Terminalxylem
Footballguy
Only while I heal, nowhere near 1g/lb BW, and no friggin whey!
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From Fat to Fit 2025 - I Really Mean It This Time! (1 Viewer)
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The Longtime Lurker
Footballguy
Up to 20g has been tested as beneficial with nothing adverse reported to my knowledge. 10g from what I've seen is the sweet spot for muscle and cognitive benefits as you need a little higher saturation since it can only cross the bbb to a limited extent, unless I'm mistaken and that's BS. Though i have to admit after upping my dose from 5 to 10g I've noticed benefits to sleep and have a little extra pep in my step.
Major
Footballguy
Only while I heal, nowhere near 1g/lb BW, and no friggin whey!
I wonder if proper protein supplementation would have prevented that injury
FarFromHome
Footballguy
Wow. I literally just bought this pea protein last night. Shifting from milk based whey. Gonna see what happens with it.
Major
Footballguy
FarFromHome
Footballguy
Nice. I'm just gonna basically close my eyes and down it like cough syrup.
Major
Footballguy
Vega has a Ready To Drink chocolate variety which tastes pretty damn good but they get pricey and have a bunch of other preservatives/ingredients. I'm not a vegan nancy boy so I just go with the tried and true IsopureNice. I'm just gonna basically close my eyes and down it like cough syrup.
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
Nah, but better stretching, or a time machine might have.Only while I heal, nowhere near 1g/lb BW, and no friggin whey!
I wonder if proper protein supplementation would have prevented that injury
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
I just blended 2 frozen bananas, chia milk, cinnamon, and vanilla powder. It was quite tasty imo. Pretty much like any other protein powder.Nice. I'm just gonna basically close my eyes and down it like cough syrup.
Major
Footballguy
I just blended 2 frozen bananas, chia milk, cinnamon, and vanilla powder. It was quite tasty imo. Pretty much like any other protein powder.Nice. I'm just gonna basically close my eyes and down it like cough syrup.
I go easy on the carbs. Most of the time I'm just mixing my protein with coffee or water where I can really taste the protein. Have yet to find a vegan option that tastes good in my coffee.
You should consider throwing half an avocado into your smoothie. Really adds a great texture to the mix almost like a milkshake
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
Yeah, I’ve done that. It’s good, too. Hell, avocado makes just about anything better.I just blended 2 frozen bananas, chia milk, cinnamon, and vanilla powder. It was quite tasty imo. Pretty much like any other protein powder.Nice. I'm just gonna basically close my eyes and down it like cough syrup.
I go easy on the carbs. Most of the time I'm just mixing my protein with coffee or water where I can really taste the protein. Have yet to find a vegan option that tastes good in my coffee.
You should consider throwing half an avocado into your smoothie. Really adds a great texture to the mix almost like a milkshake
Wish I liked coffee, but there’s nothing I can add to make it palatable.
The Longtime Lurker
Footballguy
Avocado > banana. Love me some avocado.
GennyScreamers
Footballguy
I make a smoothie daily. I'm team avocado. One full avocado in every smoothie. Stopped using bananas years ago.
FarFromHome
Footballguy
Interesting. We always have avocados. Love em. Never thought to use em like this. Mahalo
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
That article is interesting, in theory, but I’m not trying to get flavanols from my smoothies. The bananas are mainly for taste, and texture. But it’s a good point regarding dietary interactions. Seldom do we eat single nutrients in a vacuum, so we need to consider our entire nutritional milieu.
That’s one of the many advantages of eating a bunch of plants. Most of them are packed with micronutrients, and not calorically dense, so you can eat a lot of them. Plus they contain abundant complex carbohydrates, which are ubiquitous in healthy, sustainable diets.
I’m anxious to see where all this protein mania leads us health wise. But I wouldn’t bet against diets we already know promote longevity, none of which are high in animal protein, or protein, period.
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Terminalxylem
Footballguy
Yeah, scoop and pit them, then freeze. You’ll need to experiment to figure our how much for optimal smoothness/flavor.
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
This argues for increasing my ingestion of mango lassi
The Longtime Lurker
Footballguy
Question for the more workout minded. What are the thoughts on working out fasted? Typically any HIIT or steady state cardio i do is fasted. I don't notice any reduced effort here like I do with weights. I always eat first lifting as i do notice a loss of strength with heavy weights. My understanding is that cardio fasted can preserve muscle while losing fat better than eating prior. I've been doing this for years, so maybe I've adapted, but does anyone else do this and notice any difference, or up to date on the current science?
Major
Footballguy
The more I read about it and the more it's studied, the more I think middle aged men need to increase their protein take if they're lifting weights and want to build/sustain muscle. Of course, it depends what your goals are. I don't want to look like a marathon runner and hope to maintain a lean physique while being strong and agile.
