Was it? I was not aware of that. Link?
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Florida boy killed by Neighborhood Watch (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter Yenrub
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FavreCo
Footballguy
Zimmerman is in a pinch, it's time to lynch.
squistion
Footballguy
BustedKnuckles
Footballguy
These events need to be examined closer IMO. (and im sure there are as we speak)
SANFORD — Despite public claims that there wasn’t enough probable cause to make a criminal case in the Trayvon Martin killing, early in the investigation the Sanford Police Department requested an arrest warrant from the Seminole County State Attorney’s office, the special prosecutor in the case told The Miami Herald on Tuesday.
A Sanford Police incident report shows the case was categorized as “homicide/negligent manslaughter.”
The state attorney’s office held off pending further review.
Asked to confirm that the police recommended a manslaughter charge, special prosecutor Angela Corey said: “I don’t know about that, but as far as the process I can tell you that the police went to the state attorney with a capias request, meaning: ‘We’re through with our investigation and here it is for you.’ The state attorney impaneled a grand jury, but before anything else could be done, the governor stepped in and asked us to pick it up in mid-stream.”
A capias is a request for charges to be filed.
The Seminole County State Attorney’s Office declined to comment on whether its prosecutors ever recommended against filing charges.
“If you go with what was reported in the press the first night, there would have been an arrest right away, but obviously something gave investigators pause,” said a source in the Seminole State Attorney’s office who did not want to speak publicly, because the case is now assigned to a different prosecutor. “We get capias warrants all the time. That doesn’t mean we file charges right away. We investigate to see if it’s appropriate. That’s the responsible thing to do.’’
The Seminole County State Attorney’s Office was consulted the night of Trayvon’s killing, but no prosecutor ever visited the scene. As the controversy intensified, Gov. Rick Scott replaced Seminole State Attorney Norm Wolfinger with Corey, the state attorney for Duval, Nassau and Clay counties, based in Jacksonville.
The development is in stark contrast to the statements repeatedly made by Bill Lee, the Sanford police chief who has since stepped aside and was lambasted for his handling of the case. Lee publicly insisted that there was no probable cause to arrest Zimmerman, leading many critics to say he came across more like a defense attorney for the security buff.
SANFORD — Despite public claims that there wasn’t enough probable cause to make a criminal case in the Trayvon Martin killing, early in the investigation the Sanford Police Department requested an arrest warrant from the Seminole County State Attorney’s office, the special prosecutor in the case told The Miami Herald on Tuesday.
A Sanford Police incident report shows the case was categorized as “homicide/negligent manslaughter.”
The state attorney’s office held off pending further review.
Asked to confirm that the police recommended a manslaughter charge, special prosecutor Angela Corey said: “I don’t know about that, but as far as the process I can tell you that the police went to the state attorney with a capias request, meaning: ‘We’re through with our investigation and here it is for you.’ The state attorney impaneled a grand jury, but before anything else could be done, the governor stepped in and asked us to pick it up in mid-stream.”
A capias is a request for charges to be filed.
The Seminole County State Attorney’s Office declined to comment on whether its prosecutors ever recommended against filing charges.
“If you go with what was reported in the press the first night, there would have been an arrest right away, but obviously something gave investigators pause,” said a source in the Seminole State Attorney’s office who did not want to speak publicly, because the case is now assigned to a different prosecutor. “We get capias warrants all the time. That doesn’t mean we file charges right away. We investigate to see if it’s appropriate. That’s the responsible thing to do.’’
The Seminole County State Attorney’s Office was consulted the night of Trayvon’s killing, but no prosecutor ever visited the scene. As the controversy intensified, Gov. Rick Scott replaced Seminole State Attorney Norm Wolfinger with Corey, the state attorney for Duval, Nassau and Clay counties, based in Jacksonville.
