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[Dancing Bear]

FYI, MJD's 74 yarder was a fluke play when ran into the back of his blocker at the line of scrimmage, fell down, and then defense stopped playing because they thought the play was over. Bush is by far the more legit home run threat imo.

Bloom,I could not disagree with your assessment of Bush more.I could say the same for Bush's 88 TD reception against the Bears ... It was only a fluke, blah, blah, blah.Bush is HYPE [and don't mis-understand me, some of that is good for the NFL]. He however, has not proven he can run the ball successfully in the NFL. Against the leagues better Defenses [CHI, CAR, PHI, TB, ATL, BAL] he was held to a pedestrian 3.0 ypr. Against the leagues worst Defenses [sF, DAL, NYG, WAS, CIN, GB, CLE] he had a 4.4 ypr.He had only 14 runs last year of over 10 yards. Only 1 was for over 20 yards.His running mate McAllister had 21 runs last year of over 10 yards. 8 of these were over 20 yards!IMHO, you are not reviewing the facts. You are accepting the HYPE. Why else would a 2nd string RB be shown several times in a TV commercial instead of a 1st string RB.MJD showed that he can carry the rock against a variety of Defenses and significantly out-perform Bush.

 

[TheFanatic]

WOW, this arguement again, isn't this getting alittle old by now. You say USC opened up hallways for the USC rb's to run through but I would argue Bush went to the outside and outran people for most of his big runs. I agree the "HALLWAYS" helped Lendale run off tackle but if you watched Reggie alot in college, like I did, you would know that his big runs were to the outside. You can definetly say he doesn't run good between the tackles but I would argue why do it if you can run GREAT around the corner. The arguement is all in the eyes of the beholders.

Doing that in college and doing it in the pros are two different things. If you notice that Bush going around the outside didn't yield him any long runs last season because the pro linebackers he faced didn't allow it to happen. Same reason nobody runs the option in the NFL. The Linebackers are too fast. The argument is also in the stat line and the stat line states that Bush can't break the long run around the outside and can't run between the tackles. The guy is an amazing talent, but I think he needs to put on a number in the 80's and not try to play RB. I'm sure he will have some long runs this year as he learns the league better and I'm sure he will learn to do more with a small hole in the line, but in the grand scheme of things MJD is the more polished/all around RB. He can hit the hole with authority, shake off tackles and catch the ball really well also...

I can't sit here and say Reggie is more talented or vice versa, you've seen one year of both guys in the pros. The only reason I can believe Bush is more talented is pro scouts who get paid for a living selected Bush and then selected Jones Drew 58 picks later. Every once in awhile great surprises happen and Jones Drew was a great surprise but I would rather take the more skilled player in the eyes of experts than the surprise player. Just my 2 cents.

This comment is just ridiculous. Why? I'll just list a few names and you: Tom Brady, Kurt Warner, Curtis Martin, Terrell Davis, Jerry Rice, Joe Montana, London Fletcher....All are guys that vastly outperformed their draft position (or weren't drafted at all ala London Fletcher). Those same professional scouts missed the boat on all those guys. And then you have the flip side of that. Ryan Leaf? 2nd overall? Lawrence Phillips 6th overall? How about Eddie Kennison being selected a pick ahead of Marvin Harrison? How about Trung Candidate in the 1st round? I could go on and on. How about other sports? Two players were picked ahead of Michael Jordan!!!So, according to this line of reasoning you would like all the QB's selected ahead of Tom Brady that year? Or any of the RB's selected ahead of Curtis Martin. Eddie Kennison surely must be better than Marvin Harrison....

 

[3nOut]

I might be missing something, but trying to predict a RB's future success based on their first-year rushing yardage in relation to that of other RBs over the years seems pointless. Surely the situation they are in in their first year has overwhelming relevance? Shaun Alexander found himself behind Ricky Watters his first year and therefore didn't get much chance to rack up the yardage. Same goes for Jackson behind Faulk and LJ behind Holmes. Crunching numbers isn't going to help when each first-year RB is in his own unique situation.

I agree. If any kind of study is to be doe, it should also factor in the following (among others):1. When the RB was used, was he RB1 or a backup2. Used as a goaline back3. Third downs?4. Was he used when others were injured (I beleve Jax had 2 other RBs on their roster that were injured)5. Was HE injured any portion of the season6. Include receiving yards as well as rushing7. Did they share carries for more than one year or did they become the primary back? 8. How was their OL?9. How was their team in general?10. Does schedule play a factor?There are probably many other factors I have considered as well

 

[3nOut]

I'm also curious as to what this conversation would be like if Bush was drafted by Houston last year instead of NO. Houston has had decent run blocking and Reggie may hve been able to put up better numbers there last year as he wulf have been the primary carrier. Let's assume he actually had better stats, would we be having this conversation? Would peple be doubting his talent?

 

[TheFanatic]

I'm also curious as to what this conversation would be like if Bush was drafted by Houston last year instead of NO. Houston has had decent run blocking and Reggie may hve been able to put up better numbers there last year as he wulf have been the primary carrier. Let's assume he actually had better stats, would we be having this conversation? Would peple be doubting his talent?

That's a really messed up argument. See, in NO we have another RB who had the same blockers in front of him who did much better than Bush. What he could've done in Houston is really a moot point and shouldn't even be considered....

 

[3nOut]

I'm also curious as to what this conversation would be like if Bush was drafted by Houston last year instead of NO. Houston has had decent run blocking and Reggie may hve been able to put up better numbers there last year as he wulf have been the primary carrier. Let's assume he actually had better stats, would we be having this conversation? Would peple be doubting his talent?

That's a really messed up argument. See, in NO we have another RB who had the same blockers in front of him who did much better than Bush. What he could've done in Houston is really a moot point and shouldn't even be considered....

Why is that messed up? Bush was used sparingly and differently than he was in NO. And he would NOT be splitting carries in Houston. There IS a very good chance his stats would have been better in HOuston his rookie year than in NO. You are right, however, that we should not consider what he could have done in Houston for this study, I just brought it up as something for those who are anti-Bush to consider. Bush is a unique talent, no question.

