Falcons OC blames Vick for passing game woes: (1 Viewer)

[perry147]

From CBSSportsline:

In an interview with Cris Carter on HBO's Inside the NFL, Falcons QB Michael Vick expressed his disappointment with the offense and wished he could throw to more talented receivers. Whan asked about the offense, Vick said, "You've got to throw the ball sometimes. You can't just line up and run the ball every time on first and second down. Teams key in on that and they have coaches, too. We're going to have to throw it more ... Coach (Jim Mora) is going have to trust in me to get it done and I'm up to the challenge to get it done." Vick also wondered aloud what it would be like to throw to Chad Johnson, Randy Moss or Marvin Harrison.

It looks like Vick is defending himself and blaming his WR's.

Is this a team on the meltdown?

PS: And for those wondering - no I did not misspell 'when' as 'whan' that is exactly how CBSSportsline had it.

Amazing because in an interview this before the season started, he said he was going to do what he does best and that's run the ball. He's doing it his way. And this after he spent alot of time in the offseason working with his WR's and praising their development. Let's review some additional insight to the problem:"October 2, 2006, 14:45

Falcons :: QB

QB Mi. Vick Struggling With Fundamentals

George Henry, Sporting News - [Full Article]

Atlanta Falcons QB Michael Vick is having problems making reads and using proper footwork in the red zone. Vick is throwing off his front foot a lot, and the offense line is providing terrible interior protection. In the red zone, poor play-calling is causing Vick and the offense to press too much. "

While this one has no real merit I thought it was an interesting observation:

"August 26, 2006, 08:55

Titans, Falcons :: QB

QB Young Shuns QB Vick Comparison

Teresa M. Walker, Associated Press - [Full Article]

Vince Young has been called the latest version of Michael Vick, an athletic quarterback who runs first, throws second. The rookie begs to differ. "I'm Vince. He's Mike. I support him a whole lot because he opened a lot of doors for me as well as other quarterbacks, young guys coming up. In a way, I'm a little bit different. I'm 6-5. I'm lanky. He's a little smaller back," Young said. And one other thing. "I look to pass first and run second," Young said"

This one is more evidence from Vick himself. Notice the bolded comment:

"August 13, 2006, 13:10

Falcons :: QB

The QB/Runner Debate Continues With QB Vick

AP - [Full Article]

Every now and then, the criticism gets to Michael Vick. Last year, after resembling a traditional quarterback in a win at Miami, Vick told all the cynics to quit harping on his unique style and acknowledge that he could be effective as a dropback passer when he really put his mind to it. But, as the Atlanta Falcons fell apart down the stretch, the Vick-isn't-a-real-quarterback lobby got louder. Vick has come to realize he'll always be a convenient target of those who say a quarterback should hone his passing skills and leave the running to others. "

"July 27, 2006, 19:47

NFL :: Falcons :: QB

QB Vick Vows to Give Super Effort in 2006

CHARLES ODUM, AP Sports Writer, Yahoo Sports - [Full Article]

Falcons QB Michael Vick questions his performance in last season's final game and looks to improve leadership skills in 2006. "

This is the article I remember the most:

"July 25, 2006, 19:05

Falcons :: QB

QB Vick Looking To Run More

Jarrett Bell, USA Today - [Full Article]

QB Michael Vick expects to take it to the next lever this year. Knowing he'll never be a prototype passer, he plans to embrace his open-field running gifts in 2006. "It's not like I was trying to become a pocket passer. It's not what God put me on this Earth to do. My thing is, get me on the move," he says. "

"July 22, 2006, 18:13

Falcons :: WR

WR White Preparing For Breakout Year

Charles Odum, Associated Press - [Full Article]

WR Roddy White feels that the extra time he has spent with QB Michael Vick this off-season will pay big dividends this upcoming season. "I'm prepping myself to have a breakout year, and I'm doing everything I can to be ready to do that," White said. After starting out the 2005 season with only 5 catches, White finished strong with 19 receptions in his last 7 games and scored 2 of his 3 total touchdowns in the last 4 games. "

"July 21, 2006, 14:39

Falcons :: QB

QB Mi. Vick Running Out Of Excuses?

Ray Glier, MSNBC.com - [Full Article]

It is getting easier to shrug at Michael Vick. His passer rating was 25th in the NFL last season. But it is a stat that comes with complexities, as Vick was sacked a lot because of poor protection. The Falcons are a run-first team. He did not have a big-play receiver on the outside he would trust. Then again, the receivers he has, he misses, except for tight end Alge Crumpler. Vick cannot beat tight man-to-man with a throw through the head of a needle. He forces passes against a zone. More disappointing numbers--Vick has 29 touchdown passes and 25 interceptions the last two years. That is not a good ratio."

So while some is opinions of writers, much is from Vick himself. So if Vick says he's not a good pocket passer, and if the analysts say he's not a good pocket passer and if the stats prove that he's not a good pocket passer, then why would someone, anyone state an opinion (without anything to back it up) that he's a good pocket passer?

