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For People Who Would Normally Vote Republican But Aren't Comfortable With Trump (2 Viewers)

Joe Bryant said:
This may be useless, but thought I'd take a chance to see if we could have a real conversation on this one without insults or snarkiness. Please be cool and discuss.

The George Will leaving thing is pretty fascinating.

John Fugelsang had an interesting observation: 

Others seemed glad to have Will out. For others, I'm sure it's a negative. 

Bryan Cranston wrote: 

George Will talked about what to do:

Brett Decker countered with: 

Fair points all. 

For you folks who would normally vote for the Republican candidate, what do you think about this?

J
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George Will basically said, vote for Hillary. That automatically boots him from the Republican party. Good riddance 

 
MaxThreshold said:
Cletus and Joe make a great point about the SC pick.  I really have no idea what type of nominee a Trump Presidency would put forth.  

Trump could just pick Merrick Garland for all I know and all my consternation over the SC pick and voting for Trump anyway would go right out the window.
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He could, but it's a risk I'm willing to take. I know what I'll get on the other side, which won't be terrible if I isolate myself from things happening outside of my direct life. 

 
Trump is completely unqualified, racist, xenophobic, selfish, arrogant, and dangerously ignorant. His business practices are a prime example of what's destroying the middle class and making the rich richer. It's not just insults or calling names. He could do real, lasting, damage to the country. I don't think it's a matter of politics.

 
Ministry of Pain said:
Those that think they are being good GOPs and simply not voting or writing in someone else like Kasich, you're lying to yourself and everyone here, you also are full of bullspit on everything you have complained about with Obama for the last 8 years and finally you are full of BS because you know when it comes time you are going to walk in that booth and pull Trump's name. And if you doubt me, simply pull up Clinton's speech the same day Trump spoke scathing things about her(22nd?) and listen to the entitlements and freebies she wants to hand out and then add in 1-2 Supreme Court noms and I doubt you will be able to sleep at night. 

The moral high roaders need to get over it and realize this country is leaving you behind. Trump is a brand and Trump is a way to scare the establishment and shake things up a little bit in Washington, Sanders supporters were similar and some will vote for Trump to protest Clinton but I find it difficult to believe proud GOPs who dislike Trump want to elect Hilary Clinton. 
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Trump has a few problems:

- He's perceived as being FOS.

- He's blown off conservatives.

- Even when he happens upon a good point he doesn't actually know what he's talking about.

- He's a lifelong Democrat and isn't actually a Republican or conservative.

- He might be crooked. He matches Hillary almost flaw for flaw.

- Voters have *no idea what they will get from him ideologically.

- Even if you agree with him he doesn't have a stable personality.

- He looks like he's blowing the easiest election chance the GOP has had since 2000.

- He may not actually be trying to win.

The guy has serious fundamental problems. Don't blame other people for your candidate's problems.

 
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mrip541 said:
Trump is completely unqualified, racist, xenophobic, selfish, arrogant, and dangerously ignorant. His business practices are a prime example of what's destroying the middle class and making the rich richer. It's not just insults or calling names. He could do real, lasting, damage to the country. I don't think it's a matter of politics.
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I think this is a bit overblown.    Do you really think the president has that much influence/power?  The whole system is designed to move slowly and can't be turned upside down by a single administration.  Congress is really the key, not the presidency IMO.   That said, I am leaning Gary Johnson at the moment.  It will take some significant signs of stability and substance from Trump over the next few months to sway me otherwise.

 
avoiding injuries said:
He could, but it's a risk I'm willing to take. I know what I'll get on the other side, which won't be terrible if I isolate myself from things happening outside of my direct life. 
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Once you realize that SCOTUS cases generally have no effect on you personally even if you deeply disagree with them in principle, you stop caring so much about supreme court seats.  It bugs me that they didn't finish off affirmative action once and for all in the Fisher case last week, but ultimately that ruling doesn't affect me.  I'm certainly not going to support a guy like Trump simply for an increased probability of scoring a theoretical victory in some hypothetical court case ten years from now.

 
BowieMercs said:
I'd rather not vote than vote against someone.
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I've voted D, R, and L in various elections in the past 25 years, and this is exactly how I feel this year.     

This entire poo-fest would be hilarious if it wasn't so depressing.  

