Ethical Vegan Converts (1 Viewer)

[MrJimiT]

In recent weeks, I had a dinner companion who is a self-proclaimed "ethical vegan". I was intrigued enough to hear this persons point of view and reasons for altering their eating habits and lifestyle. In the days/meals I've had since, this life-choice decision has been bouncing around in my thought process. Now I have attempted to cut down on my red-meat consumption, but I still carry along with a steady diet of chicken/fish etc. in my eating habits. So for me...IF this were something for me to apply and adhere to....it would be a huge difference in dietary consumption. So my question to FBG's is this: For those who abide by this creed, what finally pushed you over the edge? And if you do practice this....how extreme do you maintain this?? (The person who was speaking to me about it did not partake in dairy/eggs/cheese's/etc.)

 

[Kanil]

Would an ethical vegan eat lab grown meat?

 

[EYLive]

I'm plant based when i eat at home, which is often since I started working from home 2 months ago. I only eat meat if I go out for meals. But I'm not vegan because of ethics, it's for my health. Cholesterol, high blood pressure etc sucks. It hasn't been a difficult change at all once I got a hang of what staples to stock up on at the market.

 

[msommer]

Would an ethical vegan eat lab grown meat?

Don't see why not. But they probably won't.

 

[Sweet J]

I would almost think that an "ethical vegan" is redundant.  Aren't all vegans vegan for "ethical" reasons? 

Anyway, I'm a vegetarian, not vegan.  Mostly because ice cream is delicious and leather shoes are nice. I don't know about "ethical" reasons - I just don't want to live my life in a way that uses animal meat for food. It's probably the closest thing I have to "religion." As to what pushed me over the edge: when I was 18 years old, I thought to myself "I want to try out this thing for a little bit."  30 years later, I'm still trying it out. 

 

[Sweet J]

what I mean by the above: there are probably plenty of non-ethical reasons for being a vegetarian (health, environment, etc.).  But if you don't want to wear a leather belt, it probably because of some sort of "ethics."

 

[MrJimiT]

I would almost think that an "ethical vegan" is redundant.  Aren't all vegans vegan for "ethical" reasons? 

Anyway, I'm a vegetarian, not vegan.  Mostly because ice cream is delicious and leather shoes are nice. I don't know about "ethical" reasons - I just don't want to live my life in a way that uses animal meat for food. It's probably the closest thing I have to "religion." As to what pushed me over the edge: when I was 18 years old, I thought to myself "I want to try out this thing for a little bit."  30 years later, I'm still trying it out. 

I probably should have been more specific, since I had to research and ask what an "ethical" vegan was in the first place. I understand those who choose for health reasons, maybe even taste reasons. I am more interested in the "ethical" reasons you mentioned above - such as not using animal meat for food. Like many choices in life, it seems that there are various levels of depth to this particular "ethics". I also understand the whole mistreatment or killing of animals for food and other things. I suppose I was curious if it was the "mistreatment" thing that causes many to not consume dairy products as well as not being carnivorous?

 

[IC FBGCav]

I would almost think that an "ethical vegan" is redundant.  Aren't all vegans vegan for "ethical" reasons? 

Anyway, I'm a vegetarian, not vegan.  Mostly because ice cream is delicious and leather shoes are nice. I don't know about "ethical" reasons - I just don't want to live my life in a way that uses animal meat for food. It's probably the closest thing I have to "religion." As to what pushed me over the edge: when I was 18 years old, I thought to myself "I want to try out this thing for a little bit."  30 years later, I'm still trying it out. 

What the difference between consuming plants and animals?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/plants-respond-defensively-to-the-sound-of-caterpillars-eating-their-leaves-9580912.html

 

[culdeus]

I probably should have been more specific, since I had to research and ask what an "ethical" vegan was in the first place. I understand those who choose for health reasons, maybe even taste reasons. I am more interested in the "ethical" reasons you mentioned above - such as not using animal meat for food. Like many choices in life, it seems that there are various levels of depth to this particular "ethics". I also understand the whole mistreatment or killing of animals for food and other things. I suppose I was curious if it was the "mistreatment" thing that causes many to not consume dairy products as well as not being carnivorous?

I think You can argue dairy is less ethical than meat. Rather easily. 

 

[IC FBGCav]

https://www.vice.com/en_nz/article/8x5nzz/how-plants-warn-each-other-when-theyre-under-attack

"Nearly all plants release [methyl jasmonate] when they are under stress or under attack," Emily Parsons-Lord tells VICE. "It is a warning signal. But, at the same time, it's kind of beautiful."

The chemical she's talking about builds up inside plants when they are damaged. This could from threats like feeding animals or deforestation, but it triggers a series of internal defence mechanisms. Some plants will secrete a sticky, toxic resin, while others pump their leaves full of molecules making them make them indigestible to insects.

Perhaps the most interesting thing though, is that methyl jasmonate lets plants communicate with one another, to warn each other of danger. The pheromone travels through the air from damaged leaves, and is received by nearby plants through tiny pores in their leaves. Recognising a threat, they begin releasing their own methyl jasmonate.

