Florida boy killed by Neighborhood Watch (1 Viewer)

[SaintsInDome2006]

Obama comparing himself to Martin is about the most absurd thing in the world, totally self serving invented.

Obama at Martin's age:

- In multicultural Hawaii

- Son of an international aid worker, grew up overseas, no parents at home.

- Never knew his father, who did not stick around for a cup of coffee.

- Raised by white grandmother who was a bank vice president and white grandfather who owned a furniture store.

- Upper class to middle upper class upbringing.

- White & Hawaiin friends

- Half-white American by way of Kansas and WA State (mother), half-Kenyan (father), zero family history with African-American experience of segregation and slavery

- Attended elite upper class expensive prep school

- slacker, smoked the weed, but nonetheless ticketed for expensive exclusive college and grad school future, would one day work in international finance and high end law firm in Chicago

- Not a whiff of trouble in his youth.

Martin compares with these, how?????

Is your point that Zimmerman had all this info?

Well if you take the point of view of those who want a DOJ charge, one has to make the point that Martin held certain beliefs and instincts (aka alleged profiling) and that Martin did as well (ie he came back to defend himself allegedly).

What Obama said in attempting to put himself in Martin's shoes has abolutely nothing to do with Zimmerman.

 

[jamny]

Damn. Some of these posts are just amazing. You guys want me out of this thread, I'm out again. I can't deal with Mr. Two Cents, Max Threshold and those that agree with them. You win guys.

Once again, you don't need to announce your exit from a thread.

 

[drummer]

Obama comparing himself to Martin is about the most absurd thing in the world, totally self serving invented.

Obama at Martin's age:

- In multicultural Hawaii

- Son of an international aid worker, grew up overseas, no parents at home.

- Never knew his father, who did not stick around for a cup of coffee.

- Raised by white grandmother who was a bank vice president and white grandfather who owned a furniture store.

- Upper class to middle upper class upbringing.

- White & Hawaiin friends

- Half-white American by way of Kansas and WA State (mother), half-Kenyan (father), zero family history with African-American experience of segregation and slavery

- Attended elite upper class expensive prep school

- slacker, smoked the weed, but nonetheless ticketed for expensive exclusive college and grad school future, would one day work in international finance and high end law firm in Chicago

- Not a whiff of trouble in his youth.

Martin compares with these, how?????

Obama was pointing out he was profiled for being black, as Martin was profiled by Zimmerman, he didn't claim they had identical backgrounds.

OH GOODY. I got to use the word Kenya! Just wait until I show my conservative friendz!

I think this is the comment I meant to respond to.

My point is he had no relatives of any kind (and certainly none he knew growing up if you include the African colonial experience) affected by segregation, slavery, or oppression in any way.

You don't need to have all that to experience prejudice or any kind of racism.

I was merely speaking to the reference that his father was Kenyan, which he was.

As to your second point, actually cultural heritage is a big, big part of this. How Martin reacted, how Zimmerman (who is half Cuban) reacted, how blacks are reacting to the verdict, and as to Obama his experiences have everything to do with his attempt to place himself in Martibn's shoes - I'd say Obama's background and experiences versus Martin's have a lot to do with that particular aspect of what he said.

I think Zimmerman is half Peruvian, not half Cuban. As to the rest, again all you need is a skin color or ethnic background to experience prejudice and racism. If you grew up with Obama, then you have more than a hypothesis of his experience.

 

[Mr Two Cents]

Damn. Some of these posts are just amazing. You guys want me out of this thread, I'm out again. I can't deal with Mr. Two Cents, Max Threshold and those that agree with them. You win guys.

Finally, but I bet your lying. There is no way you can keep away because you can't handle the truth without your excuses and guilt taking over.

 

[Joe McGee]

Obama comparing himself to Martin is about the most absurd thing in the world, totally self serving invented.

Obama at Martin's age:

- In multicultural Hawaii

- Son of an international aid worker, grew up overseas, no parents at home.

- Never knew his father, who did not stick around for a cup of coffee.

- Raised by white grandmother who was a bank vice president and white grandfather who owned a furniture store.

- Upper class to middle upper class upbringing.

- White & Hawaiin friends

- Half-white American by way of Kansas and WA State (mother), half-Kenyan (father), zero family history with African-American experience of segregation and slavery

- Attended elite upper class expensive prep school

- slacker, smoked the weed, but nonetheless ticketed for expensive exclusive college and grad school future, would one day work in international finance and high end law firm in Chicago

- Not a whiff of trouble in his youth.

Martin compares with these, how?????

Obama was pointing out he was profiled for being black, as Martin was profiled by Zimmerman, he didn't claim they had identical backgrounds.

OH GOODY. I got to use the word Kenya! Just wait until I show my conservative friendz!

I think this is the comment I meant to respond to.

My point is he had no relatives of any kind (and certainly none he knew growing up if you include the African colonial experience) affected by segregation, slavery, or oppression in any way.

You don't need to have all that to experience prejudice or any kind of racism.

I was merely speaking to the reference that his father was Kenyan, which he was.

As to your second point, actually cultural heritage is a big, big part of this. How Martin reacted, how Zimmerman (who is half Cuban) reacted, how blacks are reacting to the verdict, and as to Obama his experiences have everything to do with his attempt to place himself in Martibn's shoes - I'd say Obama's background and experiences versus Martin's have a lot to do with that particular aspect of what he said.

I think Zimmerman is half Peruvian, not half Cuban. As to the rest, again all you need is a skin color or ethnic background to experience prejudice and racism. If you grew up with Obama, then you have more than a hypothesis of his experience.

I wasn't born in Kenya. I don't know what Obama has or hasn't experienced.

 

[drummer]

Obama comparing himself to Martin is about the most absurd thing in the world, totally self serving invented.

