Florida boy killed by Neighborhood Watch (2 Viewers)

[Neofight]

You do realize, being that Martin was shot dead that night, that we are dealing in hypotheticals here, yes?

There was nothing hypothetical about your statement.

That much is correct.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

According to Florida law Martin was not obligated to back down. Regardless, even in a statutorily sane state Martin might have at most faced misdemeanor charges for besting that idiot.

Depends when Martin would have stopped. If he would have done permanent damage to Zimmerman, it would have been a felony. As big of an idiot as Zimmerman might have been, it does not excuse it.

well lets just deal with the facts as we know them. Zimmerman by his own testimony said treyvon had fled and that he was going after him...period. Anything after that is conjecture. You can say treyvon doubled back and followed zimm all you want but we have no proof. Yet we do have proof that zimm was the agressor in the sense that he was following someone who was moving away from zimmerman, not the other ay around.End of argument.

Why did you stop with telling all the facts? Based on the call with the police dispatcher, the following was said (you already know this but it didn't fit with your point):At 2:07 minutes into his call to the police, Zimmerman says, "he's running.". At 2:37 minutes, Zimmerman tells the dispatcher, "he ran." The sound of an "open door" chime, a change in Zimmerman's voice and the sound of wind indicate that Zimmerman has left his vehicle, prompting the dispatcher to ask if Zimmerman is following Martin. When Zimmerman confirms that he is, the dispatcher says, "We don't need you to do that."[111] Zimmerman says "OK".

Based on the 'facts' - Zimmerman stopped his pursuit of Martin when instructed. Anything after THAT is conjecture. You can say Zimmerman continued to follow Martin but we have no proof.

I'll just let Christo take care of this...Wait, you already answered his question yourself in the very next few sentences. Well done.

ummm...you just repeated what i said witz only you added him saying ok, that doesnt change the fact that zimm was the follower by his own words...period ...the ...end.

Wait, what?You said the following: Zimmerman by his own testimony said treyvon had fled and that he was going after him...period. Anything after that is conjecture.

The point is you stopped short of what we know - the dispatcher said he didn't need to follow and he said ok. That is a pretty huge component to leave out when making the statement that anything after that is conjuncture.

Just because he followed him initially doesn't mean he was following him when the confrontation took place (i.e. just because I chewed gum yesterday doesn't mean I'm chewing gum now). Based on your logic thought, I'm guessing Zimmerman is still following Martin right now.

and by your logic we know for a fact that zimmerman stopped his pursuit when he said ok ,interesting.

 

[Charlie Frown]

Seriously???? THATS your video proof??? hahahahahahaha.You cant tell one person from the next...nice try.But lets play this out, even if that wasnt just some black high school kid and it really was him, that video doesnt help zimmermans case in the least. If thats the level of fighting that treyvon is accustomed too then thats all the proof one needs to say zimmerman was in no way in fear for his life. Little high school yard fights, not exactly Kimbo Slice lmao.

But George had his nose broken!

It doesn't take Mike Tyson to kill someone by banging their head into the ground. I somehow managed to get through life without banging someones head into the ground. The innocent skittle's boy was likely in the process of committing a felony when he was shot.

Some solid evidence here.

Oh yeah, physical evidence of injuries, eye-witnesses who saw a fight, testimony from participant....yep, not much different than an anonymous tipster.

What do Mike Tyson, your managing to get through life without banging someone's head into the ground (which is considerably softer than concrete) and Skittles have to do with your lack of evidence that Trayvon Martin was committing a felony?Where's the logic?

It was a response to the Kimbo Slice logic. There is plenty of evidence that Trayvon was engaged in assault and battery. Multiple eye-witnesses and injuries. Enough evidence to convict him in a court of law if he were alive.

again...the EMT`s worked on George Zimbecile for around 8 minutes or less, never even bandaged his cuts and he felt no need to go to the hospital that night....oh the horror of that attack must have been more than he could handle, that poor man. Good thing he had that handgun at the ready. its too bad he had that gun because honestly i think treyvon would have taught that idiot a lesson in minding his own business, a good old fashioned beatdown can have that effect sometimes.

I love it when people on message boards talk about things like good old fashioned beatdowns. The anger over things looking more like Zimmerman's account being truthful is mystifying. We all should be about the truth on this, regardless of our political lean. If Zimmerman truly instigated the fight and killed Martin then we all should agree he should be found guilty. That just doesn't seem to be the way the evidence released so far is suggesting. If Zimmerman's story proves to be true, then why wouldn't everyone agree he should be found not guilty and released? Even some of the MSNBC hardliners have abandoned talking about this case in the light of what is coming out and it not agreeing with their agenda.

 

[Witz]

According to Florida law Martin was not obligated to back down. Regardless, even in a statutorily sane state Martin might have at most faced misdemeanor charges for besting that idiot.

Depends when Martin would have stopped. If he would have done permanent damage to Zimmerman, it would have been a felony. As big of an idiot as Zimmerman might have been, it does not excuse it.

well lets just deal with the facts as we know them. Zimmerman by his own testimony said treyvon had fled and that he was going after him...period. Anything after that is conjecture. You can say treyvon doubled back and followed zimm all you want but we have no proof. Yet we do have proof that zimm was the agressor in the sense that he was following someone who was moving away from zimmerman, not the other ay around.End of argument.

Why did you stop with telling all the facts? Based on the call with the police dispatcher, the following was said (you already know this but it didn't fit with your point):At 2:07 minutes into his call to the police, Zimmerman says, "he's running.". At 2:37 minutes, Zimmerman tells the dispatcher, "he ran." The sound of an "open door" chime, a change in Zimmerman's voice and the sound of wind indicate that Zimmerman has left his vehicle, prompting the dispatcher to ask if Zimmerman is following Martin. When Zimmerman confirms that he is, the dispatcher says, "We don't need you to do that."[111] Zimmerman says "OK".

Based on the 'facts' - Zimmerman stopped his pursuit of Martin when instructed. Anything after THAT is conjecture. You can say Zimmerman continued to follow Martin but we have no proof.

I'll just let Christo take care of this...Wait, you already answered his question yourself in the very next few sentences. Well done.

ummm...you just repeated what i said witz only you added him saying ok, that doesnt change the fact that zimm was the follower by his own words...period ...the ...end.

Wait, what?You said the following: Zimmerman by his own testimony said treyvon had fled and that he was going after him...period. Anything after that is conjecture.

The point is you stopped short of what we know - the dispatcher said he didn't need to follow and he said ok. That is a pretty huge component to leave out when making the statement that anything after that is conjuncture.

Just because he followed him initially doesn't mean he was following him when the confrontation took place (i.e. just because I chewed gum yesterday doesn't mean I'm chewing gum now). Based on your logic thought, I'm guessing Zimmerman is still following Martin right now.

and by your logic we know for a fact that zimmerman stopped his pursuit when he said ok ,interesting.

So you believe him when he told the operator he was following Martin but don't when he responded 'ok' when told he didn't need to follow him. In summary, you believe his words when they fit with your agenda but do not when they don't. Interesting.

 

[Neofight]

According to Florida law Martin was not obligated to back down. Regardless, even in a statutorily sane state Martin might have at most faced misdemeanor charges for besting that idiot.

Depends when Martin would have stopped. If he would have done permanent damage to Zimmerman, it would have been a felony. As big of an idiot as Zimmerman might have been, it does not excuse it.

well lets just deal with the facts as we know them. Zimmerman by his own testimony said treyvon had fled and that he was going after him...period. Anything after that is conjecture. You can say treyvon doubled back and followed zimm all you want but we have no proof. Yet we do have proof that zimm was the agressor in the sense that he was following someone who was moving away from zimmerman, not the other ay around.End of argument.

Why did you stop with telling all the facts? Based on the call with the police dispatcher, the following was said (you already know this but it didn't fit with your point):At 2:07 minutes into his call to the police, Zimmerman says, "he's running.". At 2:37 minutes, Zimmerman tells the dispatcher, "he ran." The sound of an "open door" chime, a change in Zimmerman's voice and the sound of wind indicate that Zimmerman has left his vehicle, prompting the dispatcher to ask if Zimmerman is following Martin. When Zimmerman confirms that he is, the dispatcher says, "We don't need you to do that."[111] Zimmerman says "OK".