 
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Joe Bryant said:
Hi Cletius,

Thanks for thinking of it that way but I don't think the Supreme Court issue is derailing. I hear that too. I have friends who are conservative and are not comfortable with Trump but they'll likely vote for him and use the Supreme Court thing as the reason. Personally, it seems like banking on being able to predict that Trump will do what they want seems kind of tenuous. But that's their logic.

J
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We don't know what Trump will do. We do know what Hillary will do. The only reason I might vote for Trump is the SCOTUS. But living in Washington, I might cast a protest vote for the Libertarians.

 
I am not committed to any party--I vote for whoever I think the best candidate is.  Unfortunately in this election--it seems as though we have a lack of a real good option for who to vote for,  and I feel like I have no choice but  to vote for the "lesser of the two evils".  To me--that's easily Hillary--so Trump will not be getting my vote.   I feel like the country as well as our markets are more prepared for a Hillary victory--and if Trump were somehow to win--I think we would see major volatility.  This volatility will be in the form of public unrest, dramatic shifts in the money and economic markets as well as political unrest.      My only fear is that so many people feel like Hillary is going to be the slam dunk winner that they won't vote or they write in votes.   This type of voting behavior benefits Trump hugely.   Higher voter turnout would be better for Hillary.  If you are on the side of "anybody" but Trump--don't write in--bite the bullet and vote for Hillary.  You'll feel dirty about it--but it's better than the alternative.

 
jvdesigns2002 said:
I am not committed to any party--I vote for whoever I think the best candidate is.  Unfortunately in this election--it seems as though we have a lack of a real good option for who to vote for,  and I feel like I have no choice but  to vote for the "lesser of the two evils".  
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That gets said in every election, but I've never believed it until now.  I don't even think we've had a bad finalist in my voting window (92 onward) until now.

 
mrip541 said:
Trump is completely unqualified, racist, xenophobic, selfish, arrogant, and dangerously ignorant. His business practices are a prime example of what's destroying the middle class and making the rich richer. It's not just insults or calling names. He could do real, lasting, damage to the country. I don't think it's a matter of politics.
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Good Lord.

 
Galileo said:
I think this is a bit overblown.    Do you really think the president has that much influence/power?  The whole system is designed to move slowly and can't be turned upside down by a single administration.  Congress is really the key, not the presidency IMO.   That said, I am leaning Gary Johnson at the moment.  It will take some significant signs of stability and substance from Trump over the next few months to sway me otherwise.
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Here's how I see it -- Trump completely unchecked would turn us into North Korea. The press would be turned over to the state, his kids would be appointed to succeed him, dissenters would be executed, the whole bit. Thankfully with our checks and balances, it would never approach that -- but we should be very alarmed by his nationalist and authoritarian rhetoric because presidents do have power to enact things via executive order. Clearly he would stretch that power to its absolute limits and be at odds with congress and the supreme court at every turn. 

But the real danger is his sheer ignorance, hubris, stupid ideas and lack of any regard for how his administration would affect real people. A president does have lasting influence on foreign affairs and the economy, and the thought of Trump in charge of those things should scare the living #### out of anyone.

 
McGarnicle said:
Here's how I see it -- Trump completely unchecked would turn us into North Korea. The press would be turned over to the state, his kids would be appointed to succeed him, dissenters would be executed, the whole bit. Thankfully with our checks and balances, it would never approach that -- but we should be very alarmed by his nationalist and authoritarian rhetoric because presidents do have power to enact things via executive order. Clearly he would stretch that power to its absolute limits and be at odds with congress and the supreme court at every turn. 

But the real danger is his sheer ignorance, hubris, stupid ideas and lack of any regard for how his administration would affect real people. A president does have lasting influence on foreign affairs and the economy, and the thought of Trump in charge of those things should scare the living #### out of anyone.
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They said a lot of the same things about W and we recovered. I just think we'll be headed for deadlock for 4 years.