The development is in stark contrast to the statements repeatedly made by Bill Lee, the Sanford police chief who has since stepped aside and was lambasted for his handling of the case. Lee publicly insisted that there was no probable cause to arrest Zimmerman, leading many critics to say he came across more like a defense attorney for the security buff.
timschochet
Footballguy
I don't think that any reasonable person viewing this from afar (which most of us are) can be sure of anything at this point. I have made plenty of assumptions, however, and I'll hold onto those assumptions until they are proven wrong, because at the moment they make logical sense to me. My two main assumptions are; (1) Zimmerman is a liar guilty of manslaugher or murder and (2) there's no way an honest juror could convict him based on what we know. If I am proven wrong about either of these assumptions, so what? I've made them based on what I know right know, and neither assumption is made with 100% certainty. The key to integrity is allowing new information to change your suppositions.
NCCommish
Footballguy
Could as easily be a shadow. And that really doesn't seem to match his story of being pounded into the concrete. Lastly a detective saw it all close up and didn't buy it.
timschochet
Footballguy
I think we can make two assumptions here:1. There were a lot of screw ups in this investigation from top to bottom.
2. A lot of what happens now is going to be determined by that motivation that we can always count on dominates the thinking of virtuous and heroic public officials:
Damn! What a mess! How do I save my own butt?
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
I am sure that Zimmerman didn't heed any of the best police advice or his own affiliations rules that he was given.And it cost a person his life as a direct result.
timschochet
Footballguy
I'm pretty sure of this too, actually.100% though? No.
BustedKnuckles
Footballguy
Some are, but not many. I think the point is that too many people argue their conclusion as fact, even when an alternate, reasonable explanation exists. Many of the anti-Zimmerman crowd have done this. On reflection...I shouldn't be surprised by that. There's more emotion in the anti-Zimmerman crowd. Emotion can cloud reason. I'm not saying their arguments have been unreasonable, because they are (usually) reasonable...but the inability to fairly consider the counter argument is interesting.Several times in here I have acknowledged good points against Zimmerman, and even stated my belief in his guilt.And the people that are FOR zimmerman arent doing the same thing'renesauz said:. We have actual video of the killer and not one sign of a struggle , yet people are still making excuses.This is an interesting experiment into the human psyche, people really do see what they want to no matter what .
and this i can respect. Like i had said in an earlier post, if zimmerman was as beat up as he claimed and shot trey because he was in fear of dying i would be the first person to give his version the credit it deserves.With that said i cant believe anything he said happened the way he said it happened, and yes im making that statement judged on the video of him in the police staion.BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
100%. Unequivocally.
SacramentoBob
Footballguy
But you (and others)have argued "facts" which are only valid if the assumptions are valid, and thrown away "facts" and conjectures which are only valid if your assumptions are invalid. (To be fair, Carolina has done this also.) Looking at things with assumptions already in place clouds your judgment.What I'm saying is that we should assume NOTHING, look at the verifiable facts, consider ALL possibilities, and then base a tentative conclusion on those facts and possibilites. What makes it even worse is the fact that our justice system, the greatest in the history of the world (supposedly) is founded on the presumption of innocence until proven guilty. That we pride ourselves on the fact that we place the burden of proof on the prosecution. Yet, in a case like this, we're all too happy to reverse that philosophy. That's very troubling to me.
Chaos Commish
Footballguy
Who knows. A barely busted nose that isn't displaced and a gash on the back of his head with what also might be some lumps could all have gone unnoticed in that poor photography.
Good morning. Couple things. I posted the 13 year old's testimony on video, but it still seemed like you guys were arguing about what he saw. He's pretty clear that he saw diddly.I am not FOR Zimmerman. I am FOR the truth whatever it is, and I am for due process. I am against the sensational rush to judgment prevalent in the media. Early in this thread, I was angry as could be that this young man was dead from a senseless gunshot. I called it cold blooded murder. Then I got wind of the media spin and decided to confront that still believing Zimmerman murdered him. Now I'm just not sure. I look forward to the trial. I hope he didn't murder him because that would be the most awful outcome. I think his story has some interesting support, primarily it appears to me that they both headed back towards his vehicle when Trayvon, according to my understanding of the neighborhood, literally was at the building his dad lives in at one point prior to the confrontation, or deliberately chose a path back towards the clubhouse. Why didn't he go inside? Why did he end up in a fight a couple hundred yards back towards the clubhouse?
