Florida boy killed by Neighborhood Watch (2 Viewers)

[Carolina Hustler]

I think this is what it boils down to at this point. If he shot Martin because he was getting his ### kicked, I think that's manslaughter. If Martin was going for Z's gun, then that's self-defense.

Zimmerman is going to have to take the stand to make that clear to the jury, imo.

Not sure that is manslaughter if Z could still show he shot out of fear of his life. Need a lawyer familiar with FL law to opine.

It would be Zimmerman's actions leading up to the incident, there again that would lead to a manslaughter conviction.. I think they can charge him for being wreck-less, searching someone out with a gun in the middle of the night..

 

[pittstownkiller]

HLN is shocked....even they are backtracking on their Zimmerman is losing this thing.

They don't understand why the prosecution would call this witness.

Obviously they are trying to get Zimmerman elected Mayor.

 

[timschochet]

Question: If I'm the judge, I'm thinking to myself, "OK, reasonable doubt has clearly been established here." Can the judge stop the trial at this point?

Or am I overreacting here? I've been trying to watch this as objectively as possible (despite my own strongly subjective bias) and it seems to me as if this witness has provided a reasonable doubt that will be impossible for the prosecution to eliminate. Does anyone disagree with this? If so, please explain.

You are the most fickle easily convinced person I have ever seen here.

Facts change my mind. Good arguments change my mind. If that makes me fickle, so be it.

We have learned substantially nothing new from this trial.

You don't believe YOU have, because you accepted John as a reliable witness from day 1. I didn't. The fact that George Zimmerman was charged with murder caused me to believe that (1) either John was not a reliable witness or (2) that the prosecution had other evidence that would either contradict John or make his testimony less relevant. That was my supposition, and I considered it reasonable, and still do.

But I was wrong on both counts. And never in my wildest dreams did I think that the prosecution would call John themselves, and eviscerate their own case. I know that there have been some speculative reasons given here, but I still can't fathom it.

It's becoming apparent that they saw him as one of the strongest (if not the strongest) Defense witness and their intent was to impeach him (at the least).

Then isn't the correct thing to do to accumulate other witnesses who combined testimony will weaken his, and then leave it to the defense to call him? By calling him yourself you add weight to his testimony, no? I just don't get it. I haven't watched a million trials, but I've watched a few, and I've NEVER seen this before.

 

[Witz]

I stepped away for a second - just saw the prosecution ask John if he was lying with an earlier statement. What was that about?

John felt the need to make a statement following the intial statement to the police that night. Because he "felt the need to give another statement" the prosecution is trying to say he had a change of opinion and lied initially. John stated that he wanted to clarify, so words were not put into his mouth.

Thanks - watching now - looks like they are trying to compare changes to his statements to Didi's statements (with what the defense was doing yesterday).

 

[jon_mx]

Second time in two days that the prosecution have desperately tried to impeach one of their witnesses.....what a great case!

 

[jon_mx]

Zimmerman is going to be charged with having a broken turn signal after this witness steps down.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

Zimmerman is going to be charged with having a broken turn signal after this witness steps down.

 

[ATC1]

One thing the Prosecution got was the witness saying he didn't actually see TM punch GZ, thus how can he describe TM action as a "ground and pound"?

 

[Carolina Hustler]

So at this point, we've established that Martin was on top for a period of time. What does that mean? Do we know if Martin had the gun pulled on him by that time? Had he even seen the gun?

According to George, he twisted his body from the bottom position, his shirt lifted exposing his gun, Trayvon saw it, threatened to kill him, George felt Martin's hand crossing his body going for the gun, George unholstered and fired. Unfortunately there is no other witness closer to this than John but George.

Is there a way to get George's account without putting him on the stand like an admittance of his statement or something?

bump

This has been a question all thread long.. They can ask witnesses what they heard Zimmerman say I think.. I've heard this a few times already.. As I understand it, there will be officers who were on the scene witnessing for the defense, who talking to Zimmerman..

Is that not considered hearsay?? Guess not?

