Florida boy killed by Neighborhood Watch (4 Viewers)

[RBM]

White hispanic

 

[identikit]

What do you guys think about legislators wearing hoodies in protest while the legislature is in process? It apparently became an issue yesterday in Congress.

'Hooded' legislators make a point

ALBANY — Citing "demonizing stereotypes," a group of mostly African-American and Hispanic state lawmakers wore hooded sweatshirts into the legislative chambers on Monday in solidarity with the family of Trayvon Marton,

http://www.timesunio...p#ixzz1qQO9vlL6

Dem pulled from House floor for Trayvon hoodie

Rep. Bobby Rush, D-Ill., lost his right to speak on the House floor after he violated rules by putting on a hoodie and sunglasses in honor of Trayvon Martin, the Florida teen shot last month.

Racial profiling has to stop, Mr. Speaker," Rush said as he took off his suit jacket to reveal a hoodie underneath, and pulled the hood over his head. "Just because someone wears a hoodie does not make them a hoodlum."

"The member will suspend," the chair said. "The member is no longer recognized. The chair will ask the sergeant-at-arms to enforce the rules on decorum."

Rush's "donning of the hood" violated clause five of House Rule 15 against wearing hats on the House floor.

Link w/ Video

The hoodie thing is out of control..every teen I know wears hoodies..I wear hoodies. I wish Trey was wearing a Detroit Tiger hat that night. Who cares what he had on?

I agree.It's dumb. Lemmingesque.

A simplistic response to a very complicated incident that we (as of now) don't know enough about.

 

[Chaos Commish]

After 89 pages I've come to one and only one conclusion about this case - I would HATE to be on that jury.

I confess. I am fascinated by the case. I would love to sit on that jury.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

After 89 pages I've come to one and only one conclusion about this case - I would HATE to be on that jury.

I confess. I am fascinated by the case. I would love to sit on that jury.

I almost stated it the other day... its gonna be impossible to get an impartial jury.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

After 89 pages I've come to one and only one conclusion about this case - I would HATE to be on that jury.

You're right. It is much more entertaining to speculate wildly on what happened based on spotty media reports instead of getting the actual facts by being on the jury (if it ever does to trial).

 

[Chaos Commish]

I'm curious to see how far away from the car they are...

The altercation took place in an area 300-400 feet from Zimmerman's vehicle, a little more than a football field away. This is my own detective work, btw so...

 

[Steve Tasker]

Can someone give me an unbiased synopsis of the known facts of this case? I've intentionally stayed out of this thread because it looks like a giant #######

 

[jomar]

During the call the Zimmerman lost Martin because when the operator told him he doesn't need to follow Martin he says, "Ok, I lost him anyway." Did he continue to pursuit or does that sound like he would head back to the car? One fact is that Zimmerman was hit from behind. We don't know if that was during the confrontation/struggle or he maybe when he back was turned.

first of all, I have no idea how people get things so twisted. read the 911 transcripts. he never says 'Ok, I lost him anyway' after being told to not follow Martin. he said 'OK', and then later on in the call while giving out his address, he says he doesn't want to because he 'doesn't know where this kid is at'. he said this 1:14 after he was told not to follow. did he keep following during that time or not? we don't know. I'd like to see how far from his truck Trayvon was shot. It'd seem that'd be a good starting point to see if he was near his truck or not as he'd have had over a minute to get there. Given the fact that he couldn't have been out of his truck more than 15 seconds before being told not to follow, I'd guess that he didn't go back to his truck right away.also, it is not a fact that Zimmerman was hit from behind. there is no need to make stuff up like this and say it is a fact. even by Zimmermans account, he doesn't say he was hit from behind. he was hit in the nose first, then had the back of his head hit on the pavement. unless Zimmerman's nose is on the back of his head, I don't know how you'd think he was hit from behind.

IF that was Zimmerman's statement, then that's how it he saw it happened. I never said it was fact. I even said we did not know for sure. If he was trying to prove self defense and fabricated a story, it would benefit him to have Martin "hit him from behind".He wasn't told not to follow. It was suggested to him. I figure he wanted to keep an idea of where he was, so he can tell the police where he is. Is that smart of him? no. That would not be grounds for an arrest though. I'm curious to see how far away from the car they are, but that doesn't mean one did not chase the other further away from the car. That would be a huge indicator of who the aggressor is.

of course it would benefit Martin if he said he was hit from behind. however, thats not what he said, nor has anyone said that.

I think my favorite schtick of the Zimmerman guys are that dispatch didn't tell him not to follow. um, yes, they did. maybe she was trying to be polite by saying 'we don't need you to do that' but it was clear to everyone that she was saying 'don't follow'.

 

[Chaos Commish]

After 89 pages I've come to one and only one conclusion about this case - I would HATE to be on that jury.

I confess. I am fascinated by the case. I would love to sit on that jury.

I almost stated it the other day... its gonna be impossible to get an impartial jury.

Would you like to be a juror? Would you be impartial?

