What evidence besides Zimmerman's story supports that?
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Florida boy killed by Neighborhood Watch (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter Yenrub
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Chaos Commish
Footballguy
Sorry, you're wrong.
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
I am sure that Zimmerman didn't heed any of the best police advice or his own affiliations rules that he was given.
Clinton
Footballguy
Chaos Commish
Footballguy
I've tried to explain this unsuccessfully when I broke down the 4 minute Zimmerman phone call with the lay of the land and the location of the body. I suspect it's the reason they legally cannot arrest George. I have an old friend who is a detective in charge of his entire department and he concluded the same thing before I ever spoke to him. I'm a little busy this morning, but I will try to lay it out again today, when I get the chance.
BustedKnuckles
Footballguy
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/46890073#46890073
Zimmermans lawyer seems kind of clueless at times . He had just watched the police station video.
Zimmermans lawyer seems kind of clueless at times . He had just watched the police station video.
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Here's a perfect example of a poster who drew his conclusions early, set his assumptions, and won't even remotely consider any alternative explanations, even when reasonable conjecture and evidance exists to support a differant hypothesis.
Chaos Commish
Footballguy
True. Based on that your comment is true. But that isn't the legal issue of who confronted who and who initiated violence. Zimmerman acted foolishly, but that isn't illegal.
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
Yeah when he exited the car, against his own rules set... then chased the other guy, against the police offers advice... all the while carrying a gun, which was against his own affiliations rule set... I consider he was in hunt mode. I also consider any confrontation happening as a result of his causing it.
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SacramentoBob
Footballguy
Goes to his history of bad judgment.
timschochet
Footballguy
The latest information that just came out (the police department recommended arrest, but the atty general's office overruled them) certainly seems to contradict your suspicion here.
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
Sure he can, he can be criminally negligent. And that's before any violence ever occurs.
badmojo1006
Footballguy
A Wash? What the heck does that mean? The kid is dead and the shooter may get off. I hardly call that a wash
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
I hope there isn't a relationship between the DA and Zimmerman's father, who was a local judge.
timschochet
Footballguy
Because it's still the only conclusion that makes logical sense. Zimmerman is the one following Martin. Zimmerman is the one who called in to the authorities, and who complained on the phone that "they always get away." And yet given this, we're supposed to believe that Martin's the one who chased Zimmerman down from behind? Sure it's possible, but it's hardly plausible. And I just don't understand those of you who believe this storyline actually happened. Sorry, but it just seems so absurd to me. BigSteelThrill writes with conviction because his conclusion is the only one which makes reasonable sense based on what we know.
You could just link to what you posted before. I have no idea where you are getting these precise locations from.
I'd imagine it was more a determination that making an arrest that ends up not sticking would be a worse outcome than not making an arrest at all. If Zimmerman is arrested and released without charges, this will be a mess. If Zimmerman is arrested, goes to trial and is acquitted, this will be an even bigger mess. I'd hope that whoever made that call was taking those things into consideration and decided to make sure that the arrest could stick and result in a conviction before they made it.
FavreCo
Footballguy
Well, the shooter's life is already effectively over. The male version of Casey Anthony.
I'd imagine it was more a determination that making an arrest that ends up not sticking would be a worse outcome than not making an arrest at all. If Zimmerman is arrested and released without charges, this will be a mess. If Zimmerman is arrested, goes to trial and is acquitted, this will be an even bigger mess. I'd hope that whoever made that call was taking those things into consideration and decided to make sure that the arrest could stick and result in a conviction before they made it.
HellToupee
Footballguy
Teenagers playing internet tough-guy thugs deserve to die.
Don't hate the playa , hate the game. Hate the media for glorifying the thug cilture not the kid who just wants to seem cool
Chaos Commish
Footballguy
I'll stipulate all of that and still defend Zimmerman if Trayvon tracked him back towards his truck and kicked his ###.
Chaos Commish
Footballguy
I'll do a better job later. A lot better support for what I wrote on page 60 or so has come out this week, so rather than read that old post, wait for the new one to avoid unnecessary debate.
FavreCo
Footballguy
Other than the killer's statement, there is no proof of that.
FavreCo
Footballguy
Christo took that award long ago. 'Police would not necessarily have taken photos of Zimmerman's injuries' and the classic, 'Trayvon also has a history of violence due to the fact that he plays in a violent sport - football.' Paraphrased of course.BST is easily winning the battle for the most ridiculously over the top postings.
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BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
I know you love me and all jon...but what is over the top?BST is easily winning the battle for the most ridiculously over the top postings.
Those are all undeniable.is it because given all those undeniable facts I consider...
One of those is "over the top"?
