Florida boy killed by Neighborhood Watch (1 Viewer)

[the moops]

Zimmerman confronted Martin...

Is there an eyewitness to this? I have not heard any nor is there any reference in the report to one. The investigators seem to be assuming that is the way it went down. It is a piss poor report.

Do you read prosecution affidavits for a living? I

I'would hope it takes more than this to throw someone in prison and charge them with murder. .

I would hope it would take more than simply saying you were getting beat up in order to get away with shooting someone.

 

[identikit]

Charging affidavit

Affidavit

Wasn't impressed with the investigators before this and this made my impression of them much worse.. A lot of inuendo and outright mind reading in the editorialized story-telling. If anything this shows an undeniable bias against Zimmerman from the police department that is suppose to drowning in institutionalized racism against blacks.

Which parts were innuendo and mind-reading?

The mind reading parts were the parts where they said Zimmerman was profiling Martin and that Zimmerman falsely assumed Martin was a criminal and the part that said Martin just wanted to get home. The innuendo was the part where he said Zimmerman confronted Martin. He offered no proof of how he came up with that conclusion.

I don't think they're required to show proof of any of it- yet.

They are investigators. If they had witnesses who could back this up, they should have said so. If I was a judge, i would throw this case out.

In your long experience in reading prosecution affidavits, do they usually describe the nature of the specific evidence that backs up their charge in the affidavit?

If they want the DA to press charges they should. Based on this, I would not press charges.

You're out of your element, Jonnie.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

The entire confrontation lays squarely upon Zimmerman.

You know what BST? I'm on "your side" here (I think Zimmerman did wrong and I'd like to see him convicted), but this is an awfully weak argument it seems to me. Just for a second, suppose that Zimmerman behaved like a total jerk, followed Martin around, confronted him, made accusations against him, whatever. If at any time during that confrontation Martin took an action which Zimmerman could reasonably consider life threatening, then the law says Zimmerman had the right to do what he did. The fact that the confrontation was made possible by Zimmerman being a jerk doesn't make him guilty of 2nd degree murder.

Sure. You put someone into a position of being threatened... then when they defend themselves react to the position you have put them into (under the threatened pretense)... you now feel threatened and shoot them dead. Works for me.

 

[jon_mx]

Zimmerman confronted Martin...

Is there an eyewitness to this? I have not heard any nor is there any reference in the report to one. The investigators seem to be assuming that is the way it went down. It is a piss poor report.

Do you read prosecution affidavits for a living?I

I'would hope it takes more than this to throw someone in prison and charge them with murder. .

Read the last paragraph in the affidavit.

So we should take the officer's word that there is mo better evidence he is not disclosing? You want charges, you better tell me why you believe it. This report is pathetic.

 

[Fennis]

Zimmerman confronted Martin...

Is there an eyewitness to this? I have not heard any nor is there any reference in the report to one. The investigators seem to be assuming that is the way it went down. It is a piss poor report.

Do you read prosecution affidavits for a living?I

I'would hope it takes more than this to throw someone in prison and charge them with murder. .

Read the last paragraph in the affidavit.

So we should take the officer's word that there is mo better evidence he is not disclosing? You want charges, you better tell me why you believe it. This report is pathetic.

apparently thats not the case.

 

[timschochet]

When the police dispatcher realized Zimmerman was pursuing Martin, he instructed Zimmerman not to do that and that the responding officer would meet him. Zimmerman disregarded the police dispatcher...

I find this to be an interesting two sentences. One of the big debates in this thread has been whether or not Zimmerman was ever "instructed" by the dispatcher. According to this interpretation, he was.

 

[jon_mx]

Zimmerman confronted Martin...

Is there an eyewitness to this? I have not heard any nor is there any reference in the report to one. The investigators seem to be assuming that is the way it went down. It is a piss poor report.

Do you read prosecution affidavits for a living? I

I'would hope it takes more than this to throw someone in prison and charge them with murder. .

I would hope it would take more than simply saying you were getting beat up in order to get away with shooting someone.

Well here in the US, the presumption of innocence is with the defendant. I thought you smart guys knew that by now.

 

[identikit]

Zimmerman confronted Martin...

Is there an eyewitness to this? I have not heard any nor is there any reference in the report to one. The investigators seem to be assuming that is the way it went down. It is a piss poor report.