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The Longtime Lurker
Footballguy
What I've seen is that high protein intake in middle age is a good idea if you use it, like consistent time in the gym, but that it can be detrimental if you're not active enough. That risk decreased and become beneficial over the age of 65 active or not.
The more I read about it and the more it's studied, the more I think middle aged men need to increase their protein take if they're lifting weights and want to build/sustain muscle. Of course, it depends what your goals are. I don't want to look like a marathon runner and hope to maintain a lean physique while being strong and agile.
- YouTube
Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.www.youtube.com
Probably better articles than this one, but just a quick search.
High-Protein Diets in Middle Age Might Shorten Life Span
TUESDAY, March 4, 2014 (HealthDay News) -- Millions of middle-aged Americans chow down each day on steaks, cheeseburgers and other protein-rich fare. Now two s
www.healthday.com
Major
Footballguy
What I've seen is that high protein intake in middle age is a good idea if you use it, like consistent time in the gym, but that it can be detrimental if you're not active enough. That risk decreased and become beneficial over the age of 65 active or not.
The more I read about it and the more it's studied, the more I think middle aged men need to increase their protein take if they're lifting weights and want to build/sustain muscle. Of course, it depends what your goals are. I don't want to look like a marathon runner and hope to maintain a lean physique while being strong and agile.
- YouTube
Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.www.youtube.com
Probably better articles than this one, but just a quick search.
High-Protein Diets in Middle Age Might Shorten Life Span
TUESDAY, March 4, 2014 (HealthDay News) -- Millions of middle-aged Americans chow down each day on steaks, cheeseburgers and other protein-rich fare. Now two swww.healthday.com
Yeah, I don't think protein is the problem. It's all the sugar in most American's diets which is causing most health issues. Tread carefully with all those bananas Term.
The Longtime Lurker
Footballguy
Agree about bananas. To much sugar and not enough fiber to help offset the uptake.What I've seen is that high protein intake in middle age is a good idea if you use it, like consistent time in the gym, but that it can be detrimental if you're not active enough. That risk decreased and become beneficial over the age of 65 active or not.
The more I read about it and the more it's studied, the more I think middle aged men need to increase their protein take if they're lifting weights and want to build/sustain muscle. Of course, it depends what your goals are. I don't want to look like a marathon runner and hope to maintain a lean physique while being strong and agile.
- YouTube
Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.www.youtube.com
Probably better articles than this one, but just a quick search.
High-Protein Diets in Middle Age Might Shorten Life Span
TUESDAY, March 4, 2014 (HealthDay News) -- Millions of middle-aged Americans chow down each day on steaks, cheeseburgers and other protein-rich fare. Now two swww.healthday.com
Yeah, I don't think protein is the problem. It's all the sugar in most American's diets which is causing most health issues. Tread carefully with all those bananas Term.
Eta. sugar is without question the biggest problem, but i thought the protein idea that maybe mega high protein intake without being active is interesting.
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FarFromHome
Footballguy
You nailed it. Sugar is the #1 enemy.What I've seen is that high protein intake in middle age is a good idea if you use it, like consistent time in the gym, but that it can be detrimental if you're not active enough. That risk decreased and become beneficial over the age of 65 active or not.
The more I read about it and the more it's studied, the more I think middle aged men need to increase their protein take if they're lifting weights and want to build/sustain muscle. Of course, it depends what your goals are. I don't want to look like a marathon runner and hope to maintain a lean physique while being strong and agile.
- YouTube
Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.www.youtube.com
Probably better articles than this one, but just a quick search.
High-Protein Diets in Middle Age Might Shorten Life Span
TUESDAY, March 4, 2014 (HealthDay News) -- Millions of middle-aged Americans chow down each day on steaks, cheeseburgers and other protein-rich fare. Now two swww.healthday.com
Yeah, I don't think protein is the problem. It's all the sugar in most American's diets which is causing most health issues. Tread carefully with all those bananas Term.
Mister CIA
Footballguy
My usual fast day is Monday and not too fasted for weightllifting during lunch (mostly arms on Mondays too, so not really slaying); and then I skip cardio, as you do.
BUT, I'm about to go deep down the quantified self rabbit hole, as I picked up a Samsung watch/ring combo yesterday. We're off to a roaring start too - I logged 7 hrs 1 min of "actual sleep" my first night (Festivus miracle??). Anyone else here partake in wearables?
The Longtime Lurker
Footballguy
Yes, i use a watch to track everything. I take it with a grain of salt as far as how much stock i put into most of the data, but it works awesome to track your daily calorie burn so you can cross reference that with something like my fitness pal to really fine tune weight loss or gain. I have a Garmin instinct 2.
Mister CIA
Footballguy
Yeah, I view the accuracy of the sensor data from wearables with a healthy dose of skepticism, but with optimisim that we'll see some pretty significant advancements over the next few years. In a certain way, these devices are just very expensive metronomes I'm using to build better habits; but four years from now, maybe I'm getting alerts every 10 minutes reminding me to take my protein microdose. Regardless, I'm blindly committed ... to something.