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Chaos Commish
Footballguy
I disagree, but I'm too busy to explain atm. Play nice, everyone.
FWIW, I think Zimmerman is criminaly negligent...but I'm able to consider all the possibilites. It is very plausible that he never intended to "confront" Martin, had really "lost him" as has been reported, and was really heading back to his truck when Martin confronted him. Zimmerman would still be negligent, and possibly still be guilty of manslaughter (not sure about this), but he would NOT be guilty of Murder. What if Martin did start the physical altercation, did see the gun, and did tell Zimmerman "you're gonna die", and did attempt to take it from Zimmerman...leading Zimmerman to then fear for his life, fight for the gun, and shoot Trayvon. This scenario I've laid out doesn't seem likely to me...but it's certainly very plausible. It's every bit as plausible as your scenario where Zimm "hunts the kid down and shoots him in cold blood".You don't seem to be willing to consider alternate theories and ideas, even when those ideas are backed by real evidance (not necessarily proof, but evidance) and concrete reason. Your theories and conjectures have no more proof than the one I laid out above. Throw out the presumption of guilt and review all the facts carefully. At this point, I don't think there's definitive proof of innocence or guilt. (Although the police may have some).
Hopefully I'll catch that one because I don't know how you can establish anything but the location of death.
BustedKnuckles
Footballguy
and the pyhsical proof (video) doesnt back up that ### beating he supposably took.
FavreCo
Footballguy
There's nothing in that video. If that officer had seen something on the back of his head, he would have photographed it as evidence. He saw nothing cause there was nothing.
cstu
Footballguy
If someone is hunting someone down with the intent to kill them then they certainly aren't going to talk to the police while they do it (or at least they'd do it in a smarter way). My belief is that Zimmerman thought he could talk to Trayvon without it becoming a fight but when it did it either got so out of control that he freaked or he was so angry about being attacked that he shot Trayvon. We haven't seen any evidence that proves what happened in the key final moments.
BustedKnuckles
Footballguy
exactly...im in your camp Favreco
timschochet
Footballguy
If we can just put aside the legalese for a moment here and the "you can't prove that."- of course we can't prove it. But I think we can make some reasonable assumptions anyhow. And my reasonable assumption is that Zimmerman's story, in which he was viciously attacked from behind, punched in the face, slammed into the sidewalk, and threatened with death, is utter garbage. What stuns me is that anyone could take this story with more than a grain of salt. What do we have that would corroborate it?
1. There is a police report (which may actually be a second police report) which says that Zimmerman was bleeding and received treatment from an EMT. Yet there are no photos of this. Zimmerman showed no signs of bleeding or blood or grass stains in the video. And he did not request hospital treatment for his injuries (supposedly a broken nose.) If this truly happened , then at some point a doctor will have treated Zimmerman for that nose and that doctor will testify (even that won't be conclusive for some, but it would go a long way toward convincing me.)
2. There is a mysterious witness "John" whose testimony MAY corroborate Zimmerman on this. But even if John really exists, and his testimony is accurate, it's still not very clear what exactly happened.
3. There is the 13 year old kid who MAY have seen red on the ground. But if it's too dark for him to distinguish between an African-American and a Latino, how could he possibly distinguish the colors of clothing? Doesn't pass the smell test.
4. There is Chaos Commish's assertion that, based on Zimmerman's father's ttestimony and the location of the body, we can make the reasonable assumption that it was Zimmerman who was attacked. I'm still a little confused by this, but the lead investigator (and according to new reports, most or all of the police department) seems to contradict this idea.
So there you have it. That is all of the "evidence" which supposedly corroborates Zimmerman's version of events. At best, very very shaky. And yet some of you want to accept it like gospel, and for the life of me I just don't get it.
1. There is a police report (which may actually be a second police report) which says that Zimmerman was bleeding and received treatment from an EMT. Yet there are no photos of this. Zimmerman showed no signs of bleeding or blood or grass stains in the video. And he did not request hospital treatment for his injuries (supposedly a broken nose.) If this truly happened , then at some point a doctor will have treated Zimmerman for that nose and that doctor will testify (even that won't be conclusive for some, but it would go a long way toward convincing me.)
2. There is a mysterious witness "John" whose testimony MAY corroborate Zimmerman on this. But even if John really exists, and his testimony is accurate, it's still not very clear what exactly happened.
3. There is the 13 year old kid who MAY have seen red on the ground. But if it's too dark for him to distinguish between an African-American and a Latino, how could he possibly distinguish the colors of clothing? Doesn't pass the smell test.
4. There is Chaos Commish's assertion that, based on Zimmerman's father's ttestimony and the location of the body, we can make the reasonable assumption that it was Zimmerman who was attacked. I'm still a little confused by this, but the lead investigator (and according to new reports, most or all of the police department) seems to contradict this idea.
