there it is.

This is the best post in the last 17 pages. Thank you.

 

[NY/NJMFDIVER]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EU1O-hGxgg

You know, this video actually makes some good points, how does the third string QB in college become this generations Montana? Shady Brady indeed....

 

[MSULions]

not sure if this was posted before...but I think this just keeps getting worse. It's easy to laugh at them cheating against the Lions, but remember, the Pats won 28-21 in a game that they had to come back from behind to win in the 4th quarter. This all stinks to high heaven. And Jabba Weiss looks as guilty as Bellichek.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writ...ting/index.html

From the article:

But the things that make this Patriots flap so bothersome are the following:

• The arrogance of the organization, the smugness. We are the greatest, with the greatest coach, a genius, etc. What other team ever had its owner, Bob Kraft in this case, take the Super Bowl trophy overseas in the name of world peace. What'll he take this year, the videos of the defensive signals?

• The fact that this is nothing new. Stories are now coming out of the woodwork that cheating has been a normal modus operandi with this club.

• Good old street crime is one thing. It goes with the history of sports. But this video thing lifts it to a new level of electronic surveillance and into the realm of the hi-tech, white collar crime that we all hate. Put these guys on the business page, for God's sake. There's no place for them in sports.

Last year the Lions played the Patriots in Foxboro. At one point their coach, Rod Marinelli, phoned up to the press box, "There's a camera pointed right at our defensive coach making his calls. Is that allowed?" A Lions' employee called the NFL booth. No, it certainly was not. So the videotaper was stopped. Then after a while he began again. The same process was repeated and he was asked to stop again. Now that's dedication.

"You don't really know for sure," Marinelli said. "I mean you don't know whether he might be doing something for NFL Films or a coaches' show or whatever."



"At one point we had a good drive going against the Patriots," said one Lion who doesn't want his name involved in this mess, but was willing to talk about it. "Mike Martz really had 'em going. They were getting fouled up, lining up wrong, we were moving the ball. Then boom, the headset from the sidelines to the coaches' booth goes out.

"Next possession we were moving the ball again and the same thing happened. You know it only takes two or three plays to mess up a drive."

Matt Millen, the Lions' GM, was talking to Bengals' coach Marvin Lewis at the league meetings. He started telling him the story.

"Yeah, I know," Lewis said. "Headset went out. It happened to me in Foxboro, too."

Marinelli was the defensive line coach in Tampa Bay when the Bucs beat the Patriots in the 2000 regular season opener and did a good job controlling New England's offense. After the game the Patriots' offensive coach, Charlie Weis, was overheard congratulating the Bucs' defensive coordinator, Monte Kiffin.

"We knew all your calls, and you still stopped us," Weis said. "I can't believe it."

He couldn't believe it because the Patriots had videotaped all of the defensive signals in their last preseason game, which was against the Bucs.

The stories are all coming out now, but why hadn't all this been reported to the league office before this?

"At the time, you never know for sure," Millen said. "And if you don't know it at the time, then you don't feel right reporting it later."

As a former Patriots employee, Jets coach Eric Mangini must have known what was going on. So why didn't he have some kind of system of dummy calls set up to foul up the video surveillance?

"He did," says a former Patriots employee whose name cannot be used for obvious reasons. "He had three sets of signals being given, one real, two dummy. He had the same thing going when he beat the Patriots last year. But still, it means extra work, changing the way you prepare for a game. It means both clubs are not playing on the same level field, and that's what's wrong about it."

 

[Banger]

Keep dreaming, fellas.

Why do you say this? I can't speak for everyone, but I am going off of reports from analysts whose job it is to know a heck of a lot more about this kind of stuff than we do.I'll echo Banger - what is your prediction?

My prediction is you guys are going to be mad.

BTW Green...not mad and wasn't far off on the predictions....

 

[greenline]

Keep dreaming, fellas.

Why do you say this? I can't speak for everyone, but I am going off of reports from analysts whose job it is to know a heck of a lot more about this kind of stuff than we do.I'll echo Banger - what is your prediction?

My prediction is you guys are going to be mad.

BTW Green...not mad and wasn't far off on the predictions....

Good. You are like me then.

