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:greatposting:Well Tim, I'd say the evidence that Martin put a beat down on Zimmerman after being approached greatly outweighs your theory that Zimmerman racially profiled Martin, reported him to the cops so that he could then proceeded to chase him down so he could murder him.Occam's Razor
Not really. To me the evidence that Zimmerman racially profiled Martin is based on the phone call. That is my interpretation; feel free to disagree. But at least there is evidence there beyond somebody's word about what happened.As far as chasing Martin down so that he could murder him, I never wrote that and I don't believe anybody thinks that. Most of us who believe that Zimmerman committed a murder here think he did so on the spur of the moment in reaction to a fight which he was probably losing. The key difference between you and I is that you believe he was in fear of his life, while I don't think that's very probable. It's a possibility, and that possibility would force me to acquit him, but not probable. But none of this goes to my point: in refuting Busted Knuckles and others, you take Zimmerman's story about what happened and act like it's the objective truth. Only one other poster in this thread does that on a regular basis, and that's Carolina Hustler, which is why you remind me of him. As for your cheering squad, don't get too excited. Practically the only time Identikit posts is to approve somebody else putting me down.:greatposting:Well Tim, I'd say the evidence that Martin put a beat down on Zimmerman after being approached greatly outweighs your theory that Zimmerman racially profiled Martin, reported him to the cops so that he could then proceeded to chase him down so he could murder him.Occam's Razor
When you scream for help, you do so in the loudest voice possible. When you tell someone you are going to kill them and they are two foot away, your 'scream' is not so loud. Not exactly a smoking gun.
Are you seriously proffering this forth? Wow, you guys really do just believe whatever comes out of Zimm's mouth, regardless of logic or anything else.Put your hand over your mouth and scream. Now scream without it there. Which is louder?
That has nothing to do with my point.
The murder part is the only thing OR would reasonably limit in your scenario. The rest fits even Zboys own account of the situation.'Jojo the circus boy said:Well Tim, I'd say the evidence that Martin put a beat down on Zimmerman after being approached greatly outweighs your theory that Zimmerman racially profiled Martin, reported him to the cops so that he could then proceeded to chase him down so he could murder him.Occam's Razor'timschochet said:
'jon_mx said:
Martin was cool as a cucumber and was doing his Clint Eastwood impersonation. No excitement in his part at all, just calm cool collected controlled vocalizations
'jon_mx said:
your point. I love the pro Z side. Reminds me if the Iraqi minister saying the infidel was turned away while Baghdad was smoking behind him. Assumptions are ok when made for Z but absurd canards when made against him.
the ironic thing is zimm has already been caught in lie after lie'Clifford said:
Yes, but the pro-Martin blinders are firmly on. Seriously, you use the same voice to talk to someone 2 foot away as you do someone who is a 100 foot away? Whatever, this thread has pure buffoonery. As bad as Carolina was biased, there is more extreme bias on the pro-Martin side.
ummm...that would be because an innocent unarmed teen was shot to death for being in the right place at the wrong time
I have a friend that ended up with major brain damage. It doesn't always work out so well for everybody.Have you never been in a fistfight? People tend to live through them...I can play that game too: In your world, Zimmerman would be dead and Martin would be spending the rest of his living days in jail for murder.No, in my world anyone caught gunning down an unarmed kid because they started #### they couldn't handle would see a minimum of 20 years in prison. It would be called the "don't start #### if you are too big of a ##### to handle it without shooting someone" law.Seems like you are the only one having trouble with what I am saying here.No we don't live in the wild west, a world ruled by Wyatt Earps, there are laws regarding assault and people have the right to carry a firearm and defend oneself when attacked. If you had your way we would live in a world ruled by children that are allowed to express themselves with their anger and fists, which you consider having "the balls to act like a man."
Innocent aside from an assault. The sugar coating from Martin crowd is over the top.
Ahhh, the classic but never old of little lady mx getting backed in a corner and using the old "but, but, but... your side does it WORSE!!!!". Pathetic.
Or self defense...