Obama at Martin's age:

- In multicultural Hawaii

- Son of an international aid worker, grew up overseas, no parents at home.

- Never knew his father, who did not stick around for a cup of coffee.

- Raised by white grandmother who was a bank vice president and white grandfather who owned a furniture store.

- Upper class to middle upper class upbringing.

- White & Hawaiin friends

- Half-white American by way of Kansas and WA State (mother), half-Kenyan (father), zero family history with African-American experience of segregation and slavery

- Attended elite upper class expensive prep school

- slacker, smoked the weed, but nonetheless ticketed for expensive exclusive college and grad school future, would one day work in international finance and high end law firm in Chicago

- Not a whiff of trouble in his youth.

Martin compares with these, how?????

Obama was pointing out he was profiled for being black, as Martin was profiled by Zimmerman, he didn't claim they had identical backgrounds.

OH GOODY. I got to use the word Kenya! Just wait until I show my conservative friendz!

I think this is the comment I meant to respond to.

My point is he had no relatives of any kind (and certainly none he knew growing up if you include the African colonial experience) affected by segregation, slavery, or oppression in any way.

You don't need to have all that to experience prejudice or any kind of racism.

I was merely speaking to the reference that his father was Kenyan, which he was.

As to your second point, actually cultural heritage is a big, big part of this. How Martin reacted, how Zimmerman (who is half Cuban) reacted, how blacks are reacting to the verdict, and as to Obama his experiences have everything to do with his attempt to place himself in Martibn's shoes - I'd say Obama's background and experiences versus Martin's have a lot to do with that particular aspect of what he said.

I think Zimmerman is half Peruvian, not half Cuban. As to the rest, again all you need is a skin color or ethnic background to experience prejudice and racism. If you grew up with Obama, then you have more than a hypothesis of his experience.

I wasn't born in Kenya. I don't know what Obama has or hasn't experienced.

Good for you. I hear Kenya is a mutha around this time of year.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Obama comparing himself to Martin is about the most absurd thing in the world, totally self serving invented.

Obama at Martin's age:

- In multicultural Hawaii

- Son of an international aid worker, grew up overseas, no parents at home.

- Never knew his father, who did not stick around for a cup of coffee.

- Raised by white grandmother who was a bank vice president and white grandfather who owned a furniture store.

- Upper class to middle upper class upbringing.

- White & Hawaiin friends

- Half-white American by way of Kansas and WA State (mother), half-Kenyan (father), zero family history with African-American experience of segregation and slavery

- Attended elite upper class expensive prep school

- slacker, smoked the weed, but nonetheless ticketed for expensive exclusive college and grad school future, would one day work in international finance and high end law firm in Chicago

- Not a whiff of trouble in his youth.

Martin compares with these, how?????

Obama was pointing out he was profiled for being black, as Martin was profiled by Zimmerman, he didn't claim they had identical backgrounds.

OH GOODY. I got to use the word Kenya! Just wait until I show my conservative friendz!

I think this is the comment I meant to respond to.

My point is he had no relatives of any kind (and certainly none he knew growing up if you include the African colonial experience) affected by segregation, slavery, or oppression in any way.

You don't need to have all that to experience prejudice or any kind of racism.

I was merely speaking to the reference that his father was Kenyan, which he was.

As to your second point, actually cultural heritage is a big, big part of this. How Martin reacted, how Zimmerman (who is half Cuban) reacted, how blacks are reacting to the verdict, and as to Obama his experiences have everything to do with his attempt to place himself in Martibn's shoes - I'd say Obama's background and experiences versus Martin's have a lot to do with that particular aspect of what he said.

I think Zimmerman is half Peruvian, not half Cuban. As to the rest, again all you need is a skin color or ethnic background to experience prejudice and racism. If you grew up with Obama, then you have more than a hypothesis of his experience.

Gotcha and since you grew up with Obama you know his comments are valid. The man has written more than one book about how he grew up and just like every other president his past is extremely well documented. Really I see no way Obama and Martin could share even a scintilla of common mental or cultural similarity and what's more he probably has more in common with a George Zimmerman if anything.

From wiki:

George Michael Zimmerman was born on October 5, 1983, in Manassas, Virginia,[32] and is the son of Gladys (née Mesa) Zimmerman, who was born in Peru,[33] and Robert Zimmerman, Sr., a retired Virginia magistrate.[34][35] He was raised as a Catholic,[33] in a family that his father has described as "multiracial"; his father is a White American of German descent[36] and his mother is Peruvian with some black ancestry through her Afro-Peruvian maternal grandfather.[33][Note 3] Zimmerman's voter registration record lists him as Hispanic and a registered Democrat.[37][38]

That's a lot closer to Obama than Martin.

If the question is ability to be profiled, well heck I'm guessing as a "Latino" living in Florida we might as well throw Zimmerman into that mix as well.

 

[Johnnymac]

The best part about the speech, imo, is that he then acknowledged the fact that there is a violence problem among African-Americans.

This has been repeated by more than one person. I'm guessing it's annoying to black people that every time they want to discuss institutionalized racism, they also have to acknowledge that black on black violence is a problem. It's like whenever I want to discuss Palestinian terrorism, somebody always wants me to admit the Israelis do wrong things too. Once I admit that, does it change anything? Institutionalized racism is a real problem, and black on black violence is also a real problem, and both issues need to be addressed.