 
CletiusMaximus said:
Supreme Court appointments always seem like a hugely overrated issue to me. Truly landmark cases are very few and far between, and appointments are so unpredictable, I think its misguided to make it a single issue factor in choosing a candidate. I don't want to derail Joe's thread, but it seems several folks feel the most important reason or perhaps only reason they would vote Trump is because of the supreme court.
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I understand this line of thinking, and in a normal cycle would even tend to agree. Unfortunately, this next president isn't going to nominate a single justice...he/she might do as many as 4. It's a MUCH bigger factor this go-round than in most others.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
Once you realize that SCOTUS cases generally have no effect on you personally even if you deeply disagree with them in principle, you stop caring so much about supreme court seats.  It bugs me that they didn't finish off affirmative action once and for all in the Fisher case last week, but ultimately that ruling doesn't affect me.  I'm certainly not going to support a guy like Trump simply for an increased probability of scoring a theoretical victory in some hypothetical court case ten years from now.
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Millions of Hispanics were personally affected by the SC's decision on deportations.

 
Voting Trump all the way. Not my first choice, but in my opinion another Clinton and the continuation of Obama's policies will not end well for us.

 
Here is the thing, back when Bush the elder was running for reelection because of his famous no new taxes line, a great many Republicans cast a protest vote for Ross Perot, which ended with Clinton winning the White House. Now Republicans are talking about doing another protest vote this time for Johnson and guess what another Clinton will benefit once again. I admit I did a protest vote and voted for Perot the last time. I won't make that same mistake again and allow another Clinton to get in that way. My vote goes to Trump.

 
mrip541 said:
Trump is completely unqualified, racist, xenophobic, selfish, arrogant, and dangerously ignorant. His business practices are a prime example of what's destroying the middle class and making the rich richer. It's not just insults or calling names. He could do real, lasting, damage to the country. I don't think it's a matter of politics.
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Yet he's still a better option than Hillary. :wall:

 
McGarnicle said:
Here's how I see it -- Trump completely unchecked would turn us into North Korea. The press would be turned over to the state, his kids would be appointed to succeed him, dissenters would be executed, the whole bit. Thankfully with our checks and balances, it would never approach that -- but we should be very alarmed by his nationalist and authoritarian rhetoric because presidents do have power to enact things via executive order. Clearly he would stretch that power to its absolute limits and be at odds with congress and the supreme court at every turn. 

But the real danger is his sheer ignorance, hubris, stupid ideas and lack of any regard for how his administration would affect real people. A president does have lasting influence on foreign affairs and the economy, and the thought of Trump in charge of those things should scare the living #### out of anyone.
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:goodposting:

 
I don't know what I am going to do.  I want to vote against Clinton (I can't stand her), but voting for Trump would be like going to the craps table and rolling the dice.....no one knows what we would get with a Trump presidency.

I live in SC, so it doesn't matter if I pull the lever for Gary Johnson.....SC likely will go to Trump.

I can't imagine if I lived in a swing state.

 
I have been a (R) supporter nearly my whole life, but I feel like the Republican party veered way off-course midway through GWB's term.

There is no way I can support trump - I find nearly everything he says to be despicable.  I can't find a single redeeming quality.  I think he is absolutely qualified to build a hotel or golf course, but that's a far cry from the most important job in the world.

Here's the problem though - I think trump is a symptom of a deeper problem.  I can't quite put my finger on what that is, but there is something rotten with an electorate that can put this guy up there.  

I'm scared that the next guy (4 years from now) will take up the populist / xenophobic / corporatist / anti-science mantle, appealing to the lowest common denominator, but do it with a little more political savvy...and then we are all screwed.

 
Joe Bryant said:
This may be useless, but thought I'd take a chance to see if we could have a real conversation on this one without insults or snarkiness. Please be cool and discuss.

For you folks who would normally vote for the Republican candidate, what do you think about this?

J
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I think the leadership of the GOP should be drawn and quartered on the National Mall on live television.

 
cstu said:
Millions of Hispanics were personally affected by the SC's decision on deportations.
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I don't like that ruling, but it didn't affect me in the slightest.  I didn't get terribly excited or emotionally invested in Obama's decision to forgo deportation, so I'm not going to get emotionally invested in a court ruling that reverses that decision.  That's what I mean.  There's almost never any reason for me to care about a Supreme Court case any more than any other policy decision by one of the other branches of government.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
I don't like that ruling, but it didn't affect me in the slightest.  I didn't get terribly excited or emotionally invested in Obama's decision to forgo deportation, so I'm not going to get emotionally invested in a court ruling that reverses that decision.  That's what I mean.  There's almost never any reason for me to care about a Supreme Court case any more than any other policy decision by one of the other branches of government.
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It's a fair point, but can't an issue can be important to you without directly affecting you?