 

[Sweet J]

What the difference between consuming plants and animals?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/plants-respond-defensively-to-the-sound-of-caterpillars-eating-their-leaves-9580912.html

I don't know . . . common sense? 

 

[eoMMan]

Dude. I saw into your mind's eye. You put half-and-half in one of those coffees in attempt to make me break vegan edge. I'll take the one with soy. [takes one of the coffees via telekenesis] Thanks, tool. [and he drinks from it]

 

[Sweet J]

https://www.vice.com/en_nz/article/8x5nzz/how-plants-warn-each-other-when-theyre-under-attack

"Nearly all plants release [methyl jasmonate] when they are under stress or under attack," Emily Parsons-Lord tells VICE. "It is a warning signal. But, at the same time, it's kind of beautiful."

The chemical she's talking about builds up inside plants when they are damaged. This could from threats like feeding animals or deforestation, but it triggers a series of internal defence mechanisms. Some plants will secrete a sticky, toxic resin, while others pump their leaves full of molecules making them make them indigestible to insects.

Perhaps the most interesting thing though, is that methyl jasmonate lets plants communicate with one another, to warn each other of danger. The pheromone travels through the air from damaged leaves, and is received by nearby plants through tiny pores in their leaves. Recognising a threat, they begin releasing their own methyl jasmonate.

Haha.  I see where you are going with it.  I'm not interested in going down that rabbit hole.  To each their own! 

 

[Sweet J]

I probably should have been more specific, since I had to research and ask what an "ethical" vegan was in the first place. I understand those who choose for health reasons, maybe even taste reasons. I am more interested in the "ethical" reasons you mentioned above - such as not using animal meat for food. Like many choices in life, it seems that there are various levels of depth to this particular "ethics". I also understand the whole mistreatment or killing of animals for food and other things. I suppose I was curious if it was the "mistreatment" thing that causes many to not consume dairy products as well as not being carnivorous?

Well, I guess I was quibbling with what appears to be some confusion between "vegan" and "vegetarian." (health and taste are more appropriate arguments for vegetarianism, not veganism). 

Lots of people who are bunches smarter than me make all sorts of arguments for why things are ethical or moral.  I don't try and wade too deeply into that river.  I try and stay closer to the "if it feels right, and you are being intellectually honest, and trying to do right, and have a decent moral grounding, than you can call it 'ethical' ".  So, my personal preference is to avoid consuming foods that contribute to animal suffering.  Mostly because animals are cute and cuddly.  But I don't eat flounder or crabs, so there must be more to it. 

Edit: if you really want to get an interesting take on morality, you can ask for @Maurile Tremblay's thoughts (our resident philosopher).  I don't think he's a vegetarian, but I'd be surprised if he hasn't considered morality of meat-eating. 

 

[Ron Swanson]

I had a "vegan moment" the other day.  I caught a beautiful slot redfish.  And let it go.  Why?  Well, I already had dinner ready and I just don't care for redfish all that much.  Normally I would have eaten it despite that. Don't think I can hang this one on ethical.

 

[Long Ball Larry]

I think You can argue dairy is less ethical than meat. Rather easily. 

It is pretty cruel the way that a dairy cow is treated.  Continually inseminated with calf taken away immediately and just in a cage all life getting milked.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

I respect anyone who makes thoughtful, conscious choices about their eating habits no matter what conclusions they settle on.

I think factory farming is an ethical (and environmental) catastrophe. I strongly agree with vegans about avoiding animal products that come from factory farms.

I part ways with vegans elsewhere pretty strongly. I kind of view veganism as vaguely comparable to fundamentalist Christianity. At the heart of Christianity, arguably, is an absolutely wonderful ideal of loving your neighbor and being kind to everyone. But the fundamentalists get lost, in my view, in rigid adherence to ethically arbitrary rules at the margin (such as opposing gay marriage, or, in some variations, refusing to come in contact with women during their menstrual cycles or whatever). Similarly, at the heart of veganism is a genuine concern for animal welfare that I'm fully on board with. But the idea that eating honey is worse than eating almonds, or that eating oysters is worse than eating wheat, is ethically arbitrary and, IMO, wrong. (Almond farming is harder on bees than honey production is. Wheat production kills a lot more sentient beings than oyster aquaculture does -- including cute ones like mice, not just scary ones like snakes and potato bugs.)

The conclusions I've settled on myself are that hunted wild game (including wild-caught fish if caught responsibly -- no nets that entangle dolphins, etc.), along with meat, milk, and eggs from pasture-based farms are more than just acceptable. I view them as net positives from an ethical standpoint (at least under certain conditions). Products from conventional factory farms, on the other hand, I'd avoid 100% if I were more strong willed. I generally try, but I make plenty of exceptions when I'm at restaurants. I should try to make fewer exceptions.

I do think that it doesn't have to be all or nothing. Reducing your consumption of conventional meat by 10% is better than nothing. Baby steps are fine.