 

[EBF]

The people who are doubting Bush are the same people who were doubting him prior to his rookie season (Fanatic, SSOG).

The people who are touting him are the same people who were touting him prior to his rookie season (myself, Chaos Commish).

The reality is that it's a bit too early to get hung up on the numbers. You can't crown a guy king or bury him based on one season of RBBC statistics. So while Bush's YPC might not have been great last season, I don't think that necessarily means a whole lot. Some of the best backs in the NFL got off to slow starts. Tiki Barber averaged 3.8 and 3.2 YPC during his first two seasons. LaDainian Tomlinson averaged 3.6 YPC. Anthony Thomas and William Green both did better than that. Are LT and Barber exceptions? Maybe. But I think we can all agree that 200 is not a lot of carries. If you made your determination of every player based on his first 200 carries, you'd end up with some inconsistent results.

That said, I'm not sure why people are so quick to doubt a guy who won the Heisman, was a top 2 draft pick, had a phenomenal combine, and demonstrated serious playmaking potential during his rookie season. This seems like the kind of player you should expect big things from. The talk of moving him to WR is nothing short of stupid. He weighs over 200 pounds and has yet to provide us with a legitimate reason to believe that he can't handle a lot of touches. He touched the ball almost 20 times per game in college and never had a serious injury of any sort. Guys like Brian Westbrook and Tiki Barber (who have a similar playing style) have managed to become some of the best RBs in FF.

But, as I said earlier, it's too early to draw any lasting conclusions based on the stats. You can look at his low YPC and conclude that he can't rush the football. Or you can look at his second half YPC improvement and his staggering reception totals and conclude that he's going to be a star. Time will tell.

 

[Dancing Bear]

EBF,

Clearly you are either drinking too much Reggie Bush Kool-Aid or you forgot how to read.

Bush averaged a small amount over 15 carries his senior year and a small amount over 11 carries his junior year. He also only had 2.8 receptions a game in his senior year and 3.2 receptions a game in his junior year. He was a 2nd string RB in college and he is a 2nd string RB in New Orleans.

These numbers in NO WAY show that he can carry the rock as a featured RB in the NFL 20 or more times. Please ...

On top of the fact that you are completely ignoring the point of this thread which is to assess past performance in the NFL and project future value and performance. Part of that process has to be to ignore the HYPE and potential and address the performance [even if it is a small 1 year sample size].

Bush finished the year with a pedestrian 3.7 ypc.

Bush had 35 plays of 10 yards or more. 14 of these were running plays. 1 of these running plays was 20 or more yards.

I have already stated his huge discrepancy in ypc between when he faced any sort of Defense or not. So I really see no need in having you try to bring up that he did better in the 2nd half as a rusher. The numbers show it, but not when correlated to the strength of the opposing defenses.

If you look at how MJD performed it is not even a close race!

MJD averaged 5.7 ypc! That is 2.0 ypc more than Bush!

MJD had 39 plays of 10 yards or more. 26 of these were running plays. 7 of these running plays were 20 or more yards.

All that being said, I am not intending to state that Bush is the next Ron Dayne-like bust; simply that he is not worthy of the extreme amount of HYPE nor is he performing at a level equivalent to MJD. Until that changes he will not be a better RB than MJD in my eyes.

 

[EBF]

EBF,Clearly you are either drinking too much Reggie Bush Kool-Aid or you forgot how to read.Bush averaged a small amount over 15 carries his senior year and a small amount over 11 carries his junior year. He also only had 2.8 receptions a game in his senior year and 3.2 receptions a game in his junior year. He was a 2nd string RB in college and he is a 2nd string RB in New Orleans.These numbers in NO WAY show that he can carry the rock as a featured RB in the NFL 20 or more times. Please ...

When you factor in receptions and returns, I'm pretty sure he averaged about 20 touches per game in college.And the only way to prove that you can "can carry the rock as a featured RB in the NFL 20 or more times" is by actually doing it. Until Bush gets that opportunity, we won't know whether he can or can't handle the workload. The fact that he hasn't done it in no way proves that he can't. He has never had a serious injury in his career and is the same size or bigger than a number of RBs who have amassed tons of touches in their careers. Nothing about Tiki Barber's first five seasons suggested that he could "carry the rock as a featured RB in the NFL 20 or more times." He averaged about 170 carries per season for his first five years. He averaged 300+ carries per season for the next five years. We didn't know he could handle that kind of load until he got the opportunity. If FF players had all adopted your line of reasoning, they wouldn't have been able to get Barber until after his price tag had already skyrocketed. So while it might be foolish to assume that Bush will someday be a 300+ carry running back, there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that he can't handle a heavy workload. Those claims are pure speculation on the part of his detractors. Calling him a 2nd string RB is just further proof that you're not looking at this one objectively. Did you ever actually watch USC play when Reggie was there? He and White both got tons of time. But if anyone was second string, it was White. He was the one who would run wild in the second half while the coaches rested Reggie. But let me guess, because you saw one game against Texas where the coaches opted to use LenDale White in a short-yardage situation and concluded that Reggie is the backup? Even if you were right, there's no shame in sharing time with guys like White and McAllister. White was utterly dominant in college. McAllister is one of the 10 best RBs in the NFL. And for the record, Willie Parker, Brian Westbrook, Larry Johnson, Ahman Green, and Shaun Alexander were backups at one point in their NFL careers. Should we disregard them too?

On top of the fact that you are completely ignoring the point of this thread which is to assess past performance in the NFL and project future value and performance. Part of that process has to be to ignore the HYPE and potential and address the performance [even if it is a small 1 year sample size].Bush finished the year with a pedestrian 3.7 ypc.Bush had 35 plays of 10 yards or more. 14 of these were running plays. 1 of these running plays was 20 or more yards.I have already stated his huge discrepancy in ypc between when he faced any sort of Defense or not. So I really see no need in having you try to bring up that he did better in the 2nd half as a rusher. The numbers show it, but not when correlated to the strength of the opposing defenses.If you look at how MJD performed it is not even a close race!MJD averaged 5.7 ypc! That is 2.0 ypc more than Bush!MJD had 39 plays of 10 yards or more. 26 of these were running plays. 7 of these running plays were 20 or more yards.All that being said, I am not intending to state that Bush is the next Ron Dayne-like bust; simply that he is not worthy of the extreme amount of HYPE nor is he performing at a level equivalent to MJD. Until that changes he will not be a better RB than MJD in my eyes.