I'm not sure, but I have heard both sides ask people what they heard from the people outside including Zimmerman saying help, or "I killed the guy" or "I have a gun"...

 

[jamny]

After recess, State will call Charlie to the stand.

 

[kentric]

Interesting how people are comparing Good's looking to provide clarification on his statements with Rachel excluding vital information.

 

[timschochet]

HLN news speculating: No murder 2. But can Zimmerman still be found guilty for manslaughter? (The argument being, he never should have gotten out of the car.)

Again, that's what I think. But I don't see how the prosecution can prove it any longer. Unless Zimmerman has to testify. I sure hope this happens.

 

[pittstownkiller]

After recess, State will call Charlie to the stand.

State: Your Honor, the prosecution would like permission to treat Charlie as a hostile witness.

 

[jon_mx]

HLN news speculating: No murder 2. But can Zimmerman still be found guilty for manslaughter? (The argument being, he never should have gotten out of the car.)

Again, that's what I think. But I don't see how the prosecution can prove it any longer. Unless Zimmerman has to testify. I sure hope this happens.

The other guy destroyed the argument and said it did not matter. Tim, your hearing is super selective.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

HLN news speculating: No murder 2. But can Zimmerman still be found guilty for manslaughter? (The argument being, he never should have gotten out of the car.)

Again, that's what I think. But I don't see how the prosecution can prove it any longer. Unless Zimmerman has to testify. I sure hope this happens.

HLN has been wrong consistently... I posted earlier that manslaughter is possible, but with this new insight on HLN's position I see Zimmerman walk...

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

One thing the Prosecution got was the witness saying he didn't actually see TM punch GZ, thus how can he describe TM action as a "ground and pound"?

Agreed but it seems flimsy, he saw Martin's hand movements, and you have Z's injuries, combined with the fact that it was dark and Martin's back was to him compromising his viewing angle.

 

[pittstownkiller]

I hope Zimmerman stands up in court and blurts out "You're right Tim, I murdered him; I always wanted him dead; I can't take the guilt!" and then collapses into a blubbering mess.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

HLN news speculating: No murder 2. But can Zimmerman still be found guilty for manslaughter? (The argument being, he never should have gotten out of the car.)

Again, that's what I think. But I don't see how the prosecution can prove it any longer. Unless Zimmerman has to testify. I sure hope this happens.

I had posted earlier, I think the way this will work at the end is Prosecution can suggest the jury can rule on either M2 or Manslaughter and it is up to the Defense to allow it. I don't believe FL has automatic lesser charges as part of their process. One question I have is what happens if State drops M2, is the trial over? I mean what if they say we no longer want to go for M2, but we would like to continue to go after Manslaughter, can something like that happen?

 

[The Commish]

Question: If I'm the judge, I'm thinking to myself, "OK, reasonable doubt has clearly been established here." Can the judge stop the trial at this point?

Or am I overreacting here? I've been trying to watch this as objectively as possible (despite my own strongly subjective bias) and it seems to me as if this witness has provided a reasonable doubt that will be impossible for the prosecution to eliminate. Does anyone disagree with this? If so, please explain.

You are the most fickle easily convinced person I have ever seen here.

In his defense, after hearing this witness, how could anyone not wonder if this trial will be stopped soon?

I think the murder two is all but gone, but I believe there is still more to hash out. If on the jury, I'd still want to hear the evidence around how they met up, because there's still a part of me that keeps thinking, if Zimmerman had done what he was asked and followed the rules of his neighborhood watch, this kid wouldn't be dead today. We lose sight of this fact easily in this case. Zimmerman took a person's life. He may not have meant to, or gotten out of his truck thinking he was going to, but he did.

My take is if Martin did not go off and feel the need to beat up Zimmerman, he would be alive today.

Of course....always the voice of reason there jon.

 

[Joe McGee]

George Zimmerman to Tim - I would have gotten away with it, too, if it hadn't been for you meddling kids!

 

[jamny]

From the NY Times

Jurors will get the opportunity to consider the lesser charge of manslaughter, but prosecutors will spend weeks in court arguing for second-degree murder.