Do you read prosecution affidavits for a living?I

I'would hope it takes more than this to throw someone in prison and charge them with murder. .

Read the last paragraph in the affidavit.

So we should take the officer's word that there is mo better evidence he is not disclosing? You want charges, you better tell me why you believe it. This report is pathetic.

That's what a trial is for.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

Zimmerman confronted Martin...

Is there an eyewitness to this? I have not heard any nor is there any reference in the report to one. The investigators seem to be assuming that is the way it went down. It is a piss poor report.

Do you read prosecution affidavits for a living?I

I'would hope it takes more than this to throw someone in prison and charge them with murder. .

Read the last paragraph in the affidavit.

So we should take the officer's word that there is mo better evidence he is not disclosing? You want charges, you better tell me why you believe it. This report is pathetic.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

I live in Alabama. Everyone has a gun here too.Zimmerman was not protecting his family from anything.You mentioned property in addition to family meaning you would shoot someone for stealing, correct?Do you believe that Zimmerman would have left his car and followed Martin had he not been carrying? We'll never know, and you can easily say yes.But in order to believe that the gun did not escalate the situation, you have to believe that he would have followed without a gun, and that Trayvon would have killed him had Zimmerman not killed him first. Put together that's a major stretch.Also, if you can't respond with blatant twisting of words ("dumbest things I have ever heard" in reference to more guns being the appropriate reaction to this incident became "defending your family is one of the dumbest things you can do") then let's save ourselves the trouble and just end this right here.

There's probably a good chance Zimmerman would have tried to keep a visual on Martin whether he had a gun or not. He was trying to protect his neighborhood, not trying to flex his license to carry muscles. He was truly concerned. That's obvious based on all the other stories. And I believe the criteria for self defense is that You believe you life is in danger, or there is a threat of serious bodily harm.

 

[timschochet]

The entire confrontation lays squarely upon Zimmerman.

You know what BST? I'm on "your side" here (I think Zimmerman did wrong and I'd like to see him convicted), but this is an awfully weak argument it seems to me. Just for a second, suppose that Zimmerman behaved like a total jerk, followed Martin around, confronted him, made accusations against him, whatever. If at any time during that confrontation Martin took an action which Zimmerman could reasonably consider life threatening, then the law says Zimmerman had the right to do what he did. The fact that the confrontation was made possible by Zimmerman being a jerk doesn't make him guilty of 2nd degree murder.

Sure. You put someone into a position of being threatened... then when they defend themselves react to the position you have put them into (under the threatened pretense)... you now feel threatened and shoot them dead. Works for me.

The question is does it work for the State of Florida? Unfortunately it might.And yeah, I could actually see a scenario where that would be the case. Let's suppose you and I got into a fight. I started it, because I'm drunk and I don't like you and I think I'm gonna kick your ###. But instead of me kicking your ###, you start kicking my ###. Well that's fine, teach me a lesson. But then, after I'm already whipped, you don't stop. You keep going, pounding my head into the ground and I start thinking "JFC, this guy isn't just beating me up anymore, he wants to kill me. He actually wants to kill me!" So I take my gun out and shoot you dead. Now just because I started the fight in the first place doesn't mean I can't legitimately claim self-defense in that scenario.

 

[Fennis]

Zimmerman confronted Martin...

Is there an eyewitness to this? I have not heard any nor is there any reference in the report to one. The investigators seem to be assuming that is the way it went down. It is a piss poor report.

Do you read prosecution affidavits for a living? I

I'would hope it takes more than this to throw someone in prison and charge them with murder. .

I would hope it would take more than simply saying you were getting beat up in order to get away with shooting someone.

Well here in the US, the presumption of innocence is with the defendant. I thought you smart guys knew that by now.

The prosecution is not required to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt in that affidavit. The document is called an Affidavit of Probable Cause.

 

[jon_mx]

Zimmerman confronted Martin...

Is there an eyewitness to this? I have not heard any nor is there any reference in the report to one. The investigators seem to be assuming that is the way it went down. It is a piss poor report.

Do you read prosecution affidavits for a living?I

I'would hope it takes more than this to throw someone in prison and charge them with murder. .

Read the last paragraph in the affidavit.