I'm not ignoring the point of the thread. However, as I stated earlier, I don't personally think that 150-200 carries is a big enough sample size to draw any lasting conclusions. I believe in patterns. But I also understand that there are exceptions to every rule. So while guys who averaged 3.7 YPC during their rookie year might not have historically gone on to great careers, how many of those guys were Heisman winners and top 2 draft picks with silly combine numbers? Maybe I'm crazy, but I don't necessarily think historical trends are the best way to gauge a guy like Reggie Bush.

 

[Chase Stuart]

I'm not ignoring the point of the thread. However, as I stated earlier, I don't personally think that 150-200 carries is a big enough sample size to draw any lasting conclusions. I believe in patterns. But I also understand that there are exceptions to every rule. So while guys who averaged 3.7 YPC during their rookie year might not have historically gone on to great careers, how many of those guys were Heisman winners and top 2 draft picks with silly combine numbers? Maybe I'm crazy, but I don't necessarily think historical trends are the best way to gauge a guy like Reggie Bush.

Interestingly enough, the relatively small 50 point difference in points scored last year is weighed almost as heavily as the enormous YPC differential. Why is a low YPC average for a rookie not so terrifying? Emmitt Smith (3.9 YPC average as a rookie, 3,025 fantasy points scored the rest of his career), Marshall Faulk (4.1, 2,479), Curtis Martin (4.0, 2,078), Tiki Barber (3.8, 1860), Roger Craig (4.1, 1561), Eddie George (4.1, 1532), Charlie Garner (3.7, 1322) and James Wilder (3.5, 1115) all had great careers despite not running very well as rookies. The fact that Barber, Garner and Wilder — all excellent receivers — had similar YPC averages to Bush is good news for Bush fans.

 

[(HULK)]

I absolutely hate this type of analysis paralysis. Those past RBs have absolutely NOTHING to do with Reg and Mo. It's similar to flipping a coin ten times and getting heads on the first 9 tries. The law of averages says that the 10th flip should be tails. But guess what? The tenth flip is actually independent of the first nine and has just as good a chance of being heads again. Reg and Mo each have their own unique situation that has nothing to do with the RBs of the past.Both are studs. Reg has more electrifying cuts but Mo has a lot more power. Both have elite speed and burst. Reg is the better receiver, but Mo is also VERY good at catching the ball. Reg's height also gives him an advantage over the mighty midget when it comes to receiving. Both have great vision, but Mo is MUCH better at running through contact.The problem with both is that they will be splitting time for at least another year as Deuce and Fragile will get their touches as well.

I agree strongly with this posting.I honestly think it is a mistake to base analysis of 2nd year players so heavily on where they were drafted... scouts hit and miss all the time. We've all seen these two guys play plenty, we know what kind of talents they have.It amazes me that people will go soooooo far out of their way to dream up reasons why they should draft Bush well before MJD. Keep it up, and I'll keep drafting MJD in the 2nd round, thanks.MJD outperforms Bush this year again. He'll have twice the TDs, and twice the rushing yards. Bush will have slightly more receptions and receiving yards.WE HAVE NO LEGITIMATE REASON TO BELIEVE OTHERWISE!!! Shake off the Madden 08 commericals people.

 

[Wadsworth]

When all is said and done at this point in time the only reason to think that Bush will out perform Drew in the future is "potential". Yes, you can call plays flukes, compare only certain games and revisit college stats that seem to paint a prettier picture for Bush. But bottom line is Drew was better in the only season each has played in the NFL. While some would say that that doesn't matter so much, I'm betting that if Bush out-played Drew last season and people where now on this board saying Drew was actually better inspite Bush outperforming him, the same people now pimping Bush's better "potential" would think that was insane.

Maybe Bush goes wild this year, he is amazing. But there's no reason to reasonably expext him to out perform Drew this season at this point.

 

[Chase Stuart]

When all is said and done at this point in time the only reason to think that Bush will out perform Drew in the future is "potential". Yes, you can call plays flukes, compare only certain games and revisit college stats that seem to paint a prettier picture for Bush. But bottom line is Drew was better in the only season each has played in the NFL. While some would say that that doesn't matter so much, I'm betting that if Bush out-played Drew last season and people where now on this board saying Drew was actually better inspite Bush outperforming him, the same people now pimping Bush's better "potential" would think that was insane. Maybe Bush goes wild this year, he is amazing. But there's no reason to reasonably expext him to out perform Drew this season at this point.

Do you disagree that several non-first round picks have stud rookie years and then fade out? And that several top 10 picks have less than stellar rookie years but then fulfill their potential?There's certainly some reason to expect Bush to outperform Drew. What you do in the NFL is more important than what you do in college or the combine, but we're comparing one year to four. That changes things. We've got a more relevant but smaller sample of data that says Bush is worse, and a less relevant but larger sample that says Bush is better. I don't think anything is clear cut.

 

[SSOG]

The people who are doubting Bush are the same people who were doubting him prior to his rookie season (Fanatic, SSOG).

Who says I'm doubting Reggie Bush? I still stand by the fact that he has done nothing to warrant the hype that he has received, and I still stand by the fact that in no way, shape, or form does he deserve to be the highest paid runningback in the entire National Football League, but I don't "doubt" him by any stretch of the imagination. I have participated in three drafts so far. Only once has he fallen to my pick, and I wound up picking him (#11 overall). I don't think that Reggie Bush is going to be as good as Maurice Jones-Drew, but that has nothing to do with how good I think Bush is, and everything to do with how good I think Jones-Drew is.