The Longtime Lurker
Footballguy
I think they give a decent idea about a wide array of data, but like you say they are still a little ways from being accurate enough to take totally serious. HR data is good, calorie burn is good (once you kind of self calibrate to yourself), getting into workout zones is good. Things I'm skeptical of would be HRV, sleep scores, stress and recovery data, but overall i think it's a fun tool and as a data geek i like tracking and logging the info over time.
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
I’ve done all sorts of exercise while fasting, including lifting weights. The only activities I noticed performance dropping was endurance cycling and hiking, where I’ve “bonked” a couple times.
For optimal muscle growth, you're supposed to ingest protein within a short period after lifting, IIRC.
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
I don’t think there’s any data showing high protein intake in middle age is beneficial. On the contrary, your link suggests harm from excess, and animal studies have shown limiting protein/specific amino acids promotes longevity. But it's a really interesting topic.What I've seen is that high protein intake in middle age is a good idea if you use it, like consistent time in the gym, but that it can be detrimental if you're not active enough. That risk decreased and become beneficial over the age of 65 active or not.
The more I read about it and the more it's studied, the more I think middle aged men need to increase their protein take if they're lifting weights and want to build/sustain muscle. Of course, it depends what your goals are. I don't want to look like a marathon runner and hope to maintain a lean physique while being strong and agile.
- YouTube
Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.www.youtube.com
Probably better articles than this one, but just a quick search.
High-Protein Diets in Middle Age Might Shorten Life Span
TUESDAY, March 4, 2014 (HealthDay News) -- Millions of middle-aged Americans chow down each day on steaks, cheeseburgers and other protein-rich fare. Now two swww.healthday.com
You're right, any excess calories, whether derived from carbohydrate, fat, or protein are harmful. So utilizing all your calories intuituitively makes sense. With protein, that generally means building muscle.
Muscle is great, don't get me wrong, but I don't think it's as simple as get yooge = get healthy. While there's nothing wrong with building muscle for functionality, athletic performance, or even vanity, the anabolism activated by protein also promotes diseases of aging, via central metabolic regulators called mTOR and IGF-1. Certain amino acids are particularly potent up regulators of these pathways, namely branched chain amino acids (body builders know these are key for muscle growth) and methionine. As it turns out, animal protein, including whey, contains far more of these AAs than that derived from plants. This probably (partially) explains why high protein intake that correlates with disease (usually cancer, but also diabetes and vascular disease) seems to be limited to animal sources.
This all gets muddled a bit with aging, as we lose muscle mass and IGF-1 production. Sarcopenia and frailty can limit our functionality and promote falls, which also pose risk for untimely demise. So over age 65 or so, staving off muscle loss becomes more important than preventing cancer, and protein intake should be liberalized. But even then, there's no clear benefit ingesting more than 1.6 g/kg body weight protein daily. That's 2/3 of the commonly cited bro-science goal of 1 gram per pound, or more. We don't have convincing evidence the body can effectively use that much, eg. that it promotes further muscle growth/maintenance. So I see no reason to expose oneself to the added health risks.
Peter Attia, a longevity guru with whom I generally agree, is at the forefront of bulking up to promote functional longevity, without concern for excess protein intake. He argues we'll invariably lose muscle mass with age, so we should start with as much reserve as possible. Again, this sounds good on the surface, but I think there is a ceiling to optimal muscle mass for healthy aging. While I can't pinpoint exactly what that amount is, I can safely say all the functional octa- and nonagenarians I've encountered are rail thin, and extremely active. They weren't ever fixated on protein intake, or muscle bulk (athletes live longer than the general population, but not body builders). Moreover, the long-lived "blue zones" all consume diets with low protein content, typically less than 10-15% daily calories. That's like 50-75 grams of protein daily, for a 2000 kCal diet.
Attia summarily dismisses the entirety of nutrition research, including both animal and human studies on protein intake, in favor of frequent, intense exercise, powered by venison jerky. I'm all for frequent exercise (as long as you don't injure yourself
), but I don't think the usually scholarly Attia is following the science here. There are certainly limitations to our knowledge base, and nutrition + longevity research is plagued by conflicting data. Still, there are enough data dots to connect, in lab and population studies, along with biologic plausibility behind harm from too much protein.TL;DR Like everything else in the body, there is an optimal amount of protein intake, and by extension, muscle. Too little, and too much can be harmful. While bulking up may make you seem "fit" as a middle ager, there's reason to believe all that extra protein and bulk aren't doing you any favors in the long run. Pop nutrition's current obsession with protein has gone way overboard, imo, but it will take decades to realize the harm.
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Terminalxylem
Footballguy
There's a middle ground. I'd strive for more of a triathlete's build, which is definitely possible possible with 1 gram protein/kg BW daily.