Stand Your Ground/Self-Defense law has nothing to do with institutional racism. I've even read that SYG helps more minorities than it hurts. But because it didn't in this case, the black community is up in arms about it. Perpetuating myopia/tunnel vision does not help the situation.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/06/12/1215595/-Stand-Your-Ground-Black-Woman-Fires-Shot-Gets-20-Years-White-Man-Kills-And-Goes-Free-WTF#

 

[renesauz]

Excellent speech by Obama. Politically, he had to make a speech on this, and I'm surprised most of you haven't discussed why. It's because he's been under enormous pressure from the leadership of the African-American community (among others, Sharpton and Jealous of the NAACP) to bring federal charges against George Zimmerman. That would be a huge political disaster. Worse, it would fail, because there's simply no way to prove that Zimmerman acted with racist intent. So this speech is a means to shut up Obama's critics among more progressive types and African-Americans, who have always felt, long before this case, that Obama shirked from discussing racial matters. He discusses them here; there will be no federal charges, now he hopes the story will fade away.

Moving on, not sure what offends or angers so many of you about the speech. Obama implies throughout the speech that this case was about racism, and of course I agree with him 100%. He implies that African-American youths are treated differently by our system of justice, and of course that's obvious to anyone who looks at the question fairly. He states that history informs how different people view the same event, and we all know that's true. I don't see anything inflammatory here.

When I heard snippets of BOs speech, I was mortified. Seeing it in context, it was much different. Toned down, reasonable and responsible. Reading it with an open mind, I got the sense that he was acknowledging the problems racial profiling can cause and the deep seated issues this can cause in the AA community without specifically stating it was the issue here. All in all....I mostly agree with your assessment.

 

[drummer]

Obama comparing himself to Martin is about the most absurd thing in the world, totally self serving invented.

Obama at Martin's age:

- In multicultural Hawaii

- Son of an international aid worker, grew up overseas, no parents at home.

- Never knew his father, who did not stick around for a cup of coffee.

- Raised by white grandmother who was a bank vice president and white grandfather who owned a furniture store.

- Upper class to middle upper class upbringing.

- White & Hawaiin friends

- Half-white American by way of Kansas and WA State (mother), half-Kenyan (father), zero family history with African-American experience of segregation and slavery

- Attended elite upper class expensive prep school

- slacker, smoked the weed, but nonetheless ticketed for expensive exclusive college and grad school future, would one day work in international finance and high end law firm in Chicago

- Not a whiff of trouble in his youth.

Martin compares with these, how?????

Obama was pointing out he was profiled for being black, as Martin was profiled by Zimmerman, he didn't claim they had identical backgrounds.

OH GOODY. I got to use the word Kenya! Just wait until I show my conservative friendz!

I think this is the comment I meant to respond to.

My point is he had no relatives of any kind (and certainly none he knew growing up if you include the African colonial experience) affected by segregation, slavery, or oppression in any way.

You don't need to have all that to experience prejudice or any kind of racism.

I was merely speaking to the reference that his father was Kenyan, which he was.

As to your second point, actually cultural heritage is a big, big part of this. How Martin reacted, how Zimmerman (who is half Cuban) reacted, how blacks are reacting to the verdict, and as to Obama his experiences have everything to do with his attempt to place himself in Martibn's shoes - I'd say Obama's background and experiences versus Martin's have a lot to do with that particular aspect of what he said.

I think Zimmerman is half Peruvian, not half Cuban. As to the rest, again all you need is a skin color or ethnic background to experience prejudice and racism. If you grew up with Obama, then you have more than a hypothesis of his experience.

Gotcha and since you grew up with Obama you know his comments are valid. The man has written more than one book about how he grew up and just like every other president his past is extremely well documented. Really I see no way Obama and Martin could share even a scintilla of common mental or cultural similarity and what's more he probably has more in common with a George Zimmerman if anything.

From wiki:

George Michael Zimmerman was born on October 5, 1983, in Manassas, Virginia,[32] and is the son of Gladys (née Mesa) Zimmerman, who was born in Peru,[33] and Robert Zimmerman, Sr., a retired Virginia magistrate.[34][35] He was raised as a Catholic,[33] in a family that his father has described as "multiracial"; his father is a White American of German descent[36] and his mother is Peruvian with some black ancestry through her Afro-Peruvian maternal grandfather.[33][Note 3] Zimmerman's voter registration record lists him as Hispanic and a registered Democrat.[37][38]

That's a lot closer to Obama than Martin.

If the question is ability to be profiled, well heck I'm guessing as a "Latino" living in Florida we might as well throw Zimmerman into that mix as well.

Oh I see. You're going for the Heinz 57 argument.

 

[Joe McGee]

Obama comparing himself to Martin is about the most absurd thing in the world, totally self serving invented.

Obama at Martin's age:

- In multicultural Hawaii

- Son of an international aid worker, grew up overseas, no parents at home.

- Never knew his father, who did not stick around for a cup of coffee.

- Raised by white grandmother who was a bank vice president and white grandfather who owned a furniture store.

- Upper class to middle upper class upbringing.

- White & Hawaiin friends

- Half-white American by way of Kansas and WA State (mother), half-Kenyan (father), zero family history with African-American experience of segregation and slavery

- Attended elite upper class expensive prep school

- slacker, smoked the weed, but nonetheless ticketed for expensive exclusive college and grad school future, would one day work in international finance and high end law firm in Chicago

- Not a whiff of trouble in his youth.

Martin compares with these, how?????

Obama was pointing out he was profiled for being black, as Martin was profiled by Zimmerman, he didn't claim they had identical backgrounds.

OH GOODY. I got to use the word Kenya! Just wait until I show my conservative friendz!

I think this is the comment I meant to respond to.

My point is he had no relatives of any kind (and certainly none he knew growing up if you include the African colonial experience) affected by segregation, slavery, or oppression in any way.

You don't need to have all that to experience prejudice or any kind of racism.

I was merely speaking to the reference that his father was Kenyan, which he was.