 

[Wadsworth]

When all is said and done at this point in time the only reason to think that Bush will out perform Drew in the future is "potential". Yes, you can call plays flukes, compare only certain games and revisit college stats that seem to paint a prettier picture for Bush. But bottom line is Drew was better in the only season each has played in the NFL. While some would say that that doesn't matter so much, I'm betting that if Bush out-played Drew last season and people where now on this board saying Drew was actually better inspite Bush outperforming him, the same people now pimping Bush's better "potential" would think that was insane. Maybe Bush goes wild this year, he is amazing. But there's no reason to reasonably expext him to out perform Drew this season at this point.

Do you disagree that several non-first round picks have stud rookie years and then fade out? And that several top 10 picks have less than stellar rookie years but then fulfill their potential?There's certainly some reason to expect Bush to outperform Drew. What you do in the NFL is more important than what you do in college or the combine, but we're comparing one year to four. That changes things. We've got a more relevant but smaller sample of data that says Bush is worse, and a less relevant but larger sample that says Bush is better. I don't think anything is clear cut.

Do you think those same NFL scouting experts that let Drew fall to Jacksonville in the 2nd round would do so again after watching him play last season? I don't think they would. Because after wacthing him play real NFL games at a high level they'd be smart enough to admit that they were wrong and his draft position was a gross error on their part. If that's so then why would anyone try and predict future production based on an error? Maybe they'd still draft Bush before him, but I'd bet it would not be by much. And if they did still draft Bush first, they could again be just as wrong as they were in 2006. I'm just as amazed at Reggie Bush's skills as anyone, I get the reason for the hype. But in fantasy I'll always take production over potential. I'll be wrong sometimes, but in the long run I'll win more than I'll lose.

 

[The Kansas Comet]

Having seen a lot of Reggie Bush and Maurice Jones-Drew in college (UCLA season ticket holder), I say that anyone who thinks that the NFL draft positions of these two dictates who has more talent is probably overlooking how much better Bush’s surrounding cast was, and how much easier they made life for him. Before I go further, let me say that while I despise ‘SC, I think Bush is a tremendous talent and some of the plays he made in college were absolutely stupefying and could have only been made by someone with extremely rare physical ability (the cutback on a dime against Fresno State and the plant/cut he made after hurdling a player in the secondary against Notre Dame without slowing down come to mind).

That being said, I don’t think the gap between his ability and MJD’s is as far as their draft picks suggest. I think some of the perception of that gap is due to hype. Bush was a running, catching highlight film playing for one of the most acclaimed and glamorous college teams in history. They were playing big games on television every week (usually with Bush making at least one jaw-dropping play). The Trojans were the top team in the land for most of the season, defending national champs, and boasted a roster full of NFL talent. Here are the list of Trojans who are in the NFL from that offense: Bush, Leinart, LenDale White, Steve Smith, Dwayne Jarrett, and Dominique Byrd. Obviously a defense couldn’t marshal all its resources toward stopping Bush simply because there were so many other weapons at USC’s disposal. So Bush certainly benefited from less attention from opposing defenses than he would have if he had gone to a school with less talent. In Drew’s case, the only Bruin skill position players who made it to the NFL from the ’05 team are Drew Olsen (who might get cut by the Ravens) and Marcedes Lewis. Lewis was a great threat (Mackey Award winner) and Olsen put together a great season, but that was due in great part because defenses made Maurice Drew the #1 focus of defenses.

Now looking at the talent on the offensive lines, the gap between the supporting casts of Bush and Drew grows significantly. The tackles on the USC team were Winston Justice (Eagles), and Sam Baker (Scout Inc.’s #2 rated offensive lineman in this year’s senior class). The guards were Fred Matua (Browns) and Deuce Lutui (Cardinals). And the center was Ryan Kalil (Panthers). That’s an impressive collection of talent on the o-line, certainly one of the best o-lines in recent college history.

Drew’s offensive line was Ed Blanton and Brian Abraham at tackles, Robert Cleary and Shannon Tevaga at guard (Scout Inc’s #4 rated senior o-lineman this year) and Mike McCloskey at center. None of those players are in the NFL (Abraham is a senior, as is Tevaga).

Both were very highly regarded in high school. Bush was Rivals.com’s #2 player overall, while MJD was Rivals.com’s #1 all-purpose running back (don’t ask me how they make the distinction between running back and all-purpose RB – I have no idea). But certainly they demonstrated game-breaking talent in high school.

As to how they were employed, the primary difference between the two is that Drew was used between the tackles and at the goal line as UCLA’s primary ball carrier (perhaps out of necessity, and certainly due to his talent), while LenDale White would be regarded as Thunder to Bush’s Lightning. Bush would be moved around more frequently than Drew, lining up as a receiver from time to time. However, MJD got his share of catches, catching 31 passes (to Bush’s 37) at 14.6 per catch (to Bush’s 12.9). Of course, that was also due to necessity as much as anything, since UCLA’s receiving corps wasn’t nearly as dangerous as USC’s, though I think it speaks to MJD’s game-breaking talent that he averaged more per catch than Bush.

MJD led the nation in punt returns that year (and was the All-Amercian kick returner as well), averaging 28.5 yards per return, returning 3 for touchdowns. Bush averaged 9.9 yards per return, returning 1 for a touchdown.

None of this is to say that Bush didn’t deserve the accolades. He averaged an unreal 8.7 yards per rush (while Drew averaged 4.9) and was the best player on the second best team in the nation. However, I wonder what the numbers would have been had their situations been reversed, with Bush at UCLA and MJD at USC. Heck, MJD would have enjoyed running against the Bruins defense that year – his stats certainly would have been boosted by that. The point I am trying to make is that even though the players were drafted fairly far apart, their talent is much closer than people think. And overall, I think MJD’s build will allow him to be a more complete feature running back than Bush when the time comes. He’s a more physical runner. I think Bush will be more of a multi-purpose back, moved around the offensive formation to create mismatches with his speed. I think Bush is in a better position with regard to his QB and offensive line situations, but that can change fairly quickly.