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Can someone give me an unbiased synopsis of the known facts of this case? I've intentionally stayed out of this thread because it looks like a giant #######

Zimmerman sees Martin. Something happens. Martin is shot dead.

 

[Clinton]

After 89 pages I've come to one and only one conclusion about this case - I would HATE to be on that jury.

It's a nationally known case. You can sell a book or do interviews after the trial and rake in .

 

[BigSteelThrill]

After 89 pages I've come to one and only one conclusion about this case - I would HATE to be on that jury.

I confess. I am fascinated by the case. I would love to sit on that jury.

I almost stated it the other day... its gonna be impossible to get an impartial jury.

Would you like to be a juror? Would you be impartial?

Id like to think I would be impartial. And just wait for the facts as presented in the trial., But Ive certainly been exposed to the case and have some ideas on it prehand. So I would easily recuse myself from it.I wouldn't want to do anyone an injustice.

 

[Steve Tasker]

Can someone give me an unbiased synopsis of the known facts of this case? I've intentionally stayed out of this thread because it looks like a giant #######

Zimmerman sees Martin. Something happens. Martin is shot dead.

Zimmerman was some sort of neighborhood watch guy? Was authorized to carry a gun? Not authorized to carry a gun? He called the police at some point, right?

 

[parrot]

After 89 pages I've come to one and only one conclusion about this case - I would HATE to be on that jury.

I confess. I am fascinated by the case. I would love to sit on that jury.

I almost stated it the other day... its gonna be impossible to get an impartial jury.

Why? I think many people are withholding judgment until more facts are presented, they just don't happen to be the ones making all the noise.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Can someone give me an unbiased synopsis of the known facts of this case? I've intentionally stayed out of this thread because it looks like a giant #######

Zimmerman sees Martin. Something happens. Martin is shot dead.

Zimmerman was some sort of neighborhood watch guy? Was authorized to carry a gun? Not authorized to carry a gun? He called the police at some point, right?

He was legal to carry a concealed weapon, had a permit.Though he was going against neighborhood watch rules, because you are not supposed to carry a gun. And also you are not to engage a suspect.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

After 89 pages I've come to one and only one conclusion about this case - I would HATE to be on that jury.

I confess. I am fascinated by the case. I would love to sit on that jury.

I almost stated it the other day... its gonna be impossible to get an impartial jury.

Why? I think many people are withholding judgment until more facts are presented, they just don't happen to be the ones making all the noise.

In that part of Florida?

 

[TexanFan02]

Can someone give me an unbiased synopsis of the known facts of this case? I've intentionally stayed out of this thread because it looks like a giant #######

Zimmerman sees Martin. Something happens. Martin is shot dead.

Zimmerman was some sort of neighborhood watch guy? Was authorized to carry a gun? Not authorized to carry a gun? He called the police at some point, right?

There's a fairly comprehensive Wikipedia article about the issue, look it up.

 

[StrikeS2k]

After 89 pages I've come to one and only one conclusion about this case - I would HATE to be on that jury.

It's a nationally known case. You can sell a book or do interviews after the trial and rake in .

I just think it would be a very difficult job and that either way I vote I would feel horrible about it.

 

[TexanFan02]

Not sure if this has been hashed over yet, but I'm sure this will end well.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-27/news/os-travyon-martin-new-orleans-cop-20120327_1_new-orleans-police-officer-police-force-website

NEW ORLEANS (AP) — A New Orleans police officer resigned Tuesday, a day after being suspended for a comment he posted on a local TV station website about the shooting of Trayvon Martin in which he suggested the Florida teen died like a "thug."

Jason Giroir used his full name and identified himself as a New Orleans Police Department employee when he wrote, "Act like a thug die like one!" in response to a WWL-TV article on a rally supporting Martin, who was killed last month by a neighborhood watch volunteer.

Oops.

 

[Steve Tasker]

Can someone give me an unbiased synopsis of the known facts of this case? I've intentionally stayed out of this thread because it looks like a giant #######

Zimmerman sees Martin. Something happens. Martin is shot dead.

Zimmerman was some sort of neighborhood watch guy? Was authorized to carry a gun? Not authorized to carry a gun? He called the police at some point, right?

There's a fairly comprehensive Wikipedia article about the issue, look it up.

I'm always leery of Wiki articles right around the time that major current events are happening. It's a good article?

 

[TexanFan02]

Can someone give me an unbiased synopsis of the known facts of this case? I've intentionally stayed out of this thread because it looks like a giant #######

Zimmerman sees Martin. Something happens. Martin is shot dead.

Zimmerman was some sort of neighborhood watch guy? Was authorized to carry a gun? Not authorized to carry a gun? He called the police at some point, right?

There's a fairly comprehensive Wikipedia article about the issue, look it up.

I'm always leery of Wiki articles right around the time that major current events are happening. It's a good article?

As good as anything for giving you an overview. It has links.

 

[Bonzai]

Can someone give me an unbiased synopsis of the known facts of this case? I've intentionally stayed out of this thread because it looks like a giant #######

Zimmerman sees Martin. Something happens. Martin is shot dead.