 

[Banger]

Keep dreaming, fellas.

Why do you say this? I can't speak for everyone, but I am going off of reports from analysts whose job it is to know a heck of a lot more about this kind of stuff than we do.I'll echo Banger - what is your prediction?

My prediction is you guys are going to be mad.

BTW Green...not mad and wasn't far off on the predictions....

Good. You are like me then.

except that you thought BB' "interpretation" would lead to a punishment much less than what he got which was clearly incorrect.

 

[greenline]

Keep dreaming, fellas.

Why do you say this? I can't speak for everyone, but I am going off of reports from analysts whose job it is to know a heck of a lot more about this kind of stuff than we do.I'll echo Banger - what is your prediction?

My prediction is you guys are going to be mad.

BTW Green...not mad and wasn't far off on the predictions....

Good. You are like me then.

except that you thought BB' "interpretation" would lead to a punishment much less than what he got which was clearly incorrect.

Did I think that? I thought it would be much less? I don't recall ever defining a specific ruling. All I knew was that it would make most of the haters all mad. Look at FDNY, John from Atlanta. He wrote a letter to Goodell crying and then posted on a freaking MB so everyone could see what a cry baby he was. I'd say overall I'm very happy with the outcome of this and I knew it would not be enough for most of the Patriots haters here.

 

[Reaper]

Keep dreaming, fellas.

Why do you say this? I can't speak for everyone, but I am going off of reports from analysts whose job it is to know a heck of a lot more about this kind of stuff than we do.I'll echo Banger - what is your prediction?

My prediction is you guys are going to be mad.

BTW Green...not mad and wasn't far off on the predictions....

Good. You are like me then.

except that you thought BB' "interpretation" would lead to a punishment much less than what he got which was clearly incorrect.

Did I think that? I thought it would be much less? I don't recall ever defining a specific ruling. All I knew was that it would make most of the haters all mad. Look at FDNY, John from Atlanta. He wrote a letter to Goodell crying and then posted on a freaking MB so everyone could see what a cry baby he was. I'd say overall I'm very happy with the outcome of this and I knew it would not be enough for most of the Patriots haters here.

I think a small minority isn't happy with the ruling....Personally I said a 3rd rounder from the start....I thought a 1st round pick was and is A LOT.Maybe it's not enough for the haters, whoever they are, but, to the rest of us football fans just here discussing this I think it was actually MORE than we thought.

 

[greenline]

Keep dreaming, fellas.

Why do you say this? I can't speak for everyone, but I am going off of reports from analysts whose job it is to know a heck of a lot more about this kind of stuff than we do.I'll echo Banger - what is your prediction?

My prediction is you guys are going to be mad.

BTW Green...not mad and wasn't far off on the predictions....

Good. You are like me then.

except that you thought BB' "interpretation" would lead to a punishment much less than what he got which was clearly incorrect.

Did I think that? I thought it would be much less? I don't recall ever defining a specific ruling. All I knew was that it would make most of the haters all mad. Look at FDNY, John from Atlanta. He wrote a letter to Goodell crying and then posted on a freaking MB so everyone could see what a cry baby he was. I'd say overall I'm very happy with the outcome of this and I knew it would not be enough for most of the Patriots haters here.

I think a small minority isn't happy with the ruling....Personally I said a 3rd rounder from the start....I thought a 1st round pick was and is A LOT.Maybe it's not enough for the haters, whoever they are, but, to the rest of us football fans just here discussing this I think it was actually MORE than we thought.

Yeah. All I cared about was no suspension personally. Everything else didn't matter to me as a fan.

 

[Keys Myaths]

Keep dreaming, fellas.

Why do you say this? I can't speak for everyone, but I am going off of reports from analysts whose job it is to know a heck of a lot more about this kind of stuff than we do.I'll echo Banger - what is your prediction?

My prediction is you guys are going to be mad.

BTW Green...not mad and wasn't far off on the predictions....

Good. You are like me then.

except that you thought BB' "interpretation" would lead to a punishment much less than what he got which was clearly incorrect.