Family Matters

 

[Big Score]

The problem with the folks that are blaming the WR's, specificly Michael Jenkins, is that they keep referring to 1 play. In some cases they want us to believe that Crumpler dropped "alot" of passes. But apparently there are professionals that disagree with those folks. They record stats for the NFL and they seem to think those were not dropped passes, at least not all of them. They were actually at the game, not watching on TV with small snapshots to base their judgement on. They are trained to make these judgements.

The NFL does NOT keep "Dropped Passes" as an official stat.The only place I know that attempts to keep a stat line on "Dropped Passes" is Stats.inc & they rely on News Paper Reporters for their numbers, who are NOT trained to make those judgements.

I personally watched Crumpler drop a TD pass on the Falcons 1st offensive possesion against the Saints. He had the ball in his hands, no DB touched him and he simply dropped it.

I personally watched Michael Jenkins run a route to the 1 yard line, throw the defender to the ground have the ball fall perfectly into his hands....& drop it.

I personally watched Roddy White at the Giants 1 yard line have the ball hit him squarely in the middle of both of his hands, only to see him let it carom off for the interception.

These few examples are what I mean by you needing to actually "watch" the games. That way you could have an actual first hand valid & informed opinion, as opposed to going off of someone elses stats to draw your conclusions, on games that you never saw.

 

[redman]

"July 21, 2006, 14:39 Falcons :: QBQB Mi. Vick Running Out Of Excuses?Ray Glier, MSNBC.com - [Full Article]It is getting easier to shrug at Michael Vick. His passer rating was 25th in the NFL last season. But it is a stat that comes with complexities, as Vick was sacked a lot because of poor protection. The Falcons are a run-first team. He did not have a big-play receiver on the outside he would trust. Then again, the receivers he has, he misses, except for tight end Alge Crumpler. Vick cannot beat tight man-to-man with a throw through the head of a needle. He forces passes against a zone. More disappointing numbers--Vick has 29 touchdown passes and 25 interceptions the last two years. That is not a good ratio."So while some is opinions of writers, much is from Vick himself. So if Vick says he's not a good pocket passer, and if the analysts say he's not a good pocket passer and if the stats prove that he's not a good pocket passer, then why would someone, anyone state an opinion (without anything to back it up) that he's a good pocket passer?

The better question would be why would you put an extremely mobile QB with a strong arm but who is innaccurate and who makes poor reads into a WCO system that emphasizes pocket passing and accurate throwing to precise spots on the field on timing routes that are adjusted on the fly based upon reads? What sense does that make? I think Vick has suffered from idiotically rigid adherence by his coaches to the offensive schemes that they're most comfortable with rather than a scheme that plays to Vick's unique talent.

 

[Da Guru]

The problem with the folks that are blaming the WR's, specificly Michael Jenkins, is that they keep referring to 1 play. In some cases they want us to believe that Crumpler dropped "alot" of passes. But apparently there are professionals that disagree with those folks. They record stats for the NFL and they seem to think those were not dropped passes, at least not all of them. They were actually at the game, not watching on TV with small snapshots to base their judgement on. They are trained to make these judgements.

The NFL does NOT keep "Dropped Passes" as an official stat.The only place I know that attempts to keep a stat line on "Dropped Passes" is Stats.inc & they rely on News Paper Reporters for their numbers, who are NOT trained to make those judgements.

I personally watched Crumpler drop a TD pass on the Falcons 1st offensive possesion against the Saints. He had the ball in his hands, no DB touched him and he simply dropped it.

I personally watched Michael Jenkins run a route to the 1 yard line, throw the defender to the ground have the ball fall perfectly into his hands....& drop it.

I personally watched Roddy White at the Giants 1 yard line have the ball hit him squarely in the middle of both of his hands, only to see him let it carom off for the interception.

These few examples are what I mean by you needing to actually "watch" the games. That way you could have an actual first hand valid & informed opinion, as opposed to going off of someone elses stats to draw your conclusions, on games that you never saw.

You are talking about "ONE" game. How many hundreds of passes has Vick mis-fired in his career? I don`t even watch Atlanta much but I can remember a number of times Vick one hopping a throw into a wide open WR. Or sailing a swing pass over the RBs head.

 

[Family Matters]

The problem with the folks that are blaming the WR's, specificly Michael Jenkins, is that they keep referring to 1 play. In some cases they want us to believe that Crumpler dropped "alot" of passes. But apparently there are professionals that disagree with those folks. They record stats for the NFL and they seem to think those were not dropped passes, at least not all of them. They were actually at the game, not watching on TV with small snapshots to base their judgement on. They are trained to make these judgements.

The NFL does NOT keep "Dropped Passes" as an official stat.The only place I know that attempts to keep a stat line on "Dropped Passes" is Stats.inc & they rely on News Paper Reporters for their numbers, who are NOT trained to make those judgements.

I personally watched Crumpler drop a TD pass on the Falcons 1st offensive possesion against the Saints. He had the ball in his hands, no DB touched him and he simply dropped it.

I personally watched Michael Jenkins run a route to the 1 yard line, throw the defender to the ground have the ball fall perfectly into his hands....& drop it.