So we should take the officer's word that there is mo better evidence he is not disclosing? You want charges, you better tell me why you believe it. This report is pathetic.

That's what a trial is for.

No, it takes more in this country to throw someone in jail besides the opinion of an investigator that he believes that he did it. This is pathetic. If I was black I would be upset with this kind of justice system. Some white cop doesn't like me and have me thrown in prison. Is that how you want our justice system to work? I can't believe how people can defend this crap.

 

[Fennis]

Zimmerman confronted Martin...

Is there an eyewitness to this? I have not heard any nor is there any reference in the report to one. The investigators seem to be assuming that is the way it went down. It is a piss poor report.

Do you read prosecution affidavits for a living?I

I'would hope it takes more than this to throw someone in prison and charge them with murder. .

Read the last paragraph in the affidavit.

So we should take the officer's word that there is mo better evidence he is not disclosing? You want charges, you better tell me why you believe it. This report is pathetic.

That's what a trial is for.

No, it takes more in this country to throw someone in jail besides the opinion of an investigator that he believes that he did it. This is pathetic. If I was black I would be upset with this kind of justice system. Some white cop doesn't like me and have me thrown in prison. Is that how you want our justice system to work? I can't believe how people can defend this crap.

they need probable cause. this isnt anything new.

 

[jon_mx]

Zimmerman confronted Martin...

Is there an eyewitness to this? I have not heard any nor is there any reference in the report to one. The investigators seem to be assuming that is the way it went down. It is a piss poor report.

Do you read prosecution affidavits for a living? I

I'would hope it takes more than this to throw someone in prison and charge them with murder. .

I would hope it would take more than simply saying you were getting beat up in order to get away with shooting someone.

Well here in the US, the presumption of innocence is with the defendant. I thought you smart guys knew that by now.

The prosecution is not required to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt in that affidavit. The document is called an Affidavit of Probable Cause.

Probably Cause requires some evidence not just a gut feeling.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

I started it,

Considering I was actively trying to avoid you... you got no reasonable* leg to stand on.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Good question on SC. I have no idea. I also have no idea how anyone can advance a claim of self-defense when his victims are hiding from him. I realize that Zimmerman was in legal possession and that is not part of this case. What I am asking (and this is not a legal question Christo) is can you look at this situation and honestly say that had Zimmerman not been in possession of a gun, that he would be dead right now instead of Trayvon. It's a total hypothetical, so you can answer however you want and not be wrong. Maybe Zimmerman was enough of a wannabe hero he would have followed Trayvon without it. Maybe Trayvon was so unhinged he would have beaten Zimmerman to death just for following him. But I find it much more likely that it was the fact that Zimmerman was carrying which gave him the bravado to follow Martin, and I also find it unlikely that Trayvon was so enraged by someone following him he would have beaten or suffocated his follower to death.Had a gun not been present, then it's likely that Zimmerman would be alive, and Trayvon would be in jail for battery. JMO.

Hiding from him, interesting.. Here I was thinking Trayvon was actually the first one to make contact.. At least that is what his girlfriend says.. The second hand story (the leak) we hear about the encounter seems to corroborate the initial contact being made by Trayvon as well.. Where do you find this "Hiding" information?

 

[Fennis]

Zimmerman confronted Martin...

Is there an eyewitness to this? I have not heard any nor is there any reference in the report to one. The investigators seem to be assuming that is the way it went down. It is a piss poor report.

Do you read prosecution affidavits for a living? I

I'would hope it takes more than this to throw someone in prison and charge them with murder. .

I would hope it would take more than simply saying you were getting beat up in order to get away with shooting someone.

Well here in the US, the presumption of innocence is with the defendant. I thought you smart guys knew that by now.

The prosecution is not required to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt in that affidavit. The document is called an Affidavit of Probable Cause.

Probably Cause requires some evidence not just a gut feeling.

they have probable cause. thats why Zimmerman was charged.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

If you don't want to be tried for murder, don't shoot people.

This might be one of the more simplistic and idiotic posts in this thread.

ORLY?

Pretty much...

 

[jon_mx]

Zimmerman confronted Martin...

Is there an eyewitness to this? I have not heard any nor is there any reference in the report to one. The investigators seem to be assuming that is the way it went down. It is a piss poor report.