The more I read about it and the more it's studied, the more I think middle aged men need to increase their protein take if they're lifting weights and want to build/sustain muscle. Of course, it depends what your goals are. I don't want to look like a marathon runner and hope to maintain a lean physique while being strong and agile.
- YouTube
Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.www.youtube.com
Last edited:
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
Ultraprocessed food is the biggest problem, for sure. But I'm not talking about optimal diet for our obesity crisis. I'm talking about optimal diet for functional longevity.What I've seen is that high protein intake in middle age is a good idea if you use it, like consistent time in the gym, but that it can be detrimental if you're not active enough. That risk decreased and become beneficial over the age of 65 active or not.
The more I read about it and the more it's studied, the more I think middle aged men need to increase their protein take if they're lifting weights and want to build/sustain muscle. Of course, it depends what your goals are. I don't want to look like a marathon runner and hope to maintain a lean physique while being strong and agile.
- YouTube
Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.www.youtube.com
Probably better articles than this one, but just a quick search.
High-Protein Diets in Middle Age Might Shorten Life Span
TUESDAY, March 4, 2014 (HealthDay News) -- Millions of middle-aged Americans chow down each day on steaks, cheeseburgers and other protein-rich fare. Now two swww.healthday.com
Yeah, I don't think protein is the problem. It's all the sugar in most American's diets which is causing most health issues. Tread carefully with all those bananas Term.
ETA My BMI, cholesterol panel, and hemoglobin A1c are all comfortably in the "normal" range (body fat on low side, intentionally).
I don't think bananas are a problem, for me, or in general. Are there healthier fruits? Sure, but the American Diabetes Association sets no limit on fruit intake, contrary to popular belief. I'm unaware of any reputable organization that does.
Now, if I were consuming bunches of bananas daily, akin to 150% maximal recommended daily protein intake, you might have a point.
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The Longtime Lurker
Footballguy
Good info. Thanks for posting it. Generally a fan of Attia aswell and agree with what you said.I don’t think there’s any data showing high protein intake in middle age is beneficial. On the contrary, your link suggests harm from excess, and animal studies have shown limiting protein/specific amino acids promotes longevity. But it's a really interesting topic.What I've seen is that high protein intake in middle age is a good idea if you use it, like consistent time in the gym, but that it can be detrimental if you're not active enough. That risk decreased and become beneficial over the age of 65 active or not.
The more I read about it and the more it's studied, the more I think middle aged men need to increase their protein take if they're lifting weights and want to build/sustain muscle. Of course, it depends what your goals are. I don't want to look like a marathon runner and hope to maintain a lean physique while being strong and agile.
- YouTube
Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.www.youtube.com
Probably better articles than this one, but just a quick search.
High-Protein Diets in Middle Age Might Shorten Life Span
TUESDAY, March 4, 2014 (HealthDay News) -- Millions of middle-aged Americans chow down each day on steaks, cheeseburgers and other protein-rich fare. Now two swww.healthday.com
You're right, any excess calories, whether derived from carbohydrate, fat, or protein are harmful. So utilizing all your calories intuituitively makes sense. With protein, that generally means building muscle.
Muscle is great, don't get me wrong, but I don't think it's as simple as get yooge = get healthy. While there's nothing wrong with building muscle for functionality, athletic performance, or even vanity, the anabolism activated by protein also promotes diseases of aging, via central metabolic regulators called mTOR and IGF-1. Certain amino acids are particularly potent up regulators of these pathways, namely branched chain amino acids (body builders know these are key for muscle growth) and methionine. As it turns out, animal protein, including whey, contains far more of these AAs than that derived from plants. This probably (partially) explains why the correlation between protein intake and disease (usually cancer, but also diabetes and vascular disease) seems to be limited to animal sources.
This all gets muddled a bit with aging, as we lose muscle mass and IGF-1 production. Sarcopenia and frailty can limit our functionality and promote falls, which also pose risk for untimely demise. So over age 65 or so, staving off muscle loss becomes more important than preventing cancer, and protein intake should be liberalized. But even then, there's no clear benefit in taking more than 1.6 g/kg body weight protein daily. That's 2/3 of the commonly cited bro-science goal of 1 gram per pound, or more. We don't have convincing evidence the body can effectively use that much, eg. that it promotes further muscle growth/maintenance. So I see no reason to expose oneself to the added health risks.
Peter Attia, a longevity guru with whom I generally agree, is at the forefront of bulking up to promote functional longevity, without concern for excess protein intake. He argues we'll invariably lose muscle mass with age, so we should start with as much reserve as possible. Again, this sounds good on the surface, but I think there is a ceiling to optimal muscle mass for healthy aging. While I can't pinpoint exactly what that amount is, I can safely say all the functional octa- and nonagenarians I've encountered are rail thin, and extremely active. They weren't ever fixated on protein intake, or muscle bulk (athletes live longer than general population, but not body builders). Moreover, the long-lived "blue zones" all consume diets with low protein content, typically less than 10-15% daily calories. That's like 50-75 grams of protein daily, for a 2000 kCal diet.
