Federal Appeals Court Rules New NC Voting Laws Intended To Discriminate (1 Viewer)

[msommer]

So, whose alias is Megaton?

 

[massraider]

Look, if you guys want to argue that the specific law in NC was a bad law, no one is disagreeing. 

Yeah, yeah they are.  Well, they are doing it by ignorance, by defending a law they are unaware of, or incorrectly assuming it's only about ID.  We aren't 9 pages in because everyone agrees this law is crap.  

Also, what does it say that when it is proven that a group has systematically tried to suppress the votes of minorities, and all people want to talk about is having IDs be mandatory, for a potential problem that may or may not ever manifest itself?  

Having people present a state-issued ID to vote seems reasonable to me.  

Lawmakers urgically trying to suppress minority voters is horrific, and this should be a nationwide outrage.  Says a lot about people in here that the answer is, ''Yeh, that's not right, but man, everyone should have an ID!''

 

[RCon]

No one is disputing that the NC law was a bad law.  Attacking it or even referencing it at this point is beating a dead horse (i.e. straw man).  Why is this complicated?

 

[massraider]

No one is disputing that the NC law was a bad law.  Attacking it or even referencing it at this point is beating a dead horse (i.e. straw man).  Why is this complicated?

Referencing it in the thread regarding it's existence is beating a dead horse.  Is that correct?

 

[CBusAlex]

No one is disputing that the NC law was a bad law.  Attacking it or even referencing it at this point is beating a dead horse (i.e. straw man).  Why is this complicated?

Sorry, we need voter ID to prevent fraud. I hope this gets overturned at the next level.

 

[Megaton]

A dead horse is nothing like a straw man.

What if you stuffed the dead horse with straw and then beat it? 

 

[massraider]

Surprise, Surprise, another Obama appointee trying to legislate from the bench.  The ruling is horse-####, of course.

 

[Megaton]

That's a conundrum.

So like a Trojan? 

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Lets run with that info...

2,600 of them had cast votes from the grave <<< THATS SINCE 1936 in NEW YORK.

80 years.  32.5 a year. A city with 7-8.5 million people per year every year. If 2/3rd are of voting age... that's once every 250,000 people/votes.

Let's say 50% turnout.  So 1 in every 125,000 votes cast.

That's far more likely to be an error in the researchers method, not voter fraud.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

I love how the "vote fraud" folks are ignoring the actual, written evidence that NC specifically set out to keep minority voters from voting, in favor of trying to fluff up minor clerical errors as proof there's a problem that needs solving.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Let's say 50% turnout.  So 1 in every 125,000 votes cast.

That's far more likely to be an error in the researchers method, not voter fraud.

Or a simple mistake. Or a widow/widower intentionally continuing on :sadface:.

 

[Megaton]

Let's say 50% turnout.  So 1 in every 125,000 votes cast.

That's far more likely to be an error in the researchers method, not voter fraud.

Or just horrible analysis by an FBGer.   Are you of the opinion that voter fraud is non-existent?  Or in other words, the political people who lie through their #### in supporting their candidate are above trying to cheat?   Is that the fairytale land you live in? 

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Or just horrible analysis by an FBGer.   Are you of the opinion that voter fraud is non-existent?  Or in other words, the political people who lie through their #### in supporting their candidate are above trying to cheat?   Is that the fairytale land you live in? 

Present the in-depth congressional research that show exacting numbers.  If this is such a travesty, then step-the-####-up on this all important matter.

Simple.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Or just horrible analysis by an FBGer.   Are you of the opinion that voter fraud is non-existent?  Or in other words, the political people who lie through their #### in supporting their candidate are above trying to cheat?   Is that the fairytale land you live in? 

Sorry Mr-too-embarrassed-by-his-argument-to-use-his-own-screen-name, the Trump thread is over there.

Here's some reading from the court's ruling though if you're interested.

“By meticulously targeting measures that were most used by people of color — in addition to imposing a restrictive photo ID requirement — the legislature sought to disturb the levers of power in North Carolina, ensuring only a select few could participate in the democratic process,” 

 

[mr. furley]

Let's say 50% turnout.  So 1 in every 125,000 votes cast.