Chaos Commish
Footballguy
102 haha. I was once worried we wouldn't make 100 by April 10th. Is 200 too much to ask?
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
Why would a struggle mean you cannot convict Zimmerman?'timschochet said:
BustedKnuckles
Footballguy
of course its a shadow, just watch the video. At no point does that ''shadow'' stay consistant.Someone freeze frames that one part and claims injury...its pretty sad actually.
identikit
Footballguy
Damned
Look before you leap....this keeps getting worse and worse for the Democrats who are trying to exploit this...
http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/29/second-trayvon-martin-twitter-feed-identified/
Give this another week and Obama is going to be on his knees praying for this to just go away.
http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/29/second-trayvon-martin-twitter-feed-identified/
Give this another week and Obama is going to be on his knees praying for this to just go away.
Charlie Frown
Footballguy
I haven't been following this thread closely anymore (too tiring). Arguing the other side doesn't mean we are for Zimmerman. It means we are for justice. No matter how it shakes out. If he is proved to be guilty of murder he deserves to hang. Nobody is going to happy regardless of how it ends.And the people that are FOR zimmerman arent doing the same thing'renesauz said:
My impression of Zimmerman is that he's a hothead whose heart was in the right place. He genuinely cared about his neighbors and was trying to do the right thing.But...he was still a hothead who had the potential to blow something up and cause trouble.
My impression of the kid is that he probably was a punk. He apparently had a thing against authority and was heading down the wrong path.
These are just my impressions....hardly proof of either, although evidance exists to suggest both impressions are correct.
Put the two together and you have a tinderbox. Neither one likely to back away from a fight.
A wash.
timschochet
Footballguy
Well first off, I try not not throw away any conjectures which challenge my opinion, and certainly not any facts. I am always willing to change my opinion over facts. But that doesn't mean I can't argue from a bias. Having a bias doesn't cloud my judgment- at least I hope it doesn't. My bias from the beginning of this case is that I am sympathetic to African-Americans who are angered by this because I've seen the #### they have to go through, and I believe they are badly treated by police in general in this society, and this incident may be an example of it.
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
My opinion is that Zimmerman is not necessarily a racist nor a cold blooded killer. He is an overzealous wannabe cop who should not have gotten out of his car, should not have followed this kid, and should not have pulled his gun (nor been carrying it as a neighborhood watchman).
The error, IMO, is with the police. This department seems to have a reputation. A bad one. And lived up to it here. Had Zimmerman, a man standing over a dead body who admitted to shooting him (regardless of his self defense claim) been arrested and held this media frenzy would not have gotten to this point. He would be out on bail, or the charges dropped after all the evidence brought in, or he could get his day in court. The cops on the scene shouldn't be making the self defense call, especially if the lead investigator doesn't believe the story.
Zimmerman deserves blame because he participated in racial profiling and ultimately pulled the trigger, but the failure of the police force here is the issue.
The error, IMO, is with the police. This department seems to have a reputation. A bad one. And lived up to it here. Had Zimmerman, a man standing over a dead body who admitted to shooting him (regardless of his self defense claim) been arrested and held this media frenzy would not have gotten to this point. He would be out on bail, or the charges dropped after all the evidence brought in, or he could get his day in court. The cops on the scene shouldn't be making the self defense call, especially if the lead investigator doesn't believe the story.
Zimmerman deserves blame because he participated in racial profiling and ultimately pulled the trigger, but the failure of the police force here is the issue.
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
That's your addition to this thread?
squistion
Footballguy
His tweets are irrelevant to what happened that night.
His addition is to keep posting Daily Caller links that imply this kid deserved to be killed because he had acted like a "thug".
timschochet
Footballguy
Fair question. If there is proof of a struggle, then there's no way for me to discount the possibilty that Zimmerman felt his life was in danger. I don't see how any reasonable person could discount this possibilty. The question of who began the struggle, and whether or not Zimmerman precipitated the whole thing by ignoring the advice of authorities and chasing Martin- all that is irrelevant IMO to the basic question: at some point during the struggle, could Zimmerman come to believe that his life was threatened? I don't see how we could ever prove otherwise beyond a reasonable doubt. And if the answer is yes, then the law as I understand it in Florida justifies Zimmerman's use of deadly force in that situation. So if you prove struggle to me, I would not only acquit Zimmerman, I would go so far as to say he should not even be arrested, because there's no honest means to convict him.
