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Fidel Castro dead at 90 (1 Viewer)

There will be celebrations in Miami for days. But it doesn't change the government in Cuba, as Raul's been in charge for several years. Who does Obama send for the funeral?

 
SoBeDad said:
There will be celebrations in Miami for days. But it doesn't change the government in Cuba, as Raul's been in charge for several years. Who does Obama send for the funeral?
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Right.  I expect to hear a lot of "the end of an era" talk, but his death probably doesn't change anything.

 
A sad passing in my book. 

Fidel and the Cuban Revolution is something I have studied extensively in my life.  As an intellectual and military leader, he is certainly one of the most important characters in the 20th century.   There is a lot of blame to go around about where Cuba is today (on Fidel, Che, the USSR, and us), but it is important to remember where it was when the revolution happened.

Please don't quote this if you're parroting some political BS or trying to discuss politics with me.

 
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Slapdash said:
A sad passing in my book. 

Fidel and the Cuban Revolution is something I have studied extensively in my life.  As an intellectual and military leader, he is certainly one of the most important characters in the 20th century.   There is a lot of blame to go around about where Cuba is today (on Fidel, Che, the USSR, and us), but it is important to remember where it was when the revolution happened.

Please don't quote this if you're expecting some political BS
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The revolution had some successes in healthcare and education, but was a complete failure from an economic POV, almost from the beginning. You can't blame the embargo for over 50 years of rationing. Even sugar was imported in some years.

 
Judge Smails said:
I had a bunch of Cuban friends in school in the 70's.  Talked with some of their parents.  Man - Fidel was hated...
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Che and others killed many opposition leaders in the beginning and jailed others for many years. The numbers of those killed may be exaggerated by Cubans in Miami, but Castro was brutal. Otherwise, he might not have survived. He also set up spies everywhere - committes for defense of the Revolution on every block. Many believed in the promise of Communism for years, as Fidel was great at propaganda. 

 
One of the most wretched fortunes of history is the gap between freedom fighters' ability to lead a revolution and run a country. Hero, villain, RIP

 
SoBeDad said:
The revolution had some successes in healthcare and education, but was a complete failure from an economic POV, almost from the beginning. You can't blame the embargo for over 50 years of rationing. Even sugar was imported in some years.
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Cool, feel free to link to me blaming solely the embargo then. Very quick with your strawman.

This is the FFA where dancing on the grave of your political enemies is BAU.  However, I did ask nicely that people not use my post to do it

 
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Slapdash said:
A sad passing in my book. 

Fidel and the Cuban Revolution is something I have studied extensively in my life.  As an intellectual and military leader, he is certainly one of the most important characters in the 20th century.   There is a lot of blame to go around about where Cuba is today (on Fidel, Che, the USSR, and us), but it is important to remember where it was when the revolution happened.

Please don't quote this if you're parroting some political BS or trying to discuss politics with me.
Click to expand...
In other words, don't dare reply if you disagree in any way with this guy's bull####.

 
SoBeDad said:
Che and others killed many opposition leaders in the beginning and jailed others for many years. The numbers of those killed may be exaggerated by Cubans in Miami, but Castro was brutal. Otherwise, he might not have survived. He also set up spies everywhere - committes for defense of the Revolution on every block. Many believed in the promise of Communism for years, as Fidel was great at propaganda. 
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Batista (and the previous regimes) were pretty brutal too.

I believe that there is no country in the world including any and all the countries under colonial domination, where economic colonization, humiliation and exploitation were worse than in Cuba, in part owing to my country's policies during the Batista regime. I approved the proclamation which Fidel Castro made in the Sierra Maestra, when he justifiably called for justice and especially yearned to rid Cuba of corruption. I will even go further: to some extent it is as though Batista was the incarnation of a number of sins on the part of the United States. Now we shall have to pay for those sins. In the matter of the Batista regime, I am in agreement with the first Cuban revolutionaries. That is perfectly clear.

— U.S. President John F. Kennedy, to Jean Daniel, October 24, 1963
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From wiki

 
Slapdash said:
Coolexpert free to link to me blamiitg solely the embargo then. Very quick with your strawman.

This is the FFA where dancing on the grave of your political enemies is BAU.  However, I did ask nicely that people not use my post to do it
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Since youre the self proclaimed expert, why not share your knowledge? I knowvery little about the place and/or stoey and would appreciate It.

Only bit I know, anecdotally, was a friend who went to study and record some music there about 15years ago (street crews and band battles) For a month or so. He described a lot of fear and paranoia with the concern over Gov spies Being "everywhere"- not his opinion, the opinion Of the people he met.

 
msommer said:
Batista (and the previous regimes) were pretty brutal too.

From wiki
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They weren't nearly as brutal, but they were much better in creating livable conditions.

Cuba was the richest nation in the Caribbean under Batista. Now they are the poorest and have been for several decades.

The per capita GDP in Cuba is ~$6700. In Puerto Rico it's $34,000.

