Florida boy killed by Neighborhood Watch (5 Viewers)

[jamny]

So it is a good thing to destroy a persons life because you want to expose a bad law? Jeez people. Isn't that what elections and debates are for? What a disgusting excuse and an abuse of power.

No, I think this could still be manslaughter and if it isn't and a side benefit is a discussion of a potentially bad law, so be it. I think Zimmerman will walk because of stand your ground but I'm not sure if it's justified. I still don't think if you get into a fight you should be able to shoot someone. Where's the line? If someone punches you in the face, you can shoot him? I could see if Trayvon had something like a rock or pipe in his hand but in just a brawl...no.Now, if it's decided that Trayvon went for Zimmerman's gun, then yes, end of story.

...or smashing someone's head with a block of concrete

...or trying to suffocate them

...not giving your victim a path to retreat

...causing great bodily harm causing victim to make screams for help for 40 seconds to a minute straight, as if he felt his life was threatened

But please compare this to "getting punched in the face"

I agree that there are many scenarios but the stand your ground rule seems to leave a huge gray area to an interpretation.

And lets not forget that Zimmerman wasn't a completely innocent person walking down the street. He went to confront the possible danger.

Speculation.

Did he not suspect Trayvon might be up to no good?

 

[Christo]

So it is a good thing to destroy a persons life because you want to expose a bad law? Jeez people. Isn't that what elections and debates are for? What a disgusting excuse and an abuse of power.

No, I think this could still be manslaughter and if it isn't and a side benefit is a discussion of a potentially bad law, so be it. I think Zimmerman will walk because of stand your ground but I'm not sure if it's justified. I still don't think if you get into a fight you should be able to shoot someone. Where's the line? If someone punches you in the face, you can shoot him? I could see if Trayvon had something like a rock or pipe in his hand but in just a brawl...no.Now, if it's decided that Trayvon went for Zimmerman's gun, then yes, end of story.

...or smashing someone's head with a block of concrete

...or trying to suffocate them

...not giving your victim a path to retreat

...causing great bodily harm causing victim to make screams for help for 40 seconds to a minute straight, as if he felt his life was threatened

But please compare this to "getting punched in the face"

I agree that there are many scenarios but the stand your ground rule seems to leave a huge gray area to an interpretation.

And lets not forget that Zimmerman wasn't a completely innocent person walking down the street. He went to confront the possible danger.

Speculation.

Did he not suspect Trayvon might be up to no good?

Unless Zimmerman has taken the stand and admitted that he did confront Martin because he suspected that Martin was a danger, it is speculation at this point.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

So it is a good thing to destroy a persons life because you want to expose a bad law? Jeez people. Isn't that what elections and debates are for? What a disgusting excuse and an abuse of power.

No, I think this could still be manslaughter and if it isn't and a side benefit is a discussion of a potentially bad law, so be it. I think Zimmerman will walk because of stand your ground but I'm not sure if it's justified. I still don't think if you get into a fight you should be able to shoot someone. Where's the line? If someone punches you in the face, you can shoot him? I could see if Trayvon had something like a rock or pipe in his hand but in just a brawl...no.Now, if it's decided that Trayvon went for Zimmerman's gun, then yes, end of story.

...or smashing someone's head with a block of concrete

...or trying to suffocate them

...not giving your victim a path to retreat

...causing great bodily harm causing victim to make screams for help for 40 seconds to a minute straight, as if he felt his life was threatened

But please compare this to "getting punched in the face"

I agree that there are many scenarios but the stand your ground rule seems to leave a huge gray area to an interpretation.And lets not forget that Zimmerman wasn't a completely innocent person walking down the street. He went to confront the possible danger.

Speculation.

Did he not suspect Trayvon might be up to no good?

 

[jamny]

So it is a good thing to destroy a persons life because you want to expose a bad law? Jeez people. Isn't that what elections and debates are for? What a disgusting excuse and an abuse of power.

No, I think this could still be manslaughter and if it isn't and a side benefit is a discussion of a potentially bad law, so be it. I think Zimmerman will walk because of stand your ground but I'm not sure if it's justified. I still don't think if you get into a fight you should be able to shoot someone. Where's the line? If someone punches you in the face, you can shoot him? I could see if Trayvon had something like a rock or pipe in his hand but in just a brawl...no.Now, if it's decided that Trayvon went for Zimmerman's gun, then yes, end of story.