Do you read prosecution affidavits for a living? I

I'would hope it takes more than this to throw someone in prison and charge them with murder. .

I would hope it would take more than simply saying you were getting beat up in order to get away with shooting someone.

Well here in the US, the presumption of innocence is with the defendant. I thought you smart guys knew that by now.

The prosecution is not required to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt in that affidavit. The document is called an Affidavit of Probable Cause.

Probably Cause means just that, that they show it is probably true. I would call the standard met here a wild-### guess.

 

[Guest]

This is pathetic. If I was black I would be upset with this kind of justice system. Some white cop doesn't like me and have me thrown in prison. Is that how you want our justice system to work? I can't believe how people can defend this crap.

And on 4/12/12 at 7:13pm, jon_mx became a bleeding-heart liberal.

 

[Fennis]

This is pathetic. If I was black I would be upset with this kind of justice system. Some white cop doesn't like me and have me thrown in prison. Is that how you want our justice system to work? I can't believe how people can defend this crap.

And on 4/12/02 at 7:13pm, jon_mx became a bleeding-heart liberal.

 

[Chairshot]

Probably Cause requires some evidence not just a gut feeling.

I'm an amateur here but isn't the fact that Zimmerman as admitted to shooting Martin all the evidence they need?The whole thing just comes down to whether or not he had the right to shoot him or not, right?

 

[jon_mx]

This is pathetic. If I was black I would be upset with this kind of justice system. Some white cop doesn't like me and have me thrown in prison. Is that how you want our justice system to work? I can't believe how people can defend this crap.

And on 4/12/12 at 7:13pm, jon_mx became a bleeding-heart liberal.

I am pretty sure I am just defending the original intent of the Constitution and blind justice that is suppose to occur like any red-blooded conservative would do.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Sure. You put someone into a position of being threatened... then when they defend themselves react to the position you have put them into (under the threatened pretense)... you now feel threatened and shoot them dead. Works for me.

This. Guy tails me for no reason while I'm wandering up the street talking on the phone, then drives around the block and comes running up the sidewalk to catch me after I've already given him the slip and I'm gonna feel pretty threatened. So scared for my life I might feel the need to stand my ground or something.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Whatever he may be, Zimmerman is no martyr. If you're stalking someone with a loaded weapon you should expect that there may be consequences to what you're doing. So it may have been reductionist, but it was no joke.

Or let me put it this way. Most people would agree that if you get behind the wheel while drunk you accept that there is a risk of negative repercussions even if you don't have ill intent.I'd say walking around with a loaded weapon carries about that same level of acceptance of risk responsibility especially once you further stipulate that you actually pulled the trigger and killed someone.

You can kill someone while driving sober.. Whats your point..

 

[jon_mx]

Probably Cause requires some evidence not just a gut feeling.

I'm an amateur here but isn't the fact that Zimmerman as admitted to shooting Martin all the evidence they need?The whole thing just comes down to whether or not he had the right to shoot him or not, right?

No, they have to prove it was not self-defense. They have to prove all elements of the crime, meaning that it was illegal what he did. If it was in self-defense, the killing was legally justified under the law.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Given that Martin was not committing a crime I don't follow. Are you speaking in general or specifically in this case?

Martin was committing a crime if he did attack Zimmerman..

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Given that Martin was not committing a crime I don't follow. Are you speaking in general or specifically in this case?

Martin was committing a crime if he did attack Zimmerman..

Not if he was in fear for his life.

 

[GDogg]

Charging affidavit

Affidavit

Wasn't impressed with the investigators before this and this made my impression of them much worse.. A lot of inuendo and outright mind reading in the editorialized story-telling. If anything this shows an undeniable bias against Zimmerman from the police department that is suppose to drowning in institutionalized racism against blacks.

Which parts were innuendo and mind-reading?

The mind reading parts were the parts where they said Zimmerman was profiling Martin and that Zimmerman falsely assumed Martin was a criminal and the part that said Martin just wanted to get home. The innuendo was the part where he said Zimmerman confronted Martin. He offered no proof of how he came up with that conclusion.

I don't think they're required to show proof of any of it- yet.

They are investigators. If they had witnesses who could back this up, they should have said so. If I was a judge, i would throw this case out.

You aren't an attorney, are you?