As to your second point, actually cultural heritage is a big, big part of this. How Martin reacted, how Zimmerman (who is half Cuban) reacted, how blacks are reacting to the verdict, and as to Obama his experiences have everything to do with his attempt to place himself in Martibn's shoes - I'd say Obama's background and experiences versus Martin's have a lot to do with that particular aspect of what he said.

I think Zimmerman is half Peruvian, not half Cuban. As to the rest, again all you need is a skin color or ethnic background to experience prejudice and racism. If you grew up with Obama, then you have more than a hypothesis of his experience.

I wasn't born in Kenya. I don't know what Obama has or hasn't experienced.

Good for you. I hear Kenya is a mutha around this time of year.

I was kidding for what it's worth.

 

[Rayderr]

Gotcha and since you grew up with Obama you know his comments are valid. The man has written more than one book about how he grew up and just like every other president his past is extremely well documented. Really I see no way Obama and Martin could share even a scintilla of common mental or cultural similarity and what's more he probably has more in common with a George Zimmerman if anything.

From wiki:

George Michael Zimmerman was born on October 5, 1983, in Manassas, Virginia,[32] and is the son of Gladys (née Mesa) Zimmerman, who was born in Peru,[33] and Robert Zimmerman, Sr., a retired Virginia magistrate.[34][35] He was raised as a Catholic,[33] in a family that his father has described as "multiracial"; his father is a White American of German descent[36] and his mother is Peruvian with some black ancestry through her Afro-Peruvian maternal grandfather.[33][Note 3] Zimmerman's voter registration record lists him as Hispanic and a registered Democrat.[37][38]

That's a lot closer to Obama than Martin.

If the question is ability to be profiled, well heck I'm guessing as a "Latino" living in Florida we might as well throw Zimmerman into that mix as well.

Actually, Hispanics in Prince WIlliam County, and especially Manassas, are treated much like blacks are commonly described as being treated. So ZImmerman probably had more in common with Trayvon than Obama.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Oh I see. You're going for the Heinz 57 argument.

Well it is dinner time and I do need to hit the grocery.... but hey, what?

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Gotcha and since you grew up with Obama you know his comments are valid. The man has written more than one book about how he grew up and just like every other president his past is extremely well documented. Really I see no way Obama and Martin could share even a scintilla of common mental or cultural similarity and what's more he probably has more in common with a George Zimmerman if anything.

From wiki:

George Michael Zimmerman was born on October 5, 1983, in Manassas, Virginia,[32] and is the son of Gladys (née Mesa) Zimmerman, who was born in Peru,[33] and Robert Zimmerman, Sr., a retired Virginia magistrate.[34][35] He was raised as a Catholic,[33] in a family that his father has described as "multiracial"; his father is a White American of German descent[36] and his mother is Peruvian with some black ancestry through her Afro-Peruvian maternal grandfather.[33][Note 3] Zimmerman's voter registration record lists him as Hispanic and a registered Democrat.[37][38]

That's a lot closer to Obama than Martin.

If the question is ability to be profiled, well heck I'm guessing as a "Latino" living in Florida we might as well throw Zimmerman into that mix as well.

Actually, Hispanics in Prince WIlliam County, and especially Manassas, are treated much like blacks are commonly described as being treated. So ZImmerman probably had more in common with Trayvon than Obama.

Annnd Irony/

 

[jon_mx]

Obama showed no respect for the process...

From his speech: "The judge conducted the trial in a professional manner. The prosecution and the defense made their arguments. The juries were properly instructed that in a case such as this reasonable doubt was relevant, and they rendered a verdict. And once the jury has spoken, that's how our system works."

Where did he say he respected the verdict? He has Eric Holder on standby investigating hoping to come up with some to charge someone. He is not satisfied that justices was served.ETA: Respecting the process would say the jury weighed the evidence and came to a just decision based on the laws of Florida and found that George Zimmerman is not guilty.

 

[renesauz]

Obama implies throughout the speech that this case was about racism, and of course I agree with him 100%.

Well then you're both wrong. There is zero evidence that what happened was any result of race, unless you want to blame Martin for being racist against the creepy *** crackah.

I know you believe that. We've debated it here in great detail, and there's no point in having the debate again.But what's important is that the majority of people who are very upset by the verdict strongly disagree with you on this. It is those people that Obama was mainly addressing.

You mean the choir? Great, thanks. You've managed to convert the converted once again, Mr. President. Now how about tackling the real issue instead of pandering?

Yeah, I was just going to point out that he wasn't addressing anything, merely pandering. Addressing it would have been being honest and pointing out that Martin also made some bad decisions that lead to his death that night. Instead, our President merely stoked the racial fires and further divided the country.

That speech shouldn't have stoked anything. I've argued for Zimmermann's (legal) innocence since almost the beginning, and I've been called racist more than once for my stance regarding black youths...but this speech was very moderate and reasonable, particularly coming from a black man.

ETA: Unfortunately, people will take lines out of context and probably use it to fuel their own agenda For some, that might include racial fires.

 

[Christo]

The best part about the speech, imo, is that he then acknowledged the fact that there is a violence problem among African-Americans.

This has been repeated by more than one person. I'm guessing it's annoying to black people that every time they want to discuss institutionalized racism, they also have to acknowledge that black on black violence is a problem. It's like whenever I want to discuss Palestinian terrorism, somebody always wants me to admit the Israelis do wrong things too. Once I admit that, does it change anything? Institutionalized racism is a real problem, and black on black violence is also a real problem, and both issues need to be addressed.

Stand Your Ground/Self-Defense law has nothing to do with institutional racism. I've even read that SYG helps more minorities than it hurts. But because it didn't in this case, the black community is up in arms about it. Perpetuating myopia/tunnel vision does not help the situation.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/06/12/1215595/-Stand-Your-Ground-Black-Woman-Fires-Shot-Gets-20-Years-White-Man-Kills-And-Goes-Free-WTF#

 

[squistion]

Really I see no way Obama and Martin could share even a scintilla of common mental or cultural similarity

Yeah, outside of being the same race and being subjected to the same attitudes and prejudices that all black men have encountered (at least those that I have known).