I personally watched Roddy White at the Giants 1 yard line have the ball hit him squarely in the middle of both of his hands, only to see him let it carom off for the interception.

These few examples are what I mean by you needing to actually "watch" the games. That way you could have an actual first hand valid & informed opinion, as opposed to going off of someone elses stats to draw your conclusions, on games that you never saw.

Well I have found the dropped passes at 2 sites so far. As to your point that it's not an official stat, I always thought it was because it's used all the time when you hear the discussion of WR's and QB's come up. So even if we do not look at that, are you suggesting we also do not look at comp % as a viable stat as JWB suggested? Should we ignore Vick's own words that he's not a good poket passer? Was he lieing? How can everything we use to make our analysis (and the pros) and the QB's own ackowledgement that he's not good and continue to demy the obvious? You can argue a point here and there but you cannot ignore the overwelming evidence and self admission.

When does the madness end?

 

[Family Matters]

The problem with the folks that are blaming the WR's, specificly Michael Jenkins, is that they keep referring to 1 play. In some cases they want us to believe that Crumpler dropped "alot" of passes. But apparently there are professionals that disagree with those folks. They record stats for the NFL and they seem to think those were not dropped passes, at least not all of them. They were actually at the game, not watching on TV with small snapshots to base their judgement on. They are trained to make these judgements.

The NFL does NOT keep "Dropped Passes" as an official stat.The only place I know that attempts to keep a stat line on "Dropped Passes" is Stats.inc & they rely on News Paper Reporters for their numbers, who are NOT trained to make those judgements.

I personally watched Crumpler drop a TD pass on the Falcons 1st offensive possesion against the Saints. He had the ball in his hands, no DB touched him and he simply dropped it.

I personally watched Michael Jenkins run a route to the 1 yard line, throw the defender to the ground have the ball fall perfectly into his hands....& drop it.

I personally watched Roddy White at the Giants 1 yard line have the ball hit him squarely in the middle of both of his hands, only to see him let it carom off for the interception.

These few examples are what I mean by you needing to actually "watch" the games. That way you could have an actual first hand valid & informed opinion, as opposed to going off of someone elses stats to draw your conclusions, on games that you never saw.

You are talking about "ONE" game. How many hundreds of passes has Vick mis-fired in his career? I don`t even watch Atlanta much but I can remember a number of times Vick one hopping a throw into a wide open WR. Or sailing a swing pass over the RBs head.

It's called selective observation. They want to find 1 dropped pass to hang Vick's carrer on because they have nothing else in which to make their arguement.Oh and the stats are wrong too. The comp % doesn't fairly represent the truth because he doesn't pass enough.

 

[juveduke]

I guess if Vick sucks because of his WR's, then Trent Green shouldn't have ever thrown for 4,000yds. I mean, Eddie Kennison...seriously? Who the hell is McNabb throwing to? Brady lost every receiver under 40yrs old from last year, and he's still seems to be doing fine (yes, his numbers are down, but he's still better than Vick).

Green had a much better line, Vermeil, and is simply a better passer. Same with McNabb and Brady.

 

[Big Score]

The problem with the folks that are blaming the WR's, specificly Michael Jenkins, is that they keep referring to 1 play. In some cases they want us to believe that Crumpler dropped "alot" of passes. But apparently there are professionals that disagree with those folks. They record stats for the NFL and they seem to think those were not dropped passes, at least not all of them. They were actually at the game, not watching on TV with small snapshots to base their judgement on. They are trained to make these judgements.

The NFL does NOT keep "Dropped Passes" as an official stat.The only place I know that attempts to keep a stat line on "Dropped Passes" is Stats.inc & they rely on News Paper Reporters for their numbers, who are NOT trained to make those judgements.

I personally watched Crumpler drop a TD pass on the Falcons 1st offensive possesion against the Saints. He had the ball in his hands, no DB touched him and he simply dropped it.

I personally watched Michael Jenkins run a route to the 1 yard line, throw the defender to the ground have the ball fall perfectly into his hands....& drop it.

I personally watched Roddy White at the Giants 1 yard line have the ball hit him squarely in the middle of both of his hands, only to see him let it carom off for the interception.

These few examples are what I mean by you needing to actually "watch" the games. That way you could have an actual first hand valid & informed opinion, as opposed to going off of someone elses stats to draw your conclusions, on games that you never saw.

You are talking about "ONE" game. How many hundreds of passes has Vick mis-fired in his career? I don`t even watch Atlanta much but I can remember a number of times Vick one hopping a throw into a wide open WR. Or sailing a swing pass over the RBs head.

Well actually the Saints & Giants were two different games Da Guru.How many games would you like me to review for you & how far would you like me to go back?

How about the Denver game two years ago? Vick threw a perfect bomb to Jenkins, who had a couple of steps on his defender, and the ball dropped right into & then threw his hands?

I was only giving examples of the more recent games, as they're still fresh in peoples minds. Especially the Monday Night game against the Saints, as that was a nationally televised game and most people here watched it.

But if you need me to go back further & give you even more examples, I can. Would you like me to do that for you Da Guru?