Zimmerman was some sort of neighborhood watch guy? Was authorized to carry a gun? Not authorized to carry a gun? He called the police at some point, right?

There's a fairly comprehensive Wikipedia article about the issue, look it up.

I'm always leery of Wiki articles right around the time that major current events are happening. It's a good article?

I just looked it over and it's not that bad. Better than wading through this steaming pile of a thread.

 

[Clinton]

Can someone give me an unbiased synopsis of the known facts of this case? I've intentionally stayed out of this thread because it looks like a giant #######

Zimmerman sees Martin. Something happens. Martin is shot dead.

Zimmerman was some sort of neighborhood watch guy? Was authorized to carry a gun? Not authorized to carry a gun? He called the police at some point, right?

There's a fairly comprehensive Wikipedia article about the issue, look it up.

I'm always leery of Wiki articles right around the time that major current events are happening. It's a good article?

I just looked it over and it's not that bad. Better than wading through this steaming pile of a thread.

Meh, one man's garbage is another man's treasure, I guess.

I like the variety of opinions and tangential topics in this thread, but to each their own.

 

[ATC1]

Chris Serino, the lead detective on the case, expressed doubts around Zimmerman's account of the shooting, according to ABC News. Serino filed an affidavit on the night of the shooting in which he said that he was unconvinced Zimmerman's version of events.

Serino told MSNBC Tuesday night that he was not at liberty to discuss the case, but he feels very encouraged by the new investigation into the shooting, and he was "looking forward to the truth coming out."

Best thing I've read about this case so far.

Unfortunatly it tells us nothing, but the police are taking it seriously and/or trying to satisfy those seeking "justice".

Well, pure conjecture, but I read into his comments that a guy who thought Zimmerman was lying the night of the interview is now happy with the direction the investigation as meaning that his suspicion was justified.Also pure conjecture, but I bet with the variety of 9-1-1 calls, the interview with Martin's GF, and eyewitness accounts it's fairly easy to put together a consistent timeline with a lot of solid information about where people were, and when. Enough that if Zimmerman lied immediately after the shooting his story is chock full of holes. It's awfully hard to get away with something like this if there's a lot of evidence to work with and the detectives are motivated to find the truth.

btw... I think Zimmerman is as guilty as the day is long (whether it can be proved in court is a different question), but it's yet another great example of why you should

Guilty of what? Without knowng how the fight started, I don't see how you can come to this decision.

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

They played Zimmermans whole 4 minute plus 911 call last night without interuption. Zimmerman was very calm and lucid the whole call and was not agitated at all and was waiting for the police.

What happened the last 30 seconds is going to be tough to figure out. What seemed to happend is that T-Mart was taking off and Zimmerman was trying to detain him for the police and that is when the scuffle broke out. They played that scream NO 4-5 times and it sounded more like a mans voice than that of a kids.

If this happened, the Trayvon was defending himself during a scuffle.. Not sure what hand fighting for a gun does to reestablish "fear for my life"..Can you link that footage?

Then it is not self defense. You can't start the fight and claim self defense because you start losing it.

In Florida, you can.

That is absurd law and just glancing at the statute it would seem to be a hard burden for him to show. The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:

(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or

(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:

(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or (b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

There is the important part... Regardless of who started it, if someone wants to stop, but the other one will not, and the person who wants to stop is in fear of either death or great bodily hard, he is within his rights to defend himself..

And no one has an answer to that yet. A 60 second fight leads me to believe that did not happen if the timeline is correct.

it's obvious someone wanted it to stop, as there were screams for "Help" and/or "Noo"The 911 call clearly demonstrates that someone cried out for help several times before the gun went off... There was plenty of time for all of that...

You are misreading the law. "wanting" it to stop does not avow you to use lethal force if you were the initial aggressor. You have to actually withdraw from physical contact AND (not OR) indicate that you desire to withdraw and terminate force. You don't get to pick a fight, get knocked to the ground and then cry and shoot.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

btw... I think Zimmerman is as guilty as the day is long (whether it can be proved in court is a different question), but it's yet another great example of why you should

Murder.Oh yeah... and idiocy. Absolutely guilty of being an idiot of galactic proportions.

 

[Slapdash]

Can someone give me an unbiased synopsis of the known facts of this case? I've intentionally stayed out of this thread because it looks like a giant #######

Zimmerman sees Martin. Something happens. Martin is shot dead.

Zimmerman was some sort of neighborhood watch guy? Was authorized to carry a gun? Not authorized to carry a gun? He called the police at some point, right?

There's a fairly comprehensive Wikipedia article about the issue, look it up.

I'm always leery of Wiki articles right around the time that major current events are happening. It's a good article?

I just looked it over and it's not that bad. Better than wading through this steaming pile of a thread.

Meh, one man's garbage is another man's treasure, I guess.

I like the variety of opinions and tangential topics in this thread, but to each their own.