That's far more likely to be an error in the researchers method, not voter fraud.

1 is 0.0008% of 125,000

to me this constitutes an egregious scandal of historical proportion.

if all 7 billion people in the world were to vote tomorrow, 0.0008% means 56,000 of those votes would be fraudulent. i don't know where you're from but 56,000 is, like, a LOT. Lambeau seats about 80k people. that number of people clogs traffic here for hours. 

ergo, this would cause a horrible traffic jam when i try to pick up groceries on gameday

i'm against that

 

[Megaton]

Present the in-depth congressional research that show exacting numbers.  If this is such a travesty, then step-the-####-up on this all important matter.

Simple.

I provided numerous links to information establishing a problem exists with voter fraud.   Where do you draw the line.   Even the simple act of registering to vote is discriminatory as an MIT study showed that 1.2 million votes were lost in 2012 due to registration issues, mostly poor people.  Why not just eliminate that requirement too.  Whoever shows up is allowed to vote.  Is thatcher system we should have? 

 

[mr. furley]

voter fraud in the US has been thoroughly debunked by every reasonable thinking person who examined the issue

we should not just have a law for it, we should start executing people who think there ISN'T voter fraud.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

No you didnt mega. You provided light weight assumptions with very little meat.

Draw the line?  Do the in-depth research that is required on such a matter. Simple.

 

[CBusAlex]

If voter fraud is really a widespread issue that threatens the very foundation of our democracy, isn't it horribly irresponsible of the GOP to ignore all the sensible, non-discriminatory voter ID laws you guys have been coming up with in these threads for the last eight years, and instead continue to repeatedly put forward laws that get thrown out for placing an undue burden targeted at minority voters? How do you put up with that?

 

[Megaton]

No you didnt mega. You provided light weight assumptions with very little meat.

Draw the line?  Do the in-depth research that is required on such a matter. Simple.

I provided links which established thousands of people voted twice in Florida alone.  There were at least 46,000 voters registered in both Florida and New York, around 1,000 voted in both states. There were also over 68,000 more people registered in Florida and North Carolinia/Georgia.   Over 1600 of them voted in multiple states in 2000/2002.  Those two examples alone illustrate a problem of election altering proportions.   People can do the same thing in towns which they have moved and are registered in several locations.  I imagine my name is registered in at least four districts in my town as much as I have moved around. 

 

[BigSteelThrill]

I provided links which established thousands of people voted twice in Florida alone.  There were at least 46,000 voters registered in both Florida and New York, around 1,000 voted in both states. There were also over 68,000 more people registered in Florida and North Carolinia/Georgia.   Over 1600 of them voted in multiple states in 2000/2002.  Those two examples alone illustrate a problem of election altering proportions.   People can do the same thing in towns which they have moved and are registered in several locations.  I imagine my name is registered in at least four districts in my town as much as I have moved around. 

Yes, its very likely the elderly in those two states. Its been shown time-and-time again that people make mistakes in voting -- especially the elderly. As opposed to fraud.

Have the congress give it a full investigation (Im all for it) and we can proceed.

 

[parasaurolophus]

Surprise, Surprise, another Obama appointee trying to legislate from the bench.  The ruling is horse-####, of course.

to be fair wasnt this post about the wisconsin ruling?

 

[The Commish]

If voter fraud is really a widespread issue that threatens the very foundation of our democracy, isn't it horribly irresponsible of the GOP to ignore all the sensible, non-discriminatory voter ID laws you guys have been coming up with in these threads for the last eight years, and instead continue to repeatedly put forward laws that get thrown out for placing an undue burden targeted at minority voters? How do you put up with that?

This is a pretty good question and along those lines on the other side, it's tough to take seriously all the  around voter suppression in a general election when those doing the  remain virtually silent with respect to the practices used during the primaries.

 

[Megaton]

Yes, its very likely the elderly in those two states. Its been shown time-and-time again that people make mistakes in voting -- especially the elderly. As opposed to fraud.