 

[Big Score]

The problem with the folks that are blaming the WR's, specificly Michael Jenkins, is that they keep referring to 1 play. In some cases they want us to believe that Crumpler dropped "alot" of passes. But apparently there are professionals that disagree with those folks. They record stats for the NFL and they seem to think those were not dropped passes, at least not all of them. They were actually at the game, not watching on TV with small snapshots to base their judgement on. They are trained to make these judgements.

The NFL does NOT keep "Dropped Passes" as an official stat.The only place I know that attempts to keep a stat line on "Dropped Passes" is Stats.inc & they rely on News Paper Reporters for their numbers, who are NOT trained to make those judgements.

I personally watched Crumpler drop a TD pass on the Falcons 1st offensive possesion against the Saints. He had the ball in his hands, no DB touched him and he simply dropped it.

I personally watched Michael Jenkins run a route to the 1 yard line, throw the defender to the ground have the ball fall perfectly into his hands....& drop it.

I personally watched Roddy White at the Giants 1 yard line have the ball hit him squarely in the middle of both of his hands, only to see him let it carom off for the interception.

These few examples are what I mean by you needing to actually "watch" the games. That way you could have an actual first hand valid & informed opinion, as opposed to going off of someone elses stats to draw your conclusions, on games that you never saw.

You are talking about "ONE" game. How many hundreds of passes has Vick mis-fired in his career? I don`t even watch Atlanta much but I can remember a number of times Vick one hopping a throw into a wide open WR. Or sailing a swing pass over the RBs head.

It's called selective observation. They want to find 1 dropped pass to hang Vick's carrer on because they have nothing else in which to make their arguement.Oh and the stats are wrong too. The comp % doesn't fairly represent the truth because he doesn't pass enough.

As in my above post responding to Da Guru and to alleviate the suggestion of "selective observation", how many examples of dropped passes or the WR's not working back to the QB would you like for me to give & how far should I go back?I will say that I think any observations (selective or not) is a much better way to form an opinion than no observations. Flawed & incorrect conclusions can be the end result, if basing an opinion on nothing more than stats.

Also, it was already pointed out via basic mathematics, that when a smaller amount of passes are attempted and are dropped, it results in a much more significant impact to the completion % than if a higher amount of passes are attempted but with the same amount of drops.

That is simply an inescapable mathematical fact.

 

[Big Score]

Well I have found the dropped passes at 2 sites so far.

Would you share those two sites with us FM?TIA.

 

[Wilbur Wood]

The NFL passer rating is in need of an overhaul.

I would recommend the following changes:

#1 Still scale everything on a max 158.3 for a familiar frame of reference.

#2 Redefine "yards per attempt" to expand pass attempts to include both sacks and scrambles in the denominator and yards gained via scramble and lost via a sack in the numerator.

#3 Include QB rushing TDs in the "TD per pass attempt" part of the formula

#4 Add a 5th variable to the formula (beyond the current 4 --- TD per pass attempt, completion %, yds per attempt, interception %) which would be "3rd down conversion %". This "3rd down conversion %" would also include scrambles/sacks in the denominator and scramlbes for 1st downs in the numerator.

These types of changes would much more "fairly" incorporate both the positive attributes that the running QB brings to the table, yet at the same time penalizes both the Vick's, Culpepper and Bledsoe's for sacks and also places an appropriate level of import on the value of moving the chains.

 

[bigupsetter]

Of course Vick's to blame for the passing game. Why is this a question? Yes, the receivers drop balls they shouldn't, but ALL QBs have receivers who drop balls they shouldn't. The majority of the woes in the passing game are on Vick.I'm not exactly going to be shocked if this becomes much more relevant, obviously.

It already is, on HBO NFL show last night, Costas interviews Vick who says 'he wants to pass more", what a joke because last year vick says he wants to run an option style offense. Mora has spent the last few seasons trying to get vick into the West Coast offense. This is a joke, they cant pass b/c they dont gameplan to pass, dont blame the wr- they are probably surprised that ball is being thrown.Looks like they're looking for someone to throw under the bus in ATL. Its easy to beat ATL, stop the run and make vick throw.

 

[Tau837]

are you suggesting we also do not look at comp % as a viable stat as JWB suggested?

Please stop misquoting me. I did not say that, and I have already clarified that once. Your reading comprehension needs work.

 

[Da Guru]

Dropped passes and good catches go hand in hand.

I have seen Reggie Wayne and Marvin Harrison both drop a number of balls this year alone. I assuse you in Vicks career the mis-fired passes outweigh the drops ten fold.

 

[Tau837]

I have seen Reggie Wayne and Marvin Harrison both drop a number of balls this year alone. I assuse you in Vicks career the mis-fired passes outweigh the drops ten fold.

That may be, but:(a) the number of drops relative to the number of passing attempts by the Colts is a smaller percentage, so those affect Manning and the Colts less(b) Harrison and Wayne more than make up for their drops with their playmaking, something Vick's receivers do not do

 

[Big Score]

I have seen Reggie Wayne and Marvin Harrison both drop a number of balls this year alone.

Maybe you've seen Wayne drop a few, but I know you haven't seen Harrison "drop a number of balls this year".