Agreed. There is some garbage and some good stuff. Enjoy reading your and CC's perspectives even though I don't agree.

 

[ATC1]

During the call the Zimmerman lost Martin because when the operator told him he doesn't need to follow Martin he says, "Ok, I lost him anyway." Did he continue to pursuit or does that sound like he would head back to the car? One fact is that Zimmerman was hit from behind. We don't know if that was during the confrontation/struggle or he maybe when he back was turned.

first of all, I have no idea how people get things so twisted. read the 911 transcripts. he never says 'Ok, I lost him anyway' after being told to not follow Martin. he said 'OK', and then later on in the call while giving out his address, he says he doesn't want to because he 'doesn't know where this kid is at'. he said this 1:14 after he was told not to follow. did he keep following during that time or not? we don't know. I'd like to see how far from his truck Trayvon was shot. It'd seem that'd be a good starting point to see if he was near his truck or not as he'd have had over a minute to get there. Given the fact that he couldn't have been out of his truck more than 15 seconds before being told not to follow, I'd guess that he didn't go back to his truck right away.also, it is not a fact that Zimmerman was hit from behind. there is no need to make stuff up like this and say it is a fact. even by Zimmermans account, he doesn't say he was hit from behind. he was hit in the nose first, then had the back of his head hit on the pavement. unless Zimmerman's nose is on the back of his head, I don't know how you'd think he was hit from behind.

IF that was Zimmerman's statement, then that's how it he saw it happened. I never said it was fact. I even said we did not know for sure. If he was trying to prove self defense and fabricated a story, it would benefit him to have Martin "hit him from behind".He wasn't told not to follow. It was suggested to him. I figure he wanted to keep an idea of where he was, so he can tell the police where he is. Is that smart of him? no. That would not be grounds for an arrest though. I'm curious to see how far away from the car they are, but that doesn't mean one did not chase the other further away from the car. That would be a huge indicator of who the aggressor is.

of course it would benefit Martin if he said he was hit from behind. however, thats not what he said, nor has anyone said that.

I think my favorite schtick of the Zimmerman guys are that dispatch didn't tell him not to follow. um, yes, they did. maybe she was trying to be polite by saying 'we don't need you to do that' but it was clear to everyone that she was saying 'don't follow'.

I pointed out that if he fabricated the story, why not say Martin hit him from behind. That is all. It's IMO. It is not illegal to go against the word of the dispatcher and continue to follow Martin. Dumb, yes.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

I pointed out that if he fabricated the story, why not say Martin hit him from behind. That is all. It's IMO. It is not illegal to go against the word of the dispatcher and continue to follow Martin. Dumb, yes.

Potentially incriminating as to his "mindset" if he gets hit with charges. And appropriately so.

 

[ATC1]

Can someone give me an unbiased synopsis of the known facts of this case? I've intentionally stayed out of this thread because it looks like a giant #######

Zimmerman sees Martin. Something happens. Martin is shot dead.

Zimmerman was some sort of neighborhood watch guy? Was authorized to carry a gun? Not authorized to carry a gun? He called the police at some point, right?

He was legal to carry a concealed weapon, had a permit.Though he was going against neighborhood watch rules, because you are not supposed to carry a gun. And also you are not to engage a suspect.

Arrest him for going against neighborhood watch rules.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Can someone give me an unbiased synopsis of the known facts of this case? I've intentionally stayed out of this thread because it looks like a giant #######

Zimmerman sees Martin. Something happens. Martin is shot dead.

Zimmerman was some sort of neighborhood watch guy? Was authorized to carry a gun? Not authorized to carry a gun? He called the police at some point, right?

He was legal to carry a concealed weapon, had a permit.Though he was going against neighborhood watch rules, because you are not supposed to carry a gun. And also you are not to engage a suspect.

Arrest him for going against neighborhood watch rules.

Again...Potentially incriminating as to his "mindset" if he gets hit with charges. And appropriately so.

 

[Slapdash]

Can someone give me an unbiased synopsis of the known facts of this case? I've intentionally stayed out of this thread because it looks like a giant #######

Zimmerman sees Martin. Something happens. Martin is shot dead.

Zimmerman was some sort of neighborhood watch guy? Was authorized to carry a gun? Not authorized to carry a gun? He called the police at some point, right?

He was legal to carry a concealed weapon, had a permit.Though he was going against neighborhood watch rules, because you are not supposed to carry a gun. And also you are not to engage a suspect.

Arrest him for going against neighborhood watch rules.

He wasn't part of a neighborhood watch.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Can someone give me an unbiased synopsis of the known facts of this case? I've intentionally stayed out of this thread because it looks like a giant #######

Zimmerman sees Martin. Something happens. Martin is shot dead.

Zimmerman was some sort of neighborhood watch guy? Was authorized to carry a gun? Not authorized to carry a gun? He called the police at some point, right?

He was legal to carry a concealed weapon, had a permit.Though he was going against neighborhood watch rules, because you are not supposed to carry a gun. And also you are not to engage a suspect.