SacramentoBob
Footballguy
You see the cop who got suspended in Mississippi or thereabouts for tweeting that Martin deserved it?
Yeah. Predictable really.
SacramentoBob
Footballguy
What evidence was there that Martin had a predisposition towards violence?My impression of Zimmerman is that he's a hothead whose heart was in the right place. He genuinely cared about his neighbors and was trying to do the right thing.But...he was still a hothead who had the potential to blow something up and cause trouble.
My impression of the kid is that he probably was a punk. He apparently had a thing against authority and was heading down the wrong path.
These are just my impressions....hardly proof of either, although evidance exists to suggest both impressions are correct.
Put the two together and you have a tinderbox. Neither one likely to back away from a fight.
A wash.
http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/29/second-trayvon-martin-twitter-feed-identified/
The Daily Caller has identified a second Twitter handle that was used by the late Trayvon Martin during the last weeks of 2011. Tweeting in December under the name “T33ZY TAUGHT M3,” Martin sent a message that read, “Plzz shoot da #mf dat lied 2 u!”
It’s unclear who Martin intended the message for, or whether he intended it to be taken literally.
The photo Martin chose to represent himself on Twitter as “T33ZY TAUGHT M3″ depicts him in a black Polo cap, looking into the camera and extending his middle finger. The photo’s file name on Twitter’s server indicates that it was taken on the afternoon of June 17, 2010.
At least one website issued a retraction this week after mistakenly linking Martin to a middle-finger-salute image on a Facebook account corresponding to a Georgia teenager who shares Martin’s name. This image, however, was uploaded to Twitter by the teen himself.
On Tuesday TheDC published 152 pages of Martin’s Twitter activity that were retrieved using the social analytics product PeopleBrowsr.
Additional searches via the same website yielded the Twitter handle “T33ZY TAUGHT M3,” whose activity spanned just one month and ended shortly before Martin began tweeting as “NO_LIMIT_#####.” His Twitter activity under that newer screen name began with the tweet: “NEW NAME, NEW BACKGROUND, NEW TWEETCON, I MAKE CHANGS B4 NEW YEARS!”
Although The Daily Caller has not confirmed with Martin’s family that the earlier Twitter handle belonged to the 17-year-old, there is significant evidence for the conclusion.
A basic Google search for “@T33ZY_TAUGHT_M3″ on Wednesday indicated that corresponds to a defunct Twitter account once used by someone named “Tray.” The same name, entered into the Google Images search engine, generated the photo of Martin flipping off the camera.
Upper-arm tattoos visible in that photo match those depicted in the Trayvon Martin’s MySpace page, which TheDC has also identified. That account includes numerous features, including photos of family members, indicating that it belonged to the slain teen.
The Daily Caller has identified a second Twitter handle that was used by the late Trayvon Martin during the last weeks of 2011. Tweeting in December under the name “T33ZY TAUGHT M3,” Martin sent a message that read, “Plzz shoot da #mf dat lied 2 u!”
It’s unclear who Martin intended the message for, or whether he intended it to be taken literally.
The photo Martin chose to represent himself on Twitter as “T33ZY TAUGHT M3″ depicts him in a black Polo cap, looking into the camera and extending his middle finger. The photo’s file name on Twitter’s server indicates that it was taken on the afternoon of June 17, 2010.
At least one website issued a retraction this week after mistakenly linking Martin to a middle-finger-salute image on a Facebook account corresponding to a Georgia teenager who shares Martin’s name. This image, however, was uploaded to Twitter by the teen himself.
On Tuesday TheDC published 152 pages of Martin’s Twitter activity that were retrieved using the social analytics product PeopleBrowsr.