Based on the 'facts' - Zimmerman stopped his pursuit of Martin when instructed. Anything after THAT is conjecture. You can say Zimmerman continued to follow Martin but we have no proof.

I'll just let Christo take care of this...Wait, you already answered his question yourself in the very next few sentences. Well done.

ummm...you just repeated what i said witz only you added him saying ok, that doesnt change the fact that zimm was the follower by his own words...period ...the ...end.

Wait, what?You said the following: Zimmerman by his own testimony said treyvon had fled and that he was going after him...period. Anything after that is conjecture.

The point is you stopped short of what we know - the dispatcher said he didn't need to follow and he said ok. That is a pretty huge component to leave out when making the statement that anything after that is conjuncture.

Just because he followed him initially doesn't mean he was following him when the confrontation took place (i.e. just because I chewed gum yesterday doesn't mean I'm chewing gum now). Based on your logic thought, I'm guessing Zimmerman is still following Martin right now.

and by your logic we know for a fact that zimmerman stopped his pursuit when he said ok ,interesting.

So you believe him when he told the operator he was following Martin but don't when he responded 'ok' when told he didn't need to follow him. In summary, you believe his words when they fit with your agenda but do not when they don't. Interesting.

####### phenomenal!

 

[pantherclub]

Seriously???? THATS your video proof??? hahahahahahaha.You cant tell one person from the next...nice try.But lets play this out, even if that wasnt just some black high school kid and it really was him, that video doesnt help zimmermans case in the least. If thats the level of fighting that treyvon is accustomed too then thats all the proof one needs to say zimmerman was in no way in fear for his life. Little high school yard fights, not exactly Kimbo Slice lmao.

But George had his nose broken!

It doesn't take Mike Tyson to kill someone by banging their head into the ground. I somehow managed to get through life without banging someones head into the ground. The innocent skittle's boy was likely in the process of committing a felony when he was shot.

Some solid evidence here.

Oh yeah, physical evidence of injuries, eye-witnesses who saw a fight, testimony from participant....yep, not much different than an anonymous tipster.

What do Mike Tyson, your managing to get through life without banging someone's head into the ground (which is considerably softer than concrete) and Skittles have to do with your lack of evidence that Trayvon Martin was committing a felony?Where's the logic?

It was a response to the Kimbo Slice logic. There is plenty of evidence that Trayvon was engaged in assault and battery. Multiple eye-witnesses and injuries. Enough evidence to convict him in a court of law if he were alive.

again...the EMT`s worked on George Zimbecile for around 8 minutes or less, never even bandaged his cuts and he felt no need to go to the hospital that night....oh the horror of that attack must have been more than he could handle, that poor man. Good thing he had that handgun at the ready. its too bad he had that gun because honestly i think treyvon would have taught that idiot a lesson in minding his own business, a good old fashioned beatdown can have that effect sometimes.

I love it when people on message boards talk about things like good old fashioned beatdowns. The anger over things looking more like Zimmerman's account being truthful is mystifying. We all should be about the truth on this, regardless of our political lean. If Zimmerman truly instigated the fight and killed Martin then we all should agree he should be found guilty. That just doesn't seem to be the way the evidence released so far is suggesting. If Zimmerman's story proves to be true, then why wouldn't everyone agree he should be found not guilty and released? Even some of the MSNBC hardliners have abandoned talking about this case in the light of what is coming out and it not agreeing with their agenda.

What new facts have come to light to support zimmer?What is MSNBC's agenda in this case?

 

[BustedKnuckles]

According to Florida law Martin was not obligated to back down. Regardless, even in a statutorily sane state Martin might have at most faced misdemeanor charges for besting that idiot.

Depends when Martin would have stopped. If he would have done permanent damage to Zimmerman, it would have been a felony. As big of an idiot as Zimmerman might have been, it does not excuse it.

well lets just deal with the facts as we know them. Zimmerman by his own testimony said treyvon had fled and that he was going after him...period. Anything after that is conjecture. You can say treyvon doubled back and followed zimm all you want but we have no proof. Yet we do have proof that zimm was the agressor in the sense that he was following someone who was moving away from zimmerman, not the other ay around.End of argument.

Why did you stop with telling all the facts? Based on the call with the police dispatcher, the following was said (you already know this but it didn't fit with your point):At 2:07 minutes into his call to the police, Zimmerman says, "he's running.". At 2:37 minutes, Zimmerman tells the dispatcher, "he ran." The sound of an "open door" chime, a change in Zimmerman's voice and the sound of wind indicate that Zimmerman has left his vehicle, prompting the dispatcher to ask if Zimmerman is following Martin. When Zimmerman confirms that he is, the dispatcher says, "We don't need you to do that."[111] Zimmerman says "OK".

Based on the 'facts' - Zimmerman stopped his pursuit of Martin when instructed. Anything after THAT is conjecture. You can say Zimmerman continued to follow Martin but we have no proof.

I'll just let Christo take care of this...Wait, you already answered his question yourself in the very next few sentences. Well done.

ummm...you just repeated what i said witz only you added him saying ok, that doesnt change the fact that zimm was the follower by his own words...period ...the ...end.

Wait, what?You said the following: Zimmerman by his own testimony said treyvon had fled and that he was going after him...period. Anything after that is conjecture.

The point is you stopped short of what we know - the dispatcher said he didn't need to follow and he said ok. That is a pretty huge component to leave out when making the statement that anything after that is conjuncture.

Just because he followed him initially doesn't mean he was following him when the confrontation took place (i.e. just because I chewed gum yesterday doesn't mean I'm chewing gum now). Based on your logic thought, I'm guessing Zimmerman is still following Martin right now.

and by your logic we know for a fact that zimmerman stopped his pursuit when he said ok ,interesting.

So you believe him when he told the operator he was following Martin but don't when he responded 'ok' when told he didn't need to follow him. In summary, you believe his words when they fit with your agenda but do not when they don't. Interesting.

I know zimmerman was out of his truck some distance from where it was parked because he left it to go after treyvon, after that treyvon was shot to death.

 

[jon_mx]

I know zimmerman was out of his truck some distance from where it was parked because he left it to go after treyvon, after that treyvon was shot to death.

It is almost a near certainty that Trayvon came back and confronted Zimmerman. I would wager $100 on that.

 

[jon_mx]

What new facts have come to light to support zimmer?What is MSNBC's agenda in this case?

Not much new, the facts have always aligned with Zimmerman's story. I suppose the pictures of Zimmerman's injuries have been released. MSNBC's agenda is similar to Tim's, to promote this idea that institutional racism is still a huge problem and we need big government to swoop in and solve it.

 

[pantherclub]

What new facts have come to light to support zimmer?

What is MSNBC's agenda in this case?

Not much new, the facts have always aligned with Zimmerman's story. I suppose the pictures of Zimmerman's injuries have been released. MSNBC's agenda is similar to Tim's, to promote this idea that institutional racism is still a huge problem and we need big government to swoop in and solve it.

I truly feel sorry for you if you actually believe that.

 

[Christo]

What new facts have come to light to support zimmer?

What is MSNBC's agenda in this case?

Not much new, the facts have always aligned with Zimmerman's story. I suppose the pictures of Zimmerman's injuries have been released. MSNBC's agenda is similar to Tim's, to promote this idea that institutional racism is still a huge problem and we need big government to swoop in and solve it.

I truly feel sorry for you if you actually believe that.

Is it that you believe MSNBC has no political agenda or that it doesn't have that particular political agenda?

 

[Witz]

According to Florida law Martin was not obligated to back down. Regardless, even in a statutorily sane state Martin might have at most faced misdemeanor charges for besting that idiot.

Depends when Martin would have stopped. If he would have done permanent damage to Zimmerman, it would have been a felony. As big of an idiot as Zimmerman might have been, it does not excuse it.

well lets just deal with the facts as we know them. Zimmerman by his own testimony said treyvon had fled and that he was going after him...period. Anything after that is conjecture. You can say treyvon doubled back and followed zimm all you want but we have no proof. Yet we do have proof that zimm was the agressor in the sense that he was following someone who was moving away from zimmerman, not the other ay around.End of argument.