Overall, if I were in a Dynasty league, I would love to have both, but I would prefer Drew because I see him being able to do many of the things that makes Bush special (break long runs, take short passes the distance, be a big factor on special teams) as well as be a strong runner near the goal line. Bush may demonstrate that ability, but to this point, he hasn’t done so to the extent MJD has, in my opinion.

 

[LawFitz]

Having seen a lot of Reggie Bush and Maurice Jones-Drew in college (UCLA season ticket holder), I say that anyone who thinks that the NFL draft positions of these two dictates who has more talent is probably overlooking how much better Bush’s surrounding cast was, and how much easier they made life for him. Before I go further, let me say that while I despise ‘SC, I think Bush is a tremendous talent and some of the plays he made in college were absolutely stupefying and could have only been made by someone with extremely rare physical ability (the cutback on a dime against Fresno State and the plant/cut he made after hurdling a player in the secondary against Notre Dame without slowing down come to mind).That being said, I don’t think the gap between his ability and MJD’s is as far as their draft picks suggest. I think some of the perception of that gap is due to hype. Bush was a running, catching highlight film playing for one of the most acclaimed and glamorous college teams in history. They were playing big games on television every week (usually with Bush making at least one jaw-dropping play). The Trojans were the top team in the land for most of the season, defending national champs, and boasted a roster full of NFL talent. Here are the list of Trojans who are in the NFL from that offense: Bush, Leinart, LenDale White, Steve Smith, Dwayne Jarrett, and Dominique Byrd. Obviously a defense couldn’t marshal all its resources toward stopping Bush simply because there were so many other weapons at USC’s disposal. So Bush certainly benefited from less attention from opposing defenses than he would have if he had gone to a school with less talent. In Drew’s case, the only Bruin skill position players who made it to the NFL from the ’05 team are Drew Olsen (who might get cut by the Ravens) and Marcedes Lewis. Lewis was a great threat (Mackey Award winner) and Olsen put together a great season, but that was due in great part because defenses made Maurice Drew the #1 focus of defenses.Now looking at the talent on the offensive lines, the gap between the supporting casts of Bush and Drew grows significantly. The tackles on the USC team were Winston Justice (Eagles), and Sam Baker (Scout Inc.’s #2 rated offensive lineman in this year’s senior class). The guards were Fred Matua (Browns) and Deuce Lutui (Cardinals). And the center was Ryan Kalil (Panthers). That’s an impressive collection of talent on the o-line, certainly one of the best o-lines in recent college history.Drew’s offensive line was Ed Blanton and Brian Abraham at tackles, Robert Cleary and Shannon Tevaga at guard (Scout Inc’s #4 rated senior o-lineman this year) and Mike McCloskey at center. None of those players are in the NFL (Abraham is a senior, as is Tevaga). Both were very highly regarded in high school. Bush was Rivals.com’s #2 player overall, while MJD was Rivals.com’s #1 all-purpose running back (don’t ask me how they make the distinction between running back and all-purpose RB – I have no idea). But certainly they demonstrated game-breaking talent in high school.As to how they were employed, the primary difference between the two is that Drew was used between the tackles and at the goal line as UCLA’s primary ball carrier (perhaps out of necessity, and certainly due to his talent), while LenDale White would be regarded as Thunder to Bush’s Lightning. Bush would be moved around more frequently than Drew, lining up as a receiver from time to time. However, MJD got his share of catches, catching 31 passes (to Bush’s 37) at 14.6 per catch (to Bush’s 12.9). Of course, that was also due to necessity as much as anything, since UCLA’s receiving corps wasn’t nearly as dangerous as USC’s, though I think it speaks to MJD’s game-breaking talent that he averaged more per catch than Bush.MJD led the nation in punt returns that year (and was the All-Amercian kick returner as well), averaging 28.5 yards per return, returning 3 for touchdowns. Bush averaged 9.9 yards per return, returning 1 for a touchdown.None of this is to say that Bush didn’t deserve the accolades. He averaged an unreal 8.7 yards per rush (while Drew averaged 4.9) and was the best player on the second best team in the nation. However, I wonder what the numbers would have been had their situations been reversed, with Bush at UCLA and MJD at USC. Heck, MJD would have enjoyed running against the Bruins defense that year – his stats certainly would have been boosted by that. The point I am trying to make is that even though the players were drafted fairly far apart, their talent is much closer than people think. And overall, I think MJD’s build will allow him to be a more complete feature running back than Bush when the time comes. He’s a more physical runner. I think Bush will be more of a multi-purpose back, moved around the offensive formation to create mismatches with his speed. I think Bush is in a better position with regard to his QB and offensive line situations, but that can change fairly quickly. Overall, if I were in a Dynasty league, I would love to have both, but I would prefer Drew because I see him being able to do many of the things that makes Bush special (break long runs, take short passes the distance, be a big factor on special teams) as well as be a strong runner near the goal line. Bush may demonstrate that ability, but to this point, he hasn’t done so to the extent MJD has, in my opinion.

check that, FANTASTIC posting.Both backs are and will be amazing (barring injury). Especially once they become primary instead of RBBC backs. Anyone who has written off Reg as not capable of being a feature back someday severely underestimates the man's heart, desire and toughness. And this is coming from a UCLA alum and 7-yr running season ticket holder.

 

[3nOut]

When all is said and done at this point in time the only reason to think that Bush will out perform Drew in the future is "potential". Yes, you can call plays flukes, compare only certain games and revisit college stats that seem to paint a prettier picture for Bush. But bottom line is Drew was better in the only season each has played in the NFL. While some would say that that doesn't matter so much, I'm betting that if Bush out-played Drew last season and people where now on this board saying Drew was actually better inspite Bush outperforming him, the same people now pimping Bush's better "potential" would think that was insane.

Maybe Bush goes wild this year, he is amazing. But there's no reason to reasonably expext him to out perform Drew this season at this point.