 

[ATC1]

One thing the Prosecution got was the witness saying he didn't actually see TM punch GZ, thus how can he describe TM action as a "ground and pound"?

Agreed but it seems flimsy, he saw Martin's hand movements, and you have Z's injuries, combined with the fact that it was dark and Martin's back was to him compromising his viewing angle.

Thought the state should have used this to mention that John lied instead of "the feeling the need to clarify" to police about the events.

Thought defense could have asked John if the velocity of the downward arm swings were quick as in a punching fashion or did the arms stay down as if holding GZ down.

 

[timschochet]

From the NY Times

Jurors will get the opportunity to consider the lesser charge of manslaughter, but prosecutors will spend weeks in court arguing for second-degree murder.

Is this like a negotiation? The prosecution asks for murder 2 knowing they'll never get it, but figuring it will help the jury regard manslaughter as a compromise?

 

[Witz]

Interesting how people are comparing Good's looking to provide clarification on his statements with Rachel excluding vital information.

I was saying that it appeared to be what the prosecution was trying to do but the difference between the two is night and day (saying he saw a flurry of blows and than saying it was like ground and pound is way different than saying the phone went dead and changing it to I heard get off me get off me and than the phone went dead).

 

[Carolina Hustler]

One thing the Prosecution got was the witness saying he didn't actually see TM punch GZ, thus how can he describe TM action as a "ground and pound"?

Agreed but it seems flimsy, he saw Martin's hand movements, and you have Z's injuries, combined with the fact that it was dark and Martin's back was to him compromising his viewing angle.

Thought the state should have used this to mention that John lied instead of "the feeling the need to clarify" to police about the events.

Thought defense could have asked John if the velocity of the downward arm swings were quick as in a punching fashion or did the arms stay down as if holding GZ down.

Or if they were pushing Zimmerman's hands away with or without a gun in them..

 

[kentric]

John didn't notice the banging of Z's head on concrete. Some discrepancy there. I forgot what Z said about this. Did he say he was being choked and his head pounded or, just head pounded. If the later, defense could claim hits/punches from Trayvon forced Z's head to hit the ground.

CNN discussing this now. Attorney says no real difference if his head is being banged on the concrete directly by Trayvon vs. continuous punches forcing his head to hit the concrete.

 

[Witz]

One thing the Prosecution got was the witness saying he didn't actually see TM punch GZ, thus how can he describe TM action as a "ground and pound"?

Agreed but it seems flimsy, he saw Martin's hand movements, and you have Z's injuries, combined with the fact that it was dark and Martin's back was to him compromising his viewing angle.

Thought the state should have used this to mention that John lied instead of "the feeling the need to clarify" to police about the events.

Thought defense could have asked John if the velocity of the downward arm swings were quick as in a punching fashion or did the arms stay down as if holding GZ down.

Where's the lie?

 

[jon_mx]

Question: If I'm the judge, I'm thinking to myself, "OK, reasonable doubt has clearly been established here." Can the judge stop the trial at this point?

Or am I overreacting here? I've been trying to watch this as objectively as possible (despite my own strongly subjective bias) and it seems to me as if this witness has provided a reasonable doubt that will be impossible for the prosecution to eliminate. Does anyone disagree with this? If so, please explain.

You are the most fickle easily convinced person I have ever seen here.

In his defense, after hearing this witness, how could anyone not wonder if this trial will be stopped soon?

I think the murder two is all but gone, but I believe there is still more to hash out. If on the jury, I'd still want to hear the evidence around how they met up, because there's still a part of me that keeps thinking, if Zimmerman had done what he was asked and followed the rules of his neighborhood watch, this kid wouldn't be dead today. We lose sight of this fact easily in this case. Zimmerman took a person's life. He may not have meant to, or gotten out of his truck thinking he was going to, but he did.

My take is if Martin did not go off and feel the need to beat up Zimmerman, he would be alive today.

Of course....always the voice of reason there jon.

Beating someone's face in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Getting out of a truck

 

[Carolina Hustler]

One thing the Prosecution got was the witness saying he didn't actually see TM punch GZ, thus how can he describe TM action as a "ground and pound"?