Attia summarily dismisses the entirety of nutrition research, including both animal and human studies on protein intake, in favor of frequent, intense exercise, powered by venison jerky. I'm all for frequent exercise (as long as you don't injure yourself
TL;DR Like everything else in the body, there is an optimal amount of protein intake, and by extension, muscle. Too little, and too much can be harmful. While bulking up may make you seem "fit" as a middle ager, there's reason to believe all that extra protein and bulk aren't doing you any favors in the long run. Pop nutrition's current obsession with protein has gone way overboard, imo, but it will take decades to realize the harm.
The Longtime Lurker
Footballguy
Interesting that we have the opposite experience. Good example of how people respond differently. I should clarify that i meant after daily intermittent fasting of 14-16hrs vs longer 24hr+, so basically before breakfast.
I did look up whether that preserves muscle better when trying to lose fat and from what i found it does not. Perhaps i was thinking of research into ketosis from a ketogenic diet where fat for fuel adaption might be better at preserving muscle while burning fat. I guess I was thinking more about preserving muscle during weight loss than building new muscle.
FarFromHome
Footballguy
My pea protein came in mail last night. Giddy up. This massive bag of pea protein sitting on the kitchen counter triggered a wife lecture. That turned into a compliment:
""Pea protein? What is your plan here? What are your goals? You don't need to lose weight. Your fit. Your already very muscular. What are you trying to do here?""
Go lay down in bed sweetie for your reward. Your words make daddy happy. Ha ha
""Pea protein? What is your plan here? What are your goals? You don't need to lose weight. Your fit. Your already very muscular. What are you trying to do here?""
Go lay down in bed sweetie for your reward. Your words make daddy happy. Ha ha
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
Kinda crazy how inconsistent Attia is in poo-pooing the value of nutrition literature, while simultaneously pimping things with virtually no science to support healthfulness, like venison jerky. Although he seems on the up-and-up, makes me think he’s motivated by secondary gain.Good info. Thanks for posting it. Generally a fan of Attia aswell and agree with what you said.I don’t think there’s any data showing high protein intake in middle age is beneficial. On the contrary, your link suggests harm from excess, and animal studies have shown limiting protein/specific amino acids promotes longevity. But it's a really interesting topic.What I've seen is that high protein intake in middle age is a good idea if you use it, like consistent time in the gym, but that it can be detrimental if you're not active enough. That risk decreased and become beneficial over the age of 65 active or not.
The more I read about it and the more it's studied, the more I think middle aged men need to increase their protein take if they're lifting weights and want to build/sustain muscle. Of course, it depends what your goals are. I don't want to look like a marathon runner and hope to maintain a lean physique while being strong and agile.
- YouTube
Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.www.youtube.com
Probably better articles than this one, but just a quick search.
High-Protein Diets in Middle Age Might Shorten Life Span
TUESDAY, March 4, 2014 (HealthDay News) -- Millions of middle-aged Americans chow down each day on steaks, cheeseburgers and other protein-rich fare. Now two swww.healthday.com
You're right, any excess calories, whether derived from carbohydrate, fat, or protein are harmful. So utilizing all your calories intuituitively makes sense. With protein, that generally means building muscle.
Muscle is great, don't get me wrong, but I don't think it's as simple as get yooge = get healthy. While there's nothing wrong with building muscle for functionality, athletic performance, or even vanity, the anabolism activated by protein also promotes diseases of aging, via central metabolic regulators called mTOR and IGF-1. Certain amino acids are particularly potent up regulators of these pathways, namely branched chain amino acids (body builders know these are key for muscle growth) and methionine. As it turns out, animal protein, including whey, contains far more of these AAs than that derived from plants. This probably (partially) explains why the correlation between protein intake and disease (usually cancer, but also diabetes and vascular disease) seems to be limited to animal sources.
This all gets muddled a bit with aging, as we lose muscle mass and IGF-1 production. Sarcopenia and frailty can limit our functionality and promote falls, which also pose risk for untimely demise. So over age 65 or so, staving off muscle loss becomes more important than preventing cancer, and protein intake should be liberalized. But even then, there's no clear benefit in taking more than 1.6 g/kg body weight protein daily. That's 2/3 of the commonly cited bro-science goal of 1 gram per pound, or more. We don't have convincing evidence the body can effectively use that much, eg. that it promotes further muscle growth/maintenance. So I see no reason to expose oneself to the added health risks.