 

[crimsonrebel]

im surprised no one has compared vick to his cousin brooks yet. For years, brooks was a good fantasy option, just like vick, but a sub optimal QB by nfl standards. Great athletic ability, but poor decision making. Must be a genetic thing. I know schaub hasnt started may games, but the recievers didnt look quite as bad when he did start. Why is that? If the blame for vick goes to his lack of passing attempts, cant we also blame the recievers performance on the same thing? If a qb passes 15 times a game, hed almost have to throw all of them at the 1-2 recievers for that player to have a good game. HMMM.... Rothlesberger didnt have many attempts last year, yet Hines Ward had a pretty good year. Oh thats right, Rothlesberger had a high completion percentage.

 

[Family Matters]

Here are some additional 2006 stats (from Stats Inc and Exite) you can look at as Vick the passer:

%of TD's per attempt:

Vick is 16th in the NFC, and 29th out of 36 QB's ranked including Collins,Simms, Harrington, Cpep, B. Johnson. Big Ben, Walter and Plummer.

% pass comp in close games:

16th in NFC and 32nd out 37.

QB rating:

17th NFC and 28th NFL.

% of passes int'd: his best rating of so far.

11th NFC and 19th NFL.

YDS per attempt:

16th NFC and 32nd NFL.

We can on and on. The one that disproves the arguement of "he doesn't have that many attempts" is the low yds per attempt rating of which he is 32nd.

For those of you whose best arguement to me has been I am only looking at stats, well I can assure I've seen enough of his games to know he's a bad decision maker on the field. Have you guys asked yourself "why does Vick take off running when he could be throwing the ball"?. Maybe Vick's repsonse says it best when he states "I'm not a pocket passer".

Also, there have been some very good posts that describe the problem from guys who are at the games. Why are they being ignored? At the game observations of Vick's problems and you guys want to point to some dropped passes.

Lastly, for those of you that think good WR's don't drop balls, here an interesting list:

Wayne= 4

A. Johnson = 3

Walker= 3

Harrison= 2

McCardell= 2

S. Smith= 5

Driver= 4

LJ Smith= 4

Fitzgerald= 3

D Jax= 3

Barber= 2

TO = 2

So as you can see drops happen by all good WR's for the most part. To say that the ATL WR's are dropping more than anyone else isn't exactly fair. Maybe if Vick threw to them more and ran less they'd catch more.

Fell free to post some stats that support his success on the field throwing the ball. I'll gladly acknowledge them if there are any.

 

[Big Score]

Lastly, for those of you that think good WR's don't drop balls, here an interesting list:Wayne= 4A. Johnson = 3Walker= 3Harrison= 2McCardell= 2S. Smith= 5Driver= 4LJ Smith= 4Fitzgerald= 3D Jax= 3Barber= 2TO = 2

Once again, would you please share your source for these stats FM?TIA

 

[shadow2k]

Seriously...what system will an inaccurate QB do well in? Because I guess that's what ATL needs. A system in which a crappy passer can excel. Good luck figuring that one out.

Vick was a GREAT college QB. His not a a pro-level QB. That's not going to change, I'm sorry. And don't tell me about his W/L record, there are 52 other guys on that team. Hell, Steve Bono went 13-3 one year with the Chiefs, and even won a playoff game. He has a great career win % for games he started, but nobody would ever mistake him for a good QB.

I find that statement extremely niave. He can make defenders look absolutely SILLY on the pro level, he is the most exciting QB to watch in the league, he puts fans into the seats, he wins much more games then he loses for the Falcons and he does have one of the strongest arms in the NFL.I find it ignorant, because someone is not a stereotypical QB that he is not "pro-level." He would not be the starting QB if he wasnt Pro-Level... thats just a simple 2+2=4.

I appreciate Vick as a Different QB, if everyone thought like Shadow2K everythign would be ONE way and every other way is wrong or amateur... thank God thats not true.

Don't compare Vick to Green. Green is an excellent pocket passer. I guess I could say Green is not a Pro-Level QB because he can't scramble very well... I mean... ### for tat.

Yes, he can make defenders look silly...as a freakin RB. Unfortunately, he has never been able to consistently beat defenders with his arm, which is what a QB at the pro-level HAS to be able to do. I mean, if ATL gets down by 10pts, it's virtually game over at that point. That's just sad, and it's because everyone knows Vick's chances of bringing his team back into the game by throwing the rock are about as likely as you understanding that point.I personally don't find him very exciting to watch, but that's just me. I like seeing QB's throwing the ball, and RB's running the ball. Vick doesn't put any more fans in the seats than if some other QB was back behind center passing the ball, and the team was winning. Winning puts fans in the seats. And I think I already addressed the fact about the W/L record. But just to be clear, what tires people most about the Vick debate is that Vick supporters will always point to the success as being due to Vick, but none of the failures have ever been his fault. What a joke. By the way, what good is it that he can throw the ball a really long way if he can't figure out where it's going to go when he let's it fly? Yeah, great arm...unfortunatley, it's not accurate...which is not a good thing.