 

[jon_mx]

Sure. You put someone into a position of being threatened... then when they defend themselves react to the position you have put them into (under the threatened pretense)... you now feel threatened and shoot them dead. Works for me.

This. Guy tails me for no reason while I'm wandering up the street talking on the phone, then drives around the block and comes running up the sidewalk to catch me after I've already given him the slip and I'm gonna feel pretty threatened. So scared for my life I might feel the need to stand my ground or something.

Except that is a distortion of what is claimed to have happened. I don't think there is any proof of what happened after Martin gave Zimmerman the slip. Did Zimmerman find Martin or did Martin double-back and confront Zimmerman. Zimmerman is the only one alive who knows this as far as I can tell.

 

[identikit]

Charging affidavit

Affidavit

Wasn't impressed with the investigators before this and this made my impression of them much worse.. A lot of inuendo and outright mind reading in the editorialized story-telling. If anything this shows an undeniable bias against Zimmerman from the police department that is suppose to drowning in institutionalized racism against blacks.

Which parts were innuendo and mind-reading?

The mind reading parts were the parts where they said Zimmerman was profiling Martin and that Zimmerman falsely assumed Martin was a criminal and the part that said Martin just wanted to get home. The innuendo was the part where he said Zimmerman confronted Martin. He offered no proof of how he came up with that conclusion.

I don't think they're required to show proof of any of it- yet.

They are investigators. If they had witnesses who could back this up, they should have said so. If I was a judge, i would throw this case out.

You aren't an attorney, are you?

Nor a judge...

 

[jon_mx]

Charging affidavit

Affidavit

Wasn't impressed with the investigators before this and this made my impression of them much worse.. A lot of inuendo and outright mind reading in the editorialized story-telling. If anything this shows an undeniable bias against Zimmerman from the police department that is suppose to drowning in institutionalized racism against blacks.

Which parts were innuendo and mind-reading?

The mind reading parts were the parts where they said Zimmerman was profiling Martin and that Zimmerman falsely assumed Martin was a criminal and the part that said Martin just wanted to get home. The innuendo was the part where he said Zimmerman confronted Martin. He offered no proof of how he came up with that conclusion.

I don't think they're required to show proof of any of it- yet.

They are investigators. If they had witnesses who could back this up, they should have said so. If I was a judge, i would throw this case out.

You aren't an attorney, are you?

I slept at a holiday inn express.

 

[GDogg]

I live in Alabama. Everyone has a gun here too.

Zimmerman was not protecting his family from anything.

You mentioned property in addition to family meaning you would shoot someone for stealing, correct?

Do you believe that Zimmerman would have left his car and followed Martin had he not been carrying? We'll never know, and you can easily say yes.

But in order to believe that the gun did not escalate the situation, you have to believe that he would have followed without a gun, and that Trayvon would have killed him had Zimmerman not killed him first. Put together that's a major stretch.

Also, if you can't respond with blatant twisting of words ("dumbest things I have ever heard" in reference to more guns being the appropriate reaction to this incident became "defending your family is one of the dumbest things you can do") then let's save ourselves the trouble and just end this right here.

There's probably a good chance Zimmerman would have tried to keep a visual on Martin whether he had a gun or not. He was trying to protect his neighborhood, not trying to flex his license to carry muscles. He was truly concerned. That's obvious based on all the other stories. And I believe the criteria for self defense is that You believe you life is in danger, or there is a threat of serious bodily harm.

Your belief must also be reasonable. Some moron can't simply be walking down the street, have an unreasonable fear of people wearing hooded sweatshirts, fear that those people will kill him and then shoot him in "self-defense."

 

[StrikeS2k]

Given that Martin was not committing a crime I don't follow. Are you speaking in general or specifically in this case?

Martin was committing a crime if he did attack Zimmerman..

Not if he was in fear for his life.

REASONABLE fear for his life. If someone is whacked out on drugs and thinks everyone is out to get them that doesn't give them a legal basis for attacking everyone. And just because someone is following you doesn't generally mean you can preemptively attack them.

 

[GDogg]

Zimmerman confronted Martin...

Is there an eyewitness to this? I have not heard any nor is there any reference in the report to one. The investigators seem to be assuming that is the way it went down. It is a piss poor report.