Hard to say who will have the better numbers, but there ARE reasons why Bush CAN outperform Drew tihs year. Toward the end of last year, I believe Bush started gettng more carries inside the twenty and in GL situations. I think that trend may continue. For Drew on the other hand, Greg Jones is back and i believe they are planning on getting him more GL carries, and I think they plan to get Toefield more involved this year. If its going to be a 4-horse system, then it is reasonable to say that Drew's numbers can drop.

 

[TheFanatic]

The people who are doubting Bush are the same people who were doubting him prior to his rookie season (Fanatic, SSOG).

I said all along that I was not sold on him as a runner and have been proven correct so far. I didn't think he would do as well as a WR and was pleasantly surprised. The kid has talent, he just can't run between the tackles as of this point. I'm guessing that would've been his major point to work on this offseason. Maybe he can learn it. Maybe he can't. But I know this, MJD has that down, can catch almost as well as Bush and seems to be more explosive as opposed to Bush's shiftiness....With what I've seen MJD is the better back and Bush has a long way to go to live up to the hype. If I see one more highlight reel of Bush on ESPN breaking off a 9 yard play with 3 amazing jukes but no mention of the 4 plays where he got stopped in the backfield or at the line of scrimmage and him only finishing with 14 rushing yards and 2.0 YPC for the game I may vomit....BTW, that's exactly what happened against the Skins but the 9 yard run was all over Sports Center

 

[TheFanatic]

When all is said and done at this point in time the only reason to think that Bush will out perform Drew in the future is "potential". Yes, you can call plays flukes, compare only certain games and revisit college stats that seem to paint a prettier picture for Bush. But bottom line is Drew was better in the only season each has played in the NFL. While some would say that that doesn't matter so much, I'm betting that if Bush out-played Drew last season and people where now on this board saying Drew was actually better inspite Bush outperforming him, the same people now pimping Bush's better "potential" would think that was insane.

Maybe Bush goes wild this year, he is amazing. But there's no reason to reasonably expext him to out perform Drew this season at this point.

Hard to say who will have the better numbers, but there ARE reasons why Bush CAN outperform Drew tihs year. Toward the end of last year, I believe Bush started gettng more carries inside the twenty and in GL situations. I think that trend may continue. For Drew on the other hand, Greg Jones is back and i believe they are planning on getting him more GL carries, and I think they plan to get Toefield more involved this year. If its going to be a 4-horse system, then it is reasonable to say that Drew's numbers can drop.

Toefeld is trying to make the team and may not. Drew was the best RB in the red zone last year in the league so why would Greg Jones steal that from him? What has Jones every done that would make this even a remotely viable argument? To even talk about these two as competition is extremely short sighted. The only person that should be discussed in terms of eating into MJD's carries is Taylor. I will agree that Bush could out perform MJD this year. Anything is possible. If Bush gets more opportunities (like if Deuce goes down) or if he just has improved his inside running game enough to keep Deuce off the field. I doubt that happens but it could. Either way, I think that MJD has the better season in 2007 and the better career as a RB.

 

[QuizGuy66]

 

[Tau837]

Serious question: Is MJD returning kicks this year?

If so, that is a reason his coaches may want to share the load with Taylor and possibly Jones.

 

[GDogg]

Serious question: Is MJD returning kicks this year?If so, that is a reason his coaches may want to share the load with Taylor and possibly Jones.

I'm pretty sure he is, and I read an interview with him two days ago where he indicated that he had asked the coaches to also let him return punts.

 

[Tau837]

Serious question: Is MJD returning kicks this year?If so, that is a reason his coaches may want to share the load with Taylor and possibly Jones.

I'm pretty sure he is, and I read an interview with him two days ago where he indicated that he had asked the coaches to also let him return punts.

That's what I thought (about kicks, didn't know about punts). Does anyone dispute that if he has kick/punt return duties the coaches will give him fewer offensive touches than if he was not returning kicks/punts? My view is that they like what they have in Taylor, and possibly Jones, enough that they think the best overall value to the team is to use some of MJD's touches on kicks/punts and give those offensive touches to Taylor/Jones. There is no way MJD sees more than 250 touches on offense if he is returning kicks/punts.

 

[GDogg]

Serious question: Is MJD returning kicks this year?If so, that is a reason his coaches may want to share the load with Taylor and possibly Jones.

I'm pretty sure he is, and I read an interview with him two days ago where he indicated that he had asked the coaches to also let him return punts.

That's what I thought (about kicks, didn't know about punts). Does anyone dispute that if he has kick/punt return duties the coaches will give him fewer offensive touches than if he was not returning kicks/punts? My view is that they like what they have in Taylor, and possibly Jones, enough that they think the best overall value to the team is to use some of MJD's touches on kicks/punts and give those offensive touches to Taylor/Jones. There is no way MJD sees more than 250 touches on offense if he is returning kicks/punts.

I disagree on them giving his touches to Jones.I'm also not sure exactly how they want to use Drew. Last season, he led the team in carries in Weeks 14-17. In Week 14, he returned the 2nd half kickoff 93 yards for a TD. In week 15, he had 1 return for 29 yards. In week 16 against the Pats, he didn't have any kickoff returns. In week 17, he had 5 returns.So, at least when he was the major ball carrier and his role had expanded, the Jags didn't seem to have any problems using him on Kick Returns. I don't know how accurate it is, but FWIW and for comparison's sake (and a guy who was oft injured last season), Laurence Maroney is listed as the starting RB, and one of the kickoff returners.

 

[Tau837]

Serious question: Is MJD returning kicks this year?If so, that is a reason his coaches may want to share the load with Taylor and possibly Jones.

I'm pretty sure he is, and I read an interview with him two days ago where he indicated that he had asked the coaches to also let him return punts.

That's what I thought (about kicks, didn't know about punts). Does anyone dispute that if he has kick/punt return duties the coaches will give him fewer offensive touches than if he was not returning kicks/punts? My view is that they like what they have in Taylor, and possibly Jones, enough that they think the best overall value to the team is to use some of MJD's touches on kicks/punts and give those offensive touches to Taylor/Jones. There is no way MJD sees more than 250 touches on offense if he is returning kicks/punts.