...or smashing someone's head with a block of concrete

...or trying to suffocate them

...not giving your victim a path to retreat

...causing great bodily harm causing victim to make screams for help for 40 seconds to a minute straight, as if he felt his life was threatened

But please compare this to "getting punched in the face"

I agree that there are many scenarios but the stand your ground rule seems to leave a huge gray area to an interpretation.And lets not forget that Zimmerman wasn't a completely innocent person walking down the street. He went to confront the possible danger.

Speculation.

Did he not suspect Trayvon might be up to no good?

Nice discussion.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

So it is a good thing to destroy a persons life because you want to expose a bad law? Jeez people. Isn't that what elections and debates are for? What a disgusting excuse and an abuse of power.

No, I think this could still be manslaughter and if it isn't and a side benefit is a discussion of a potentially bad law, so be it. I think Zimmerman will walk because of stand your ground but I'm not sure if it's justified. I still don't think if you get into a fight you should be able to shoot someone. Where's the line? If someone punches you in the face, you can shoot him? I could see if Trayvon had something like a rock or pipe in his hand but in just a brawl...no.Now, if it's decided that Trayvon went for Zimmerman's gun, then yes, end of story.

...or smashing someone's head with a block of concrete

...or trying to suffocate them

...not giving your victim a path to retreat

...causing great bodily harm causing victim to make screams for help for 40 seconds to a minute straight, as if he felt his life was threatened

But please compare this to "getting punched in the face"

I agree that there are many scenarios but the stand your ground rule seems to leave a huge gray area to an interpretation.And lets not forget that Zimmerman wasn't a completely innocent person walking down the street. He went to confront the possible danger.

Speculation.

Did he not suspect Trayvon might be up to no good?

Nice discussion.

good luck with that

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

So it is a good thing to destroy a persons life because you want to expose a bad law? Jeez people. Isn't that what elections and debates are for? What a disgusting excuse and an abuse of power.

No, I think this could still be manslaughter and if it isn't and a side benefit is a discussion of a potentially bad law, so be it. I think Zimmerman will walk because of stand your ground but I'm not sure if it's justified. I still don't think if you get into a fight you should be able to shoot someone. Where's the line? If someone punches you in the face, you can shoot him? I could see if Trayvon had something like a rock or pipe in his hand but in just a brawl...no.Now, if it's decided that Trayvon went for Zimmerman's gun, then yes, end of story.

...or smashing someone's head with a block of concrete

...or trying to suffocate them

...not giving your victim a path to retreat

...causing great bodily harm causing victim to make screams for help for 40 seconds to a minute straight, as if he felt his life was threatened

But please compare this to "getting punched in the face"

I agree that there are many scenarios but the stand your ground rule seems to leave a huge gray area to an interpretation.And lets not forget that Zimmerman wasn't a completely innocent person walking down the street. He went to confront the possible danger.

Speculation.

Did he not suspect Trayvon might be up to no good?

Nice discussion.

Stinky bait. Try catching a fish with a better line.

The State's "star witness" Miss Rachel DiDi Diamond Jeantel even said Martin was at the back of his house and then he approached Zimmerman and verbally confronted him. Anything beyond that is speculation, it's really not that complicated.

 

[Johnnymac]

It was a very good day for the defense.

 

[Gawain]

Isn't the defense going to put up the MMA gym instructor who will basically state that Zimmerman was a joke when it came to fighting?

 

[timschochet]

Question about stand your ground- someone earlier in this thread asserted that SYG had to be argued in the prelim and could not be argued at trial, and that Zimmerman is claiming straight self defense and not SYG. Is this true, and what is the difference?

 

[Rayderr]

It was a very good day for the defense.

Outside of the opening knock knock joke, it was a good week for the defense.

 

[Gawain]

Fox News just had a prosecutor on who stated that his injuries weren't life threatening, totally missing the point that he needs a reasonable belief he'll end up with life threatening injuries because of the immediate situation.

 

[Mr Two Cents]

I thought his is not a SYG defense it is a self-defense case?