Is Vick a prototypical NFL QB? Of course not. But that's not why I think he sucks. I think he sucks, because he makes his team one dimensional. Against good run D's, or anytime ATL falls behind...they're basically dead in the water. If that's what you like, more power to you. I'm just glad he doesn't play for my team.

 

[Blue-Kun]

Lastly, for those of you that think good WR's don't drop balls, here an interesting list:

Wayne= 4

A. Johnson = 3

Walker= 3

Harrison= 2

McCardell= 2

S. Smith= 5

Driver= 4

LJ Smith= 4

Fitzgerald= 3

D Jax= 3

Barber= 2

TO = 2

Once again, would you please share your source for these stats FM?TIA

Pretty sure he got them from here: http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/index.asphttp://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/leader...2&Submit=Go

 

[Big Score]

Lastly, for those of you that think good WR's don't drop balls, here an interesting list:

Wayne= 4

A. Johnson = 3

Walker= 3

Harrison= 2

McCardell= 2

S. Smith= 5

Driver= 4

LJ Smith= 4

Fitzgerald= 3

D Jax= 3

Barber= 2

TO = 2

Once again, would you please share your source for these stats FM?TIA

Pretty sure he got them from here: http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/index.asphttp://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/leader...2&Submit=Go

I figured that was one of them, where they use News Paper Reporters for their "Dropped Passes" stats, but he said he had another source for dropped passes & I was wondering what that source was?

 

[Big Score]

Vick doesn't put any more fans in the seats than if some other QB was back behind center passing the ball, and the team was winning.

Extremely ignorant statement.The Falcons sold out the Georgia Dome immediately upon the announcement of Vick being drafted & have ever since.My understanding is also that on road games when Vick plays at a normally non sold out stadium, ticket sales for that particular stadium & game spike.

 

[Gr00vus]

I think this is one of those cases where everybody may be right.

It sure looks to me like Vick is an inaccurate passer, he's got receivers who are below average in the hands department AND up to now he's been in a system that is in conflict with his abilities.

 

[Da Guru]

Vick doesn't put any more fans in the seats than if some other QB was back behind center passing the ball, and the team was winning.

Extremely ignorant statement.The Falcons sold out the Georgia Dome immediately upon the announcement of Vick being drafted & have ever since.My understanding is also that on road games when Vick plays at a normally non sold out stadium, ticket sales for that particular stadium & game spike.

The Detroit Lions sell out every home game! NFL Football is booming. The Falcons would pack the house with any QB.

 

[Big Score]

Vick doesn't put any more fans in the seats than if some other QB was back behind center passing the ball, and the team was winning.

Extremely ignorant statement.The Falcons sold out the Georgia Dome immediately upon the announcement of Vick being drafted & have ever since.My understanding is also that on road games when Vick plays at a normally non sold out stadium, ticket sales for that particular stadium & game spike.

The Detroit Lions sell out every home game! NFL Football is booming. The Falcons would pack the house with any QB.

Prior to Vick, the Georgia Dome had only sold out 1 year & that was in 1999 after Dan Reeves got them their Superbowl appearance. Prior to that at Atlanta Fulton County Stadium sell outs were few & far between. 1992, the year after Jerry Glanville got the Falcons to a 10 & 6 record & the year after Bartkowski took the Falcons to the NFC Divisonal Play-Offs in 1981 & that's about it.Down here in Georgia, College football is King & the Bulldogs rule.

 

[Fla\/\/ed]

Vick doesn't put any more fans in the seats than if some other QB was back behind center passing the ball, and the team was winning.

Extremely ignorant statement.The Falcons sold out the Georgia Dome immediately upon the announcement of Vick being drafted & have ever since.My understanding is also that on road games when Vick plays at a normally non sold out stadium, ticket sales for that particular stadium & game spike.

The Detroit Lions sell out every home game! NFL Football is booming. The Falcons would pack the house with any QB.

Prior to Vick, the Georgia Dome had only sold out 1 year & that was in 1999 after Dan Reeves got them their Superbowl appearance. Prior to that at Atlanta Fulton County Stadium sell outs were few & far between. 1992, the year after Jerry Glanville got the Falcons to a 10 & 6 record & the year after Bartkowski took the Falcons to the NFC Divisonal Play-Offs in 1981 & that's about it.Down here in Georgia, College football is King & the Bulldogs rule.

What does that have to do with their point that the Falcons could be selling out now that they are winning no matter who the QB may be.

 

[Big Score]

Here's one example of what those who actually watch & follow the Falcons, get to see on a weekly basis. :(

Michael Jenkins

 

[shadow2k]

Vick doesn't put any more fans in the seats than if some other QB was back behind center passing the ball, and the team was winning.

Extremely ignorant statement.The Falcons sold out the Georgia Dome immediately upon the announcement of Vick being drafted & have ever since.My understanding is also that on road games when Vick plays at a normally non sold out stadium, ticket sales for that particular stadium & game spike.