 
IvanKaramazov said:
I don't like that ruling, but it didn't affect me in the slightest.  I didn't get terribly excited or emotionally invested in Obama's decision to forgo deportation, so I'm not going to get emotionally invested in a court ruling that reverses that decision.  That's what I mean.  There's almost never any reason for me to care about a Supreme Court case any more than any other policy decision by one of the other branches of government.
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I disagreed with both your post and Cletius's about the minor role the Supreme Court appointments have to play. The ACA ruling, the Warren Court, the Rehnquist Court and others have had direct impacts on my day-to-day life. Perhaps it's just like we're fish in the water, not realizing who is shaping or what is running the water, but the rules and governance are there nonetheless. 

To cstu's point, the deportation case further cements weird California regulations that try to stem the tide of illegal immigration. In no other state do I know of where the requirement is to get your driver's license within ten days of getting your residency. That's absurd, and likely can only be chalked up to the federal and S. Ct. decisions regarding illegal immigration. 

In short: It does affect us, and affects me, on a daily basis.  

 
Tolstoy said:
It's a fair point, but can't an issue can be important to you without directly affecting you?
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Of course.  I've managed to reach a point where I care about these issues intellectually, but I'm no longer emotionally invested like I used to be.  For example, I don't like today's ruling on abortion, and I despise the Fisher ruling, but I'm not sitting around stewing over them.  Having experienced both sides of this, I can confidently say that checking out to some degree is a much healthier mindset.  

 
IvanKaramazov said:
Of course.  I've managed to reach a point where I care about these issues intellectually, but I'm no longer emotionally invested like I used to be.  For example, I don't like today's ruling on abortion, and I despise the Fisher ruling, but I'm not sitting around stewing over them.  Having experienced both sides of this, I can confidently say that checking out to some degree is a much healthier mindset.  
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Sure, but checked out enough that SC appointments wouldn't influence your vote?  Just to keep in context of the original discussion.  

Obviously gay marriage doesn't affect me, but I want to move towards equality.  Emotionally invested?  Maybe not, but I care enough that I will consider a candidates thoughts on it.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
Of course.  I've managed to reach a point where I care about these issues intellectually, but I'm no longer emotionally invested like I used to be.  For example, I don't like today's ruling on abortion, and I despise the Fisher ruling, but I'm not sitting around stewing over them.  Having experienced both sides of this, I can confidently say that checking out to some degree is a much healthier mindset.  
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I checked for for 7 years. It was refreshing. But I came back and the same suspects are still here.... It was like I never left.

 
Tolstoy said:
Sure, but checked out enough that SC appointments wouldn't influence your vote?  
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Yes.  Like I mentioned earlier, I vote Libertarian anyway, and I live in a deeply red state where my vote doesn't matter, so I know I have no effective say of Supreme Court nominees.

But in a hypothetical universe where I have to vote for either Clinton or Trump, and I know that my vote personally will be the one that puts the winner over the top, and that person will get to pick a whole new slate of nine justices who will stay together on the bench for the next 25 years, I would bite the bullet and vote for Clinton because Trump is so horrible on every other dimension that I'll just cede the Supreme Court to the bad guys.  The worst they're going to do is continue public sector racial discrimination and carve out loopholes to the first amendment.  Four years of Trump would be much more damaging.

 
Joe Bryant said:
This may be useless, but thought I'd take a chance to see if we could have a real conversation on this one without insults or snarkiness. Please be cool and discuss.

The George Will leaving thing is pretty fascinating.

John Fugelsang had an interesting observation: 

Others seemed glad to have Will out. For others, I'm sure it's a negative. 

Bryan Cranston wrote: 

George Will talked about what to do:

Brett Decker countered with: 

Fair points all. 

For you folks who would normally vote for the Republican candidate, what do you think about this?

J
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I don't give a crap about what George Will thinks. We know he's not voting Democrat so this is just a tantrum.

I will give him credit though - I don't think his "announcement' was actually an announcement, in other words, I don't think he said anything designed to get the coverage that this got....but I doubt many people care why he doesn't like Trump, etc.