 

[timschochet]

Fox News just had a prosecutor on who stated that his injuries weren't life threatening, totally missing the point that he needs a reasonable belief he'll end up with life threatening injuries because of the immediate situation.

Actually it's an important distinction, because while I agree with your point, how would the jury learn of it without Zimmerman taking the stand?

 

[The Commish]

So what does it mean, if anything that this guy was partaking in / practicing MMA three days a week If you guys covered it, I apologize. Been in and out of meetings in the last couple hours.

I know fat guys who go to the gym 3 days a week. Yet, they don't lose weight. While not the same, back in my pro wrestling days, I know people who trained several days a week but couldn't wrestle worth ####. Ever know anyone taking karate that takes forever to get their yellow belt? How about a person taking music lessons yet still can't hit the right notes?

Just because you're practicing something doesn't mean you're good at it.

I don't disagree actually. I was asking more because of the audience here in the FFA.

 

[Rayderr]

Question about stand your ground- someone earlier in this thread asserted that SYG had to be argued in the prelim and could not be argued at trial, and that Zimmerman is claiming straight self defense and not SYG. Is this true, and what is the difference?

HE could've had a seperate SYG hearing. If the judge decided that SYG applied, then Zimmerman could not face criminal or murder charges. But had he lost, it would've been grave as it removes it from the defense argument in the criminal proceedings plus the defense would've showed a lot of their cards.

But by waiving the seperate trial, they can use it in this trial.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

Question about stand your ground- someone earlier in this thread asserted that SYG had to be argued in the prelim and could not be argued at trial, and that Zimmerman is claiming straight self defense and not SYG. Is this true, and what is the difference?

Kendall Coffey, a former federal prosecutor in Florida and an NBC News legal analyst, said before the hearing that it would be “very strategic” for the defense to waive the “stand your ground” hearing before trial.

“That way, they’re not going to have to show all their cards, and they avoid the risk that a judge might reject the self-defense claim,” he told TODAY.

 

[Gawain]

Al Sharpton is to black people, what David Duke is to white people.

 

[timschochet]

Thx. The next question of course, is can they offer SYG as a defense without direct testimony from Zimmerman?

 

[Joe McGee]

Question about stand your ground- someone earlier in this thread asserted that SYG had to be argued in the prelim and could not be argued at trial, and that Zimmerman is claiming straight self defense and not SYG. Is this true, and what is the difference?

Kendall Coffey, a former federal prosecutor in Florida and an NBC News legal analyst, said before the hearing that it would be “very strategic” for the defense to waive the “stand your ground” hearing before trial.

“That way, they’re not going to have to show all their cards, and they avoid the risk that a judge might reject the self-defense claim,” he told TODAY.

This judge sure comes across as unsympathetic to the defense (I don't know enough about trials to say she's right or wrong in her decisions or attitude). I can see why the defense did that.

 

[Christo]

Thx. The next question of course, is can they offer SYG as a defense without direct testimony from Zimmerman?

OMG, they said before the trial they weren't relying on SYG. It's a straight self-defense claim.

 

[Gawain]

Thx. The next question of course, is can they offer SYG as a defense without direct testimony from Zimmerman?

OMG, they said before the trial they weren't relying on SYG. It's a straight self-defense claim.

Yeah, but tim doesn't like Stand Your Ground, so obviously it has to come in.

 

[The Commish]

So what does it mean, if anything that this guy was partaking in / practicing MMA three days a week If you guys covered it, I apologize. Been in and out of meetings in the last couple hours.

He wasn't very good at it.

Tend to agree here. It's now come to light that the defense is asking us to believe that a guy practicing MMA was in fear for his life in a fist fight so he shot the guy. Is that an unfair characterization?

Yes. I don't recall the testimony indicating how long he had been practicing MMA. Do you? What if it was only a couple of weeks? MMA is a broad term as well. Without more details in to the specifics of his training it's hard to formulate an opinion on whether he was learning anything applicable to an impromptu street fight.

I'm really not sure how knowing how long he had been practicing is relevant to the characterization I presented. If it makes you feel better, you can put "novice" MMA guy in there....I don't see how it changes much. I don't think it's inaccurate to say he was practicing MMA. I'd understand your issue if I suggested he was an expert or something.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

So what does it mean, if anything that this guy was partaking in / practicing MMA three days a week If you guys covered it, I apologize. Been in and out of meetings in the last couple hours.