Agreed but it seems flimsy, he saw Martin's hand movements, and you have Z's injuries, combined with the fact that it was dark and Martin's back was to him compromising his viewing angle.

Thought the state should have used this to mention that John lied instead of "the feeling the need to clarify" to police about the events.

Thought defense could have asked John if the velocity of the downward arm swings were quick as in a punching fashion or did the arms stay down as if holding GZ down.

Where's the lie?

They did try to insinuate that he lied btw.. The word lying was even used..

 

[Todem]

This case is over.

Over.

 

[jamny]

I know the name "John" has been mentioned as a potential big testimony. Were there any other witnesses? Any other compelling testimony besides possibly George himself?

 

[Witz]

One thing the Prosecution got was the witness saying he didn't actually see TM punch GZ, thus how can he describe TM action as a "ground and pound"?

Agreed but it seems flimsy, he saw Martin's hand movements, and you have Z's injuries, combined with the fact that it was dark and Martin's back was to him compromising his viewing angle.

Thought the state should have used this to mention that John lied instead of "the feeling the need to clarify" to police about the events.

Thought defense could have asked John if the velocity of the downward arm swings were quick as in a punching fashion or did the arms stay down as if holding GZ down.

Where's the lie?

They did try to insinuate that he lied btw.. The word lying was even used..

I know - I'm asking what did they think he lied about.

 

[ATC1]

One thing the Prosecution got was the witness saying he didn't actually see TM punch GZ, thus how can he describe TM action as a "ground and pound"?

Agreed but it seems flimsy, he saw Martin's hand movements, and you have Z's injuries, combined with the fact that it was dark and Martin's back was to him compromising his viewing angle.

Thought the state should have used this to mention that John lied instead of "the feeling the need to clarify" to police about the events.

Thought defense could have asked John if the velocity of the downward arm swings were quick as in a punching fashion or did the arms stay down as if holding GZ down.

Or if they were pushing Zimmerman's hands away with or without a gun in them..

He said he did not see a gun. Unfortunate that John left to call 911 when supposedly via GZ that TM saw the gun and tried to reach for it. If he wouldn't have saw that GZ would be in trouble, if he did see that GZ would be acquitted IMO.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

If the prosecution has no more witnesses to call the trial, for all intents and purposes, is likely over

 

[timschochet]

I know the name "John" has been mentioned as a potential big testimony. Were there any other witnesses? Any other compelling testimony besides possibly George himself?

If a doctor testifies that ZImmerman suffered a broken nose, and other injuries, then that's pretty important. But otherwise, I don't think so.

 

[Joe McGee]

This case is over.

Over.

Yep. I think I'm done watching.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

One thing the Prosecution got was the witness saying he didn't actually see TM punch GZ, thus how can he describe TM action as a "ground and pound"?

Agreed but it seems flimsy, he saw Martin's hand movements, and you have Z's injuries, combined with the fact that it was dark and Martin's back was to him compromising his viewing angle.

Thought the state should have used this to mention that John lied instead of "the feeling the need to clarify" to police about the events.

Thought defense could have asked John if the velocity of the downward arm swings were quick as in a punching fashion or did the arms stay down as if holding GZ down.

Where's the lie?

They did try to insinuate that he lied btw.. The word lying was even used..

I know - I'm asking what did they think he lied about.

They tried to used added words in later interviews as inconsistencies, or lies, to disprove his testimony.. He added the term "ground£" to his second interview.

 

[Witz]

I know the name "John" has been mentioned as a potential big testimony. Were there any other witnesses? Any other compelling testimony besides possibly George himself?

If a doctor testifies that ZImmerman suffered a broken nose, and other injuries, then that's pretty important. But otherwise, I don't think so.

Doctor doesn't need to testify (at least I don't think so). They have the medical reports which indicate that.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

I know the name "John" has been mentioned as a potential big testimony. Were there any other witnesses? Any other compelling testimony besides possibly George himself?