So you're telling me that a winning team without a gimmick QB can't sell out their stadium? I mean, didn't the Falcons manage to sellout games with Chris Chandler at QB, simply because they weren't the 49'rs doormat anymore? Hell, Arrowhead (79,000+) has been sold out 127 straight games if you include five postseason games. That's every single game since 9/1/91...when they beat the Falcons. They have a 93-34 record at home over that streak. It's funny how simply winning can put butts in the seats.Heck, just look at the Braves. Attendance was under 1mil in 90, and doubled when they won that first of eleven division titles, and at one point, were nearly sold out for every home game. I think they drew around 4mil one year. And now that they aren't in the playoffs every year...how's that attendance doing? Winning puts butts in the seats. Always have. Sure, you can do it with a gimmick QB as well. But I'd rather have a winning team with a good QB.

 

[Big Score]

Vick doesn't put any more fans in the seats than if some other QB was back behind center passing the ball, and the team was winning.

Extremely ignorant statement.The Falcons sold out the Georgia Dome immediately upon the announcement of Vick being drafted & have ever since.

My understanding is also that on road games when Vick plays at a normally non sold out stadium, ticket sales for that particular stadium & game spike.

So you're telling me that a winning team without a gimmick QB can't sell out their stadium? I mean, didn't the Falcons manage to sellout games with Chris Chandler at QB, simply because they weren't the 49'rs doormat anymore? Hell, Arrowhead (79,000+) has been sold out 127 straight games if you include five postseason games. That's every single game since 9/1/91...when they beat the Falcons. They have a 93-34 record at home over that streak. It's funny how simply winning can put butts in the seats.

Heck, just look at the Braves. Attendance was under 1mil in 90, and doubled when they won that first of eleven division titles, and at one point, were nearly sold out for every home game. I think they drew around 4mil one year. And now that they aren't in the playoffs every year...how's that attendance doing?

Winning puts butts in the seats. Always have. Sure, you can do it with a gimmick QB as well. But I'd rather have a winning team with a good QB.

Guess you missed this post;

Prior to Vick, the Georgia Dome had only sold out 1 year & that was in 1999 after Dan Reeves got them their Superbowl appearance. Prior to that at Atlanta Fulton County Stadium sell outs were few & far between. 1992, the year after Jerry Glanville got the Falcons to a 10 & 6 record & the year after Bartkowski took the Falcons to the NFC Divisonal Play-Offs in 1981 & that's about it.

Down here in Georgia, College football is King & the Bulldogs rule.

Also, even those years that they've sold out prior to Vick, there have been a ton of no shows for games.That doesn't happen with Vick, whether the Falcons are winning or not. If he's playing, the Georgia Dome is FULL!!!

 

[Family Matters]

Lastly, for those of you that think good WR's don't drop balls, here an interesting list:Wayne= 4A. Johnson = 3Walker= 3Harrison= 2McCardell= 2S. Smith= 5Driver= 4LJ Smith= 4Fitzgerald= 3D Jax= 3Barber= 2TO = 2

Once again, would you please share your source for these stats FM?TIA

It was in the first line of my post. Excite and Stats Inc. So now I wonder, are really reading my posts?

 

[Family Matters]

Vick doesn't put any more fans in the seats than if some other QB was back behind center passing the ball, and the team was winning.

Extremely ignorant statement.The Falcons sold out the Georgia Dome immediately upon the announcement of Vick being drafted & have ever since.My understanding is also that on road games when Vick plays at a normally non sold out stadium, ticket sales for that particular stadium & game spike.

I have to agree with you because he does sell tickets and ratings. His entertainment value isn't in question as far as I am concerned. Just his ability as a passer.

 

[Big Score]

His entertainment value isn't in question as far as I am concerned. Just his ability as a passer.

With Vick making throws like this & his WR's constantly making these kind of plays on those throws, I think you should be questioning the abilities of other players perhaps?

 

[Family Matters]

Here's one example of what those who actually watch & follow the Falcons, get to see on a weekly basis. :(

Michael Jenkins

Once again we have 1 example of a WR not making a play while falling to the ground. Not exactly the best example but let's go with it seeing how you feel this is the way to go. You'r estarting to sound like the defense lawyer who provides 1 example of "what can happen" if they always drop those. But we know they don't.Care to show us some of the misfires from Vick? Or are they someone else's fault?

Seriously, you are not being objective on this which is not like you. What's going on Big Score? Where's the objectivity?

 

[Fla\/\/ed]

Here's one example of what those who actually watch & follow the Falcons, get to see on a weekly basis. :(

Michael Jenkins

Seriously, you are not being objective on this which is not like you. What's going on Big Score? Where's the objectivity?

He isn't nearly as objective on topics as you'd like to believe.

 

[Big Score]

Here's one example of what those who actually watch & follow the Falcons, get to see on a weekly basis. :(

Michael Jenkins

Once again we have 1 example of a WR not making a play while falling to the ground. Not exactly the best example but let's go with it seeing how you feel this is the way to go. You'r estarting to sound like the defense lawyer who provides 1 example of "what can happen" if they always drop those. But we know they don't.Care to show us some of the misfires from Vick? Or are they someone else's fault?

Seriously, you are not being objective on this which is not like you. What's going on Big Score? Where's the objectivity?