Why did you stop with telling all the facts? Based on the call with the police dispatcher, the following was said (you already know this but it didn't fit with your point):At 2:07 minutes into his call to the police, Zimmerman says, "he's running.". At 2:37 minutes, Zimmerman tells the dispatcher, "he ran." The sound of an "open door" chime, a change in Zimmerman's voice and the sound of wind indicate that Zimmerman has left his vehicle, prompting the dispatcher to ask if Zimmerman is following Martin. When Zimmerman confirms that he is, the dispatcher says, "We don't need you to do that."[111] Zimmerman says "OK".

Based on the 'facts' - Zimmerman stopped his pursuit of Martin when instructed. Anything after THAT is conjecture. You can say Zimmerman continued to follow Martin but we have no proof.

I'll just let Christo take care of this...Wait, you already answered his question yourself in the very next few sentences. Well done.

ummm...you just repeated what i said witz only you added him saying ok, that doesnt change the fact that zimm was the follower by his own words...period ...the ...end.

Wait, what?You said the following: Zimmerman by his own testimony said treyvon had fled and that he was going after him...period. Anything after that is conjecture.

The point is you stopped short of what we know - the dispatcher said he didn't need to follow and he said ok. That is a pretty huge component to leave out when making the statement that anything after that is conjuncture.

Just because he followed him initially doesn't mean he was following him when the confrontation took place (i.e. just because I chewed gum yesterday doesn't mean I'm chewing gum now). Based on your logic thought, I'm guessing Zimmerman is still following Martin right now.

and by your logic we know for a fact that zimmerman stopped his pursuit when he said ok ,interesting.

So you believe him when he told the operator he was following Martin but don't when he responded 'ok' when told he didn't need to follow him. In summary, you believe his words when they fit with your agenda but do not when they don't. Interesting.

I know zimmerman was out of his truck some distance from where it was parked because he left it to go after treyvon, after that treyvon was shot to death.

At 2:07 minutes into his call to the police, Zimmerman says, "he's running.". At 2:37 minutes, Zimmerman tells the dispatcher, "he ran." The sound of an "open door" chime, a change in Zimmerman's voice and the sound of wind indicate that Zimmerman has left his vehicle, prompting the dispatcher to ask if Zimmerman is following Martin. When Zimmerman confirms that he is, the dispatcher says, "We don't need you to do that." Zimmerman says "OK".No is disputing that Zimmerman was following him initially. The dispute is whether or not Zimmerman was on his way back to his truck when the altercation occurred. Again - neither you nor I can confirm what happened there (did Zimmerman continue following him or did he start heading back to his truck).

 

[pantherclub]

What new facts have come to light to support zimmer?

What is MSNBC's agenda in this case?

Not much new, the facts have always aligned with Zimmerman's story. I suppose the pictures of Zimmerman's injuries have been released. MSNBC's agenda is similar to Tim's, to promote this idea that institutional racism is still a huge problem and we need big government to swoop in and solve it.

I truly feel sorry for you if you actually believe that.

Is it that you believe MSNBC has no political agenda or that it doesn't have that particular political agenda?

the latter and to some degree the formerthey are in business after all

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Seriously???? THATS your video proof??? hahahahahahaha.You cant tell one person from the next...nice try.But lets play this out, even if that wasnt just some black high school kid and it really was him, that video doesnt help zimmermans case in the least. If thats the level of fighting that treyvon is accustomed too then thats all the proof one needs to say zimmerman was in no way in fear for his life. Little high school yard fights, not exactly Kimbo Slice lmao.

The video was posted by Trayvon on Trayvons youtube account. And I never said I had proof of anything. I said the anonymous caller doesn't equal the sum total of all we know about trayvon.In total I think there were 3 videos. One of which was a bit nastier.No one said the video proved anything about the case and/or it would have any affect on the outcome. You acted as if the videos were only a rumor.. There's one of them, and I'm sure with about 15mins of your time you could find the rest of them.The problem I have with your argument here is that you aren't addressing our original discussion point. You insinuated that the anonymous caller was just as much proof that Zimm was a racist, as the info we have about Trayvon shows that Trayvon wasn't an innocent young gentleman.. I'd say the anonymous caller proves nothing. That is not tangible evidence. There are things we know about Trayvons charachter that are based on tangible evidence. He has jewelry that was not his in his bookbag, he defaced school property, he uses illegal drugs and had drugs at school, he's involved to some degree in fighting, multiple suspensions in one school year, he refers to himself as "No limit ni##a"..Lets stick to what we were discussing..This paints a less than savory picture of Trayvon. The anonymous caller is next to nothing..

 

[Carolina Hustler]

The documents also show that a Sanford police investigator, Trekell Perkins, received a phone call from an anonymous woman two days after the shooting who said that Zimmerman had "racist ideologies," and was "fully capable" of instigating a deadly confrontation.

Needless to say this doesn't shock me either. Hopefully some more information will come out about it.

Truly pitiful that anyone would put any weight into an anonymous call in such an emotionally charged case.

No different than the pro-zimms believing all the thug crap about treyvon.

Yea, a police officer at the school, Trayvons own voice, pictures, and video are = to an anonymous call..It's exactly the same.. "No different"...

ya...all spun to look worse than it was by people with an agenda.There is no proof of him referring any mma style fights. The ''stolen jewelry'' was never proven to be stolen.No proof of ever swinging at a bus driver, just goofy tweets .So ya, the same thing buddy.

1) I saw 2 videos where he was refereeing fights2) If the jewelry was his, and not stolen, why didn't he ask for it back?3) No proof that he swung at a bus driver, but more convincing evidence then that you're using to suggest Zimmerman is racist..

4) You forgot to mention:

- The 'Trayvon made' rap music that has since been removed from youtube

- The photos of him posing as a thug. I've seen at least 3 of these..

- The graffiti at school

- the illegal drug use, and drugs at school

- the multiple school suspensions. 3 or 4 within one school year..

I never said Trayvon was a thug, but suggesting all of this ^ is in some way comparable to 1 anonymous callers testament is crazy. You don't know who made that call, and/or what their motivation was. Could have been a friend of the Martin family for all we know.

Link?

They were posted by him on his youtube account, but have since been removed. Some of them are still out there, you only need to google them.Here's one, Trayvon in black and silver stripes

And read the info under the video..

That is what you are falling back on? Seriously have you lost all sense of reality? Are you really using some choppy vid of a high school fight to make some sort of point? Godalmighty there simply are no words to describe that type of stupidity.

Falling back on? He asked for a link, I gave him one.. And honestly, I don't feel like I need to "fall back" on anything. That video isn't needed to prove any point I was making.. The kid was suspended from school several times in one school year, had drugs at school, defaced school property.. That all is credible evidence towards Trayvons character. The anonymous phone call is not credible evidence..It was a video posted by Trayvon though.. And he posted more than one..

 

[Christo]

What new facts have come to light to support zimmer?

What is MSNBC's agenda in this case?

Not much new, the facts have always aligned with Zimmerman's story. I suppose the pictures of Zimmerman's injuries have been released. MSNBC's agenda is similar to Tim's, to promote this idea that institutional racism is still a huge problem and we need big government to swoop in and solve it.

I truly feel sorry for you if you actually believe that.

Is it that you believe MSNBC has no political agenda or that it doesn't have that particular political agenda?

the latter and to some degree the formerthey are in business after all

So's Fox News.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

Seriously???? THATS your video proof??? hahahahahahaha.You cant tell one person from the next...nice try.

But lets play this out, even if that wasnt just some black high school kid and it really was him, that video doesnt help zimmermans case in the least. If thats the level of fighting that treyvon is accustomed too then thats all the proof one needs to say zimmerman was in no way in fear for his life. Little high school yard fights, not exactly Kimbo Slice lmao.

The video was posted by Trayvon on Trayvons youtube account. And I never said I had proof of anything. I said the anonymous caller doesn't equal the sum total of all we know about trayvon.In total I think there were 3 videos. One of which was a bit nastier.

No one said the video proved anything about the case and/or it would have any affect on the outcome. You acted as if the videos were only a rumor.. There's one of them, and I'm sure with about 15mins of your time you could find the rest of them.