If a doctor testifies that ZImmerman suffered a broken nose, and other injuries, then that's pretty important. But otherwise, I don't think so.

I have to assume the doctor who examined Zimmerman will be called to the stand to describe the injuries..

 

[Witz]

One thing the Prosecution got was the witness saying he didn't actually see TM punch GZ, thus how can he describe TM action as a "ground and pound"?

Agreed but it seems flimsy, he saw Martin's hand movements, and you have Z's injuries, combined with the fact that it was dark and Martin's back was to him compromising his viewing angle.

Thought the state should have used this to mention that John lied instead of "the feeling the need to clarify" to police about the events.

Thought defense could have asked John if the velocity of the downward arm swings were quick as in a punching fashion or did the arms stay down as if holding GZ down.

Where's the lie?

They did try to insinuate that he lied btw.. The word lying was even used..

I know - I'm asking what did they think he lied about.

They tried to used added words in later interviews as inconsistencies, or lies, to disprove his testimony.. He added the term "ground£" to his second interview.

Wasn't sure if there was something else aside from that - he's been consistent that it appeared Martin was hitting Zimmerman - calling it as throw blows or ground and pound - the result is the same.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

I know the name "John" has been mentioned as a potential big testimony. Were there any other witnesses? Any other compelling testimony besides possibly George himself?

If a doctor testifies that ZImmerman suffered a broken nose, and other injuries, then that's pretty important. But otherwise, I don't think so.

Doctor doesn't need to testify (at least I don't think so). They have the medical reports which indicate that.

They can't introduce the medical reports without putting the person who prepared them on the stand..

Does anyone who if the doc is on the witness list? Is that information available to us?

 

[jon_mx]

So it was the creepy-### cracker who was screaming?

 

[Carolina Hustler]

So it was the creepy-### cracker who was screaming?

Creepy-###-screaming

 

[kentric]

So it was the creepy-### cracker who was screaming?

Creepy-###-screaming

Seems that way sir

 

[The Commish]

Question: If I'm the judge, I'm thinking to myself, "OK, reasonable doubt has clearly been established here." Can the judge stop the trial at this point?

Or am I overreacting here? I've been trying to watch this as objectively as possible (despite my own strongly subjective bias) and it seems to me as if this witness has provided a reasonable doubt that will be impossible for the prosecution to eliminate. Does anyone disagree with this? If so, please explain.

You are the most fickle easily convinced person I have ever seen here.

In his defense, after hearing this witness, how could anyone not wonder if this trial will be stopped soon?

I think the murder two is all but gone, but I believe there is still more to hash out. If on the jury, I'd still want to hear the evidence around how they met up, because there's still a part of me that keeps thinking, if Zimmerman had done what he was asked and followed the rules of his neighborhood watch, this kid wouldn't be dead today. We lose sight of this fact easily in this case. Zimmerman took a person's life. He may not have meant to, or gotten out of his truck thinking he was going to, but he did.

My take is if Martin did not go off and feel the need to beat up Zimmerman, he would be alive today.

Of course....always the voice of reason there jon.

Beating someone's face in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Getting out of a truck

would you stop with the "beating his face in" crap....they hyperbole is nauseating and unnecessary.

 

[jon_mx]

Question: If I'm the judge, I'm thinking to myself, "OK, reasonable doubt has clearly been established here." Can the judge stop the trial at this point?

Or am I overreacting here? I've been trying to watch this as objectively as possible (despite my own strongly subjective bias) and it seems to me as if this witness has provided a reasonable doubt that will be impossible for the prosecution to eliminate. Does anyone disagree with this? If so, please explain.

You are the most fickle easily convinced person I have ever seen here.

In his defense, after hearing this witness, how could anyone not wonder if this trial will be stopped soon?

I think the murder two is all but gone, but I believe there is still more to hash out. If on the jury, I'd still want to hear the evidence around how they met up, because there's still a part of me that keeps thinking, if Zimmerman had done what he was asked and followed the rules of his neighborhood watch, this kid wouldn't be dead today. We lose sight of this fact easily in this case. Zimmerman took a person's life. He may not have meant to, or gotten out of his truck thinking he was going to, but he did.