 

[17seconds]

Obama showed no respect for the process...

From his speech: "The judge conducted the trial in a professional manner. The prosecution and the defense made their arguments. The juries were properly instructed that in a case such as this reasonable doubt was relevant, and they rendered a verdict. And once the jury has spoken, that's how our system works."

Where did he say he respected the verdict? He has Eric Holder on standby investigating hoping to come up with some to charge someone. He is not satisfied that justices was served.

He's going all GOP Obamacare on 'em.

 

[johnnycakes]

This is a case where the President should have limited any remarks to extending condolences to the Martin family. This was conducted pursuant to Florida law, not Federal law, and had nothing to do with gun control or 2nd amendment rights. No upside in stirring the pot by saying "Trevon Martin could have been me" or something like that.

 

[Christo]

This is a case where the President should have limited any remarks to extending condolences to the Martin family. This was conducted pursuant to Florida law, not Federal law, and had nothing to do with gun control or 2nd amendment rights. No upside in stirring the pot by saying "Trevon Martin could have been me" or something like that.

But that was the entire point of the speech.

 

[squistion]

Obama showed no respect for the process...

From his speech: "The judge conducted the trial in a professional manner. The prosecution and the defense made their arguments. The juries were properly instructed that in a case such as this reasonable doubt was relevant, and they rendered a verdict. And once the jury has spoken, that's how our system works."

Where did he say he respected the verdict? He has Eric Holder on standby investigating hoping to come up with some to charge someone. He is not satisfied that justices was served.

When he first spoke on the topic, on Sunday

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/president-obama-urges-respect-trayvon-martin-verdict-jury-spoken-article-1.1398486

President Obama urges respect for George Zimmerman trial verdict on Trayvon Martin killing: 'A jury has spoken'

President Obama weighed in Sunday on the trial of George Zimmerman in the killing of Trayvon Martin, asking Americans to respect the jury’s not guilty verdict and reflect on ways the nation might curb senseless gun violence.

“The death of Trayvon Martin was a tragedy. Not just for his family, or for any one community, but for America,” Obama said. “I know this case has elicited strong passions. And in the wake of the verdict, I know those passions may be running even higher. But we are a nation of laws, and a jury has spoken.”

“I now ask every American to respect the call for calm reflection from two parents who lost their young son. And as we do, we should ask ourselves if we’re doing all we can to widen the circle of compassion and understanding in our own communities,” Obama added. “ We should ask ourselves if we’re doing all we can to stem the tide of gun violence that claims too many lives across this country on a daily basis. We should ask ourselves, as individuals and as a society, how we can prevent future tragedies like this. As citizens, that’s a job for all of us. That’s the way to honor Trayvon Martin."

 

[johnnycakes]

This is a case where the President should have limited any remarks to extending condolences to the Martin family. This was conducted pursuant to Florida law, not Federal law, and had nothing to do with gun control or 2nd amendment rights. No upside in stirring the pot by saying "Trevon Martin could have been me" or something like that.

But that was the entire point of the speech.

Then the point of the speech was counter-productive.

 

[drummer]

I was kidding for what it's worth.

I wasn't.

 

[Politician Spock]

This is a case where the President should have limited any remarks to extending condolences to the Martin family. This was conducted pursuant to Florida law, not Federal law, and had nothing to do with gun control or 2nd amendment rights. No upside in stirring the pot by saying "Trevon Martin could have been me" or something like that.

But that was the entire point of the speech.

Then the point of the speech was counter-productive.

Not when stirring the pot is the objective.

 

[-fish-]

Damn. Some of these posts are just amazing. You guys want me out of this thread, I'm out again. I can't deal with Mr. Two Cents, Max Threshold and those that agree with them. You win guys.

Once again, you don't need to announce your exit from a thread.

nope. he should announce his exit from the whole board instead.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

I was just thinking that what this country needs is a bunch of conservative middle-age middle-class+ white men to tell it what's approriate for a discussion about race.

Summing up what I've learned here: Measured and intelligent discussion of why people have different views about the topic of the day from the President = race-baiting. Jojo's videos of cranky old black men railing about young blacks = the only good faith conversation about race.

Thank you, FFA!

 

[kutta]

The way I determine if people are being intellectually honest in politics and in issues like this is to switch things up and determine if the reactions would be the same. If all things were equal, except Zimmerman were black and Martin were Hispanic, would the black community still be calling for Zimmerman to be convicted? No way - not a chance in hell. Would Zimmerman have actually been convicted? That's quite possible. And the interesting thing would be that the black community would be very upset by the verdict.

Would the other side now want Zimmerman convicted? Possibly, but I don't know they would be as passionate about it. I think self defense trumps racism, but I could be wrong.

 

[drummer]

The way I determine if people are being intellectually honest in politics and in issues like this is to switch things up and determine if the reactions would be the same. If all things were equal, except Zimmerman were black and Martin were Hispanic, would the black community still be calling for Zimmerman to be convicted? No way - not a chance in hell. Would Zimmerman have actually been convicted? That's quite possible. And the interesting thing would be that the black community would be very upset by the verdict.

Would the other side now want Zimmerman convicted? Possibly, but I don't know they would be as passionate about it. I think self defense trumps racism, but I could be wrong.

I dunno, how about asking a Hispanic dude if he thinks Zimmerman Hispanic.