The problem I have with your argument here is that you aren't addressing our original discussion point. You insinuated that the anonymous caller was just as much proof that Zimm was a racist, as the info we have about Trayvon shows that Trayvon wasn't an innocent young gentleman.. I'd say the anonymous caller proves nothing. That is not tangible evidence. There are things we know about Trayvons charachter that are based on tangible evidence. He has jewelry that was not his in his bookbag, he defaced school property, he uses illegal drugs and had drugs at school, he's involved to some degree in fighting, multiple suspensions in one school year, he refers to himself as "No limit ni##a"..

Lets stick to what we were discussing..This paints a less than savory picture of Trayvon. The anonymous caller is next to nothing..

Excuse me? I did no such thing. I only posted a part of a report made public as it pretains to this case.Tim made reference to it not me. You act like those videos have treyvon fighting or something, and its next to impossible to see if hes is actually even in the crowd watching.Its as bogus as an anonymous call to the police but someone found it significant to add it to the investigation.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Seriously???? THATS your video proof??? hahahahahahaha.You cant tell one person from the next...nice try.

But lets play this out, even if that wasnt just some black high school kid and it really was him, that video doesnt help zimmermans case in the least. If thats the level of fighting that treyvon is accustomed too then thats all the proof one needs to say zimmerman was in no way in fear for his life. Little high school yard fights, not exactly Kimbo Slice lmao.

But George had his nose broken!

It doesn't take Mike Tyson to kill someone by banging their head into the ground. I somehow managed to get through life without banging someones head into the ground. The innocent skittle's boy was likely in the process of committing a felony when he was shot.

Some solid evidence here.

Oh yeah, physical evidence of injuries, eye-witnesses who saw a fight, testimony from participant....yep, not much different than an anonymous tipster.

What do Mike Tyson, your managing to get through life without banging someone's head into the ground (which is considerably softer than concrete) and Skittles have to do with your lack of evidence that Trayvon Martin was committing a felony?Where's the logic?

It was a response to the Kimbo Slice logic. There is plenty of evidence that Trayvon was engaged in assault and battery. Multiple eye-witnesses and injuries. Enough evidence to convict him in a court of law if he were alive.

Link?

My link

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Seriously???? THATS your video proof??? hahahahahahaha.You cant tell one person from the next...nice try.

But lets play this out, even if that wasnt just some black high school kid and it really was him, that video doesnt help zimmermans case in the least. If thats the level of fighting that treyvon is accustomed too then thats all the proof one needs to say zimmerman was in no way in fear for his life. Little high school yard fights, not exactly Kimbo Slice lmao.

But George had his nose broken!

It doesn't take Mike Tyson to kill someone by banging their head into the ground. I somehow managed to get through life without banging someones head into the ground. The innocent skittle's boy was likely in the process of committing a felony when he was shot.

Some solid evidence here.

Oh yeah, physical evidence of injuries, eye-witnesses who saw a fight, testimony from participant....yep, not much different than an anonymous tipster.

What do Mike Tyson, your managing to get through life without banging someone's head into the ground (which is considerably softer than concrete) and Skittles have to do with your lack of evidence that Trayvon Martin was committing a felony?Where's the logic?

It was a response to the Kimbo Slice logic. There is plenty of evidence that Trayvon was engaged in assault and battery. Multiple eye-witnesses and injuries. Enough evidence to convict him in a court of law if he were alive.

again...the EMT`s worked on George Zimbecile for around 8 minutes or less, never even bandaged his cuts and he felt no need to go to the hospital that night....oh the horror of that attack must have been more than he could handle, that poor man. Good thing he had that handgun at the ready. its too bad he had that gun because honestly i think treyvon would have taught that idiot a lesson in minding his own business, a good old fashioned beatdown can have that effect sometimes.

Clearly that neighborhood needs more people to mind their own buisness.. They should just disband any notion of neighborhood watch all together.. No crime there..

 

[Carolina Hustler]

faced misdemeanor charges for besting that idiot.

I think I'd better delete all my responses to Texasfan and busted knuckles

 

[Carolina Hustler]

According to Florida law Martin was not obligated to back down. Regardless, even in a statutorily sane state Martin might have at most faced misdemeanor charges for besting that idiot.

Depends when Martin would have stopped. If he would have done permanent damage to Zimmerman, it would have been a felony. As big of an idiot as Zimmerman might have been, it does not excuse it.

well lets just deal with the facts as we know them. Zimmerman by his own testimony said treyvon had fled and that he was going after him...period. Anything after that is conjecture. You can say treyvon doubled back and followed zimm all you want but we have no proof. Yet we do have proof that zimm was the agressor in the sense that he was following someone who was moving away from zimmerman, not the other ay around.End of argument.

OK, Zimmerman is not a liar when it suits your argument, but when it doesn't suit your argument he is a liar.. Got it..

 

[BustedKnuckles]

faced misdemeanor charges for besting that idiot.

I think I'd better delete all my responses to Texasfan and busted knuckles

ya, you are the zen master of arguing

 

[Carolina Hustler]

According to Florida law Martin was not obligated to back down. Regardless, even in a statutorily sane state Martin might have at most faced misdemeanor charges for besting that idiot.

Depends when Martin would have stopped. If he would have done permanent damage to Zimmerman, it would have been a felony. As big of an idiot as Zimmerman might have been, it does not excuse it.

Woulda, coulda... do you have anything besides conjecture and the belief of a guy who is clearly not very capable? You say you wouldn't excuse some hypothetical, made up maiming but you're cool with a dude plugging a teen through the heart at close range, then claiming he feared for his life when the entire altercation lasted about as long as Hustler's farce video evidence? Think about that for a moment.

Obviously the length of the confrontation dictates that it was not a dangerous confrontation.. Proof in that no one was hurt or killed.... o' wait..

 

[Tuco]

Seriously???? THATS your video proof??? hahahahahahaha.You cant tell one person from the next...nice try.But lets play this out, even if that wasnt just some black high school kid and it really was him, that video doesnt help zimmermans case in the least. If thats the level of fighting that treyvon is accustomed too then thats all the proof one needs to say zimmerman was in no way in fear for his life. Little high school yard fights, not exactly Kimbo Slice lmao.

But George had his nose broken!

It doesn't take Mike Tyson to kill someone by banging their head into the ground. I somehow managed to get through life without banging someones head into the ground. The innocent skittle's boy was likely in the process of committing a felony when he was shot.

Some solid evidence here.

Oh yeah, physical evidence of injuries, eye-witnesses who saw a fight, testimony from participant....yep, not much different than an anonymous tipster.

What do Mike Tyson, your managing to get through life without banging someone's head into the ground (which is considerably softer than concrete) and Skittles have to do with your lack of evidence that Trayvon Martin was committing a felony?Where's the logic?

It was a response to the Kimbo Slice logic. There is plenty of evidence that Trayvon was engaged in assault and battery. Multiple eye-witnesses and injuries. Enough evidence to convict him in a court of law if he were alive.

again...the EMT`s worked on George Zimbecile for around 8 minutes or less, never even bandaged his cuts and he felt no need to go to the hospital that night....oh the horror of that attack must have been more than he could handle, that poor man. Good thing he had that handgun at the ready. its too bad he had that gun because honestly i think treyvon would have taught that idiot a lesson in minding his own business, a good old fashioned beatdown can have that effect sometimes.

How many minutes of attention from the EMT would represent enough treatment? If Martin had struck him two more times, 8 more times, 20 more times, would that be enough? How much larger would the wound on the back of Zimmerman's head need to be to warrant SYG? If Zimmerman allowed his broken nose to be treated at the hospital, would it then be ok?

 

[BustedKnuckles]

According to Florida law Martin was not obligated to back down. Regardless, even in a statutorily sane state Martin might have at most faced misdemeanor charges for besting that idiot.

Depends when Martin would have stopped. If he would have done permanent damage to Zimmerman, it would have been a felony. As big of an idiot as Zimmerman might have been, it does not excuse it.

well lets just deal with the facts as we know them. Zimmerman by his own testimony said treyvon had fled and that he was going after him...period. Anything after that is conjecture. You can say treyvon doubled back and followed zimm all you want but we have no proof. Yet we do have proof that zimm was the agressor in the sense that he was following someone who was moving away from zimmerman, not the other ay around.End of argument.