Have the congress give it a full investigation (Im all for it) and we can proceed.

Voting twice takes effort.   It is not a mistake.  Of course when caught, the shark move is to act dumb.  

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Voting twice takes effort.   It is not a mistake.  Of course when caught, the shark move is to ask dumb.  

So an in-depth federal investigation, at the highest level, should be in order?

 

[parasaurolophus]

Yes, its very likely the elderly in those two states. Its been shown time-and-time again that people make mistakes in voting -- especially the elderly. As opposed to fraud.

Have the congress give it a full investigation (Im all for it) and we can proceed.

What mistakes do they make? 

And you wonder why the heartfelt claims that dear old granny might not be able to get an ID fall on deaf ears.

If you vote twice by mistake, I don't care if you are removed from the voting pool. These are the same idiots that believe everything in political ads.  

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Like those who have moved from NY to Florida, for starters.

I dont see a time frame listed on that article (its doesnt even qualify as a report in any way).

Computer records analyzed by The News don't allow for an exact count of how many people vote in both places, because millions of names are regularly purged between elections. But The News found that between 400 and 1,000 registered voters have voted twice in at least one election, a federal offense punishable by up to five years in prison and a $10,000 fine.

 

[pantagrapher]

Texas reaches deal to weaken voter ID law for November election, spend $2.5M on voter outreach.

 

[mr. furley]

What mistakes do they make? 

And you wonder why the heartfelt claims that dear old granny might not be able to get an ID fall on deaf ears.

If you vote twice by mistake, I don't care if you are removed from the voting pool. These are the same idiots that believe everything in political ads.  

odds are pretty damned high that the fault lies at least partly with poll workers and not entirely with the voters.

where i vote, none of the poll workers is younger than 80.  

we use pencils, without erasers, to fill in boxes.  i'd guess of voters who "purposefully vote twice" many of them are checking the wrong box on the scantron, then trying to scratch it out and fill in a different box. those ballots should be discarded, or common sense exercised, but that isn't going to happen. 

these cries of widespread intentional fraud over common human error are .... ludicrous... in the US system.

the same people that believe the US electoral system is being cheated by illegal immigrants, felons, dead people, etc. are the ones that believe we never landed on the moon. that Elvis is alive. and that Reagan is still President.

 

[tdoss]

It's a weird perspective to have when you see delegates carve up districts to create political rorschach tests and leaks showing shady dealings for candidacy races...but having them engage in voter fraud is like some sort of honor among thieves that none will sully.

Just make ID's available to all, create a national holiday for election day and be done with it.

Let's move on to the next issue.

 

[RCon]

If voter fraud is really a widespread issue that threatens the very foundation of our democracy, isn't it horribly irresponsible of the GOP to ignore all the sensible, non-discriminatory voter ID laws you guys have been coming up with in these threads for the last eight years, and instead continue to repeatedly put forward laws that get thrown out for placing an undue burden targeted at minority voters? How do you put up with that?

Yes.  I don't; I vote third-party.

 

[njherdfan]

I don't really see the point of pre-registration. Eighteen is a time when a lot of people move.  Just register in your locale when you are 18.  

Do a lot of minorities pre-register?  I'm not seeing the connection there.

I would assume there are a lot of poor students (who are probably disproportionately minority) who might not have access to transportation once they turn 18, but do have access to school buses. I have no idea how widespread (or not) that is, but I don't see a negative to allowing pre-registration, and the only potential "gain" that I can see is fewer registered voters.

 

[parasaurolophus]

odds are pretty damned high that the fault lies at least partly with poll workers and not entirely with the voters.

where i vote, none of the poll workers is younger than 80.  

we use pencils, without erasers, to fill in boxes.  i'd guess of voters who "purposefully vote twice" many of them are checking the wrong box on the scantron, then trying to scratch it out and fill in a different box. those ballots should be discarded, or common sense exercised, but that isn't going to happen. 

these cries of widespread intentional fraud over common human error are .... ludicrous... in the US system.

the same people that believe the US electoral system is being cheated by illegal immigrants, felons, dead people, etc. are the ones that believe we never landed on the moon. that Elvis is alive. and that Reagan is still President.