He wasn't very good at it.

Tend to agree here. It's now come to light that the defense is asking us to believe that a guy practicing MMA was in fear for his life in a fist fight so he shot the guy. Is that an unfair characterization?

Yes. I don't recall the testimony indicating how long he had been practicing MMA. Do you? What if it was only a couple of weeks? MMA is a broad term as well. Without more details in to the specifics of his training it's hard to formulate an opinion on whether he was learning anything applicable to an impromptu street fight.

I'm really not sure how knowing how long he had been practicing is relevant to the characterization I presented. If it makes you feel better, you can put "novice" MMA guy in there....I don't see how it changes much. I don't think it's inaccurate to say he was practicing MMA. I'd understand your issue if I suggested he was an expert or something.

I believe his trainer was on record saying he would never think of putting George in the ring since he would get his ### handed to him, his training was probably more related to developing his core and to lose weight. I wouldn't expect him to be on the State's witness list.

 

[timschochet]

Thx. The next question of course, is can they offer SYG as a defense without direct testimony from Zimmerman?

OMG, they said before the trial they weren't relying on SYG. It's a straight self-defense claim.

OK, I just asked that question, and that's not the answer I got. I was told that they still could claim SYG. It's also being discussed on nearly every network as a "possible" defense.

Personally, I'm still not 100% sure about the difference between SYG and straight self-defense anyhow. Can anyone explain this?

 

[timschochet]

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/entertainment/blogs/tv-guy/os-george-zimmerman-will-he-or-wont-he-20130628,0,4732985.post

Will George Zimmerman take the stand or not at his murder trial?

WFTV-Channel 9 legal analyst Bill Sheaffer has been adamant that Zimmerman will have to testify. Sheaffer repeated that view after Jonathan Good testified Friday morning. Witness Good didn't give a picture that Zimmerman was justified in using deadly force in shooting Trayvon Martin, Sheaffer said.

Moderator Greg Warmoth wondered about photographs of a bloodied Zimmerman after the fight with Trayvon. Zimmerman is charged with second-degree murder in Trayvon's fatal shooting.

"There is no doubt that George Zimmerman was getting a whooping" from Martin, Sheaffer said. "The question is: Was it a whooping so severe that a reasonable person would have been in fear of death or great bodily harm? You get a broken nose, does that put you in fear of great bodily harm or death?"

Zimmerman would need to take the stand and say he was in fear, Sheaffer argued. Without Zimmerman, the defense would be taking a huge risk, because there is no evidence that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman, Sheaffer said.

Those comments were prompting viewers to bet Sheaffer steak dinners that he was wrong.

Alisia Adamson, a legal analyst for WESH-Channel 2, agreed that Zimmerman would take the stand. "He's going to have to explain what made him get to the position he was in that he felt he needed to shoot and kill Trayvon Martin," Adamson said. It was risky, she added, but the jurors would want to hear from him.

Richard Hornsby, another legal analyst for WESH, predicted that Zimmerman would not make a good witness when prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda questions him.

Jeff Deen, also a WESH analyst, said: "The whole trial will become how he handles his testimony, and his testimony with his lawyer will be easy. That cross-examination, if you think Rachel Jeantel took a long time, we may be here all summer if George Zimmerman takes the stand."

Defense attorney Mark O'Mara doesn't want Zimmerman to testify, Hornsby said. "He would be such a terrible witness," he added. "If Mark O'Mara lets him testify, it'll only be because he 100 percent has to. If there's even a doubt he doesn't have to testify, we don't see George Zimmerman."

What do you think?

 

[pittstownkiller]

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/entertainment/blogs/tv-guy/os-george-zimmerman-will-he-or-wont-he-20130628,0,4732985.post

Will George Zimmerman take the stand or not at his murder trial?

WFTV-Channel 9 legal analyst Bill Sheaffer has been adamant that Zimmerman will have to testify. Sheaffer repeated that view after Jonathan Good testified Friday morning. Witness Good didn't give a picture that Zimmerman was justified in using deadly force in shooting Trayvon Martin, Sheaffer said.