OK, Zimmerman is not a liar when it suits your argument, but when it doesn't suit your argument he is a liar.. Got it..

im just stating the facts as we know them. If zimm was at his truck when the shooting happened then yes it would prove he complied, but he wasnt , he was way around the back of the building .So we dont know if he complying or not, but we do know he followed a person he said was getting away. The whole point was did treyvon have the right to stand his ground. Its all conjecture to say he doubled back on zimm , we dont know. But we do know zimm was the follower to begin with.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

According to Florida law Martin was not obligated to back down. Regardless, even in a statutorily sane state Martin might have at most faced misdemeanor charges for besting that idiot.

Depends when Martin would have stopped. If he would have done permanent damage to Zimmerman, it would have been a felony. As big of an idiot as Zimmerman might have been, it does not excuse it.

well lets just deal with the facts as we know them. Zimmerman by his own testimony said treyvon had fled and that he was going after him...period. Anything after that is conjecture. You can say treyvon doubled back and followed zimm all you want but we have no proof. Yet we do have proof that zimm was the agressor in the sense that he was following someone who was moving away from zimmerman, not the other ay around.End of argument.

Why did you stop with telling all the facts? Based on the call with the police dispatcher, the following was said (you already know this but it didn't fit with your point):At 2:07 minutes into his call to the police, Zimmerman says, "he's running.". At 2:37 minutes, Zimmerman tells the dispatcher, "he ran." The sound of an "open door" chime, a change in Zimmerman's voice and the sound of wind indicate that Zimmerman has left his vehicle, prompting the dispatcher to ask if Zimmerman is following Martin. When Zimmerman confirms that he is, the dispatcher says, "We don't need you to do that."[111] Zimmerman says "OK".

Based on the 'facts' - Zimmerman stopped his pursuit of Martin when instructed. Anything after THAT is conjecture. You can say Zimmerman continued to follow Martin but we have no proof.

I'll just let Christo take care of this...Wait, you already answered his question yourself in the very next few sentences. Well done.

He is right, you have no proof that Zimmerman continued to pursue, follow, look for Trayvon after the dispatcher made the statement.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

According to Florida law Martin was not obligated to back down. Regardless, even in a statutorily sane state Martin might have at most faced misdemeanor charges for besting that idiot.

Depends when Martin would have stopped. If he would have done permanent damage to Zimmerman, it would have been a felony. As big of an idiot as Zimmerman might have been, it does not excuse it.

well lets just deal with the facts as we know them. Zimmerman by his own testimony said treyvon had fled and that he was going after him...period. Anything after that is conjecture. You can say treyvon doubled back and followed zimm all you want but we have no proof. Yet we do have proof that zimm was the agressor in the sense that he was following someone who was moving away from zimmerman, not the other ay around.End of argument.

Why did you stop with telling all the facts? Based on the call with the police dispatcher, the following was said (you already know this but it didn't fit with your point):At 2:07 minutes into his call to the police, Zimmerman says, "he's running.". At 2:37 minutes, Zimmerman tells the dispatcher, "he ran." The sound of an "open door" chime, a change in Zimmerman's voice and the sound of wind indicate that Zimmerman has left his vehicle, prompting the dispatcher to ask if Zimmerman is following Martin. When Zimmerman confirms that he is, the dispatcher says, "We don't need you to do that."[111] Zimmerman says "OK".

Based on the 'facts' - Zimmerman stopped his pursuit of Martin when instructed. Anything after THAT is conjecture. You can say Zimmerman continued to follow Martin but we have no proof.

I'll just let Christo take care of this...Wait, you already answered his question yourself in the very next few sentences. Well done.

ummm...you just repeated what i said witz only you added him saying ok, that doesnt change the fact that zimm was the follower by his own words...period ...the ...end.

But he said, "...period ...the ...end."

/thread

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Seriously???? THATS your video proof??? hahahahahahaha.You cant tell one person from the next...nice try.But lets play this out, even if that wasnt just some black high school kid and it really was him, that video doesnt help zimmermans case in the least. If thats the level of fighting that treyvon is accustomed too then thats all the proof one needs to say zimmerman was in no way in fear for his life. Little high school yard fights, not exactly Kimbo Slice lmao.

But George had his nose broken!

It doesn't take Mike Tyson to kill someone by banging their head into the ground. I somehow managed to get through life without banging someones head into the ground. The innocent skittle's boy was likely in the process of committing a felony when he was shot.

Some solid evidence here.

Oh yeah, physical evidence of injuries, eye-witnesses who saw a fight, testimony from participant....yep, not much different than an anonymous tipster.

What do Mike Tyson, your managing to get through life without banging someone's head into the ground (which is considerably softer than concrete) and Skittles have to do with your lack of evidence that Trayvon Martin was committing a felony?Where's the logic?

It was a response to the Kimbo Slice logic. There is plenty of evidence that Trayvon was engaged in assault and battery. Multiple eye-witnesses and injuries. Enough evidence to convict him in a court of law if he were alive.

again...the EMT`s worked on George Zimbecile for around 8 minutes or less, never even bandaged his cuts and he felt no need to go to the hospital that night....oh the horror of that attack must have been more than he could handle, that poor man. Good thing he had that handgun at the ready. its too bad he had that gun because honestly i think treyvon would have taught that idiot a lesson in minding his own business, a good old fashioned beatdown can have that effect sometimes.

I love it when people on message boards talk about things like good old fashioned beatdowns. The anger over things looking more like Zimmerman's account being truthful is mystifying. We all should be about the truth on this, regardless of our political lean. If Zimmerman truly instigated the fight and killed Martin then we all should agree he should be found guilty. That just doesn't seem to be the way the evidence released so far is suggesting. If Zimmerman's story proves to be true, then why wouldn't everyone agree he should be found not guilty and released? Even some of the MSNBC hardliners have abandoned talking about this case in the light of what is coming out and it not agreeing with their agenda.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

The documents also show that a Sanford police investigator, Trekell Perkins, received a phone call from an anonymous woman two days after the shooting who said that Zimmerman had "racist ideologies," and was "fully capable" of instigating a deadly confrontation.

Needless to say this doesn't shock me either. Hopefully some more information will come out about it.

Truly pitiful that anyone would put any weight into an anonymous call in such an emotionally charged case.

No different than the pro-zimms believing all the thug crap about treyvon.

Yea, a police officer at the school, Trayvons own voice, pictures, and video are = to an anonymous call..It's exactly the same.. "No different"...

ya...all spun to look worse than it was by people with an agenda.There is no proof of him referring any mma style fights. The ''stolen jewelry'' was never proven to be stolen.No proof of ever swinging at a bus driver, just goofy tweets .So ya, the same thing buddy.

1) I saw 2 videos where he was refereeing fights2) If the jewelry was his, and not stolen, why didn't he ask for it back?3) No proof that he swung at a bus driver, but more convincing evidence then that you're using to suggest Zimmerman is racist..

4) You forgot to mention:

- The 'Trayvon made' rap music that has since been removed from youtube

- The photos of him posing as a thug. I've seen at least 3 of these..

- The graffiti at school

- the illegal drug use, and drugs at school

- the multiple school suspensions. 3 or 4 within one school year..

I never said Trayvon was a thug, but suggesting all of this ^ is in some way comparable to 1 anonymous callers testament is crazy. You don't know who made that call, and/or what their motivation was. Could have been a friend of the Martin family for all we know.

Link?

So that's the only one you contend?Even if you removed the video's, there is still plenty of evidence pointing to a not so innocent young man..

I went on treyvons face book before it was shut down and i saw no such videos, did you ?

 

[Carolina Hustler]

What new facts have come to light to support zimmer?

What is MSNBC's agenda in this case?

Not much new, the facts have always aligned with Zimmerman's story. I suppose the pictures of Zimmerman's injuries have been released. MSNBC's agenda is similar to Tim's, to promote this idea that institutional racism is still a huge problem and we need big government to swoop in and solve it.

I truly feel sorry for you if you actually believe that.

you don't think the media spins things this way?

 

[Carolina Hustler]

faced misdemeanor charges for besting that idiot.

I think I'd better delete all my responses to Texasfan and busted knuckles

ya, you are the zen master of arguing

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Seriously???? THATS your video proof??? hahahahahahaha.You cant tell one person from the next...nice try.But lets play this out, even if that wasnt just some black high school kid and it really was him, that video doesnt help zimmermans case in the least. If thats the level of fighting that treyvon is accustomed too then thats all the proof one needs to say zimmerman was in no way in fear for his life. Little high school yard fights, not exactly Kimbo Slice lmao.