 
Slapdash said:
A sad passing in my book. 

Fidel and the Cuban Revolution is something I have studied extensively in my life.  As an intellectual and military leader, he is certainly one of the most important characters in the 20th century.   There is a lot of blame to go around about where Cuba is today (on Fidel, Che, the USSR, and us), but it is important to remember where it was when the revolution happened.

Please don't quote this if you're parroting some political BS or trying to discuss politics with me.
Click to expand...
I blame the Yankees.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
They weren't nearly as brutal, but they were much better in creating livable conditions.

Cuba was the richest nation in the Caribbean under Batista. Now they are the poorest and have been for several decades.

The per capita GDP in Cuba is ~$6700. In Puerto Rico it's $34,000.
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Have you ever been to Cuba?

 
msommer said:
And Saint, I'm not a fan of the Cuban regime, but as with anything, there are more facets to the story
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Hey I realize that, Batista was an SOB and absolutely brutal. Castro up to '59 is definitely palatable and in some ways he merely built off of what Batista had started.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Probably as many as 10-20K, he may have even been creating a police state, but Castro was Batista turned to 11.
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So 10-20K over a 7 year period (he was a lot less moderate after his coup in '52) vs vs 141k over 58 years. 

Merely pointing out that the Cuba Batista created during his second at bat was not exactly the birth of civil rights and democracy.

 
Slapdash said:
A sad passing in my book. 

Fidel and the Cuban Revolution is something I have studied extensively in my life.  As an intellectual and military leader, he is certainly one of the most important characters in the 20th century.   There is a lot of blame to go around about where Cuba is today (on Fidel, Che, the USSR, and us), but it is important to remember where it was when the revolution happened.

Please don't quote this if you're parroting some political BS or trying to discuss politics with me.
Click to expand...
Actually, I would think it is a fascinating topic to discuss. Unfortunately, there's a lot of emotion and politics tied to Cuba.

I would be interested to hear you discuss this in some depth. 

 
msommer said:
So 10-20K over a 7 year period (he was a lot less moderate after his coup in '52) vs vs 141k over 58 years. 

Merely pointing out that the Cuba Batista created during his second at bat was not exactly the birth of civil rights and democracy.
Click to expand...
Agree. It was the opposite. It was a kleptocracy.

 
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SaintsInDome2006 said:
Hey I realize that, Batista was an SOB and absolutely brutal. Castro up to '59 is definitely palatable and in some ways he merely built off of what Batista had started.
Click to expand...
I had the opportunity to go to Cuba in '98 for three weeks of vacation. Havana, Santa Clara, Trinidad. It as obvious then that the fall of the Soviet Union had put Cuba in dire straits.

We drove from Santa Clara to Trinidad in an old Lada. The driver was a former chemical engineer in his fifties (trained in Bratislava) who for health issues had to change his line of work. The Lada was a gift from the state for something or other (I think he had beaten some production records or some such, my Spanish was even worse in those days than now), so he was making a living driving tourists around.

He was a very passionate communist, to the point where he would not utter the words "the United States" (in Spanish obviously), but refered to the US as "el inimigo". Fabulous character, beautiful, beautiful drive through the countryside. Nice guy, a little off on his politics, but that's neither here nor there.

I learned a lot about Cuba from talking to him, and many, many of the other people we happened to strike up conversations with, from all walks of life. 

The interesting thing is whether Raul Castro will open more now or if he will leave that to the next generaton of leaders, and obviously, how smooth the transition of power goes when the time comes for Raul to step down.

 
msommer said:
I had the opportunity to go to Cuba in '98 for three weeks of vacation. Havana, Santa Clara, Trinidad. It as obvious then that the fall of the Soviet Union had put Cuba in dire straits.

We drove from Santa Clara to Trinidad in an old Lada. The driver was a former chemical engineer in his fifties (trained in Bratislava) who for health issues had to change his line of work. The Lada was a gift from the state for something or other (I think he had beaten some production records or some such, my Spanish was even worse in those days than now), so he was making a living driving tourists around.

He was a very passionate communist, to the point where he would not utter the words "the United States" (in Spanish obviously), but refered to the US as "el inimigo". Fabulous character, beautiful, beautiful drive through the countryside. Nice guy, a little off on his politics, but that's neither here nor there.

I learned a lot about Cuba from talking to him, and many, many of the other people we happened to strike up conversations with, from all walks of life. 

The interesting thing is whether Raul Castro will open more now or if he will leave that to the next generaton of leaders, and obviously, how smooth the transition of power goes when the time comes for Raul to step down.
Click to expand...
My grandfather lived in Cuba as a young man before coming to the US. My mother's family used to go there every 1-2 years pre-Castro, never since. And NO has a decent sized Cuban population and I have had some conversations on Castro. Restoring serious trade would be a boon to NO for sure, so I am for it, but the evidence of the damage the Castros have done is piled high.

 
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