Arrest him for going against neighborhood watch rules.

He wasn't part of a neighborhood watch.

Zimmerman, who was captain of the neighborhood watch and licensed to carry a gun, made 46 calls to police since 2004, according to department records.

Did you mean to say he made another mistake for not officially registering? Yeah, Zimm is a very negligent person.

 

[jomar]

During the call the Zimmerman lost Martin because when the operator told him he doesn't need to follow Martin he says, "Ok, I lost him anyway." Did he continue to pursuit or does that sound like he would head back to the car? One fact is that Zimmerman was hit from behind. We don't know if that was during the confrontation/struggle or he maybe when he back was turned.

first of all, I have no idea how people get things so twisted. read the 911 transcripts. he never says 'Ok, I lost him anyway' after being told to not follow Martin. he said 'OK', and then later on in the call while giving out his address, he says he doesn't want to because he 'doesn't know where this kid is at'. he said this 1:14 after he was told not to follow. did he keep following during that time or not? we don't know. I'd like to see how far from his truck Trayvon was shot. It'd seem that'd be a good starting point to see if he was near his truck or not as he'd have had over a minute to get there. Given the fact that he couldn't have been out of his truck more than 15 seconds before being told not to follow, I'd guess that he didn't go back to his truck right away.also, it is not a fact that Zimmerman was hit from behind. there is no need to make stuff up like this and say it is a fact. even by Zimmermans account, he doesn't say he was hit from behind. he was hit in the nose first, then had the back of his head hit on the pavement. unless Zimmerman's nose is on the back of his head, I don't know how you'd think he was hit from behind.

IF that was Zimmerman's statement, then that's how it he saw it happened. I never said it was fact. I even said we did not know for sure. If he was trying to prove self defense and fabricated a story, it would benefit him to have Martin "hit him from behind".He wasn't told not to follow. It was suggested to him. I figure he wanted to keep an idea of where he was, so he can tell the police where he is. Is that smart of him? no. That would not be grounds for an arrest though. I'm curious to see how far away from the car they are, but that doesn't mean one did not chase the other further away from the car. That would be a huge indicator of who the aggressor is.

of course it would benefit Martin if he said he was hit from behind. however, thats not what he said, nor has anyone said that.

I think my favorite schtick of the Zimmerman guys are that dispatch didn't tell him not to follow. um, yes, they did. maybe she was trying to be polite by saying 'we don't need you to do that' but it was clear to everyone that she was saying 'don't follow'.

I pointed out that if he fabricated the story, why not say Martin hit him from behind. That is all. It's IMO. It is not illegal to go against the word of the dispatcher and continue to follow Martin. Dumb, yes.

actually, what you waid was 'one fact was that Zimmerman was hit from behind'. its right up there in your post I quoted.

 

[ATC1]

I pointed out that if he fabricated the story, why not say Martin hit him from behind. That is all. It's IMO.

It is not illegal to go against the word of the dispatcher and continue to follow Martin. Dumb, yes.

Potentially incriminating as to his "mindset" if he gets hit with charges. And appropriately so.

I suppose so.

“He would circle the block and circle it; it was weird,” said Teontae Amie, 17. “If he had spotted me, he’d probably ask me if I lived here. He was known for being really strict.”

Zimmerman called police 46 times since Jan. 1, 2011 to report disturbances, break-ins, windows left open and other incidents. Nine of those times, he saw someone or something suspicious.

“Hey, we’ve had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there’s a real suspicious guy at Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he’s up to no good,” Zimmerman told a dispatcher on Feb. 26, the night of Trayvon’s death.

The recent shooting raised troubling questions about whether the homeowners association knew its volunteer was armed with a Kel Tek 9mm semiautomatic handgun. Many residents — black and white — question Zimmerman’s judgment and wonder why he would have engaged the teenager at all.

The answer may lie in police records, which show that 50 suspicious-person reports were called in to police in the past year at Twin Lakes. There were eight burglaries, nine thefts and one other shooting in the year prior to Trayvon’s death.

In all, police had been called to the 260-unit complex 402 times from Jan. 1, 2011 to Feb. 26, 2012.

“He once caught a thief and an arrest was made,” said Cynthia Wibker, secretary of the homeowners association. “He helped solve a lot of crimes.”

Zimmerman told neighbors about stolen laptops and unsavory characters. Ibrahim Rashada, a 25-year-old African American who works at U.S. Airways, once spotted young men cutting through the woods entering the complex on foot, and later learned items were stolen those days.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/17/v-fullstory/2700249/shooter-of-trayvon-martin-a-habitual.htmlWe are creatures of habit. If Zimmerman took the initiative, called to reports strange things, detained suspects (that arrests were made), but has never been charged with a crime. Why would he act differently this time? No reports have come out of the police telling him to stop. He thinks he is doing good for his community.

I'd like to know the manner in which he detained the arrested criminal. Did he pull his weapon? Use force? etc. That would help clear up his possible intentions in this case.