But George had his nose broken!

It doesn't take Mike Tyson to kill someone by banging their head into the ground. I somehow managed to get through life without banging someones head into the ground. The innocent skittle's boy was likely in the process of committing a felony when he was shot.

Some solid evidence here.

Oh yeah, physical evidence of injuries, eye-witnesses who saw a fight, testimony from participant....yep, not much different than an anonymous tipster.

What do Mike Tyson, your managing to get through life without banging someone's head into the ground (which is considerably softer than concrete) and Skittles have to do with your lack of evidence that Trayvon Martin was committing a felony?Where's the logic?

It was a response to the Kimbo Slice logic. There is plenty of evidence that Trayvon was engaged in assault and battery. Multiple eye-witnesses and injuries. Enough evidence to convict him in a court of law if he were alive.

again...the EMT`s worked on George Zimbecile for around 8 minutes or less, never even bandaged his cuts and he felt no need to go to the hospital that night....oh the horror of that attack must have been more than he could handle, that poor man. Good thing he had that handgun at the ready. its too bad he had that gun because honestly i think treyvon would have taught that idiot a lesson in minding his own business, a good old fashioned beatdown can have that effect sometimes.

How many minutes of attention from the EMT would represent enough treatment? If Martin had struck him two more times, 8 more times, 20 more times, would that be enough? How much larger would the wound on the back of Zimmerman's head need to be to warrant SYG? If Zimmerman allowed his broken nose to be treated at the hospital, would it then be ok?

You can stitch most wounds in 8 mins..

 

[Carolina Hustler]

According to Florida law Martin was not obligated to back down. Regardless, even in a statutorily sane state Martin might have at most faced misdemeanor charges for besting that idiot.

Depends when Martin would have stopped. If he would have done permanent damage to Zimmerman, it would have been a felony. As big of an idiot as Zimmerman might have been, it does not excuse it.

well lets just deal with the facts as we know them. Zimmerman by his own testimony said treyvon had fled and that he was going after him...period. Anything after that is conjecture. You can say treyvon doubled back and followed zimm all you want but we have no proof. Yet we do have proof that zimm was the agressor in the sense that he was following someone who was moving away from zimmerman, not the other ay around.End of argument.

OK, Zimmerman is not a liar when it suits your argument, but when it doesn't suit your argument he is a liar.. Got it..

im just stating the facts as we know them. If zimm was at his truck when the shooting happened then yes it would prove he complied, but he wasnt , he was way around the back of the building .So we dont know if he complying or not, but we do know he followed a person he said was getting away. The whole point was did treyvon have the right to stand his ground. Its all conjecture to say he doubled back on zimm , we dont know. But we do know zimm was the follower to begin with.

Well we all know Zimmerman was a liar. So I'd wager he was actually running to the store rather than following Martin when he said he was following..

 

[Carolina Hustler]

The documents also show that a Sanford police investigator, Trekell Perkins, received a phone call from an anonymous woman two days after the shooting who said that Zimmerman had "racist ideologies," and was "fully capable" of instigating a deadly confrontation.

Needless to say this doesn't shock me either. Hopefully some more information will come out about it.

Truly pitiful that anyone would put any weight into an anonymous call in such an emotionally charged case.

No different than the pro-zimms believing all the thug crap about treyvon.

Yea, a police officer at the school, Trayvons own voice, pictures, and video are = to an anonymous call..It's exactly the same.. "No different"...

ya...all spun to look worse than it was by people with an agenda.There is no proof of him referring any mma style fights. The ''stolen jewelry'' was never proven to be stolen.No proof of ever swinging at a bus driver, just goofy tweets .So ya, the same thing buddy.

1) I saw 2 videos where he was refereeing fights2) If the jewelry was his, and not stolen, why didn't he ask for it back?3) No proof that he swung at a bus driver, but more convincing evidence then that you're using to suggest Zimmerman is racist..

4) You forgot to mention:

- The 'Trayvon made' rap music that has since been removed from youtube

- The photos of him posing as a thug. I've seen at least 3 of these..

- The graffiti at school

- the illegal drug use, and drugs at school

- the multiple school suspensions. 3 or 4 within one school year..

I never said Trayvon was a thug, but suggesting all of this ^ is in some way comparable to 1 anonymous callers testament is crazy. You don't know who made that call, and/or what their motivation was. Could have been a friend of the Martin family for all we know.

Link?

So that's the only one you contend?Even if you removed the video's, there is still plenty of evidence pointing to a not so innocent young man..

I went on treyvons face book before it was shut down and i saw no such videos, did you ?

No, I didn't see those videos on his face book account either.. But that's probably because they were posted on his youtube account..

 

[Christo]

According to Florida law Martin was not obligated to back down. Regardless, even in a statutorily sane state Martin might have at most faced misdemeanor charges for besting that idiot.

Depends when Martin would have stopped. If he would have done permanent damage to Zimmerman, it would have been a felony. As big of an idiot as Zimmerman might have been, it does not excuse it.

well lets just deal with the facts as we know them. Zimmerman by his own testimony said treyvon had fled and that he was going after him...period. Anything after that is conjecture. You can say treyvon doubled back and followed zimm all you want but we have no proof. Yet we do have proof that zimm was the agressor in the sense that he was following someone who was moving away from zimmerman, not the other ay around.End of argument.

OK, Zimmerman is not a liar when it suits your argument, but when it doesn't suit your argument he is a liar.. Got it..

im just stating the facts as we know them. If zimm was at his truck when the shooting happened then yes it would prove he complied, but he wasnt , he was way around the back of the building .So we dont know if he complying or not, but we do know he followed a person he said was getting away. The whole point was did treyvon have the right to stand his ground. Its all conjecture to say he doubled back on zimm , we dont know. But we do know zimm was the follower to begin with.

Who followed who is irrelevant for SYG.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

According to Florida law Martin was not obligated to back down. Regardless, even in a statutorily sane state Martin might have at most faced misdemeanor charges for besting that idiot.

Depends when Martin would have stopped. If he would have done permanent damage to Zimmerman, it would have been a felony. As big of an idiot as Zimmerman might have been, it does not excuse it.

well lets just deal with the facts as we know them. Zimmerman by his own testimony said treyvon had fled and that he was going after him...period. Anything after that is conjecture. You can say treyvon doubled back and followed zimm all you want but we have no proof. Yet we do have proof that zimm was the agressor in the sense that he was following someone who was moving away from zimmerman, not the other ay around.End of argument.

OK, Zimmerman is not a liar when it suits your argument, but when it doesn't suit your argument he is a liar.. Got it..

im just stating the facts as we know them. If zimm was at his truck when the shooting happened then yes it would prove he complied, but he wasnt , he was way around the back of the building .So we dont know if he complying or not, but we do know he followed a person he said was getting away. The whole point was did treyvon have the right to stand his ground. Its all conjecture to say he doubled back on zimm , we dont know. But we do know zimm was the follower to begin with.

Who followed who is irrelevant for SYG.

That's the only reason its irrelevant for. To the entire story its pertinent.

 

[Christo]

According to Florida law Martin was not obligated to back down. Regardless, even in a statutorily sane state Martin might have at most faced misdemeanor charges for besting that idiot.

Depends when Martin would have stopped. If he would have done permanent damage to Zimmerman, it would have been a felony. As big of an idiot as Zimmerman might have been, it does not excuse it.

well lets just deal with the facts as we know them. Zimmerman by his own testimony said treyvon had fled and that he was going after him...period. Anything after that is conjecture. You can say treyvon doubled back and followed zimm all you want but we have no proof. Yet we do have proof that zimm was the agressor in the sense that he was following someone who was moving away from zimmerman, not the other ay around.End of argument.

OK, Zimmerman is not a liar when it suits your argument, but when it doesn't suit your argument he is a liar.. Got it..

im just stating the facts as we know them. If zimm was at his truck when the shooting happened then yes it would prove he complied, but he wasnt , he was way around the back of the building .So we dont know if he complying or not, but we do know he followed a person he said was getting away. The whole point was did treyvon have the right to stand his ground. Its all conjecture to say he doubled back on zimm , we dont know. But we do know zimm was the follower to begin with.