You are being too literal, shocking.His mouth wasn't covered 100% of the time.When you tell someone you are going to kill them you don't scream it so everyone in the neighborhood (which you do not live) can hear you.'Clifford said:
I believe the basis for why Zimmerman followed Martin. There had been break-ins in his gated community, he sees someone he does not recognize, someone who is avoiding/ignoring him after speaking to him and therefore found him suspicious so he called the cops like he had done a number of times before for other suspicious people in his gated community. You can argue all you want about what transpired after he called the police, but unless you think he self-inflicted those wounds its pretty clear that Martin beat on Zimmerman. I would assume Martin was on top of Zimmerman giving it to him pretty good. I find it hard to believe Zimmerman pinned Martin down, allowed Martin to mess him up as bad as he looked in the photos while being underneath Zimmerman, and then Zimmerman taking out his gun while still on top of him and shooting him. So if you can believe Martin was on top of Zimmerman punching him is it really that much of a stretch to think he was pounding his head into the sidewalk to support the cuts on the back of his head. When I say pound his head into the sidewalk, he could have his hands on Zimmermans shirt or sweatshirt and push his body into the ground causing his head to go back and slam against the sidewalk. If you find all this believable, there's a chance he also threatened Zimmerman's life. Add all this up, even if you don't believe Martin threatened him and you still have plenty of grounds to get shot.What exactly about the phone call do you think is racial profiling, I certainly hope you are not going off of the edited and altered version put together by CBS?Not really. To me the evidence that Zimmerman racially profiled Martin is based on the phone call. That is my interpretation; feel free to disagree. But at least there is evidence there beyond somebody's word about what happened.As far as chasing Martin down so that he could murder him, I never wrote that and I don't believe anybody thinks that. Most of us who believe that Zimmerman committed a murder here think he did so on the spur of the moment in reaction to a fight which he was probably losing. The key difference between you and I is that you believe he was in fear of his life, while I don't think that's very probable. It's a possibility, and that possibility would force me to acquit him, but not probable. But none of this goes to my point: in refuting Busted Knuckles and others, you take Zimmerman's story about what happened and act like it's the objective truth. Only one other poster in this thread does that on a regular basis, and that's Carolina Hustler, which is why you remind me of him. As for your cheering squad, don't get too excited. Practically the only time Identikit posts is to approve somebody else putting me down.:greatposting:'Jojo the circus boy said:Well Tim, I'd say the evidence that Martin put a beat down on Zimmerman after being approached greatly outweighs your theory that Zimmerman racially profiled Martin, reported him to the cops so that he could then proceeded to chase him down so he could murder him.Occam's Razor'timschochet said:
Yeah, everyone's always thinking rationally whilst bashing some poor, innocent guy's head into the ground so savagely that he got blood on his lip. Love all the massive hypocrites that denounce assumptions but then come up with these hard rules of human behavior under stress. You and Jonnay are making petting zoo turtles look like brain surgeons. Please continue, it's the hardest I've laughed in awhile.
Your little hypothetical isn't even supported by Zimmerman's own story.I believe the basis for why Zimmerman followed Martin. There had been break-ins in his gated community, he sees someone he does not recognize, someone who is avoiding/ignoring him after speaking to him and therefore found him suspicious so he called the cops like he had done a number of times before for other suspicious people in his gated community. You can argue all you want about what transpired after he called the police, but unless you think he self-inflicted those wounds its pretty clear that Martin beat on Zimmerman. I would assume Martin was on top of Zimmerman giving it to him pretty good. I find it hard to believe Zimmerman pinned Martin down, allowed Martin to mess him up as bad as he looked in the photos while being underneath Zimmerman, and then Zimmerman taking out his gun while still on top of him and shooting him. So if you can believe Martin was on top of Zimmerman punching him is it really that much of a stretch to think he was pounding his head into the sidewalk to support the cuts on the back of his head. When I say pound his head into the sidewalk, he could have his hands on Zimmermans shirt or sweatshirt and push his body into the ground causing his head to go back and slam against the sidewalk. If you find all this believable, there's a chance he also threatened Zimmerman's life. Add all this up, even if you don't believe Martin threatened him and you still have plenty of grounds to get shot.What exactly about the phone call do you think is racial profiling, I certainly hope you are not going off of the edited and altered version