I dont think anybody in this thread is crying widespread voter fraud. What they are saying is it happens. They are also saying that having an ID is something that beneficial members of society already have or have the means to get. 

 

[jonessed]

I would assume there are a lot of poor students (who are probably disproportionately minority) who might not have access to transportation once they turn 18, but do have access to school buses. I have no idea how widespread (or not) that is, but I don't see a negative to allowing pre-registration, and the only potential "gain" that I can see is fewer registered voters.

School buses go to polling stations?  That seems odd.

 

[MaxThreshold]

School buses go to polling stations?  That seems odd.

How else do you think the Democrats transport their voters from voting precinct to voting precinct?   You can't cast multiple votes if you're walking from place to place.

 

[massraider]

It's a weird perspective to have when you see delegates carve up districts to create political rorschach tests and leaks showing shady dealings for candidacy races...but having them engage in voter fraud is like some sort of honor among thieves that none will sully.

Just make ID's available to all, create a national holiday for election day and be done with it.

Let's move on to the next issue.

Couldn't agree more.

This law,  of course, had a lot more than just ID regulations in it.

 

[Megaton]

It also has happened, on multiple occasions, that white men have assassinated US Presidents. Even more instances where they shot at them and failed. The fact that it has happened isn't sufficient reason to burden every white man's gun right.

Just pressure states to drop this naked attempt at stealing elections and then we can all move on.

So you oppose the secret service and doing something to protect the president?  Your analogy kind of sucks.  Yes we need to take steps to protect the president and we need to take steps to protect the integrity of elections.  Voter registration along with ID's done in a way which is easy and free should be done.  The answer is not to do nothing.  

 

[parasaurolophus]

It also has happened, on multiple occasions, that white men have assassinated US Presidents. Even more instances where they shot at them and failed. The fact that it has happened isn't sufficient reason to burden every white man's gun right.

Just pressure states to drop this naked attempt at stealing elections and then we can all move on.

That analogy is so spot on you have changed my mind. I mean it is comparable in every single way. Great work buddy. Changing minds daily here.  

I will call Scott Walker today. 

 

[massraider]

So you oppose the secret service and doing something to protect the president?  Your analogy kind of sucks.  Yes we need to take steps to protect the president and we need to take steps to protect the integrity of elections.  Voter registration along with ID's done in a way which is easy and free should be done.  The answer is not to do nothing.  

If the only other option is voter suppression, masked as an attempt to prevent voter fraud, then the answer is: do nothing.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Just make ID's available to all, create a national holiday for election day and be done with it.

If any of this were about voter fraud something like this would be a great solution.

It'll never happen though, because the threat of fraud has nothing to do with these policies.

 

[massraider]

Yep, let's all think about what policies we can enact, to prevent a problem that hasn't materialized, and ignore racist voter suppression actually happening. 

 

[Megaton]

If the only other option is voter suppression, masked as an attempt to prevent voter fraud, then the answer is: do nothing.

How is that the only other option?  Seems kind of a ridiculous strawman.  

 

[Megaton]

If any of this were about voter fraud something like this would be a great solution.

It'll never happen though, because the threat of fraud has nothing to do with these policies.

So you wish to cast the motivations of a few as the motivations for all.  A typical partisan tactic which is used to prevent something logical from getting done.  

 

[massraider]

How is that the only other option?  Seems kind of a ridiculous strawman.  

A straw man?

My man, I'm describing what is actually happening right now, not making up a straw man.

Should that be the only option? No. And a law where you need to show an ID sounds very reasonable.

But if the only voter ID laws we get are thinly disguised voter suppression laws, passed by inbred hicks that don't like the changing demographics of their state, then #### those racist hillbillies, and I don't want new law.

I would rather not have a law, and hope that voter fraud doesn't occur, than pass a racist law, and KNOW that it is.

This seems pretty logical to me. 