 

[ATC1]

During the call the Zimmerman lost Martin because when the operator told him he doesn't need to follow Martin he says, "Ok, I lost him anyway." Did he continue to pursuit or does that sound like he would head back to the car? One fact is that Zimmerman was hit from behind. We don't know if that was during the confrontation/struggle or he maybe when he back was turned.

first of all, I have no idea how people get things so twisted. read the 911 transcripts. he never says 'Ok, I lost him anyway' after being told to not follow Martin. he said 'OK', and then later on in the call while giving out his address, he says he doesn't want to because he 'doesn't know where this kid is at'. he said this 1:14 after he was told not to follow. did he keep following during that time or not? we don't know. I'd like to see how far from his truck Trayvon was shot. It'd seem that'd be a good starting point to see if he was near his truck or not as he'd have had over a minute to get there. Given the fact that he couldn't have been out of his truck more than 15 seconds before being told not to follow, I'd guess that he didn't go back to his truck right away.also, it is not a fact that Zimmerman was hit from behind. there is no need to make stuff up like this and say it is a fact. even by Zimmermans account, he doesn't say he was hit from behind. he was hit in the nose first, then had the back of his head hit on the pavement. unless Zimmerman's nose is on the back of his head, I don't know how you'd think he was hit from behind.

IF that was Zimmerman's statement, then that's how it he saw it happened. I never said it was fact. I even said we did not know for sure. If he was trying to prove self defense and fabricated a story, it would benefit him to have Martin "hit him from behind".He wasn't told not to follow. It was suggested to him. I figure he wanted to keep an idea of where he was, so he can tell the police where he is. Is that smart of him? no. That would not be grounds for an arrest though. I'm curious to see how far away from the car they are, but that doesn't mean one did not chase the other further away from the car. That would be a huge indicator of who the aggressor is.

of course it would benefit Martin if he said he was hit from behind. however, thats not what he said, nor has anyone said that.

I think my favorite schtick of the Zimmerman guys are that dispatch didn't tell him not to follow. um, yes, they did. maybe she was trying to be polite by saying 'we don't need you to do that' but it was clear to everyone that she was saying 'don't follow'.

I pointed out that if he fabricated the story, why not say Martin hit him from behind. That is all. It's IMO. It is not illegal to go against the word of the dispatcher and continue to follow Martin. Dumb, yes.

actually, what you waid was 'one fact was that Zimmerman was hit from behind'. its right up there in your post I quoted.

He was hit behind the head. I can see where it can be implied I said for a fact he was blindsided. Poorly stated.

 

[mad sweeney]

A fist fight implies that there were 2 willing participants.

I didn't want to get into a racial argument, and had been looking at several ridiculous posts preceding yours. The current race based discussion got more interesting when an African American spoke up. I was sucked in I guess.. .

No it doesn't.

Children who are beat by their parents are not involved in fist fights. There is an obvious difference between a fist fight and a beating.

Non-sequiter much? A lot of fist fights turn into a beating. Depends on who's winning.

 

[Clinton]

Can someone give me an unbiased synopsis of the known facts of this case? I've intentionally stayed out of this thread because it looks like a giant #######

Zimmerman sees Martin. Something happens. Martin is shot dead.

Zimmerman was some sort of neighborhood watch guy? Was authorized to carry a gun? Not authorized to carry a gun? He called the police at some point, right?

There's a fairly comprehensive Wikipedia article about the issue, look it up.

I'm always leery of Wiki articles right around the time that major current events are happening. It's a good article?

I just looked it over and it's not that bad. Better than wading through this steaming pile of a thread.

Meh, one man's garbage is another man's treasure, I guess.

I like the variety of opinions and tangential topics in this thread, but to each their own.

Agreed. There is some garbage and some good stuff. Enjoy reading your and CC's perspectives even though I don't agree.

Thanks.

 

[mad sweeney]

A fist fight implies that there were 2 willing participants.

I didn't want to get into a racial argument, and had been looking at several ridiculous posts preceding yours. The current race based discussion got more interesting when an African American spoke up. I was sucked in I guess.. .

No it doesn't.

Children who are beat by their parents are not involved in fist fights. There is an obvious difference between a fist fight and a beating.

Non-sequiter much? A lot of fist fights turn into a beating. Depends on who's winning and how worried they are if the strange man following them has a gun that he might use if he lets up. A very accurate fear as it turned out. As I've said before, if it was me being followed and detained by some dude and I got the upper hand on him, I won't stop until he's unconscious and unable to get to a weapon if he has one.

 

[jonessed]

There was a brief period where this thread was dipping back into rational discussion before it got timschochet'd for the knock-out.

 

[FavreCo]

Can someone give me an unbiased synopsis of the known facts of this case? I've intentionally stayed out of this thread because it looks like a giant #######

Zimmerman sees Martin. Something happens. Martin is shot dead.

Perfecto!

 

[mad sweeney]

Yeah, I've been in a few fist fights. Even gotten my ### kicked. Never thought I was going to die, but I guess I deserved to.