Moderator Greg Warmoth wondered about photographs of a bloodied Zimmerman after the fight with Trayvon. Zimmerman is charged with second-degree murder in Trayvon's fatal shooting.

"There is no doubt that George Zimmerman was getting a whooping" from Martin, Sheaffer said. "The question is: Was it a whooping so severe that a reasonable person would have been in fear of death or great bodily harm? You get a broken nose, does that put you in fear of great bodily harm or death?"

Zimmerman would need to take the stand and say he was in fear, Sheaffer argued. Without Zimmerman, the defense would be taking a huge risk, because there is no evidence that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman, Sheaffer said.

Those comments were prompting viewers to bet Sheaffer steak dinners that he was wrong.

Alisia Adamson, a legal analyst for WESH-Channel 2, agreed that Zimmerman would take the stand. "He's going to have to explain what made him get to the position he was in that he felt he needed to shoot and kill Trayvon Martin," Adamson said. It was risky, she added, but the jurors would want to hear from him.

Richard Hornsby, another legal analyst for WESH, predicted that Zimmerman would not make a good witness when prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda questions him.

Jeff Deen, also a WESH analyst, said: "The whole trial will become how he handles his testimony, and his testimony with his lawyer will be easy. That cross-examination, if you think Rachel Jeantel took a long time, we may be here all summer if George Zimmerman takes the stand."

Defense attorney Mark O'Mara doesn't want Zimmerman to testify, Hornsby said. "He would be such a terrible witness," he added. "If Mark O'Mara lets him testify, it'll only be because he 100 percent has to. If there's even a doubt he doesn't have to testify, we don't see George Zimmerman."

What do you think?

More importantly, what does Jonathan McDaniel - host of VH1's "Hit the Floor" - think?

 

[avoiding injuries]

I think these "analysts" need to say this in order to keep the suspense going in this trial.

George will not testify and I guarantee he did not take up any of the viewers up on their bets.

 

[timschochet]

Dammit. What's wrong with a little suspense?

C'mon George, you know you want to take the stand. Screw your attorney- what the #### does he know? The jury hasn't heard your story. You need to tell them! Otherwise they might believe Didi.

Please do this for me.

 

[ArbyMelt]

Oops

https://mobile.twitter.com/EvanBenn/status/350696981242445825/photo/1

Eta: might be fake account, but of course CNN shows pic without authenticating

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

Oops

https://mobile.twitter.com/EvanBenn/status/350696981242445825/photo/1

Eta: might be fake account, but of course CNN shows pic without authenticating

DOMA?

 

[Gawain]

Oops

https://mobile.twitter.com/EvanBenn/status/350696981242445825/photo/1

Eta: might be fake account, but of course CNN shows pic without authenticating

2

1

3

 

[The Commish]

Oops

https://mobile.twitter.com/EvanBenn/status/350696981242445825/photo/1

Eta: might be fake account, but of course CNN shows pic without authenticating

ooooof....hahahahha...perfect end to the week.

 

[Joe McGee]

Not that it really matters now, but if Rachel Jeantel could read and write, why did she have someone else write the letter to Trayvon's mom? Why didn't she just write it herself in manuscript? She may be a child left behind (even though she is 19).

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Later, prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda asked whether it was possible a police officer could have used the term "ground and pound" before he did.

"It's possible," Good said.

De la Rionda honed in on Good's earlier statement that he couldn't confirm the person on top was hitting the other person.

"Correct," Good said.

Still clinging to hope I see... lol.. The guy saw his arms moving, but it was dark and he couldn't see the connection per-say, and then there are the injuries.. It's safe to assume those arms moving, that looked like they were hitting Zimmerman, were indeed hitting zimmerman, whether it was too dark to see it or not..Or maybe Martin was just giving him a face massage after Zimmerman accidentally punched him self in the face and banged his own head on the ground..

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Fox News just had a prosecutor on who stated that his injuries weren't life threatening, totally missing the point that he needs a reasonable belief he'll end up with life threatening injuries because of the immediate situation.

Some of the guys you see on these news shows know this, but they need to milk this situation for all it's worth, they are paid to drag out the speculation so people keep watching..