Who followed who is irrelevant for SYG.

That's the only reason its irrelevant for. To the entire story its pertinent.

So?

 

[BigSteelThrill]

According to Florida law Martin was not obligated to back down. Regardless, even in a statutorily sane state Martin might have at most faced misdemeanor charges for besting that idiot.

Depends when Martin would have stopped. If he would have done permanent damage to Zimmerman, it would have been a felony. As big of an idiot as Zimmerman might have been, it does not excuse it.

well lets just deal with the facts as we know them. Zimmerman by his own testimony said treyvon had fled and that he was going after him...period. Anything after that is conjecture. You can say treyvon doubled back and followed zimm all you want but we have no proof. Yet we do have proof that zimm was the agressor in the sense that he was following someone who was moving away from zimmerman, not the other ay around.End of argument.

OK, Zimmerman is not a liar when it suits your argument, but when it doesn't suit your argument he is a liar.. Got it..

im just stating the facts as we know them. If zimm was at his truck when the shooting happened then yes it would prove he complied, but he wasnt , he was way around the back of the building .So we dont know if he complying or not, but we do know he followed a person he said was getting away. The whole point was did treyvon have the right to stand his ground. Its all conjecture to say he doubled back on zimm , we dont know. But we do know zimm was the follower to begin with.

Who followed who is irrelevant for SYG.

That's the only reason its irrelevant for. To the entire story its pertinent.

So?

So its pertinent to the case.

 

[Christo]

According to Florida law Martin was not obligated to back down. Regardless, even in a statutorily sane state Martin might have at most faced misdemeanor charges for besting that idiot.

Depends when Martin would have stopped. If he would have done permanent damage to Zimmerman, it would have been a felony. As big of an idiot as Zimmerman might have been, it does not excuse it.

well lets just deal with the facts as we know them. Zimmerman by his own testimony said treyvon had fled and that he was going after him...period. Anything after that is conjecture. You can say treyvon doubled back and followed zimm all you want but we have no proof. Yet we do have proof that zimm was the agressor in the sense that he was following someone who was moving away from zimmerman, not the other ay around.End of argument.

OK, Zimmerman is not a liar when it suits your argument, but when it doesn't suit your argument he is a liar.. Got it..

im just stating the facts as we know them. If zimm was at his truck when the shooting happened then yes it would prove he complied, but he wasnt , he was way around the back of the building .So we dont know if he complying or not, but we do know he followed a person he said was getting away. The whole point was did treyvon have the right to stand his ground. Its all conjecture to say he doubled back on zimm , we dont know. But we do know zimm was the follower to begin with.

Who followed who is irrelevant for SYG.

That's the only reason its irrelevant for. To the entire story its pertinent.

So?

So its pertinent to the case.

Again, so?

 

[timschochet]

MSNBC's agenda is similar to Tim's, to promote this idea that institutional racism is still a huge problem and we need big government to swoop in and solve it.

Can't speak for MSNBC (though I suspect you're quite wrong about them) but this is completely wrong when it comes to me. While I do believe that institutionalized racism is a huge problem, I certainly don't think we need "big government" to swoop in and solve it. That is not now and has never been my position. My views on institutionalized racism do probably affect my feelings about this case, but I have tried to be fair in my comments about it.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

MSNBC's agenda is similar to Tim's, to promote this idea that institutional racism is still a huge problem and we need big government to swoop in and solve it.

Can't speak for MSNBC (though I suspect you're quite wrong about them) but this is completely wrong when it comes to me. While I do believe that institutionalized racism is a huge problem, I certainly don't think we need "big government" to swoop in and solve it. That is not now and has never been my position. My views on institutionalized racism do probably affect my feelings about this case, but I have tried to be fair in my comments about it.

 

[timschochet]

Excuse me? I did no such thing. I only posted a part of a report made public as it pretains to this case.Tim made reference to it not me. You act like those videos have treyvon fighting or something, and its next to impossible to see if hes is actually even in the crowd watching.Its as bogus as an anonymous call to the police but someone found it significant to add it to the investigation.

I did make reference to it, but I want to clarify that because it has been continually misconstrued:I never wrote that the anonymous phone call was proof of Zimmerman's racist attitudes. What I wrote was that if the phone call was accurate, it wouldn't surprise me, because I intuitively believe that George Zimmerman is a racist. I also wrote that I had no actual proof to support this belief, and that even if he is a racist, it's not really pertinent to the case, which ultimately revolves around whether or not Zimmerman shot Martin in self-defense or in cold blood.

 

[timschochet]

the facts have always aligned with Zimmerman's story.

This is certainly not true either. First off, we still don't know, officially, what Zimmerman's story is, but even assuming his story will match what his brother and father told the media, it's still not true. What is true, at this point, is that there is not enough evidence made available to the public, yet, which proves Zimmerman's guilt beyond reasonable doubt. I say yet because that evidence may still be out there, and we (the public) may learn of it before trial or at trial. Or the incriminating evidence which we are already aware of (the witness who supposedly saw Zimmerman on top of Martin, for instance) will be strengthened enough as to confirm his guilt. With regard to this witness I just mentioned: if the jury believes this witness when she testifies that Zimmerman was the one on top, then Zimmerman will be convicted of murder, because none of the other evidence is important compared to this. If Zimmerman was on top, he could not have been in fear for his life. To me, this is the ONLY kind of evidence which would convict Zimmerman: proof that he was not in fear for his life. Otherwise, Zimmerman should be exonerated.

 

[timschochet]

The anger over things looking more like Zimmerman's account being truthful is mystifying. We all should be about the truth on this, regardless of our political lean. If Zimmerman truly instigated the fight and killed Martin then we all should agree he should be found guilty. That just doesn't seem to be the way the evidence released so far is suggesting. If Zimmerman's story proves to be true, then why wouldn't everyone agree he should be found not guilty and released?

I Unfortunately, not everyone here believes this.

 

[Chaos Commish]

At 2:07 minutes into his call to the police, Zimmerman says, "he's running.". At 2:37 minutes, Zimmerman tells the dispatcher, "he ran." The sound of an "open door" chime, a change in Zimmerman's voice and the sound of wind indicate that Zimmerman has left his vehicle, prompting the dispatcher to ask if Zimmerman is following Martin. When Zimmerman confirms that he is, the dispatcher says, "We don't need you to do that." Zimmerman says "OK".

No is disputing that Zimmerman was following him initially. The dispute is whether or not Zimmerman was on his way back to his truck when the altercation occurred. Again - neither you nor I can confirm what happened there (did Zimmerman continue following him or did he start heading back to his truck).

Still being a geek for the timeline, I hate the way you worded that fist paragraph. It sounds like 30 seconds pass after Trayvon ran to George getting out of his car. That is not what happened. At 2:07 he says Trayvon is running and immediately you hear George shuffling about in his car and at 2:11 you hear the door close and George pursuing. Also noteworthy (isuppose) is George was never advised not to pursue before pursuing. The media reports this erroneously every single time. He was twice advised to continue reporting Trayvon's activity. It's a fair argument to claim George was following dispatch instructions by initially following Trayvon. How else could he continue to report the "suspicious late teen on drugs or something"? 10/11 seconds into the pursuit the dispatch asks if he is following. He confirms and is informed following is not needed. George says "okay" immediately but based on the sounds of the tape, George continues his pursuit for a few more seconds before the exasperated "He ran" statement. At that point it seems clear he's lost Tray. Did he continue looking around for him at a slower pace? No more wind and running? Maybe. Did he stop following and seek an address on his way back to his truck? Maybe. Did he do something else? Maybe.

 

[Neofight]

According to Florida law Martin was not obligated to back down. Regardless, even in a statutorily sane state Martin might have at most faced misdemeanor charges for besting that idiot.

Depends when Martin would have stopped. If he would have done permanent damage to Zimmerman, it would have been a felony. As big of an idiot as Zimmerman might have been, it does not excuse it.

well lets just deal with the facts as we know them. Zimmerman by his own testimony said treyvon had fled and that he was going after him...period. Anything after that is conjecture. You can say treyvon doubled back and followed zimm all you want but we have no proof. Yet we do have proof that zimm was the agressor in the sense that he was following someone who was moving away from zimmerman, not the other ay around.End of argument.