I disagree on them giving his touches to Jones.I'm also not sure exactly how they want to use Drew. Last season, he led the team in carries in Weeks 14-17. In Week 14, he returned the 2nd half kickoff 93 yards for a TD. In week 15, he had 1 return for 29 yards. In week 16 against the Pats, he didn't have any kickoff returns. In week 17, he had 5 returns.So, at least when he was the major ball carrier and his role had expanded, the Jags didn't seem to have any problems using him on Kick Returns. I don't know how accurate it is, but FWIW and for comparison's sake (and a guy who was oft injured last season), Laurence Maroney is listed as the starting RB, and one of the kickoff returners.

Well, keep in mind that in weeks 14-17, Taylor and Jones were hurt and thus unavailable. They didn't have the flexibility then that they will have this year with all three of those RBs. Look, I'm not saying Jones is going to have 200 touches. But I expect him to have a role and whatever touches he gets are touches MJD doesn't get. I'm not convinced all of Jones' touches will come at Taylor's expense.Incidentally, before he got hurt, Taylor averaged 18 carries a game. Not sure if a lot of the MJD supporters are expecting a substantial decline in Taylor's carries, or if they are counting on Taylor to get hurt again... I wouldn't bank on either.

 

[GDogg]

Serious question: Is MJD returning kicks this year?If so, that is a reason his coaches may want to share the load with Taylor and possibly Jones.

I'm pretty sure he is, and I read an interview with him two days ago where he indicated that he had asked the coaches to also let him return punts.

That's what I thought (about kicks, didn't know about punts). Does anyone dispute that if he has kick/punt return duties the coaches will give him fewer offensive touches than if he was not returning kicks/punts? My view is that they like what they have in Taylor, and possibly Jones, enough that they think the best overall value to the team is to use some of MJD's touches on kicks/punts and give those offensive touches to Taylor/Jones. There is no way MJD sees more than 250 touches on offense if he is returning kicks/punts.

I disagree on them giving his touches to Jones.I'm also not sure exactly how they want to use Drew. Last season, he led the team in carries in Weeks 14-17. In Week 14, he returned the 2nd half kickoff 93 yards for a TD. In week 15, he had 1 return for 29 yards. In week 16 against the Pats, he didn't have any kickoff returns. In week 17, he had 5 returns.So, at least when he was the major ball carrier and his role had expanded, the Jags didn't seem to have any problems using him on Kick Returns. I don't know how accurate it is, but FWIW and for comparison's sake (and a guy who was oft injured last season), Laurence Maroney is listed as the starting RB, and one of the kickoff returners.

Well, keep in mind that in weeks 14-17, Taylor and Jones were hurt and thus unavailable. They didn't have the flexibility then that they will have this year with all three of those RBs. Look, I'm not saying Jones is going to have 200 touches. But I expect him to have a role and whatever touches he gets are touches MJD doesn't get. I'm not convinced all of Jones' touches will come at Taylor's expense.Incidentally, before he got hurt, Taylor averaged 18 carries a game. Not sure if a lot of the MJD supporters are expecting a substantial decline in Taylor's carries, or if they are counting on Taylor to get hurt again... I wouldn't bank on either.

I simply don't think Greg Jones is all that great. I expect him to get touches, but I don't think they come at the expense, necessarily, of Taylor or Drew. I think they'll come at the expense of Pearman and Toefield. And, that's assuming the guy stays healthy, which he unfortunately has struggled to do.I definitely expect Taylor's carries to decline. Maurice Drew is a better all-around RB than Taylor. However, Taylor is very good, and was rather productive last year. That being said, he's old and fragile and if they want to have him playing at the end of the year, I think they limit his carries to help ensure that. And, I'm not banking on Taylor getting hurt, but it won't come as a surprise. In his 9-year career, Taylor has played 16 games twice. Four times he's missed 5 games or more. And, that was before he was running with a 31 year old body (he'll be 32 in January) that has taken significant punishment in his career. Last year, he played in 15, but was injured and missed significant time in two other games.

 

[TheFanatic]

And, I'm not banking on Taylor getting hurt, but it won't come as a surprise. In his 9-year career, Taylor has played 16 games twice. Four times he's missed 5 games or more. And, that was before he was running with a 31 year old body (he'll be 32 in January) that has taken significant punishment in his career. Last year, he played in 15, but was injured and missed significant time in two other games.

Very prudent line of thinking here. I would agree with this. That being said, if Taylor misses any significant time I doubt he ever sees the field again in a major role. MJD will keep Taylor off the field if given the chance. Can we say the same thing about Bush? I don't think so. The Saints will need someone who can get tough yards up the middle. So even if Deuce were to go down, I would say that Bush would split time with somebody who ran those tough yards in the middle. MJD can do all of that on his own.

 

[EBF]

And, I'm not banking on Taylor getting hurt, but it won't come as a surprise. In his 9-year career, Taylor has played 16 games twice. Four times he's missed 5 games or more. And, that was before he was running with a 31 year old body (he'll be 32 in January) that has taken significant punishment in his career. Last year, he played in 15, but was injured and missed significant time in two other games.

Very prudent line of thinking here. I would agree with this. That being said, if Taylor misses any significant time I doubt he ever sees the field again in a major role. MJD will keep Taylor off the field if given the chance. Can we say the same thing about Bush? I don't think so. The Saints will need someone who can get tough yards up the middle. So even if Deuce were to go down, I would say that Bush would split time with somebody who ran those tough yards in the middle. MJD can do all of that on his own.

Do you have any actual statistics that suggest Bush is a bad short-yardage/inside runner? I'm not denying that they exist, but it would be nice to see evidence.At any rate, I think it's a mistake to assume that he can't ever be a full-time guy. Brian Westbrook and Tiki Barber seem like two of the best comparisons for Bush given their style of play and dimensions. Per NFL.com: Tiki Barber - 5'10" 205Brian Westbrook - 5'10" 203Reggie Bush - 6'0" 203Those guys started their careers as RBBC members and eventually grew into 300+ touch backs. I don't think there's any valid reason to assume that Bush is incapable of handling a similar workload.