How many times were you on top of a guy beating his head into the sidewalk?

What does that have to do with it? Oh, you're referring to Zimmerman's self serving uncorroborated story that he made up? Well of course the 17 year old black kid deserved to die then.

Seems his story is corroborated.. There were witness'...

No one has corroborated his head was getting slammed into the sidewalk. No one has corroborated Martin attacked him unprovoked as he was walking back to his truck. No one has corroborated that there was a struggle for the gun. No one has corroborated that Martin said "you're going to die tonight". All of which are key pieces of Zimmerman's "story".

The witness said there was a guy on top of Zimmerman, beating him.. That is not the same thing as a fist fight, not even close..

I get the feeling that you think a fist fight is like a boxing match. Complete with a ref that steps in when one guy goes down.What was up with the you gave my post when I said I liked this thread better when it was about the crime?

A fist fight implies that there were 2 willing participants.

I didn't want to get into a racial argument, and had been looking at several ridiculous posts preceding yours. The current race based discussion got more interesting when an African American spoke up. I was sucked in I guess.. .

No it doesn't.

It does in the context he was using it in..

No it doesn't. It assumes that Zimmerman wasn't willingly in a fight, which by him assuming authority of Martin he should've been ready for. Just because the witnesses only saw the end of the fight doesn't mean Z wasn't in a fist fight before Martin got the upper hand. Just another of the massive number of assumptions you make while trying to slam everyone for making assumptions.

 

[timschochet]

After 89 pages I've come to one and only one conclusion about this case - I would HATE to be on that jury.

It's a nationally known case. You can sell a book or do interviews after the trial and rake in .

I just think it would be a very difficult job and that either way I vote I would feel horrible about it.

For once I agree with you Strike. Based on what I think I know, I believe this guy is guilty, yet I would vote to acquit because of reasonable doubt. And by doing so, I might precipitate a race riot. It would be awful.

 

[mad sweeney]

Just to emphasize further because apparently people are missing the point: whites are certainly, at times, victims of racism. But they (we) are not as a group victims of institutionalized racism. A white person driving down the street doesn't have to fear that he or she will be stopped by police simply because he or she is white. Black people have to worry about this all the time. Black youths have to worry that their very presence in a neighborhood will be deemed "suspicious"- exactly the sort of thing that led to this incident.

Pretty sure any unknown adolescent hanging around a gated community would be considered suspicious. White or otherwise.

No, that's not the way it is. Blacks have it worse. They are suspected much more and treated far worse by most police forces in this country.

Funny, but you should spend some time in the ghetto. Get to know some of these outstanding youths. Watch how they interact with authority. Watch them glare at the white cop as soon as he drives up, before he ever says a word. Watch them taunt a white driver, watch their baby brothers taunt your kids. Sure they get suspected more...because they act like punks more, and they actually commit more crimes. Despite the predominant liberal belief and the media's assumptions....blacks aren't arrested more because of their skin color...they're arrested more because they're committing more crimes. (I don't think this is because of their race btw...it's a complicated problem with multiple causes.)

I like your posts quite a bit renesauz. I especially appreciated you when the Japanese nuclear crisis was going on- you provided rational, thoughtful analysis with a great deal of expertise. But your comments here I find unfortunate, and it's best if I don't respond any further.

Sadly as much as you explain he is not going to get it. Mostly because he is part of the problem and contributes to that institutionalized racsim that we experience. Its sad too, because i really think things would be better if people could truly have a better understanding of why things happen. Thats really the only reason i post in this thread to be honest. It is nice to see that some people, like Tim "get it."You want to know why we look at authority funny? Why we "interact with authority" like we do? Its because the "Authority" has a history of treating us badly. Unjustly. Beating up our people. Shooting us when unarmed. I've personally had guns drawn on me after being pulled over for no reason at all(they said my buddy made a furtive movement and also lied saying i didn't signal when i switched lanes). I could have been Treyvon. When #### like that happens to you, everyone you know, and your entire family, you react differently when you come face to face with the police.

White people are treated poorly by police as well..I've been pulled over for no reason before, I've had an officer lie on the stand when giving testimony about my case before.. I saw my brother thrown to the ground face first with handcuffs on and then have an officer kneel on his head and wrench his arms in the air, just because he wouldn't tell them what they wanted..

My cousin was maced and beaten by 4 officers in an incident that started because he didn't step out of the way when a couple officers were walking in the opposite direction down the sidewalk..

I know several cops and the ones that I know on patrol are the ones that were bullies in school. They loved authority. Don't know why they would change once they go through training and start wearing a badge. It's really messed up.

My brother plays soccer with a bunch of white cops in Phx. Just in the 2 nights I've ever been out with them I've heard half a dozen stories of them letting people off light because they were white while giving latinos and blacks as many tickets as they could.

 

[timschochet]

There was a brief period where this thread was dipping back into rational discussion before it got timschochet'd for the knock-out.

Oh OK. Pardon the intrusion. Sorry I introduced irrationality.