Probably the best thing a person can do as a single dietary change is to cut out chicken. Substitute any other meat instead if you're going to eat meat. As Will MacAskill explains: "If you crunch the numbers on amount of harm done per meal, or per calorie consumed, then by far the strongest argument is to cut out chicken, then (non-free range) eggs, then pork. The argument for cutting out beef, and especially the argument for cutting out milk, is much, much weaker. Chickens suffer the most of all the animals, they're in the worst conditions, and you kill more chickens in the typical American diet than you do beef cows or dairy cows, simply because those animals are so much larger." (I'm not persuaded that chickens suffer more than pigs, but I think the other points are correct.)

 

[parasaurolophus]

I would almost think that an "ethical vegan" is redundant.  Aren't all vegans vegan for "ethical" reasons? 

Anyway, I'm a vegetarian, not vegan.  Mostly because ice cream is delicious and leather shoes are nice. I don't know about "ethical" reasons - I just don't want to live my life in a way that uses animal meat for food. It's probably the closest thing I have to "religion." As to what pushed me over the edge: when I was 18 years old, I thought to myself "I want to try out this thing for a little bit."  30 years later, I'm still trying it out. 

I could have written this post. Except insert 22 years instead of 30. 

 

[Jobber]

I would almost think that an "ethical vegan" is redundant.  Aren't all vegans vegan for "ethical" reasons? 

Anyway, I'm a vegetarian, not vegan.  Mostly because ice cream is delicious and leather shoes are nice. I don't know about "ethical" reasons - I just don't want to live my life in a way that uses animal meat for food. It's probably the closest thing I have to "religion." As to what pushed me over the edge: when I was 18 years old, I thought to myself "I want to try out this thing for a little bit."  30 years later, I'm still trying it out. 

Got any favorite vegetarian recipes you want to share?

 

[Arizona Ron]

I did plant based for 90% of my meals for about a year.  As I mentioned in another thread, I gained about 15lbs on it over the past year even while working out 4-5 times a week.  Options are slim so I would rely a lot of Mexican, Asian and Indian food when I'm out with clients.  Eating bagels in the morning etc. The carbs catch up to after a while.  Also, tofu will give you man-boobs so avoid it as a regular substitute for meat.   I basically substituted every beef dish with beans and every chicken dish with chickpeas (when reasonably possible). 

I did it because my total cholesterol started to creep up to 200.  It's down to 170 now. I'm doing keto now to get the weight back off.  I envision a diet with low, lean meat intake once I get back to where I want to be though.

 

[jb1020]

Been "mostly vegan" for 5 years now.  My wife and I started it solely for health reasons, without any concern for the environment.  That thought never even crossed our minds at first.  After a month or so of doing it we decided it was for us and theres no way I could go back to eating meat.  It's lost all appeal to me.  

We're not the high and mighty type that are out there.  Eating meals at home, its strictly vegan, but tomorrow is my daughter bday and she'll have a cookie cake.  I'll have a piece knowing there is dairy on it.  No biggie.

After a few months passed we did start to become aware of the environmental reasons as to why some people become vegan.  

 

[Sweet J]

Got any favorite vegetarian recipes you want to share?

Yeah.  My wife has some that I really like.  I'll see if I can find some over the weekend. 

 

[Moe.]

Well, I guess I was quibbling with what appears to be some confusion between "vegan" and "vegetarian." (health and taste are more appropriate arguments for vegetarianism, not veganism). 

Lots of people who are bunches smarter than me make all sorts of arguments for why things are ethical or moral.  I don't try and wade too deeply into that river.  I try and stay closer to the "if it feels right, and you are being intellectually honest, and trying to do right, and have a decent moral grounding, than you can call it 'ethical' ".  So, my personal preference is to avoid consuming foods that contribute to animal suffering.  Mostly because animals are cute and cuddly.  But I don't eat flounder or crabs, so there must be more to it. 

How do you reconcile that preference with dairy products (and eggs, if you eat those)? I don't feel as bad when I buy those products at the farmer's market or something along those lines but it's tough to do that every single time. 

I feel truly awful about the factory farm system and it seems pretty obvious that future generations will look back on it with contempt. I wish I could do better and avoid that stuff entirely but it's difficult. I have no moral or ethical opposition to animal husbandry but I feel very guilty about the current system of mass production.  

 

[Long Ball Larry]

I respect anyone who makes thoughtful, conscious choices about their eating habits no matter what conclusions they settle on.

I think factory farming is an ethical (and environmental) catastrophe. I strongly agree with vegans about avoiding animal products that come from factory farms.

I part ways with vegans elsewhere pretty strongly. I kind of view veganism as vaguely comparable to fundamentalist Christianity. At the heart of Christianity, arguably, is an absolutely wonderful ideal of loving your neighbor and being kind to everyone. But the fundamentalists get lost, in my view, in rigid adherence to ethically arbitrary rules at the margin (such as opposing gay marriage, or, in some variations, refusing to come in contact with women during their menstrual cycles or whatever). Similarly, at the heart of veganism is a genuine concern for animal welfare that I'm fully on board with. But the idea that eating honey is worse than eating almonds, or that eating oysters is worse than eating wheat, is ethically arbitrary and, IMO, wrong. (Almond farming is harder on bees than honey production is. Wheat production kills a lot more sentient beings than oyster aquaculture does -- including cute ones like mice, not just scary ones like snakes and potato bugs.)