Peter Attia, a longevity guru with whom I generally agree, is at the forefront of bulking up to promote functional longevity, without concern for excess protein intake. He argues we'll invariably lose muscle mass with age, so we should start with as much reserve as possible. Again, this sounds good on the surface, but I think there is a ceiling to optimal muscle mass for healthy aging. While I can't pinpoint exactly what that amount is, I can safely say all the functional octa- and nonagenarians I've encountered are rail thin, and extremely active. They weren't ever fixated on protein intake, or muscle bulk (athletes live longer than general population, but not body builders). Moreover, the long-lived "blue zones" all consume diets with low protein content, typically less than 10-15% daily calories. That's like 50-75 grams of protein daily, for a 2000 kCal diet.
Attia summarily dismisses the entirety of nutrition research, including both animal and human studies on protein intake, in favor of frequent, intense exercise, powered by venison jerky. I'm all for frequent exercise (as long as you don't injure yourself
TL;DR Like everything else in the body, there is an optimal amount of protein intake, and by extension, muscle. Too little, and too much can be harmful. While bulking up may make you seem "fit" as a middle ager, there's reason to believe all that extra protein and bulk aren't doing you any favors in the long run. Pop nutrition's current obsession with protein has gone way overboard, imo, but it will take decades to realize the harm.
It’s not a fringe idea among longevity researchers that excess protein, and specific amino acids promote aging. But this info is drowned out by pop nutrition’s demonization of carbohydrates, with commensurate high-protein evangelism. Next thing you know, we’ve got people fixated on dubious nutrients like ketones, and food fads like paleo/carnivorism, which have no semblance to a healthy diet.
In this very thread, how many times have plant-based diets, like Mediterranean and DASH been mentioned, in comparison to people bemoaning “carbs”, while clamoring for more protein?
American protein consumption per capita is among the highest in the world, about 114 grams/day, over 20% daily caloric intake. That’s well above what is recommended. So why does everyone seem to believe we need more?
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
I routinely skip breakfast (not ideal, healthwise), so 16ish hour intermittent fasts are my norm. Usually doesn’t impact physical performance at all.
Protein intake should be increased during rapid weight loss, but again, there’s no data to support the 1 gram per pound BW popularized in the manosphere. Almost invariably, obese people will loose some muscle, but they often have extra, as it’s work hauling around all that adipose tissue.
This issue has been brought up with weight loss drugs, but so far, it doesn’t look like they promote meaningful sarcopenia. This may become more of an issue, as more and more obese elderly lose weight.
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The Longtime Lurker
Footballguy
The health/longevity "Influencer" world is full of good info with a healthy dose of snake oil for good measure. See venison jerky, athletic greens, supplements, and hot takes to keep the clicks clicking and the money flowing. Sift out the BS and there can be value to a lot of the ideas/research they bring attention to.Kinda crazy how inconsistent Attia is in poo-pooing the value of nutrition literature, while simultaneously pimping things with virtually no science to support healthfulness, like venison jerky. Although he seems on the up-and-up, makes me think he’s motivated by secondary gain.Good info. Thanks for posting it. Generally a fan of Attia aswell and agree with what you said.I don’t think there’s any data showing high protein intake in middle age is beneficial. On the contrary, your link suggests harm from excess, and animal studies have shown limiting protein/specific amino acids promotes longevity. But it's a really interesting topic.What I've seen is that high protein intake in middle age is a good idea if you use it, like consistent time in the gym, but that it can be detrimental if you're not active enough. That risk decreased and become beneficial over the age of 65 active or not.
The more I read about it and the more it's studied, the more I think middle aged men need to increase their protein take if they're lifting weights and want to build/sustain muscle. Of course, it depends what your goals are. I don't want to look like a marathon runner and hope to maintain a lean physique while being strong and agile.
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Probably better articles than this one, but just a quick search.
High-Protein Diets in Middle Age Might Shorten Life Span
TUESDAY, March 4, 2014 (HealthDay News) -- Millions of middle-aged Americans chow down each day on steaks, cheeseburgers and other protein-rich fare. Now two swww.healthday.com
You're right, any excess calories, whether derived from carbohydrate, fat, or protein are harmful. So utilizing all your calories intuituitively makes sense. With protein, that generally means building muscle.
Muscle is great, don't get me wrong, but I don't think it's as simple as get yooge = get healthy. While there's nothing wrong with building muscle for functionality, athletic performance, or even vanity, the anabolism activated by protein also promotes diseases of aging, via central metabolic regulators called mTOR and IGF-1. Certain amino acids are particularly potent up regulators of these pathways, namely branched chain amino acids (body builders know these are key for muscle growth) and methionine. As it turns out, animal protein, including whey, contains far more of these AAs than that derived from plants. This probably (partially) explains why the correlation between protein intake and disease (usually cancer, but also diabetes and vascular disease) seems to be limited to animal sources.