Additional searches via the same website yielded the Twitter handle “T33ZY TAUGHT M3,” whose activity spanned just one month and ended shortly before Martin began tweeting as “NO_LIMIT_#####.” His Twitter activity under that newer screen name began with the tweet: “NEW NAME, NEW BACKGROUND, NEW TWEETCON, I MAKE CHANGS B4 NEW YEARS!”
Although The Daily Caller has not confirmed with Martin’s family that the earlier Twitter handle belonged to the 17-year-old, there is significant evidence for the conclusion.
A basic Google search for “@T33ZY_TAUGHT_M3″ on Wednesday indicated that corresponds to a defunct Twitter account once used by someone named “Tray.” The same name, entered into the Google Images search engine, generated the photo of Martin flipping off the camera.
Upper-arm tattoos visible in that photo match those depicted in the Trayvon Martin’s MySpace page, which TheDC has also identified. That account includes numerous features, including photos of family members, indicating that it belonged to the slain teen.
Yeah...an idiot who deserved suspension. This kid was probably a punk...but he didn't deserve to die. A lot of punk thugs his age turn out OK in the long run.
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
Teenagers playing internet tough-guy thugs deserve to die.
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FavreCo
Footballguy
Arizona Ron
Footballguy
ok
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
He didn't even deserve to be confronted.
Thank god Tucker Carlson is hard at work to show us a picture a 15 year old took of himself flipping off the camera. I'm sure the esteemed posters in the FFA never did anything dumb like this when they were 15. Totally worthy of a new thread. In fact, this should be pinned. Good work Posty.
The twitter accounts of him swinging on a bus driver. Although not proven, it's pretty easy to see this when couple with the other stuff such as the women's jewelry (or do you really buy the story his friend gave him that stuff?)Again...it's my impression...some evidance but not proof. BUt we can say the same on Zimmerman's side. The evidance is stronger, but so is the evidance that his heart was in the right place.A wash.
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
Thanks for the new thread, timschochet.
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
That fear for life doesn't matter according to the law had Zimmerman been the initial aggressor and he did not physically withdraw AND make his intent to withdraw known. Additionally, if Martin was indeed scared that a man was following him (which would be shown through his cell phone call) and then saw that this man had a gun, he then would be the one fearing for his life initially and defending himself through a fight or struggle for the gun.A struggle in and of itself does not permit the use of deadly force by Zimmerman and the questions you deem irrelevant would certainly be relevant when it comes to state of mind and the application of the stand your ground law.
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
He was just like aiming to be a future president like W!
BustedKnuckles
Footballguy
only one had the luxury of knowing they had a gun and the other just had fear of the unkown. Having back up whether its having your buddies behind you or a gun makes people a lot more brazen.My impression of Zimmerman is that he's a hothead whose heart was in the right place. He genuinely cared about his neighbors and was trying to do the right thing.But...he was still a hothead who had the potential to blow something up and cause trouble.
My impression of the kid is that he probably was a punk. He apparently had a thing against authority and was heading down the wrong path.
These are just my impressions....hardly proof of either, although evidance exists to suggest both impressions are correct.
Put the two together and you have a tinderbox. Neither one likely to back away from a fight.
A wash.
Probably not, but certainly debateable. We still don't know what Zimerman really saw. Body language can tell you a lot, even when the person is doing "nothing (technically) wrong."
Chaos Commish
Footballguy
Maybe he confronted Zimmerman. I think the evidence supports that.
Apple Jack
Footballguy
Hey, thanks man.
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
Debateable?No it isn't., He walked to the convenience store and walked back.
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
Well, he is allowed to stand his ground if in fear of bodily harm by a big guy following him, right?
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
BS.Zimmerman hunted Trayvon down.
This confrontation should have never happened.
Chaos Commish
Footballguy
He walked to a convenience store which means we should have video of his purchase on their tape right? That should be time stamped, right? Had he just walked back, there never would have been a confrontation. George followed him damn near to the building Trayvon was staying in. Trayvon died closer to George's vehicle. How did this happen if he just walked back?