The conclusions I've settled on myself are that hunted wild game (including wild-caught fish if caught responsibly -- no nets that entangle dolphins, etc.), along with meat, milk, and eggs from pasture-based farms are more than just acceptable. I view them as net positives from an ethical standpoint (at least under certain conditions). Products from conventional factory farms, on the other hand, I'd avoid 100% if I were more strong willed. I generally try, but I make plenty of exceptions when I'm at restaurants. I should try to make fewer exceptions.

I do think that it doesn't have to be all or nothing. Reducing your consumption of conventional meat by 10% is better than nothing. Baby steps are fine.

Probably the best thing a person can do as a single dietary change is to cut out chicken. Substitute any other meat instead if you're going to eat meat. As Will MacAskill explains: "If you crunch the numbers on amount of harm done per meal, or per calorie consumed, then by far the strongest argument is to cut out chicken, then (non-free range) eggs, then pork. The argument for cutting out beef, and especially the argument for cutting out milk, is much, much weaker. Chickens suffer the most of all the animals, they're in the worst conditions, and you kill more chickens in the typical American diet than you do beef cows or dairy cows, simply because those animals are so much larger." (I'm not persuaded that chickens suffer more than pigs, but I think the other points are correct.)

do you happen to have any examples of dairy farms that you think are ethical and cruelty-free?

 

[Long Ball Larry]

Been "mostly vegan" for 5 years now.  My wife and I started it solely for health reasons, without any concern for the environment.  That thought never even crossed our minds at first.  After a month or so of doing it we decided it was for us and theres no way I could go back to eating meat.  It's lost all appeal to me.  

We're not the high and mighty type that are out there.  Eating meals at home, its strictly vegan, but tomorrow is my daughter bday and she'll have a cookie cake.  I'll have a piece knowing there is dairy on it.  No biggie.

After a few months passed we did start to become aware of the environmental reasons as to why some people become vegan.  

curious how old your daughter is and how you generally handle her diet.  Mine is 13 and we pretty much eat all plant-based at home, but she really only wants to be vegetarian and we don't stop her from eating what she wants when not at home, though usually try to steer her toward at least non-dairy when we are out together, mainly for long-term health reasons (including increased carcinogenic risk and high cholesterol).  She is on board with not eating meat but struggles with cutting out dairy, eggs, and products that contain them and it causes a lot of conflict.  We are working on figuring out where to give and balance out adverse health effects (like yogurt, for instance).

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

I’ll punch a steer right in his GD face. 

 

[Arizona Ron]

I’ll punch a steer right in his GD face. 

 

[Koya]

I did plant based for 90% of my meals for about a year.  As I mentioned in another thread, I gained about 15lbs on it over the past year even while working out 4-5 times a week.  Options are slim so I would rely a lot of Mexican, Asian and Indian food when I'm out with clients.  Eating bagels in the morning etc. The carbs catch up to after a while.  Also, tofu will give you man-boobs so avoid it as a regular substitute for meat.   I basically substituted every beef dish with beans and every chicken dish with chickpeas (when reasonably possible). 

I did it because my total cholesterol started to creep up to 200.  It's down to 170 now. I'm doing keto now to get the weight back off.  I envision a diet with low, lean meat intake once I get back to where I want to be though.

Good luck on the health side of things, GB.  

 

[Scoresman]

I could not go vegan because I like to eat out too much.  I'm sorry but vegan menus are just AWFUL.  

 

[Steeler]

Dude. I saw into your mind's eye. You put half-and-half in one of those coffees in attempt to make me break vegan edge. I'll take the one with soy. [takes one of the coffees via telekenesis] Thanks, tool. [and he drinks from it]

  This movie is a guilty pleasure of mine  

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

do you happen to have any examples of dairy farms that you think are ethical and cruelty-free?

Organic Pastures Dairy in California, but they won't sell across state lines. Also St. Benoit. I'm not sure whether they sell in other states.

 

[jb1020]

curious how old your daughter is and how you generally handle her diet.  Mine is 13 and we pretty much eat all plant-based at home, but she really only wants to be vegetarian and we don't stop her from eating what she wants when not at home, though usually try to steer her toward at least non-dairy when we are out together, mainly for long-term health reasons (including increased carcinogenic risk and high cholesterol).  She is on board with not eating meat but struggles with cutting out dairy, eggs, and products that contain them and it causes a lot of conflict.  We are working on figuring out where to give and balance out adverse health effects (like yogurt, for instance).

We're not too strict on the kids, in fact we don't really bring it up at all with them.  Shes 6 and we have an 8 yo boy.  They're typical kids.  Neither of them really like red meat and I'm assuming its because they have never really seen it at our house.  