Why did you stop with telling all the facts? Based on the call with the police dispatcher, the following was said (you already know this but it didn't fit with your point):At 2:07 minutes into his call to the police, Zimmerman says, "he's running.". At 2:37 minutes, Zimmerman tells the dispatcher, "he ran." The sound of an "open door" chime, a change in Zimmerman's voice and the sound of wind indicate that Zimmerman has left his vehicle, prompting the dispatcher to ask if Zimmerman is following Martin. When Zimmerman confirms that he is, the dispatcher says, "We don't need you to do that."[111] Zimmerman says "OK".

Based on the 'facts' - Zimmerman stopped his pursuit of Martin when instructed. Anything after THAT is conjecture. You can say Zimmerman continued to follow Martin but we have no proof.

I'll just let Christo take care of this...Wait, you already answered his question yourself in the very next few sentences. Well done.

He is right, you have no proof that Zimmerman continued to pursue, follow, look for Trayvon after the dispatcher made the statement.

At least he realized the folly of pointing this out; he invalidates his "fact" by doing so.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

In recent days, the public has seen a great deal of the evidence against George Zimmerman, including Trayvon Martin's autopsy records, crime-scene photos, interview recordings and police reports. But his lawyer says there's still a lot we haven't seen.

When the mountain of evidence was released earlier this month, defense attorney Mark O'Mara issued a statement saying prosecutors have turned over only "about half" of the evidence gathered so far in the second-degree-murder case against Zimmerman.

So what's left? Documents filed with the court by both the state and defense seeking to keep certain records under seal offer a peek behind the curtain and preview potentially important evidence.

But based on what what's out there now, legal experts say it's unlikely there's a bombshell waiting.

"I think that we have seen the best the state has to offer to this point," said Bill Sheaffer, an Orlando defense attorney and WFTV-Channel 9 legal analyst.

Statements could challenge credibility

When prosecutors released recordings of interviews with witnesses in the case, the voice of the man who fired the fatal shot was notably absent. Zimmerman has given multiple statements to authorities. None has been released.

Special Prosecutor Angela Corey's office withheld those records, arguing that they fall under a statutory exemption for confessions. Zimmerman admits to shooting the unarmed 17-year-old but claims he fired in self-defense.

Those statements are likely the most important evidence the public hasn't seen, Sheaffer said.

"The physical evidence in the case seems to support his story of what happened," Sheaffer said. "That makes the statements of George Zimmerman all the more important."

In a motion asking Judge Kenneth Lester to seal some evidence in the case, prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda writes Zimmerman's statements "are contradictory, and are inconsistent with the physical evidence and statements of witnesses."

Michael Grieco, a Miami defense attorney and former Miami-Dade prosecutor, said Zimmerman's statements could give the state "a tool to attack his credibility" and weaken his self-defense claim.

Prosecutors, Grieco and Sheaffer agree, must undermine that claim to get a conviction.

"Sometimes you say things to the police that you think are helping you, but in reality, they're not," Grieco said.

One of the few known accounts to contradict Zimmerman's version of events is that of a South Florida girl who says a frightened Trayvon was talking to her on the phone as a man stalked and confronted him on the night of the shooting.

Prosecutors have the girl's phone records, as well as Zimmerman's and Trayvon's, but those have not been released. If records confirm the call took place as she described, it would lend credibility to the state.

"However, if that phone record comes back and says that she was not on the phone with him, that is huge for the defense," says Lyle Mazin, an Orlando defense attorney. "If [the prosecution] says she was on the phone, prove it."

Zimmerman's calls could also provide insight, Sheaffer said: "We don't know who — and when — he called right after the fight occurred."

Also withheld from the evidence released so far were autopsy photos. Lawyers say they could help show the distance and relative position of the gun to Trayvon's body.

"That old adage 'a picture is worth a thousand words' is true," Sheaffer said.

Photos of Zimmerman, his head bloodied and cut, were among the most dramatic evidence released so far. However — though some information has leaked to the media — medical records and paramedic reports have not been released by the state.It's widely understood, Sheaffer said, that head wounds tend to produce "a lot of blood." Jurors, he said, "want to hear it in medical terms and see what the extent of the injuries are."

Some may have 'no relevance'

The charge Zimmerman faces requires the state to demonstrate a "depraved mind" acting in a manner "regardless of human life." It's a high burden, attorneys say, and one not well supported by the known evidence.

"It's a tragic incident that this young man died, but they have to be able to prove [the charge]," Mazin said.

Grieco said it's possible the state hopes to meet that burden with other evidence showing Zimmerman's frustration over recent burglaries in his community and his dissatisfaction with local law enforcement.

In his call to police on the night of the shooting, Zimmerman said of Trayvon, "these #######s always get away." A year earlier, he blasted the Sanford Police Department as unprofessional at a community forum after going on a ride-along.

As a prosecutor, "I would use these [examples] to paint a picture of a very angry man," Grieco said. "A wannabe cop."

It's also likely that much of the evidence we haven't seen is of little or no importance to the case.

For example, in a recent court filing, O'Mara said it includes about 1,000 emails to police from people commenting on the case, some of which "include racially charged comments."

In the leadup to the Casey Anthony murder trial, thousands of documents were exchanged by the state and the defense, many of which never came up again.

"The state is obligated to give the defense everything," Sheaffer said. "What we may see are a lot of bits of information that have no relevance or no admissibility at trial."

 

[timschochet]

If Zimmerman made contradictory statements, that could be very problematic for him, obviously.

Even so, I can see only two ways that the prosecution wins this case:

1. There is a credible and convincing witness which states, unequivocally, that Zimmerman was on top of Martin at the time of the shooting. Such a witness would make all other evidence that might exonerate Zimmerman completely irrelevant.

2. When Zimmerman is cross-examined on the stand, he is found by the jury to be a liar about what happened.

Short of either of these, any reasonable person would, I believe, have to exonerate Zimmerman.

 

[Witz]

If Zimmerman made contradictory statements, that could be very problematic for him, obviously.

Even so, I can see only two ways that the prosecution wins this case:

1. There is a credible and convincing witness which states, unequivocally, that Zimmerman was on top of Martin at the time of the shooting. Such a witness would make all other evidence that might exonerate Zimmerman completely irrelevant.

2. When Zimmerman is cross-examined on the stand, he is found by the jury to be a liar about what happened.

Short of either of these, any reasonable person would, I believe, have to exonerate Zimmerman.

Tim - are you still speaking about witness 12? The only witness (witness 6) that hasn't changed their story on who they saw on who stated that Martin was on Zimmerman. This is what they said initially and what they said when questioned again.

Let's talk about witness 12:

But in another interview with investigators six days later, the paper reported, she was sure: It was Zimmerman on top.

"I know after seeing the TV of what's happening, comparing their sizes, I think Zimmerman was definitely on top because of his size," the woman, "Witness 12," said.

Now earlier I wrote that I wanted to know the actual sizes of Zimmerman and Martin, and I was told it doesn't make any difference. Well, it might make a difference. I'd sure like to know. As Christo points out, this woman could be referring to the various news reports which had Zimmerman at 250 lbs- he obviously doesn't weigh that much.

BUT- supposing there IS a significant weight difference and Zimmerman weighs more than Martin, and supposing this woman testifies in court that she is "definitely certain" that Zimmerman was the one on top- and supposing the jury believes her and not Zimmerman- if all this happens then Zimmerman is going to be convicted. Because it really doesn't matter if Zimmerman has injuries or even how the fight started at that point. If Zimmerman was on top that would indicate to most reasonable people that he was in control of the situation, and if he was in control, he would not have feared for his life. Therefore the killing of Martin becomes not self-defense, but murder.

So this woman's testimony is absoututely crucial, IMO.

I'm not so sure about that with regards to witness 12. In their initial statement, they noted they saw two people on the ground but didn't know who was on top and only later said it was Zimmerman due to the size based on what they saw on tv (not that they clearly saw Zimmerman as the one being on top - their 'view' was based on the two individuals size). Witness 6 on the other hand, hasn't changed their story at all - they have always maintained that Martin was on top of Zimmerman.

 

[cstu]

"Sometimes you say things to the police that you think are helping you, but in reality, they're not," Grieco said.

You have the right to remain silent - use it.