 

[johnnycakes]

The way I determine if people are being intellectually honest in politics and in issues like this is to switch things up and determine if the reactions would be the same. If all things were equal, except Zimmerman were black and Martin were Hispanic, would the black community still be calling for Zimmerman to be convicted? No way - not a chance in hell. Would Zimmerman have actually been convicted? That's quite possible. And the interesting thing would be that the black community would be very upset by the verdict.

Would the other side now want Zimmerman convicted? Possibly, but I don't know they would be as passionate about it. I think self defense trumps racism, but I could be wrong.

You're better than this.

 

[Johnnymac]

The best part about the speech, imo, is that he then acknowledged the fact that there is a violence problem among African-Americans.

This has been repeated by more than one person. I'm guessing it's annoying to black people that every time they want to discuss institutionalized racism, they also have to acknowledge that black on black violence is a problem. It's like whenever I want to discuss Palestinian terrorism, somebody always wants me to admit the Israelis do wrong things too. Once I admit that, does it change anything? Institutionalized racism is a real problem, and black on black violence is also a real problem, and both issues need to be addressed.

Stand Your Ground/Self-Defense law has nothing to do with institutional racism. I've even read that SYG helps more minorities than it hurts. But because it didn't in this case, the black community is up in arms about it. Perpetuating myopia/tunnel vision does not help the situation.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/06/12/1215595/-Stand-Your-Ground-Black-Woman-Fires-Shot-Gets-20-Years-White-Man-Kills-And-Goes-Free-WTF#

Ok Christo, I'm not a lawyer but this lady fired a warning shot and got 20 years in prison. GZ killed someone and he walks. Explain this to me.

 

[jon_mx]

If I was on the jury, I would conclude that Obama thinks I am a racist.

 

[drummer]

If I was on the jury, I would conclude that Obama thinks I am a racist.

I think you're already on the FFA list for that.

 

[squistion]

If I was on the jury, I would conclude that Obama thinks I am a racist.

And in your case, he would be right.

 

[jon_mx]

If I was on the jury, I would conclude that Obama thinks I am a racist.

I think you're already on the FFA list for that.

The term is thrown around like candy around here. You are either a commie or a racist.

 

[drummer]

If I was on the jury, I would conclude that Obama thinks I am a racist.

I think you're already on the FFA list for that.

The term is thrown around like candy around here. You are either a commie or a racist.

You don't know what else you're called around here.

 

[Politician Spock]

If I was on the jury, I would conclude that Obama thinks I am a racist.

I think you're already on the FFA list for that.

The term is thrown around like candy around here. You are either a commie or a racist.

You forgot bigot.

 

[MaxThreshold]

The best part about the speech, imo, is that he then acknowledged the fact that there is a violence problem among African-Americans.

This has been repeated by more than one person. I'm guessing it's annoying to black people that every time they want to discuss institutionalized racism, they also have to acknowledge that black on black violence is a problem. It's like whenever I want to discuss Palestinian terrorism, somebody always wants me to admit the Israelis do wrong things too. Once I admit that, does it change anything? Institutionalized racism is a real problem, and black on black violence is also a real problem, and both issues need to be addressed.

Stand Your Ground/Self-Defense law has nothing to do with institutional racism. I've even read that SYG helps more minorities than it hurts. But because it didn't in this case, the black community is up in arms about it. Perpetuating myopia/tunnel vision does not help the situation.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/06/12/1215595/-Stand-Your-Ground-Black-Woman-Fires-Shot-Gets-20-Years-White-Man-Kills-And-Goes-Free-WTF#

Ok Christo, I'm not a lawyer but this lady fired a warning shot and got 20 years in prison. GZ killed someone and he walks. Explain this to me.

She got twenty years because she actually LEFT and went to go get a gun and then came back and shot at him while there was a child in the room/area. She decided to forego the plea deal and take here chances and lost. Federal Guidelines REQUIRE at least 20 years in prison.

Not even similar to the zimmerman case at all.

You won't get the real story at the DailyKos. You'll get talking points, misinformation and information deliberately left out to prove their point.

 

[jon_mx]

If I was on the jury, I would conclude that Obama thinks I am a racist.

I think you're already on the FFA list for that.

The term is thrown around like candy around here. You are either a commie or a racist.

You don't know what else you're called around here.

Yeah, i know. Cool, stud, funny, intelligent. All the compliments get old after a while.

 

[ffball-novice]

Just put Tim on ignore - life is better that way

How do you do that? I'm not familiar enough with board software.

 

[Johnnymac]

The best part about the speech, imo, is that he then acknowledged the fact that there is a violence problem among African-Americans.

This has been repeated by more than one person. I'm guessing it's annoying to black people that every time they want to discuss institutionalized racism, they also have to acknowledge that black on black violence is a problem. It's like whenever I want to discuss Palestinian terrorism, somebody always wants me to admit the Israelis do wrong things too. Once I admit that, does it change anything? Institutionalized racism is a real problem, and black on black violence is also a real problem, and both issues need to be addressed.

Stand Your Ground/Self-Defense law has nothing to do with institutional racism. I've even read that SYG helps more minorities than it hurts. But because it didn't in this case, the black community is up in arms about it. Perpetuating myopia/tunnel vision does not help the situation.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/06/12/1215595/-Stand-Your-Ground-Black-Woman-Fires-Shot-Gets-20-Years-White-Man-Kills-And-Goes-Free-WTF#

Ok Christo, I'm not a lawyer but this lady fired a warning shot and got 20 years in prison. GZ killed someone and he walks. Explain this to me.

She got twenty years because she actually LEFT and went to go get a gun and then came back and shot at him while there was a child in the room/area. She decided to forego the plea deal and take here chances and lost. Federal Guidelines REQUIRE at least 20 years in prison.

Not even similar to the zimmerman case at all.

You won't get the real story at the DailyKos. You'll get talking points, misinformation and information deliberately left out to prove their point.