They eat pizza and mac n cheese, which is about the only dairy we buy them.  You can get vegetarian chicken nuggets, corn dogs and veggie burgers pretty easily now.  They like all of that stuff.  Otherwise they typically eat oatmeal or cereal for breakfast (Almond milk) and pb n j for lunch and snack on pretzels and crackers.  

I guess mine are at an age where they don't really know or have their own opinion about it yet.  

We've already talked about it and we won't ever force them one way or another.  Cutting out the dairy is the hardest part.  I was shocked at home many things had milk in it.  Damn near everything has milk in it, at least anything processed.  

 

[Scoresman]

I love how this thread exists at the same time as the Food thread where we're talking about veal ribs.  

 

[Koya]

@Maurile Tremblay had a great post (didn't want to quote since it was long).  I agree with just about everything he said.

I also wonder about why it would be "unethical" to eat foods that we literally have evolved to want and need (in a general sense), within the greater context of the natural order and reality of life, carnivores/omnivores, the role that they play in maintaining a balanced ecosystem, etc.  Obviously, you want to reduce any pain/suffering as much as possible, and certainly not go to efforts that drastically increase them, but I don't know that "eating meat" itself is unethical.  It is quite literally, the natural way of things.

To that end, pasture and naturally raised animals seem to be a good solution, and I wish there were more options and abundance (not just for me, but in general).  Fact is, many if not most people really don't care at all how much their food may or may not have suffered before/during being killed, and even folks like myself (and others who've mentioned similar thoughts in this thread) who try, but could certainly do a better job standing up for some principle and only eating responsibly sourced meat.

As an aside, my sister was vegetarian from the age of 11 or so on.  One day, when she was 32 or so, she, my mother and I went to dinner.  They chose the Palm Steak House (my fav of the chains, fwiw)... I thought it a little odd, but she ate seafood and they have awesome dishes there apparently; I wouldn't know since I don't like seafood. 

Waiter takes our order.  Her turn.  She orders a Bone In Sirloin or something.  Rare.   I'm in shock. Like, WTF are you doing, is this a joke? 

Turns out her doctor recommended that she begin eating meat, including (and perhaps in particular?) a small amount of beef.  She had health issues, significant ongoing pain and had gone to a series of specialists. The Doc told her she didn't "have" to do it, and there were other things she could do, but the natural foods would be best.  

Crazy to see my sis, who's entire adolescence and adulthood was being the Vegetarian of the family, manging down on a bloody rare steak. (Which I got, too)

 

[Koya]

We're not too strict on the kids, in fact we don't really bring it up at all with them.  Shes 6 and we have an 8 yo boy.  They're typical kids.  Neither of them really like red meat and I'm assuming its because they have never really seen it at our house.  

They eat pizza and mac n cheese, which is about the only dairy we buy them.  You can get vegetarian chicken nuggets, corn dogs and veggie burgers pretty easily now.  They like all of that stuff.  Otherwise they typically eat oatmeal or cereal for breakfast (Almond milk) and pb n j for lunch and snack on pretzels and crackers.  

I guess mine are at an age where they don't really know or have their own opinion about it yet.  

We've already talked about it and we won't ever force them one way or another.  Cutting out the dairy is the hardest part.  I was shocked at home many things had milk in it.  Damn near everything has milk in it, at least anything processed.  

This is similar to one of my best friend's approach. 

As the kids got older (they are about to enter high school), they had the choice to try or eat meat.  His wife (also a friend of mine, both from college) was the reason they all went Veggie, and my friend is a pretty go with it kinda dude. They are modern semi-hippie with a touch of yuppie, live by the beach in Sunset. Not overly ideological at all overall.

My friend would often grab meat when he was out of the house on his own, and sometimes in a group setting when his wife was also there. 

I think the boy not eats some meat, not sure about the girl. I should ask as now I'm curious. 

 

[dickey moe]

I did plant based for 90% of my meals for about a year.  As I mentioned in another thread, I gained about 15lbs on it over the past year even while working out 4-5 times a week.  Options are slim so I would rely a lot of Mexican, Asian and Indian food when I'm out with clients.  Eating bagels in the morning etc. The carbs catch up to after a while.  Also, tofu will give you man-boobs so avoid it as a regular substitute for meat.   I basically substituted every beef dish with beans and every chicken dish with chickpeas (when reasonably possible). 

I did it because my total cholesterol started to creep up to 200.  It's down to 170 now. I'm doing keto now to get the weight back off.  I envision a diet with low, lean meat intake once I get back to where I want to be though.

No cholesterol lowering drugs for you?

 

[Long Ball Larry]

 Also, tofu will give you man-boobs so avoid it as a regular substitute for meat.   I basically substituted every beef dish with beans and every chicken dish with chickpeas (when reasonably possible). 

I know that this is bandied about, but is this really true?  I have gained a little weight since going almost fully plant-based and kind of wonder why.  I might be drinking slightly more the past couple of months, but really not that much. 