put together by CBS?Not really. To me the evidence that Zimmerman racially profiled Martin is based on the phone call. That is my interpretation; feel free to disagree. But at least there is evidence there beyond somebody's word about what happened.As far as chasing Martin down so that he could murder him, I never wrote that and I don't believe anybody thinks that. Most of us who believe that Zimmerman committed a murder here think he did so on the spur of the moment in reaction to a fight which he was probably losing. The key difference between you and I is that you believe he was in fear of his life, while I don't think that's very probable. It's a possibility, and that possibility would force me to acquit him, but not probable. But none of this goes to my point: in refuting Busted Knuckles and others, you take Zimmerman's story about what happened and act like it's the objective truth. Only one other poster in this thread does that on a regular basis, and that's Carolina Hustler, which is why you remind me of him. As for your cheering squad, don't get too excited. Practically the only time Identikit posts is to approve somebody else putting me down.:greatposting:'Jojo the circus boy said:Well Tim, I'd say the evidence that Martin put a beat down on Zimmerman after being approached greatly outweighs your theory that Zimmerman racially profiled Martin, reported him to the cops so that he could then proceeded to chase him down so he could murder him.Occam's Razor'timschochet said:
Love the idea that Martin avoidedZ trying to talk to him, must've missed that part of his story. Or the calling the police over other suspicious people, like kids playing in the street. plenty of grounds to get shot?! What a pig. Can't wait for people like you leaving the gene pool. Good god, lose a fight equals grounds for shooting? WTF is wrong with you people?!Link to assault?? From everything I have read that Zimmerman was the one who intiated this sad story. He is the one who intially followed Martin, he is the one who did not listen to the 911 operator to stand down. So if Martin felt threatened then it is not an assult it is self defense. (unless that can only apply to Zimmerman?)We can argue if Zimmerman can or should be able to claim self defense as a result of his intial actions.
Don't forget about not identifying himself when confronted. But hey, shooting an unarmed kid bevause of a blloody nose is ok, being afraid of a stalker and defending yourself from him is asking to get killed. What a bunch of brain dead ignorami are in here blindly defending this cherub of justice.
Everything you state Zimmerman did are legal. The evidence strongly indicates Martin had Zimmerman pinned to the ground and was punching him, that is an assault. Who started the fight is speculation and debatable. The most likely scenario is Zimmerman provoked it by following Martin, but Martin initiated the physical violence. Zimmerman may be dumb, but he is not so stupid to initiate a physical fight when he is armed.
I know, pretty ####### crazy. We all know Zimmerman is a racist ******* wannabe mall-cop who wants to hunt down and kill black children, while Trevon was the innocent model child who never did anything wrong and would certainly never start a fight.
FINALLY you get itI know, pretty ####### crazy. We all know Zimmerman is a racist ******* wannabe mall-cop who wants to hunt down and kill black children, while Trevon was the innocent model child who never did anything wrong and would certainly never start a fight.
Going by your logic Martin was threatened by Zimmerman and was defending himself. Unless you are saying that you cannot use force to defend yourself which then would also apply to Zimmerman.
CNN disagrees with your hypothetical claim.http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/20/us/florida-zimmerman-timeline/index.htmlCarry on being ignorant.Your little hypothetical isn't even supported by Zimmerman's own story.I believe the basis for why Zimmerman followed Martin. There had been break-ins in his gated community, he sees someone he does not recognize, someone who is avoiding/ignoring him after speaking to him and therefore found him suspicious so he called the cops like he had done a number of times before for other suspicious people in his gated community. You can argue all you want about what transpired after he called the police, but unless you think he self-inflicted those wounds its pretty clear that Martin beat on Zimmerman. I would assume Martin was on top of Zimmerman giving it to him pretty good. I find it hard to believe Zimmerman pinned Martin down, allowed Martin to mess him up as bad as he looked in the photos while being underneath Zimmerman, and then Zimmerman taking out his gun while still on top of him and shooting him. So if you can believe Martin was on top of Zimmerman punching him is it really that much of a stretch to think he was pounding his head into the sidewalk to support the cuts on the back of his head. When I say pound his head into the sidewalk, he could have his hands on Zimmermans shirt or sweatshirt and push his body into the ground causing his head to go back and slam against the sidewalk. If you find all this believable, there's a chance he also threatened Zimmerman's life. Add all this up, even if you don't believe Martin threatened him and