Did I think that? I thought it would be much less? I don't recall ever defining a specific ruling. All I knew was that it would make most of the haters all mad. Look at FDNY, John from Atlanta. He wrote a letter to Goodell crying and then posted on a freaking MB so everyone could see what a cry baby he was. I'd say overall I'm very happy with the outcome of this and I knew it would not be enough for most of the Patriots haters here.

New posters,Please realize that when you use the word "haters" in a post, 95% of people that have been here longer than 3 months automatically disregard everything else you're saying. You may be making the greatest point in the world, but we'll never know because of the 5th grade insult.HTH,Keys

 

[Reaper]

Keep dreaming, fellas.

Why do you say this? I can't speak for everyone, but I am going off of reports from analysts whose job it is to know a heck of a lot more about this kind of stuff than we do.I'll echo Banger - what is your prediction?

My prediction is you guys are going to be mad.

BTW Green...not mad and wasn't far off on the predictions....

Good. You are like me then.

except that you thought BB' "interpretation" would lead to a punishment much less than what he got which was clearly incorrect.

Did I think that? I thought it would be much less? I don't recall ever defining a specific ruling. All I knew was that it would make most of the haters all mad. Look at FDNY, John from Atlanta. He wrote a letter to Goodell crying and then posted on a freaking MB so everyone could see what a cry baby he was. I'd say overall I'm very happy with the outcome of this and I knew it would not be enough for most of the Patriots haters here.

I think a small minority isn't happy with the ruling....Personally I said a 3rd rounder from the start....I thought a 1st round pick was and is A LOT.Maybe it's not enough for the haters, whoever they are, but, to the rest of us football fans just here discussing this I think it was actually MORE than we thought.

Yeah. All I cared about was no suspension personally. Everything else didn't matter to me as a fan.

Really.That's all that mattered yet, you posted over and over how the majority would be pissed off cuz the ruling was too lenient. But, You wouldn't state what "too Lenient" meant...Then you claim you were right that The majority is pissed off, when they arent'...And now you claim you never really cared To me a 1st round pick is HUGE.

 

[Sheriff66]

Roger Goodell is gutless, plain and simple...

Wade Wilson gets a 5 game suspension and is told "Coaches are held to a higher standard than players", and Belicheat doesn't have to sit out one game ???????? The money does nothing to BB, he'll make that back with little problem, and the team has 2 first rounders, this is Goodell attemptiing to look tough and make this all go away...

I lost respect for Goodell, no sack....

 

[greenline]

Keep dreaming, fellas.

Why do you say this? I can't speak for everyone, but I am going off of reports from analysts whose job it is to know a heck of a lot more about this kind of stuff than we do.I'll echo Banger - what is your prediction?

My prediction is you guys are going to be mad.

BTW Green...not mad and wasn't far off on the predictions....

Good. You are like me then.

except that you thought BB' "interpretation" would lead to a punishment much less than what he got which was clearly incorrect.

Did I think that? I thought it would be much less? I don't recall ever defining a specific ruling. All I knew was that it would make most of the haters all mad. Look at FDNY, John from Atlanta. He wrote a letter to Goodell crying and then posted on a freaking MB so everyone could see what a cry baby he was. I'd say overall I'm very happy with the outcome of this and I knew it would not be enough for most of the Patriots haters here.

I think a small minority isn't happy with the ruling....Personally I said a 3rd rounder from the start....I thought a 1st round pick was and is A LOT.Maybe it's not enough for the haters, whoever they are, but, to the rest of us football fans just here discussing this I think it was actually MORE than we thought.

Yeah. All I cared about was no suspension personally. Everything else didn't matter to me as a fan.

Really.That's all that mattered yet, you posted over and over how the majority would be pissed off cuz the ruling was too lenient. But, You wouldn't state what "too Lenient" meant...Then you claim you were right that The majority is pissed off, when they arent'...And now you claim you never really cared To me a 1st round pick is HUGE.

To you because your team sucks. That's why it matters to you.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

New posters,Please realize that when you use the word "haters" in a post, 95% of people that have been here longer than 3 months automatically disregard everything else you're saying. You may be making the greatest point in the world, but we'll never know because of the 5th grade insult.HTH,Keys

Oh, now you're just hating on greenline.