 

[Sweet J]

We're not too strict on the kids, in fact we don't really bring it up at all with them.  Shes 6 and we have an 8 yo boy.  They're typical kids.  Neither of them really like red meat and I'm assuming its because they have never really seen it at our house.  

They eat pizza and mac n cheese, which is about the only dairy we buy them.  You can get vegetarian chicken nuggets, corn dogs and veggie burgers pretty easily now.  They like all of that stuff.  Otherwise they typically eat oatmeal or cereal for breakfast (Almond milk) and pb n j for lunch and snack on pretzels and crackers.  

I guess mine are at an age where they don't really know or have their own opinion about it yet.  

We've already talked about it and we won't ever force them one way or another.  Cutting out the dairy is the hardest part.  I was shocked at home many things had milk in it.  Damn near everything has milk in it, at least anything processed.  

My kids are 14 and 17.  They were raised vegetarian, not vegan.

Our approach is very close to @Maurile Tremblay, for dairy stuff.  Fortunately, since having a "real" job in 2000, I could afford stuff like organic farm raised/free range milk and eggs.  And we fully cut out meat. I used to be terrified that if I didn't give my son meet, he'd grow up to be skinny and slight and never have a chance to really grow bulk. But at 17, he's 6'1" and 180 full of muscle, and my daughter is 5'9" 165, again all muscle, so I guess I lucked out. (I also went overboard on the milk). 

I figured my vegeterianism was like someone else's christianity -- I can let our kids know our values, but welcome them to try all sorts of other options.  If they agreed with us, fine, if not, hopefully we raised them well enough to be thoughtful about it. My son took two semesters of culinary arts in high school, and enjoys cooking and eating different dishes that include meat (usually at school).  Our daughter still is vegg. 

 

[jb1020]

I figured my vegeterianism was like someone else's christianity -- I can let our kids know our values, but welcome them to try all sorts of other options.  If they agreed with us, fine, if not, hopefully we raised them well enough to be thoughtful about it. My son took two semesters of culinary arts in high school, and enjoys cooking and eating different dishes that include meat (usually at school).  Our daughter still is vegg. 

Thats a great comparison.  Our kids know where we stand, but I'll still encourage them to try other things.  I don't care if he orders bacon when we go to waffle house.

 

[drpill]

I'm pleasantly surprised to see reasonable discussion in here instead of rabid vegan-bashing that often occurs when the subject is brought up. Nice job, fbgs.

I've recently made the transition to veganism, after being ovo-lacto vegetarian for the past fifteen or twenty years. It's always been an ethical consideration for me, and I finally decided that I was being hypocritical in supporting the dairy and egg industry. Basically I felt I was kidding myself that eggs and dairy were not a violation of my desire to avoid harming animals for my own dietary convenience. Even "free range" hens lead a miserable life of mostly confinement, in most cases, and the egg industry slaughters millions of male chicks every year as they weed them out from the laying hens shortly after they hatch. Dairy, as has been mentioned, involves constant artificial insemination of cows and the removal of their calves immediately after they're born, which are then either penned up and slaughtered for veal (if they're male) or turned into milking cattle themselves, and eventually slaughtered when they're spent.

There's currently a lot of whitewashing of these industries with "ethical" labelling and while it's good to see that the producers have been forced to respond to an increase in concern over animal welfare, I think people are too quick to buy into comforting images of happy animals that are often little more than marketing gimmicks. I wouldn't necessarily object to anyone getting their milk or eggs from a small-scale producer that has been proven to treat animals humanely -- though I still think it's not really possible to avoid some of the issues I mentioned -- but I've realized that I don't need these things in my diet. I feel healthy, and it's not that difficult to replace eggs in cooking once you learn the tricks. My waffles taste just as good using applesauce as they ever did when they had eggs in them. Even vegan cheeses have come a long, long way in the past few years. I eat a lot of plant-based meats because they're convenient sources of proteins, and some of them are absolutely delicious. Maybe they don't compare to a juicy steak or burger, but that's a sacrifice I'm definitely willing to make.

Animal products like leather and even wool are problematic too, because the demand is so huge that they are industrialized in similar ways that meat production is. I used to think leather was just a byproduct of the meat industry, so better to use it than let it go to waste, but it turns out it's actually the skin of the cows that is most valuable in many parts of the world, and that the leather industry tends to drive the meat industry in some cases. Leather is an amazing material but I won't be buying it in the future. I'll use what I have until it wears out and then choose vegan options (some of which come with their own environmental issues, no doubt).

Veganism definitely doesn't need to be an all-or-nothing proposition. I try not to overanalyze labels looking for trace animal products -- vitamin D3 is often added to cereals, for example, and it's sourced from lanolin. Being 99% (or 90%) vegan is better than not trying at all, and I'm not going to kill myself trying to attain perfection. I also don't want to scare anyone away from attempting it themselves by making it look like an impossible task. Vegans who insist on this kind of fundamentalist approach do more harm than good, and they can't avoid a number of contradictions in their choices, as Maurile pointed out.