Do you read prosecution affidavits for a living?I

I'would hope it takes more than this to throw someone in prison and charge them with murder. .

Read the last paragraph in the affidavit.

So we should take the officer's word that there is mo better evidence he is not disclosing? You want charges, you better tell me why you believe it. This report is pathetic.

That's what a trial is for.

No, it takes more in this country to throw someone in jail besides the opinion of an investigator that he believes that he did it. This is pathetic. If I was black I would be upset with this kind of justice system. Some white cop doesn't like me and have me thrown in prison. Is that how you want our justice system to work? I can't believe how people can defend this crap.

Is this your legal opinion?

 

[GreatLakesMike]

Jon, it's probable cause, not probably cause.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Given that Martin was not committing a crime I don't follow. Are you speaking in general or specifically in this case?

Martin was committing a crime if he did attack Zimmerman..

Not if he was in fear for his life.

REASONABLE fear for his life. If someone is whacked out on drugs and thinks everyone is out to get them that doesn't give them a legal basis for attacking everyone. And just because someone is following you doesn't generally mean you can preemptively attack them.

More then reasonable... he was shot dead.

 

[GDogg]

Zimmerman confronted Martin...

Is there an eyewitness to this? I have not heard any nor is there any reference in the report to one. The investigators seem to be assuming that is the way it went down. It is a piss poor report.

Do you read prosecution affidavits for a living? I

I'would hope it takes more than this to throw someone in prison and charge them with murder. .

I would hope it would take more than simply saying you were getting beat up in order to get away with shooting someone.

Well here in the US, the presumption of innocence is with the defendant. I thought you smart guys knew that by now.

The prosecution is not required to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt in that affidavit. The document is called an Affidavit of Probable Cause.

Probably Cause means just that, that they show it is probably true. I would call the standard met here a wild-### guess.

Ok, my mistake. This is clearly schtick.

 

[jon_mx]

Nor a judge...

It doesn't take a judge. The standard is probably cause based on what a reasonable person would believe when presented these facts. There is not enough facts here to convince anyone what happened. If you can look at the facts presented (the gut feeling of an investigator who clearly does not like Zimmerman) and conclude that Zimmerman is probably guilty, I submit you are not being very reasonable.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Given that Martin was not committing a crime I don't follow. Are you speaking in general or specifically in this case?

If Zimmerman was considered a hero previously for following a suspicious person, what makes you think he wouldn't do it again?Both times Zimmerman was not sure if a crime has been or was going to be committed. The first time it happens that his speculation was correct. If he truely thought Martin appeared to be up to no good, there is no reason for me to believe he had a different intent then the last time he was considered a hero until Martin became physical.

Could it be possible Zimmerman tried to physically apprehend Martin? maybe, we don't know, but did Zimmerman physically detain the last suspicious person? The police make it seem like he did nothing wrong if he did.

I'm sorry but this hero thing has no source. However we do have an event that took place in the form of a neighborhood meeting where residents got together and at least one of the residents actually issued formal complaints about Zimmerman to Sanford police. So I don't think the "hero" reference which never had an identified source is pretty much nullified by the complaints, which do have a source (no, not going to look it up, we all know it's there). Maybe the source for the "hero" comment has surfaced, but even so it's +1 and -1 on that score.Regardless, we're no longer talking about my point here: the presence of the gun was detrimental to both lives. Trayvon is dead, and Zimmerman is facing murder charges. Had Zimmerman not had a gun, I think it's very unlikely that anyone is dead or facing murder charges.

One anonymous report on this, and no substantiation.. Nice try...

 

[GDogg]

Probably Cause requires some evidence not just a gut feeling.

I'm an amateur here but isn't the fact that Zimmerman as admitted to shooting Martin all the evidence they need?The whole thing just comes down to whether or not he had the right to shoot him or not, right?

No, they have to prove it was not self-defense. They have to prove all elements of the crime, meaning that it was illegal what he did. If it was in self-defense, the killing was legally justified under the law.

No, self-defense is a defense. The prosecution needs to put on their case and will take that into account, but they don't need to prove it was not self-defense. The burden is on the defendant to prove that it was self-defense, counselor.

 

[identikit]

Nor a judge...