That's the only one I happened to run across on you tube. The other drops that multiple posters have referred to, you'd have to have seen with your own eyes, but I forget that you haven't watched many of the games, so of course you don't know what we're talking about do you?

 

[Tau837]

I'm watching today's game vs. Pittsburgh.

Vick's first pass: on 2nd & 14, perfect pass 5 yards to wide open Roddy White, who dropped it.

Vick's second pass: on 3rd & 14, well thrown deep ball to White on left sideline, some contact, would have been a difficult catch to make (though it did ultimately hit White in the helmet), White doesn't make the play. This was not a drop, but some receivers would have made that catch. Good example of the "lack of playmaking" I mentioned earlier.

Pittsburgh fumbled on the subsequent punt, with Atlanta recovering.

Vick's third pass: on 1st & 10, perfect pass for a 22 yard TD to Crumpler. Phil Simms calls it a "beautiful throw". EDIT: And Simms follows up with "Michael Vick has always been good at throwing vertically."

Note that before today's game ESPN reported that the Falcons adjusted the offense this week to add more routes that fit Vick's talents, like deep passes, skinny posts, and curls. Results look good early.

 

[nerangers]

Three Passing TDS against the Steelers no less in the first half...think someone was listening to Vick???

 

[Pygmy Marmoset]

It's amazing, with hindsight, how much more some people look like they're making excuses for Michael Vick. I bumped this for that reason. I think it's a pretty exceptional look at what happens to guys like Vick - and how they end up thinking they're above everything and capable of anything they want to do. Excuses and apologies fly from every corner because of his athletic talent. Doesn't watch enough film? Yeah, but look at him play. Isn't completing passes? It's his receivers' fault. Gave the finger to some fans during a game? They were yelling at him.

His coach is terrible.

His offensive coordinator is terrible.

His new receivers are just as bad as the old ones.

The "Ron Mexico" thing was just a ploy to get money.

He's allowed to speak poorly of his teammates on national television. After all, he's Michael Vick.

I can't help but wonder what Michael Vick and his brother would have been like if they'd had one person really hold them accountable in life. Their Dad is a hanger-on trying to get money from them, no doubt Mom had to work 3 jobs while he was growing up, and coaches and peers have always just been mouth-open in awe at their ability. I wonder if all of this could have been avoided if someone, sometime had just told this kid that he wasn't allowed to break the rules and then showed him that he couldn't by punishing him. Bench him. Ground him. Whatever.

 

[Family Matters]

It's amazing, with hindsight, how much more some people look like they're making excuses for Michael Vick. I bumped this for that reason. I think it's a pretty exceptional look at what happens to guys like Vick - and how they end up thinking they're above everything and capable of anything they want to do. Excuses and apologies fly from every corner because of his athletic talent. Doesn't watch enough film? Yeah, but look at him play. Isn't completing passes? It's his receivers' fault. Gave the finger to some fans during a game? They were yelling at him.

His coach is terrible.

His offensive coordinator is terrible.

His new receivers are just as bad as the old ones.

The "Ron Mexico" thing was just a ploy to get money.

He's allowed to speak poorly of his teammates on national television. After all, he's Michael Vick.

I can't help but wonder what Michael Vick and his brother would have been like if they'd had one person really hold them accountable in life. Their Dad is a hanger-on trying to get money from them, no doubt Mom had to work 3 jobs while he was growing up, and coaches and peers have always just been mouth-open in awe at their ability. I wonder if all of this could have been avoided if someone, sometime had just told this kid that he wasn't allowed to break the rules and then showed him that he couldn't by punishing him. Bench him. Ground him. Whatever.

This story repeats itself all the time. Accountability is a great teacher.

 

[Pygmy Marmoset]

It's amazing, with hindsight, how much more some people look like they're making excuses for Michael Vick. I bumped this for that reason. I think it's a pretty exceptional look at what happens to guys like Vick - and how they end up thinking they're above everything and capable of anything they want to do. Excuses and apologies fly from every corner because of his athletic talent. Doesn't watch enough film? Yeah, but look at him play. Isn't completing passes? It's his receivers' fault. Gave the finger to some fans during a game? They were yelling at him.

His coach is terrible.

His offensive coordinator is terrible.

His new receivers are just as bad as the old ones.

The "Ron Mexico" thing was just a ploy to get money.

He's allowed to speak poorly of his teammates on national television. After all, he's Michael Vick.

I can't help but wonder what Michael Vick and his brother would have been like if they'd had one person really hold them accountable in life. Their Dad is a hanger-on trying to get money from them, no doubt Mom had to work 3 jobs while he was growing up, and coaches and peers have always just been mouth-open in awe at their ability. I wonder if all of this could have been avoided if someone, sometime had just told this kid that he wasn't allowed to break the rules and then showed him that he couldn't by punishing him. Bench him. Ground him. Whatever.

This story repeats itself all the time. Accountability is a great teacher.

The crazy thing is, when all is said and done Marcus Vick may end up having the more successful life of the two. He was forced to become accountable in some sense at a young enough age when VT removed him from the team that he may have a chance to really put those ideas into practice in his life. It's probably too late for Michael.