Most of the common objections to veganism are, quite frankly, silly or even stupid. "Plants have feelings too" is one of the dumbest. Yes, plants are alive, and yes, life by necessity involves death. There's no avoiding that. But clearly there is a spectrum of consciousness and sensitivity that needs to be considered. Only a psychopath could equate stomping on a kitten with pulling a radish out of the ground.

 

[drpill]

In recent weeks, I had a dinner companion who is a self-proclaimed "ethical vegan". I was intrigued enough to hear this persons point of view and reasons for altering their eating habits and lifestyle. In the days/meals I've had since, this life-choice decision has been bouncing around in my thought process. Now I have attempted to cut down on my red-meat consumption, but I still carry along with a steady diet of chicken/fish etc. in my eating habits. So for me...IF this were something for me to apply and adhere to....it would be a huge difference in dietary consumption. So my question to FBG's is this: For those who abide by this creed, what finally pushed you over the edge? And if you do practice this....how extreme do you maintain this?? (The person who was speaking to me about it did not partake in dairy/eggs/cheese's/etc.)

So yeah, as I mentioned, I try to be realistic. No eggs, no dairy, but trace amounts in other foods may be okay if I can't avoid it. I buy plant based milks, mostly almond as that's my taste preference (I know almonds are a water conservationist's nightmare) but there are many options -- hemp, oat, soy. There are effective ways to replace eggs in cooking, like flax seeds, applesauce, and aquafaba, which is, I kid you not, the water from cooking (or canned) chickpeas -- it works great. If I want a scramble I use tofu; add some black salt (kala namek) and it tastes a lot like eggs. Plant-based cheese used to be pretty sad but there are some really good ones these days. The art of vegan cheesemaking has come a long way. As for meat alternatives, they are pretty dang good too. Gardein and Field Roast products are ones I would personally recommend but I'm sure there are many good options.

Honestly, there is so much you can do when cooking without meat. If you're adventurous and have a bit of skill in the kitchen you need never feel like you're missing out on anything. The internet is filled with great recipes and tips. If you want to give it a try, don't feel like it needs to be all or nothing and the slightest failure means you should give up. Do your best, experiment, have fun. 

Would an ethical vegan eat lab grown meat?

I would. I can't wait for this to come to market. I think it will be a game changer for a lot of people.

 

[Borden]

@drpill This may end up being a really, really stupid question but... where do you stand on hunting?

 

[Chaos Commish]

I'm pleasantly surprised to see reasonable discussion in here instead of rabid vegan-bashing that often occurs when the subject is brought up. Nice job, fbgs.

I've recently made the transition to veganism, after being ovo-lacto vegetarian for the past fifteen or twenty years....

I agree with everything you wrote yet still I can't seem to amend my carnivorous habits. Last time I made it nearly 70 days. Losin' weight without speed, eatin' sunflower seeds. Drinkin' lots of carrot juice and soakin' up rays.  But at night I'd had these wonderful dreams. Some kind of sensuous treat. Not zucchini, fettucini or Bulgar wheat. But a big warm bun and a huge hunk of meat.  Cheeseburger in paradise. Heaven on earth with an onion slice. Not too particular not too precise. I'm just a cheeseburger in paradise.

 

[drpill]

@drpill This may end up being a really, really stupid question but... where do you stand on hunting?

I don't think it's a stupid question; it's actually one of the trickier ones, for me anyway. I know most vegans would never condone hunting, but as far as killing animals for food goes it's probably among the very most humane options, assuming we aren't talking about using gruesome bear traps or that sort of thing. The animal lives a natural life and its death is (hopefully) quick and painless and not preceded by a horrific experience. 

I personally have never hunted but my dad has always been a hunter and I have a certain respect for what he does. I don't think it's morally justified, exactly; most people aren't hunting out of necessity, but there is an intimacy there that is vastly different from how people usually connect with the meat they eat. The scale of hunting is also insignificant compared to industrial animal agriculture, and there are ecological arguments to be made for the need for hunting as well (I'm not educated enough about them to weigh the merits).

All in all, I can't really get very worked up about it. Hunting for sport is obviously a different matter, with very different considerations, and people who trophy hunt exotic animals for the thrill of it make me sick.

 

[Chaos Commish]

I don't think it's a stupid question; it's actually one of the trickier ones, for me anyway. I know most vegans would never condone hunting, but as far as killing animals for food goes it's probably among the very most humane options, assuming we aren't talking about using gruesome bear traps or that sort of thing. The animal lives a natural life and its death is (hopefully) quick and painless and not preceded by a horrific experience. 

I personally have never hunted but my dad has always been a hunter and I have a certain respect for what he does. I don't think it's morally justified, exactly; most people aren't hunting out of necessity, but there is an intimacy there that is vastly different from how people usually connect with the meat they eat. The scale of hunting is also insignificant compared to industrial animal agriculture, and there are ecological arguments to be made for the need for hunting as well (I'm not educated enough about them to weigh the merits).

All in all, I can't really get very worked up about it. Hunting for sport is obviously a different matter, with very different considerations, and people who trophy hunt exotic animals for the thrill of it make me sick.