Uhm....nobody got hurt. Trayvon is dead. Anyway, Florida is one ####ed up state.

 

[drummer]

If I was on the jury, I would conclude that Obama thinks I am a racist.

I think you're already on the FFA list for that.

The term is thrown around like candy around here. You are either a commie or a racist.

You don't know what else you're called around here.

Yeah, i know. Cool, stud, funny, intelligent. All the compliments get old after a while.

Don't forget delusional!

 

[Alex P Keaton]

The best part about the speech, imo, is that he then acknowledged the fact that there is a violence problem among African-Americans.

This has been repeated by more than one person. I'm guessing it's annoying to black people that every time they want to discuss institutionalized racism, they also have to acknowledge that black on black violence is a problem. It's like whenever I want to discuss Palestinian terrorism, somebody always wants me to admit the Israelis do wrong things too. Once I admit that, does it change anything? Institutionalized racism is a real problem, and black on black violence is also a real problem, and both issues need to be addressed.

Stand Your Ground/Self-Defense law has nothing to do with institutional racism. I've even read that SYG helps more minorities than it hurts. But because it didn't in this case, the black community is up in arms about it. Perpetuating myopia/tunnel vision does not help the situation.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/06/12/1215595/-Stand-Your-Ground-Black-Woman-Fires-Shot-Gets-20-Years-White-Man-Kills-And-Goes-Free-WTF#

Ok Christo, I'm not a lawyer but this lady fired a warning shot and got 20 years in prison. GZ killed someone and he walks. Explain this to me.

She got twenty years because she actually LEFT and went to go get a gun and then came back and shot at him while there was a child in the room/area. She decided to forego the plea deal and take here chances and lost. Federal Guidelines REQUIRE at least 20 years in prison.

Not even similar to the zimmerman case at all.

You won't get the real story at the DailyKos. You'll get talking points, misinformation and information deliberately left out to prove their point.

Did you even read the ####### link you quoted? I mean really, this is ####### comical.

"The problem with her defense was she chose to come back in the house."

You know, as opposed to hunting someone down in a wide-open neighborhood. She chose to come back into HER ####### house. Unreal. You are a moron.

 

[Dr Oadi]

The best part about the speech, imo, is that he then acknowledged the fact that there is a violence problem among African-Americans.

This has been repeated by more than one person. I'm guessing it's annoying to black people that every time they want to discuss institutionalized racism, they also have to acknowledge that black on black violence is a problem. It's like whenever I want to discuss Palestinian terrorism, somebody always wants me to admit the Israelis do wrong things too. Once I admit that, does it change anything? Institutionalized racism is a real problem, and black on black violence is also a real problem, and both issues need to be addressed.

Stand Your Ground/Self-Defense law has nothing to do with institutional racism. I've even read that SYG helps more minorities than it hurts. But because it didn't in this case, the black community is up in arms about it. Perpetuating myopia/tunnel vision does not help the situation.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/06/12/1215595/-Stand-Your-Ground-Black-Woman-Fires-Shot-Gets-20-Years-White-Man-Kills-And-Goes-Free-WTF#

Ok Christo, I'm not a lawyer but this lady fired a warning shot and got 20 years in prison. GZ killed someone and he walks. Explain this to me.

She got twenty years because she actually LEFT and went to go get a gun and then came back and shot at him while there was a child in the room/area. She decided to forego the plea deal and take here chances and lost. Federal Guidelines REQUIRE at least 20 years in prison.

Not even similar to the zimmerman case at all.

You won't get the real story at the DailyKos. You'll get talking points, misinformation and information deliberately left out to prove their point.

Did you even read the ####### link you quoted? I mean really, this is ####### comical."The problem with her defense was she chose to come back in the house."

You know, as opposed to hunting someone down in a wide-open neighborhood. She chose to come back into HER ####### house. Unreal. You are a moron.

If you go and get a gun and come back to the danger then you are guilty...unless you are black. Who knew the creepy ### cracka was hunting down little black boys that night. Thanks for the info I missed that.

 

[jon_mx]

If I was on the jury, I would conclude that Obama thinks I am a racist.

I think you're already on the FFA list for that.

The term is thrown around like candy around here. You are either a commie or a racist.

You don't know what else you're called around here.

Yeah, i know. Cool, stud, funny, intelligent. All the compliments get old after a while.

Don't forget delusional!

 

[MaxThreshold]

The best part about the speech, imo, is that he then acknowledged the fact that there is a violence problem among African-Americans.

This has been repeated by more than one person. I'm guessing it's annoying to black people that every time they want to discuss institutionalized racism, they also have to acknowledge that black on black violence is a problem. It's like whenever I want to discuss Palestinian terrorism, somebody always wants me to admit the Israelis do wrong things too. Once I admit that, does it change anything? Institutionalized racism is a real problem, and black on black violence is also a real problem, and both issues need to be addressed.

Stand Your Ground/Self-Defense law has nothing to do with institutional racism. I've even read that SYG helps more minorities than it hurts. But because it didn't in this case, the black community is up in arms about it. Perpetuating myopia/tunnel vision does not help the situation.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/06/12/1215595/-Stand-Your-Ground-Black-Woman-Fires-Shot-Gets-20-Years-White-Man-Kills-And-Goes-Free-WTF#

Ok Christo, I'm not a lawyer but this lady fired a warning shot and got 20 years in prison. GZ killed someone and he walks. Explain this to me.

She got twenty years because she actually LEFT and went to go get a gun and then came back and shot at him while there was a child in the room/area. She decided to forego the plea deal and take here chances and lost. Federal Guidelines REQUIRE at least 20 years in prison.

Not even similar to the zimmerman case at all.

You won't get the real story at the DailyKos. You'll get talking points, misinformation and information deliberately left out to prove their point.