This all gets muddled a bit with aging, as we lose muscle mass and IGF-1 production. Sarcopenia and frailty can limit our functionality and promote falls, which also pose risk for untimely demise. So over age 65 or so, staving off muscle loss becomes more important than preventing cancer, and protein intake should be liberalized. But even then, there's no clear benefit in taking more than 1.6 g/kg body weight protein daily. That's 2/3 of the commonly cited bro-science goal of 1 gram per pound, or more. We don't have convincing evidence the body can effectively use that much, eg. that it promotes further muscle growth/maintenance. So I see no reason to expose oneself to the added health risks.
Peter Attia, a longevity guru with whom I generally agree, is at the forefront of bulking up to promote functional longevity, without concern for excess protein intake. He argues we'll invariably lose muscle mass with age, so we should start with as much reserve as possible. Again, this sounds good on the surface, but I think there is a ceiling to optimal muscle mass for healthy aging. While I can't pinpoint exactly what that amount is, I can safely say all the functional octa- and nonagenarians I've encountered are rail thin, and extremely active. They weren't ever fixated on protein intake, or muscle bulk (athletes live longer than general population, but not body builders). Moreover, the long-lived "blue zones" all consume diets with low protein content, typically less than 10-15% daily calories. That's like 50-75 grams of protein daily, for a 2000 kCal diet.
Attia summarily dismisses the entirety of nutrition research, including both animal and human studies on protein intake, in favor of frequent, intense exercise, powered by venison jerky. I'm all for frequent exercise (as long as you don't injure yourself
TL;DR Like everything else in the body, there is an optimal amount of protein intake, and by extension, muscle. Too little, and too much can be harmful. While bulking up may make you seem "fit" as a middle ager, there's reason to believe all that extra protein and bulk aren't doing you any favors in the long run. Pop nutrition's current obsession with protein has gone way overboard, imo, but it will take decades to realize the harm.
It’s not a fringe idea among longevity researchers that excess protein, and specific amino acids promote aging. But this info is drowned out by pop nutrition’s demonization of carbohydrates, with commensurate high-protein evangelism. Next thing you know, we’ve got people fixated on dubious nutrients like ketones, and food fads like paleo/carnivorism, which have no semblance to any diet with a track record of promoting health.
In this very thread, how many times have plant-based diets, like Mediterranean and DASH been mentioned, in comparison to people bemoaning “carbs”, while clamoring for more protein?
American protein consumption per capita is among the highest in the world, about 114 grams/day, over 20% daily caloric intake. That’s well above what is recommended. So why does everyone seem to believe we need more?
Plant based Mediterranean diet is where I've settled. In my younger years i probably tried most of the popular fad diets to experiment and see how i would feel. Did keto for close to a year, so i was fully fat adapted and it had its pros, but the cons outweighed that in the end. So with that personal experience i feel safe to say for me Mediterranean diet works best. I do up the protein in the winter months when i do more lifting, but nothing crazy.
The Longtime Lurker
Footballguy
This was something i was curious about with those drugs. With the rapid weight-loss how much ultimately comes from losing muscle and what will that mean for injury as these populations age or are already in old age? Interesting that to date they're not having meaningful muscle loss. Instinctively i was thinking they may be detrimental in that regard by weakening lesser used stabilizer muscles and increasing injury risk.
The Longtime Lurker
Footballguy
Is intermittent fasting no longer considered a good idea for health?
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
I’m aware of one study on this topic, though the participants weren’t elderly IIRC.
In those late middle age and beyond, I imagine the double whammy of “normal” anabolic resistance will be compounded by pharmacologically enhanced weight loss. That may be the group to actually benefit from the gram per pound protein dogma.
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
Unclear. Studies show mixed results so far, but there’s data for time-restricted feeding promoting longevity in animals/model organisms.
Breakfast may be the worst meal to skip, however, related to diurnal cycles in stress hormones.
The Longtime Lurker
Footballguy
Interesting i never thought of the timing of the timing so to speak. So it's better to eat first thing and have an earlier dinner to get into the fasting window. That's good to know.
Major
Footballguy
I don't think it's wise to compare the average American who lives a sedentary lifestyle to those of us who are actively lifting weights, playing sport and exercising almost daily. As you age, protein becomes even more important for muscle growth, maintenance and recovery. All of our bodies respond differently though and most of have varying goals. The little guy down the street who preaches a vegan diet and does daily transcendental meditation, doesn't need to worry about consuming as much protein as a beast like me who's working on throwing a football over them mountains like I did back in 82
The Longtime Lurker
Footballguy
Forget them there mountains, how's the muscle ups coming?
I don't think it's wise to compare the average American who lives a sedentary lifestyle to those of us who are actively lifting weights, playing sport and exercising almost daily. As you age, protein becomes even more important for muscle growth, maintenance and recovery. All of our bodies respond differently though and most of have varying goals. The little guy down the street who preaches a vegan diet and does daily transcendental meditation, doesn't need to worry about consuming as much protein as a beast like me who's working on throwing a football over them mountains like I did back in 82
Major
Footballguy
I like intermittent fasting for cuts and weight loss just because I notice I don't eat as much throughout the day and seem to get leaner at a faster rate. At the end of the day, I think it has everything to do with calorie consumption more than when I work out and if I do it fasted. You really can't cheat calories unless you're on gear.