It doesn't take a judge. The standard is probably cause based on what a reasonable person would believe when presented these facts. There is not enough facts here to convince anyone what happened. If you can look at the facts presented (the gut feeling of an investigator who clearly does not like Zimmerman) and conclude that Zimmerman is probably guilty, I submit you are not being very reasonable.

p-r-o-b-a-b-l-E

 

[StrikeS2k]

Given that Martin was not committing a crime I don't follow. Are you speaking in general or specifically in this case?

Martin was committing a crime if he did attack Zimmerman..

Not if he was in fear for his life.

REASONABLE fear for his life. If someone is whacked out on drugs and thinks everyone is out to get them that doesn't give them a legal basis for attacking everyone. And just because someone is following you doesn't generally mean you can preemptively attack them.

More then reasonable... he was shot dead.

Assuming the facts of this tangent are true, that Martin attacked Zimmerman, then he didn't have a reasonable fear. He initiated the confrontation. Had he not attacked someone he wouldn't have been shot.

 

[jon_mx]

Jon, it's probable cause, not probably cause.

The best-known definition of probable cause is "a reasonable belief that a person has committed a crime".[2] Another common definition is "a reasonable amount of suspicion, supported by circumstances sufficiently strong to justify a prudent and cautious person's belief that certain facts are probably true".[3]2^ 'Lectric Law Library web site. Accessed April 11, 2008.3^ Handler, J.G., Ballentine's Law Dictionary: Legal Assistant Edition (1994, Albanyelmar Publishers), at p. 431.

Is that better, or do you not accept legal definitions on what terms legally mean????

 

[identikit]

Nor a judge...

It doesn't take a judge. The standard is probably cause based on what a reasonable person would believe when presented these facts. There is not enough facts here to convince anyone what happened. If you can look at the facts presented (the gut feeling of an investigator who clearly does not like Zimmerman) and conclude that Zimmerman is probably guilty, I submit you are not being very reasonable.

It's the judge's job. He/she has done this undoubtedly many times.I think I'll trust their judgment that the evidence (both what and what we don't know) is sufficient to proceed.

 

[GDogg]

Nor a judge...

It doesn't take a judge. The standard is probably cause based on what a reasonable person would believe when presented these facts. There is not enough facts here to convince anyone what happened. If you can look at the facts presented (the gut feeling of an investigator who clearly does not like Zimmerman) and conclude that Zimmerman is probably guilty, I submit you are not being very reasonable.

Are you doing this on purpose? Probable cause is a reallly low standard. They need probable cause to believe a crime was committed. That's it.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

Sure. You put someone into a position of being threatened... then when they defend themselves react to the position you have put them into (under the threatened pretense)... you now feel threatened and shoot them dead. Works for me.

This. Guy tails me for no reason while I'm wandering up the street talking on the phone, then drives around the block and comes running up the sidewalk to catch me after I've already given him the slip and I'm gonna feel pretty threatened. So scared for my life I might feel the need to stand my ground or something.

Except that is a distortion of what is claimed to have happened. I don't think there is any proof of what happened after Martin gave Zimmerman the slip. Did Zimmerman find Martin or did Martin double-back and confront Zimmerman. Zimmerman is the only one alive who knows this as far as I can tell.

Dude you`re killin me welcome the the truth,im pretty sure no matter how upset you get and stomp your feet ,the prosecution knows waaay more than they are letting on. Treyvon martin and his family have as many rights as gentle george zimmerman. This case is finally where it should be, in a court of law.

 

[jon_mx]

Probably Cause requires some evidence not just a gut feeling.

I'm an amateur here but isn't the fact that Zimmerman as admitted to shooting Martin all the evidence they need?The whole thing just comes down to whether or not he had the right to shoot him or not, right?

No, they have to prove it was not self-defense. They have to prove all elements of the crime, meaning that it was illegal what he did. If it was in self-defense, the killing was legally justified under the law.

No, self-defense is a defense. The prosecution needs to put on their case and will take that into account, but they don't need to prove it was not self-defense. The burden is on the defendant to prove that it was self-defense, counselor.

On that point, technically, it is proponderence of evidence. Which ever side presents the better case wins. Right now we have one living witness who knows vs. the guy feeling of an investigator. Without an eye-witness or evidence to prove otherwise, this case fails.

 

[Guest]

Can we get the Judge Jon show on the air?