My take is if Martin did not go off and feel the need to beat up Zimmerman, he would be alive today.

Of course....always the voice of reason there jon.

Beating someone's face in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Getting out of a truck

would you stop with the "beating his face in" crap....they hyperbole is nauseating and unnecessary.

OK....I believe the testimony is the innocent skittle-boy went off MMA style on the face of the creepy-### cracker wannabe cop.

 

[jon_mx]

Question: If I'm the judge, I'm thinking to myself, "OK, reasonable doubt has clearly been established here." Can the judge stop the trial at this point?

Or am I overreacting here? I've been trying to watch this as objectively as possible (despite my own strongly subjective bias) and it seems to me as if this witness has provided a reasonable doubt that will be impossible for the prosecution to eliminate. Does anyone disagree with this? If so, please explain.

You are the most fickle easily convinced person I have ever seen here.

In his defense, after hearing this witness, how could anyone not wonder if this trial will be stopped soon?

I think the murder two is all but gone, but I believe there is still more to hash out. If on the jury, I'd still want to hear the evidence around how they met up, because there's still a part of me that keeps thinking, if Zimmerman had done what he was asked and followed the rules of his neighborhood watch, this kid wouldn't be dead today. We lose sight of this fact easily in this case. Zimmerman took a person's life. He may not have meant to, or gotten out of his truck thinking he was going to, but he did.

My take is if Martin did not go off and feel the need to beat up Zimmerman, he would be alive today.

Of course....always the voice of reason there jon.

Beating someone's face in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Getting out of a truck

would you stop with the "beating his face in" crap....they hyperbole is nauseating and unnecessary.

I am not sure what is a hyperbole. His nose was busted in. His lip was bloodied. He had cuts in the back of his head. His eye was swollen. He was screaming for his life for at least 1 minute. You insist on belittling this.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Beating someone's face in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Getting out of a truck

would you stop with the "beating his face in" crap....they hyperbole is nauseating and unnecessary.

You describing it as a couple nicks and scratches is just as bad..

 

[The Commish]

Question: If I'm the judge, I'm thinking to myself, "OK, reasonable doubt has clearly been established here." Can the judge stop the trial at this point?

Or am I overreacting here? I've been trying to watch this as objectively as possible (despite my own strongly subjective bias) and it seems to me as if this witness has provided a reasonable doubt that will be impossible for the prosecution to eliminate. Does anyone disagree with this? If so, please explain.

You are the most fickle easily convinced person I have ever seen here.

In his defense, after hearing this witness, how could anyone not wonder if this trial will be stopped soon?

I think the murder two is all but gone, but I believe there is still more to hash out. If on the jury, I'd still want to hear the evidence around how they met up, because there's still a part of me that keeps thinking, if Zimmerman had done what he was asked and followed the rules of his neighborhood watch, this kid wouldn't be dead today. We lose sight of this fact easily in this case. Zimmerman took a person's life. He may not have meant to, or gotten out of his truck thinking he was going to, but he did.

My take is if Martin did not go off and feel the need to beat up Zimmerman, he would be alive today.

Of course....always the voice of reason there jon.

Beating someone's face in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Getting out of a truck

would you stop with the "beating his face in" crap....they hyperbole is nauseating and unnecessary.

I am not sure what is a hyperbole. His nose was busted in. His lip was bloodied. He had cuts in the back of his head. His eye was swollen. He was screaming for his life for at least 1 minute. You insist on belittling this.

This is a bashed in face I already linked the worst photo of George earlier.....not even close to the same thing. If you can't see the difference, I can't help.

 

[The Commish]

Beating someone's face in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Getting out of a truck

would you stop with the "beating his face in" crap....they hyperbole is nauseating and unnecessary.

You describing it as a couple nicks and scratches is just as bad..

He had several scratches....there were no deep gashes like his brain was getting ready to ooze out of his skull. There's a good amount of blood, but given the reality that we have more blood sent to our brains than any other organ, what do we expect?