 

[FavreCo]

In all, police had been called to the 260-unit complex 402 times from Jan. 1, 2011 to Feb. 26, 2012.

What a #### hole.

 

[mad sweeney]

A fist fight implies that there were 2 willing participants.

I didn't want to get into a racial argument, and had been looking at several ridiculous posts preceding yours. The current race based discussion got more interesting when an African American spoke up. I was sucked in I guess.. .

No it doesn't.

Show me your proof that Zimmerman acted aggressively or struck Trayvon any time leading up to the shooting..

He stalked him with a gun.

So by your reasoning, the fact that Zimmerman followed Trayvon, and was licensed and carrying a firearm, proves that he participated in a fist fight.. Bit of a leap if you ask me..What Zimmerman did is not legally described as Stalking.. And he was legally within his rights to carry a firearm..

Yes, it was acting aggressively.That was the question. And that certainly was the situation.

The question was asked in the context of the discussion which was about a fist fight which you continue to obfuscate and twist..Just answer the question.. What proof do you have that Zimmerman willingly participated in this "Fist Fight" that you guys claim to have happened..

What proof do you have that Zimmerman didn't?

 

[mad sweeney]

that idiot doesn't bring a gun then that boy is alive and well, and perhaps arrested for beating someone to death up who followed him around

The only thing that I see that truly could have prevented this tragedy would be if GZim had stayed in his car.

They played Zimmermans whole 4 minute plus 911 call last night without interuption. Zimmerman was very calm and lucid the whole call and was not agitated at all and was waiting for the police.

What happened the last 30 seconds is going to be tough to figure out. What seemed to happend is that T-Mart was taking off and Zimmerman was trying to detain him for the police and that is when the scuffle broke out. They played that scream NO 4-5 times and it sounded more like a mans voice than that of a kids.

"Physically" detain him? I know you may not know the answer, but I was just curious what you thought.

We are trying to learn the specifics from the time of the call to the bang. That is the hardest part.What I get from the 911 call is that Zimmerman was in pursuit while on the phone with the 911 operator. I'm sure his intent was to detain him or stall him until the police got there, so he would not be allowed to break into a house. Is it smart to do that? no. Is it illegal? no.

Zimmerman presumably (trying to get the facts of this) called the police another time and stalled or detained someone before the police arrived and was successful. Did Zimmerman need to draw his gun or physically detain him? I don't know the whole facts if even true, but we would have heard something by now if he did.

During the call the Zimmerman lost Martin because when the operator told him he doesn't need to follow Martin he says, "Ok, I lost him anyway." Did he continue to pursuit or does that sound like he would head back to the car? One fact is that Zimmerman was hit from behind. We don't know if that was during the confrontation/struggle or he maybe when he back was turned.

How far from the car was the struggle. Evidence from Martin vs Zimmerman running from the other is key. We do know Martin overpowered Zimmerman. Did Zimmerman fear for his life at that time and decide to pull the gun out and shoot? Don't know. New reports sound like Martin could have saw the gun and went for it. During the struggle a shot goes off and a 2nd round does not chamber (evidence of a struggle for the gun). No official reports that the gun did not have one in the chamber, but the police know and should take that into account if there is an arrest.

I know I sound like a Zimmerman supporter, however what if the evidence does turn to his favor and there is no arrest? Seems like most of the media and Justice for TreyvonTMsupporters have convicted Zimmerman already. While he may seem like a cop wannabe that could have prevented Martin's death if he just stayed in his car, If not arrested I feel sorry for the man that he has to go through all the pressure from the media and threats. Almost better for him to be arrested and found not guilty by a jury at this point.

It is a fact? He could just as easily have hit the back of his head on the ground.

 

[mad sweeney]

They said they "didn't need him" to follow.. The didn't say "don't follow" or "we advise against that"[

People keep repeating this and I have to say it's truly annoying. It reminds me of Bill Clinton discussing the definition of "is". Look, by now we've all heard the 911 tape. What was said to Zimmerman was pretty firm. They didn't want him to pursue Martin. If you don't get this, you're being deliberately obtuse.

Firm would have been "Stop following him", or "Don't follow him"This was the opposite of firm and even if the 911 operator had the authority to give advice, or direct citizens, that argument wouldn't stand up in court.. That's how far opposite of "Firm" that statement was...Sorry it bothers you, but it's true.. They didn't tell him to do or not to do anything.. They left him to make his own decisions.. they just told him what they needed or didn't need..

You need help with context. When a 911 operator tells you they don't need you to do something, it's not phrased as a command, but it's still what the legal authorities want you to do (or not do). As much of a clown as you are about some things, you should at least be intellectually honest about this.

 

[ATC1]

The question was asked in the context of the discussion which was about a fist fight which you continue to obfuscate and twist..Just answer the question.. What proof do you have that Zimmerman willingly participated in this "Fist Fight" that you guys claim to have happened..

What proof do you have that Zimmerman didn't?

Other than his testimony? I would assume that is why there is an investigation.