Your posts are excellent. Sorry for being silly about it. I contemplate going vegetarian or vegan all the time lately, which is sort of what that dumb song is about.

 

[Borden]

I don't think it's a stupid question; it's actually one of the trickier ones, for me anyway. I know most vegans would never condone hunting, but as far as killing animals for food goes it's probably among the very most humane options, assuming we aren't talking about using gruesome bear traps or that sort of thing. The animal lives a natural life and its death is (hopefully) quick and painless and not preceded by a horrific experience. 

I personally have never hunted but my dad has always been a hunter and I have a certain respect for what he does. I don't think it's morally justified, exactly; most people aren't hunting out of necessity, but there is an intimacy there that is vastly different from how people usually connect with the meat they eat. The scale of hunting is also insignificant compared to industrial animal agriculture, and there are ecological arguments to be made for the need for hunting as well (I'm not educated enough about them to weigh the merits).

All in all, I can't really get very worked up about it. Hunting for sport is obviously a different matter, with very different considerations, and people who trophy hunt exotic animals for the thrill of it make me sick.

Wonderful answer. One more question though. You said that you don’t eat eggs. Would this change if you have your own chickens? Assuming of course that you are treating them like pets not egg machines.

 

[drpill]

Your posts are excellent. Sorry for being silly about it. I contemplate going vegetarian or vegan all the time lately, which is sort of what that dumb song is about.

Hah, thanks, and no worries -- I thought maybe it was a Weird Al deep cut until I looked it up. If you are veggie-curious I definitely suggest just giving it a whirl for a while. Don't take it too seriously, life's too short. But it's not as difficult as it used to be -- it's a sacrifice, but a pretty small one, in my opinion.

Wonderful answer. One more question though. You said that you don’t eat eggs. Would this change if you have your own chickens? Assuming of course that you are treating them like pets not egg machines.

I used to think about getting a back yard chicken coop, but they're still not allowed in my city. I wasn't vegan then, and I've really noticed I don't miss eggs as much as I thought I would, so at this point I'm confident I can do without. But I guess if I were serious about raising my own chickens I'd just want to get the hens from an ethical source, like say a small farm or someone else who raises chickens of their own. I'd want to avoid contributing to the problem of mass slaughter of male chicks, if I could, by avoiding the commercial chicken industry. Once I had some happy healthy chickens of my own I'm pretty sure I'd have no problem eating their eggs.

 

[Long Ball Larry]

So yeah, as I mentioned, I try to be realistic. No eggs, no dairy, but trace amounts in other foods may be okay if I can't avoid it. I buy plant based milks, mostly almond as that's my taste preference (I know almonds are a water conservationist's nightmare) but there are many options -- hemp, oat, soy. There are effective ways to replace eggs in cooking, like flax seeds, applesauce, and aquafaba, which is, I kid you not, the water from cooking (or canned) chickpeas -- it works great. If I want a scramble I use tofu; add some black salt (kala namek) and it tastes a lot like eggs. Plant-based cheese used to be pretty sad but there are some really good ones these days. The art of vegan cheesemaking has come a long way. As for meat alternatives, they are pretty dang good too. Gardein and Field Roast products are ones I would personally recommend but I'm sure there are many good options.

I find Daiya cheese to be the best tasting and melting, though not all that nutritious.  They use it at Mad Mex (local mex-ish chain) and a few other restaurants.  The Yard House (sporty beer bar chain, not sure how many locations) has a bunch of gardein items on the menu.  They are usually good and not too bad on the fat.  Quorn products (meatballs and chicken nuggets/patties which are actually made out of fungi) seem to be the ones that my daughter goes for the best.

The Beyond meat sausage and meatballs are rather good too.

And the aquafaba definitely works great in baking.

 

[Long Ball Larry]

In recent weeks, I had a dinner companion who is a self-proclaimed "ethical vegan". I was intrigued enough to hear this persons point of view and reasons for altering their eating habits and lifestyle. In the days/meals I've had since, this life-choice decision has been bouncing around in my thought process. Now I have attempted to cut down on my red-meat consumption, but I still carry along with a steady diet of chicken/fish etc. in my eating habits. So for me...IF this were something for me to apply and adhere to....it would be a huge difference in dietary consumption. So my question to FBG's is this: For those who abide by this creed, what finally pushed you over the edge? And if you do practice this....how extreme do you maintain this?? (The person who was speaking to me about it did not partake in dairy/eggs/cheese's/etc.)

This might help as a guide to make sure you are getting proper nutrition and foods to keep in mind to stay on track with whole foods: https://nutritionfacts.org/app/uploads/2018/03/metric.png

From what I have seen, the "junk-food" vegan is the least healthy diet, even worse than heavy meat eaters.

 

[Scoresman]

The only time I'd come close to "vegan bashing" is when they get annoyed that a restaurant only has a couple of vegan items.  Yeah, when your diet removes 75% of the ####### food pyramid, the chef's options are gonna be kinda limited.