 

[Megaton]

A straw man?

My man, I'm describing what is actually happening right now, not making up a straw man.

Should that be the only option? No. And a law where you need to show an ID sounds very reasonable.

But if the only voter ID laws we get are thinly disguised voter suppression laws, passed by inbred hicks that don't like the changing demographics of their state, then #### those racist hillbillies, and I don't want new law.

I would rather not have a law, and hope that voter fraud doesn't occur, than pass a racist law, and KNOW that it is.

This seems pretty logical to me. 

Casting it as the only option is the strawman part.  HTH.  Also your rhetoric is pathetic and does not cast you in any better light than the people you rant about.  

 

[Insein]

I don't know how it is in other parts of the country, but the states I have voted in Texas, Oklahoma, Indiana, Maryland, and Florida either didn't ask for my ID, or if they did it was a little old lady who didn't give two ####s about it.  Would be very easy for any person to borrow another person's ID to vote.  Now recently in Oklahoma they ask for your address, and they mark you off in a book to show you have already voted.  This would work without an ID in a small state like Oklahoma, but I don't see how in the world they keep up with this issue in a large populated area.   

If people were serious about this issue we would go to a standardized voting system that can be taught in high school, so that we don't have 1500 different ways to vote in different states, counties, and cities.  We could use a fingerprint machine or some other high tech mechanism.  But, it shouldn't cost the tax payer to vote.  

Well that's discriminating against people that don't stay in high school!

 

[Mario Kart]

So you wish to cast the motivations of a few as the motivations for all.  A typical partisan tactic which is used to prevent something logical from getting done.  

Aren't you doing this exact thing with the suppressive laws though? You're taking a few instances that are legitmate and turning that into creating a problem for all. If your goal, or the goal, was to prevent voter fraud, than there should be attempts to make voting for all easier instead of making it more difficult. You have to recognize that most of these laws keep people from voting than it does preventing voter fraud, no?

 

[massraider]

Casting it as the only option is the strawman part.  HTH.  Also your rhetoric is pathetic and does not cast you in any better light then the people you rant about.  

So you don't want to discuss the actual problem here, and have resorted to vague insults. 

Copy that.  

43 posts, and we know what you are.  

 

[Megaton]

Aren't you doing this exact thing with the suppressive laws though? You're taking a few instances that are legitmate and turning that into creating a problem for all. If your goal, or the goal, was to prevent voter fraud, than there should be attempts to make voting for all easier instead of making it more difficult. You have to recognize that most of these laws keep people from voting than it does preventing voter fraud, no?

How do you equate prevent voter fruad with making voting easier?  Obviously any law which attempts to prevent fraud will add some additional process.  The logical debate would be what is the appropriate balance that both ensures that legal citizens are voting only once and at their proper location and making voting accessible for everyone.  If your position is that any barrier is too much, that seems kind of an unreasonable stance to me.  Do you have a suggestion on how to ensure there is a reasonable level of integrity in voting? 

 

[Megaton]

Those don't burden constitutional rights.

More like to like would be, "We need some common sense reforms. Every gun sold will have a mandatory, cannot be removed GPS chip. No beneficial member of society other than military, security, and law enforcement need to be bringing a firearm near the President, a bank, a school, or an airport. Every gun owner will be required to annually renew their permit by going to a state run center and undergoing a vision and psychological evaluation. We need to be certain that the people carrying guns are fit to do so. And going in for a 20-minute appointment isn't a big deal. There may only be 4 or 5 of these per state but that's fine. Lastly when people come into their appointment they will bring in proof of identity, original birth certificate, and original social security card. Because we don't need to be providing guns to non-citizens. Everybody agrees that violence does happen. And these are simple common sense reforms that no beneficial member of society would have a problem with."

That would be a more equitable analogy.  But still, the burdens you are laid out for gun rights are far greater vs. the what should be the simple burden of having an id to vote.  In both cases, some burden to the constitutional rights are merited to ensure either safety or fair elections.  What we need to get past is all the rhetoric which gets in the way of an intelligent discussion.