you still have plenty of grounds to get shot.What exactly about the phone call do you think is racial profiling, I certainly hope you are not going off of the edited and altered version put together by CBS?Not really. To me the evidence that Zimmerman racially profiled Martin is based on the phone call. That is my interpretation; feel free to disagree. But at least there is evidence there beyond somebody's word about what happened.As far as chasing Martin down so that he could murder him, I never wrote that and I don't believe anybody thinks that. Most of us who believe that Zimmerman committed a murder here think he did so on the spur of the moment in reaction to a fight which he was probably losing. The key difference between you and I is that you believe he was in fear of his life, while I don't think that's very probable. It's a possibility, and that possibility would force me to acquit him, but not probable. But none of this goes to my point: in refuting Busted Knuckles and others, you take Zimmerman's story about what happened and act like it's the objective truth. Only one other poster in this thread does that on a regular basis, and that's Carolina Hustler, which is why you remind me of him. As for your cheering squad, don't get too excited. Practically the only time Identikit posts is to approve somebody else putting me down.:greatposting:Well Tim, I'd say the evidence that Martin put a beat down on Zimmerman after being approached greatly outweighs your theory that Zimmerman racially profiled Martin, reported him to the cops so that he could then proceeded to chase him down so he could murder him.Occam's Razor
Last argument was whether someone who was getting a beatdown would scream "Help" louder than the guy giving the beatdown screaming "I'm going to kill you" to the guy getting the beatdown. Pretty interesting how certain people here can't discern why there would be a difference in volume.
Why are you ignoring Zimmerman's account that Martin was covering his mouth with his hand? Why do you not believe that a hand over the mouth affects the audible volume of someone's voice? You talk about blinders and bias and here you are basically ignoring Zimmerman's testimony and physics.I know, pretty ####### crazy. We all know Zimmerman is a racist ******* wannabe mall-cop who wants to hunt down and kill black children, while Trevon was the innocent model child who never did anything wrong and would certainly never start a fight.
Why is this scenario more likely than Zimmerman initiating the physical violence?
When two people are struggling there's a real good chance that Martin did not have his hand over his mouth the entire time, have you tried looking at it from that perspective? Or here's a genius idea, after Zimmerman screamed the first couple of times this gave Martin reason to put his hand over his mouth in the first place?
Explain the situation where Zimmerman would start beating on a guy that he just called the cops about? Don't those two actions contradict each other? Wouldn't you not call the cops if you were intent in starting a fight?
link?Here are the first two I came across:
Orlando Sentinel
Let's not start fabricating evidence to support your claim.
Fights are initiated by random people all the time for absolutely no reason, however that doesn't mean whoever threw the first punch or grabbed the other persons arm or any other physical action is justified as some in here are trying to do. Throwing a punch after getting punched or grabbed or shoved is self defense. Throwing a punch because someone is following you or using "verbal attacks" is assault, no matter how incensed or otherwise justified you might think you are. I joke about "preemptive self defense" all the time but it isn't a real thing.
This is a very true statement.Schlzm
Serino was the arresting officer at the scene. I was talking about interviews he gave afterward.
Fixed that up a bit for you so it makes sense. Also I think if Zimmerman was going to attempt to detain Martin it's more likely he would have drawn his weapon instead of initiating a physical altercation. Either party could have initiated physical contact and neither is more or less likely to have acted out of anger against the other based only on the actual facts available.Schlzm
The post was sarcasm. But unfortunately, my characterization of the obnoxiously ignorant positions taken by the pro-Martin folks did not exaggerate their position so the sarcasm was lost.'Clifford said:Why are you ignoring Zimmerman's account that Martin was covering his mouth with his hand? Why do you not believe that a hand over the mouth affects the audible volume of someone's voice? You talk about blinders and bias and here you are basically ignoring Zimmerman's testimony and physics.I know, pretty ####### crazy. We all know Zimmerman is a racist ******* wannabe mall-cop who wants to hunt down and kill black children, while Trevon was the innocent model child who never did anything wrong and would certainly never start a fight.
OK, I'm confused about this point- actually I've been confused all along, because people are saying different things:1. If the law says that, in order to acquit, I have to be reasonably convinced that Zimmerman acted in self-defense, then I vote him guilty, because there's no way he can ever prove that, and I think he's a liar.