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
If your goal is to ensure you maintain as much muscle, for as long as possible, maybe. I’d still argue anything over 1.6 g/kg is gratuitous, but whatever.
I don't think it's wise to compare the average American who lives a sedentary lifestyle to those of us who are actively lifting weights, playing sport and exercising almost daily. As you age, protein becomes even more important for muscle growth, maintenance and recovery. All of our bodies respond differently though and most of have varying goals. The little guy down the street who preaches a vegan diet and does daily transcendental meditation, doesn't need to worry about consuming as much protein as a beast like me who's working on throwing a football over them mountains like I did back in 82
OTOH, if you want to maximize healthspan, the high protein plan might not work out so well.
Major
Footballguy
Forget them there mountains, how's the muscle ups coming?
I don't think it's wise to compare the average American who lives a sedentary lifestyle to those of us who are actively lifting weights, playing sport and exercising almost daily. As you age, protein becomes even more important for muscle growth, maintenance and recovery. All of our bodies respond differently though and most of have varying goals. The little guy down the street who preaches a vegan diet and does daily transcendental meditation, doesn't need to worry about consuming as much protein as a beast like me who's working on throwing a football over them mountains like I did back in 82
Major
Footballguy
If your goal is to ensure you maintain as much muscle, for as long as possible, maybe. I’d still argue anything over 1.6 g/kg is gratuitous, but whatever.
I don't think it's wise to compare the average American who lives a sedentary lifestyle to those of us who are actively lifting weights, playing sport and exercising almost daily. As you age, protein becomes even more important for muscle growth, maintenance and recovery. All of our bodies respond differently though and most of have varying goals. The little guy down the street who preaches a vegan diet and does daily transcendental meditation, doesn't need to worry about consuming as much protein as a beast like me who's working on throwing a football over them mountains like I did back in 82
OTOH, if you want to maximize healthspan, not so much.
I guess we differ theoretically. I think lifting weights and carrying muscle has so many more benefits for my mind and body than purely aesthetics.
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
I agree lifting weights and maintaining muscle is great. While I’m sure you imagine me as some frail egghead, I’ve spent plenty of time in the gym. Though I’ve transitioned away from lifting, by no means have I given up on maintaining strength.If your goal is to ensure you maintain as much muscle, for as long as possible, maybe. I’d still argue anything over 1.6 g/kg is gratuitous, but whatever.
I don't think it's wise to compare the average American who lives a sedentary lifestyle to those of us who are actively lifting weights, playing sport and exercising almost daily. As you age, protein becomes even more important for muscle growth, maintenance and recovery. All of our bodies respond differently though and most of have varying goals. The little guy down the street who preaches a vegan diet and does daily transcendental meditation, doesn't need to worry about consuming as much protein as a beast like me who's working on throwing a football over them mountains like I did back in 82
OTOH, if you want to maximize healthspan, not so much.
I guess we differ theoretically. I think lifting weights and carrying muscle has so many more benefits for my mind and body than purely aesthetics.
We differ in opinion about how much muscle/strength is enough. More importantly, what level of protein intake is necessary to achieve that goal, in the context of living a long, healthy life?
While the first statement is pretty subjective, there’s an objective answer to the second question, or enough data to generate a ballpark estimate, at least.
Major
Footballguy
I agree lifting weights and maintaining muscle is great. While I’m sure you imagine me as some frail egghead, I’ve spent plenty of time in the gym. Though I’ve transitioned away from lifting, by no means have I given up on maintaining strength.If your goal is to ensure you maintain as much muscle, for as long as possible, maybe. I’d still argue anything over 1.6 g/kg is gratuitous, but whatever.
I don't think it's wise to compare the average American who lives a sedentary lifestyle to those of us who are actively lifting weights, playing sport and exercising almost daily. As you age, protein becomes even more important for muscle growth, maintenance and recovery. All of our bodies respond differently though and most of have varying goals. The little guy down the street who preaches a vegan diet and does daily transcendental meditation, doesn't need to worry about consuming as much protein as a beast like me who's working on throwing a football over them mountains like I did back in 82
OTOH, if you want to maximize healthspan, not so much.
I guess we differ theoretically. I think lifting weights and carrying muscle has so many more benefits for my mind and body than purely aesthetics.
We differ in opinion about how much muscle/strength is enough. More importantly, what level of protein intake is necessary to achieve that goal, in the context of living a long, healthy life?
While the first statement is pretty subjective, there’s an objective answer to the second question, or enough data to generate a ballpark estimate, at least.
Haha, I don't think that. I do enjoy the banter because you seem to take on this anti protein approach that categorizes it as a bro science while I think there is a lot of evidence that increased protein helps aging men maintain their health and muscle.