 

[tdoss]

Have they dismissed this waste of a case yet?

 

[jamny]

Have they dismissed this waste of a case yet?

No.

Why do you think it's a waste of a case?

 

[Ballstein]

maybe someone can answer this. We know Zimmerman had injuries. Besides the gunshot wound, did travon have any other injuries??

 

[Gawain]

maybe someone can answer this. We know Zimmerman had injuries. Besides the gunshot wound, did travon have any other injuries??

It's been posted many times in this thread, but his only other listed injury was a small abrasion on a knuckle that the defense claims is consistent with punching the ever-living #### out of a short obese man who couldn't fight his way out of a wet paper bag.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

maybe someone can answer this. We know Zimmerman had injuries. Besides the gunshot wound, did travon have any other injuries??

It's been posted many times in this thread, but his only other listed injury was a small abrasion on a knuckle that the defense claims is consistent with punching the ever-living #### out of a short obese man who couldn't fight his way out of a wet paper bag.

I believe the report was "broken skin on his knuckles." rather than "a small abrasion on a knuckle"

You can tell the biases in here by which guys are exaggerating or minimizing the reports...

 

[Ballstein]

From A totally neutral perspective, if I was on the jury I cannot convict Zimmerman. Travon supporters, gimee some evidence.

 

[jamny]

From A totally neutral perspective, if I was on the jury I cannot convict Zimmerman. Travon supporters, gimee some evidence.

Are we talking 2nd degree murder or manslaughter?

 

[Carolina Hustler]

From A totally neutral perspective, if I was on the jury I cannot convict Zimmerman. Travon supporters, gimee some evidence.

Are we talking 2nd degree murder or manslaughter?

What is the criteria that has to be met in order to secure a manslaughter conviction?

 

[Carolina Hustler]

I'm not sure a manslaughter charge would survive Zimmermans self defense claim but it could.. A lot more likely than Murder2

 

[jamny]

From A totally neutral perspective, if I was on the jury I cannot convict Zimmerman. Travon supporters, gimee some evidence.

Are we talking 2nd degree murder or manslaughter?

What is the criteria that has to be met in order to secure a manslaughter conviction?

I'm not sure where the line is with the stand your ground law. I think he'll get off on that.

 

[CurlyNight]

I think it'll come down to if no one saw it from the beginning to really see who started it then you can't say without reasonable doubt that Z is guilty. If you take it as the start being Z getting out of his truck and following him, then he's guilty. Otherwise how can anyone really say who started it and if such a force was needed because Z feared for his life. If someone begins to hit my head into the concrete, I won't be giving it a little more time to see if something worse is coming... It was dark, both are on top/bottom rolling around. Everyone says could be, not positive.. I highly doubt he would get M2. I think if he's convicted which thus far I'd be surprised, it would be manslaughter.

 

[Lutherman2112]

From A totally neutral perspective, if I was on the jury I cannot convict Zimmerman. Travon supporters, gimee some evidence.

Are we talking 2nd degree murder or manslaughter?

What is the criteria that has to be met in order to secure a manslaughter conviction?

I'm not sure where the line is with the stand your ground law. I think he'll get off on that.

As far as I know, stand your ground is out. Lawyers for the defense waived the pretrial hearing where the stand your ground defense is made. A ruling for the accused meant that no criminal trial (or civil?) would be held.

I could be wrong, but I think the defendant still retains the right for a stand your ground hearing during this case; not sure of the expiration date.

 

[Lutherman2112]

Does anyone know where Zimmerman's vehicle was parked?

 

[jon_mx]

Stand your ground has a few aspects too it. One it gives you the right to a pre-trial motion which would make you immune to prosecution or civil cases. Two it says you do not have to retreat if you are not breaking the law and are allowed where you are. So Zimmerman already passed on the first part, but there are aspects of it which will help his self-defense case.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

Does anyone know where Zimmerman's vehicle was parked?

http://youtu.be/ewd1l6YWnW4

This will give you his location as well as the trucks....i noticed something while watching this ...zimmy says he didnt have an address to give the police because it was the back of the buildings...yet the building to his right as he walks up the path are the fronts with addresses...why wouldnt he just use those? because that would mean he only went up the path to get trey...another lie from zimmy.