 
Poppa said:
Lean Democratic. Have voted Republican - Reagan, GHWB. Have voted 3rd party - Libertarian in '12. Would not consider voting for Clinton or Trump this election. Cranston mirrors my thoughts at the INCREDIBLE lack of political courage evinced by the party's leadership ~ as if strongly repudiating the ridiculousness of a possible "President Trump" even required courage. Held out hope that Speaker Ryan would lead a common sense rally for GOP sanity. Extremely disappointed that he too cravenly fell in line with the sinking GOP/Trump ship of stupid.

Holding out hope that the convention torpedoes the Trump ship, and brings forth a relatively "normal" Republican to take down Clinton.

(Too, holding out hope that Director Comey icebergs the titanic ship of Clinton graft, corruption, entitlement, and incompetence.)  
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Ryan has done a decent job of holding his nose on Trump. I give him leeway though - I don't know how you avoid the stench of Trump and what point your goal becomes keeping the House / Senate vs. going bad on the nominee - tough to please everyone here and serve your ultimate interests

 
Gopher State said:
I also lean dem, but do vote rep based on candidates.  With Hillary we getfourmore years about the same of what we have has, which is fine,  I see moderate economic growth, protection of social security, and we will continue the war on terrorism.  All important to me.  With Trump I not sure what you get.  Hillary sees like the safe pick.  Not interested in distribution of wealth, health care reform or free cheese
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I'm surprised a Democrat, as you lean, would be that open to Trump. Your comments leave out hope that not knowing could result in something not horrible.

Why do you think Hillary is interested in the distribution of wealth? Is this pandering to Sanders voters?

 
Ministry of Pain said:
Those that think they are being good GOPs and simply not voting or writing in someone else like Kasich, you're lying to yourself and everyone here, you also are full of bullspit on everything you have complained about with Obama for the last 8 years and finally you are full of BS because you know when it comes time you are going to walk in that booth and pull Trump's name. And if you doubt me, simply pull up Clinton's speech the same day Trump spoke scathing things about her(22nd?) and listen to the entitlements and freebies she wants to hand out and then add in 1-2 Supreme Court noms and I doubt you will be able to sleep at night. 

The moral high roaders need to get over it and realize this country is leaving you behind. Trump is a brand and Trump is a way to scare the establishment and shake things up a little bit in Washington, Sanders supporters were similar and some will vote for Trump to protest Clinton but I find it difficult to believe proud GOPs who dislike Trump want to elect Hilary Clinton. 
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In my opinion, you can't hate on the idea's of Obama/Clinton and then support Trump.

I say this because Trump doesn't have any substantive idea's. They are all pie in the sky. At least you know where you stand with Obama.

 
mrip541 said:
Trump is completely unqualified, racist, xenophobic, selfish, arrogant, and dangerously ignorant. His business practices are a prime example of what's destroying the middle class and making the rich richer. It's not just insults or calling names. He could do real, lasting, damage to the country. I don't think it's a matter of politics.
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I will generally never call another person any of the names you used. Those are pretty tough to take back (or prove).

I don't disagree with your end result though.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Trump has a few problems:

- He's perceived as being FOS.

- He's blown off conservatives.

- Even when he happens upon a good point he doesn't actually know what he's talking about.

- He's a lifelong Democrat and isn't actually a Republican or conservative.

- He might be crooked. He matches Hillary almost flaw for flaw.

- Voters have *no idea what they will get from him ideologically.

- Even if you agree with him he doesn't have a stable personality.

- He looks like he's blowing the easiest election chance the GOP has had since 2000.

- He may not actually be trying to win.

The guy has serious fundamental problems. Don't blame other people for your candidate's problems.
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Who are you voting for? I follow some of your Clinton emails responses and I assume you're a conservative, but don't follow that closely.

I don't think any race for a Republican is easy anymore, whether it's Romney, McCain, Trump or 'pick a candidate'. The electoral map is just tough for a Republican and the demographics get tighter and tighter every year.

Trump has 2 things going for him - don't know if it will end up making a difference in the end though

1) Media savvy - best campaign I've seen as far as being on top of the media

2) Tone vs. Robot - Trump sounds like an idiot often, but, most of the time, a real person vs. poll tested Clinton. Again, not sure this matters considering the intelligence.

 
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