So there you have it. That is all of the "evidence" which supposedly corroborates Zimmerman's version of events. At best, very very shaky. And yet some of you want to accept it like gospel, and for the life of me I just don't get it.
timschochet
Footballguy
I never said that Zimmerman was hunting down Martin with the intent to kill. I said that he was the chaser, and Martin was the chasee. That remains, IMO, the only reasonable conclusion.
FavreCo
Footballguy
I know. I was just pointing out to the crowd that their ain't jack #### in that video to back a punch let alone an ### beating.
SacramentoBob
Footballguy
I would appreciate a link to any allegations about a 1st police report.
Parrothead
Footballguy
Could have made a fortune selling "Jump to Conclusions" mats in this thread..
My gut feeling? Guilty of involuntary* manslaughter, but since none of us were there or know what the police are holding as evidence, it is all
* I am willing to change that to voluntary if the evidence shows it.. (you know, that innocent until proven guilty thing)
see you at page 120
My gut feeling? Guilty of involuntary* manslaughter, but since none of us were there or know what the police are holding as evidence, it is all
* I am willing to change that to voluntary if the evidence shows it.. (you know, that innocent until proven guilty thing)
see you at page 120
BST, The over the top part is when you boldly state that Zimmerman hunted Treyvan down. You are making a lot of assumptions such as all Treyvan did was walk home. You completely dismiss every part of Zimmerman's story. This is not even close to as one-sided as you wish to spin it to match your ridiculously slanted world view.
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
Cool.I am also (in regards to the arrest video) willing to consider that the video and clothes argument (against Zimm) is very incomplete.
On the interview with NBC/Lauer it is stated that the video is 4 hours after the altercation.
You can also seethe police officer inspecting the back of Zimmermans head, as if he notices something.
And finally Lauer states that the officer inspects tehback of his head again as they the exit the door.
mad sweeney
Footballguy
It was before daylight savings time so it would be past dusk. As for light, even with sodium vapor lights (the crappy orange type) it'd be near impossible to distinguish between red and gray because there's very little red in the light given by sodiums. If the lights were LED, mercury vapor or moonlight, there's zero red in it and red clothing would appear colorless, like grey.'Carolina Hustler said:
FavreCo
Footballguy
Zimmerman-Bono is not getting off scott free. His life is now a living hell. Worst case, he will be sued in civil court and lose. There is no best case for this guy. Cop wannabe ####ed up bad & life now sucks for him.
timschochet
Footballguy
If it was light enough to see, he would have been able to tell if it was a black dude or a Latino dude on the ground. If he can't tell that, how the hell can he tell what color jacket the guy was wearing?
FavreCo
Footballguy
Is there audio with this? Maybe Zimmerman said, 'he slammed my back of my head into the concrete'. Officer looks, sees nothing.
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BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
But Zimm had already gone against every bit of police officer advice and the rule-sets by this point.He is making woefully bad decision after bad decision. And he is INTENT on tracking this guy ... which is why I say hunting/stalking.As I stated earlier in the thread -- If Im Trayvon, I am in fear for my life at the point the altercation occurred. One person is being reasonable and one is not.
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Nobody is taking it for gospel. It's shaky, but the burder of proof is generally on the prosecution. Right now, the prosecutions "proof" is every bit as shaky.Again, our system of justice asks us to presume innocence, and prove guilt. We can all agree Zimmerman's an idiot who shuld have never been trailing anybody on foot with a loaded gun. In my mind, that seems enough for some sort of criminal negligence charge, but it's hardly murder, and probably not manslaughter either. How the physical altercation started is key to those charges...and there's simply no good proof one way or the other on that.
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
jomar
Footballguy
pretty sure I remember reading that Trayvon had his hoody up because it was raining. I also recall from someone that he may have stopped walking home and one point and take refuge under an awning because it was raining so hard. who knows at this point but that is what we were told early on.
It's reasonable to conclude it started this way, but there's good reason (the 911 tapes, "I lost him", etc.) to think the roles may have reversed. Much like you can't shoot a robber who's already fleeing....you can't leave the aggressor labbel on Zimmerman if he was no longer chasing.
timschochet
Footballguy
I will repeat for the 100th time: based on what I know, I could not convict. No reasonable person, IMO, could. But we're not in a court of law here. This is an internet discussion forum. We can discuss what we THINK happened. And I simply cannot understand how you or anyone else can think that what Zimmerman says happened, happened. You can argue that it's possible. You can argue that there's no way to prove otherwise. You can argue that there's reasonable doubt. I agree with all of those points. But to take his story and say, "Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's the way it went down-" no ####### way.