Did you even read the ####### link you quoted? I mean really, this is ####### comical.

"The problem with her defense was she chose to come back in the house."

You know, as opposed to hunting someone down in a wide-open neighborhood. She chose to come back into HER ####### house. Unreal. You are a moron.

I think you're the moron, Alex. It wasn't HER house. You clearly don't understand that she was able to remove herself from the situation, but she decided to go back INTO this situation - in a house she wasn't even living in- and fire a gun in the presence of children. I've highlighted the relevant portions for you.

Alexander claims she felt her life was at risk, but she left the house and went into the garage, retrieved a handgun from her car and returned to the kitchen where her husband (Rico Gray) and his two children were located. Stand Your Ground does not require that you attempt to flee, but she already had. At this point, it no longer applied. She then fired the "mere warning shot", which in many accounts was aimed at the ceiling, but the court documents indicate "barely missed Gray's head". Here is the relevant part of the court document:

[Gray] moved to the living room where his children were. Subsequently, [Alexander] emerged from the master bedroom and went into the garage where her car was parked. [Alexander] testified she was trying to leave the residence but could not get the garage door to open. (The Court notes that despite [Alexander's] claim she was in fear for her life at that point and trying to get away from [Gray], she did not leave the house through the back or front doors which were unobstructed. Additionally, the garage door had worked previously and there was no evidence to support her claim.) [Alexander] then retrieved her firearm from the glove box of the vehicle. [Alexander] returned to the kitchen with the firearm in her hand and pointed it in the direction of all three victims. [Gray] put his hands in the air. [Alexander] shot at [Gray], barely missing his head. The bullet traveled through the kitchen wall and into the ceiling in the living room. The victims fled the residence and immediately called 911. [Alexander] stayed in the marital home and at no point called 911.
Well that's a whole different story, isn't it? It should also be noted that Alexander wasn't even living in the house at the time, as she and Gray had separated. Sean Davis over at Media Trackers has a much more detailed account of the case. I've been seeing the case start to gain more attention recently, so it's important to get the facts right before the media tries to turn it into another drummed up racial discrimination story. Definitely give it a read.

The real outrage here is Florida's 10-20-Life mandatory minimum law, which essentially gives prosecutors (like the detestable Angela Corey) power to act as both prosecutor and judge. As soon as Alexander discharged her weapon, it immediately became a 20 year minimum sentence since it was used in an aggravated assault. The judge's hands were tied. The law does not include a first time offender exemption...

I don't know why you're getting angry with me, since all I was doing was reporting the info to a question on how the two cases are different.

 

[timschochet]

Can't. Stay. Away.

As much as I like to disagree with him (99% of the time) Max Threshold is actually correct here. The Alexander case really is not a good analogy to the Zimmerman case. There ought to be severe penalties for firing guns in the presence of children. Given the circumstances of the case , 20 years is way too long, whether she refused to plead or not. But as Max correctly points out, there was a mandatory minimum.

Which brings up yet again another issue: mandatory minimums, whether federal or state, are a terrible idea. Conservatives are always proposing them in order to be "tough on crime", but they lead to injustice. Had Zimmerman been found guilty of manslaughter, he might have faced 30 years in prison. Everyone here knows what I think of Zimmerman's actions that night, but even I think this is too long.

 

[Joe McGee]

The way I determine if people are being intellectually honest in politics and in issues like this is to switch things up and determine if the reactions would be the same. If all things were equal, except Zimmerman were black and Martin were Hispanic, would the black community still be calling for Zimmerman to be convicted? No way - not a chance in hell. Would Zimmerman have actually been convicted? That's quite possible. And the interesting thing would be that the black community would be very upset by the verdict.

Would the other side now want Zimmerman convicted? Possibly, but I don't know they would be as passionate about it. I think self defense trumps racism, but I could be wrong.

What if George Zimmerman were black?

Here's your answer - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJUJLsBUtRw&feature

 

[Dr Oadi]

Can't. Stay. Away.

As much as I like to disagree with him (99% of the time) Max Threshold is actually correct here. The Alexander case really is not a good analogy to the Zimmerman case. There ought to be severe penalties for firing guns in the presence of children. Given the circumstances of the case , 20 years is way too long, whether she refused to plead or not. But as Max correctly points out, there was a mandatory minimum.

Which brings up yet again another issue: mandatory minimums, whether federal or state, are a terrible idea. Conservatives are always proposing them in order to be "tough on crime", but they lead to injustice. Had Zimmerman been found guilty of manslaughter, he might have faced 30 years in prison. Everyone here knows what I think of Zimmerman's actions that night, but even I think this is too long.

They are a terrible idea and all legislation requiring them should be repealed. That will not happen because liberals love their mandatory gun crime sentences and conservatives hate bleeding heart judges.

 

[timschochet]

Can't. Stay. Away.

As much as I like to disagree with him (99% of the time) Max Threshold is actually correct here. The Alexander case really is not a good analogy to the Zimmerman case. There ought to be severe penalties for firing guns in the presence of children. Given the circumstances of the case , 20 years is way too long, whether she refused to plead or not. But as Max correctly points out, there was a mandatory minimum.

Which brings up yet again another issue: mandatory minimums, whether federal or state, are a terrible idea. Conservatives are always proposing them in order to be "tough on crime", but they lead to injustice. Had Zimmerman been found guilty of manslaughter, he might have faced 30 years in prison. Everyone here knows what I think of Zimmerman's actions that night, but even I think this is too long.

They are a terrible idea and all legislation requiring them should be repealed. That will not happen because liberals love their mandatory gun crime sentences and conservatives hate bleeding heart judges.

In Florida, I've read that conservatives led by Jeb Bush were the ones who put through the mandatory gun crime sentences, and it was opposed by liberals. Don't know about other states.