 

[Blackjacks]

WOW, this arguement again, isn't this getting alittle old by now. You say USC opened up hallways for the USC rb's to run through but I would argue Bush went to the outside and outran people for most of his big runs. I agree the "HALLWAYS" helped Lendale run off tackle but if you watched Reggie alot in college, like I did, you would know that his big runs were to the outside. You can definetly say he doesn't run good between the tackles but I would argue why do it if you can run GREAT around the corner. The arguement is all in the eyes of the beholders.

Doing that in college and doing it in the pros are two different things. If you notice that Bush going around the outside didn't yield him any long runs last season because the pro linebackers he faced didn't allow it to happen. Same reason nobody runs the option in the NFL. The Linebackers are too fast. The argument is also in the stat line and the stat line states that Bush can't break the long run around the outside and can't run between the tackles. The guy is an amazing talent, but I think he needs to put on a number in the 80's and not try to play RB. I'm sure he will have some long runs this year as he learns the league better and I'm sure he will learn to do more with a small hole in the line, but in the grand scheme of things MJD is the more polished/all around RB. He can hit the hole with authority, shake off tackles and catch the ball really well also...

I can't sit here and say Reggie is more talented or vice versa, you've seen one year of both guys in the pros. The only reason I can believe Bush is more talented is pro scouts who get paid for a living selected Bush and then selected Jones Drew 58 picks later. Every once in awhile great surprises happen and Jones Drew was a great surprise but I would rather take the more skilled player in the eyes of experts than the surprise player. Just my 2 cents.

This comment is just ridiculous. Why? I'll just list a few names and you: Tom Brady, Kurt Warner, Curtis Martin, Terrell Davis, Jerry Rice, Joe Montana, London Fletcher....All are guys that vastly outperformed their draft position (or weren't drafted at all ala London Fletcher). Those same professional scouts missed the boat on all those guys. And then you have the flip side of that. Ryan Leaf? 2nd overall? Lawrence Phillips 6th overall? How about Eddie Kennison being selected a pick ahead of Marvin Harrison? How about Trung Candidate in the 1st round? I could go on and on. How about other sports? Two players were picked ahead of Michael Jordan!!!

So, according to this line of reasoning you would like all the QB's selected ahead of Tom Brady that year? Or any of the RB's selected ahead of Curtis Martin. Eddie Kennison surely must be better than Marvin Harrison....

I think I said sometimes you have a surprise (I put it in bold letters this time so you could see it). I guarantee you I can list more players who were drafted high that succeded than players who were drafted late. You have a handful to go off of, the exceptions to the rules. I have the Norm. What I'm stating is I'll go with the Norm.

 

[Blackjacks]

The people who are doubting Bush are the same people who were doubting him prior to his rookie season (Fanatic, SSOG).

I said all along that I was not sold on him as a runner and have been proven correct so far. I didn't think he would do as well as a WR and was pleasantly surprised. The kid has talent, he just can't run between the tackles as of this point. I'm guessing that would've been his major point to work on this offseason. Maybe he can learn it. Maybe he can't. But I know this, MJD has that down, can catch almost as well as Bush and seems to be more explosive as opposed to Bush's shiftiness....With what I've seen MJD is the better back and Bush has a long way to go to live up to the hype.

If I see one more highlight reel of Bush on ESPN breaking off a 9 yard play with 3 amazing jukes but no mention of the 4 plays where he got stopped in the backfield or at the line of scrimmage and him only finishing with 14 rushing yards and 2.0 YPC for the game I may vomit....BTW, that's exactly what happened against the Skins but the 9 yard run was all over Sports Center

last 10 games (including playoffs) he avg. over 4.7 yards per carry, isn't that alittle impressive? I think it took Reggie alittle time to get use to the NFL speed.

 

[switz]

And, I'm not banking on Taylor getting hurt, but it won't come as a surprise. In his 9-year career, Taylor has played 16 games twice. Four times he's missed 5 games or more. And, that was before he was running with a 31 year old body (he'll be 32 in January) that has taken significant punishment in his career. Last year, he played in 15, but was injured and missed significant time in two other games.

Very prudent line of thinking here. I would agree with this. That being said, if Taylor misses any significant time I doubt he ever sees the field again in a major role. MJD will keep Taylor off the field if given the chance. Can we say the same thing about Bush? I don't think so. The Saints will need someone who can get tough yards up the middle. So even if Deuce were to go down, I would say that Bush would split time with somebody who ran those tough yards in the middle. MJD can do all of that on his own.

Do you have any actual statistics that suggest Bush is a bad short-yardage/inside runner? I'm not denying that they exist, but it would be nice to see evidence.At any rate, I think it's a mistake to assume that he can't ever be a full-time guy. Brian Westbrook and Tiki Barber seem like two of the best comparisons for Bush given their style of play and dimensions. Per NFL.com: Tiki Barber - 5'10" 205Brian Westbrook - 5'10" 203Reggie Bush - 6'0" 203Those guys started their careers as RBBC members and eventually grew into 300+ touch backs. I don't think there's any valid reason to assume that Bush is incapable of handling a similar workload.

ATT	YDS	AVG	LNG	TD	REC	YDS	AVG	LNG	TD	FUM	LSTRight Side	29	82	2.8	9	0	27	192	7.1	25	1	0	0Left Side	46	162	3.5	18	2	14	98	7.0	23	0	1	1Middle		20	51	2.6	13	0	11	77	7.0	14	0	0	0Left Sideline	31	145	4.7	17	4	20	169	8.5	61	1	0	0Right Sideline	29	125	4.3	18	0	16	206	12.9	74	0	1	1

While his overall unmbers aren't great running between the tackles, he has broken some long runs. I would never say he was great between the tackles alst year, but I do think there is reason for optimism.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

I knew I should never have opened this thread as I always get sucked into this conversation.

It is true that New Orleans had an electric offense last year, but their run blocking left quite a bit to be desired. There were a lot of nationally televised Saints games last year so I saw quite a few of them, and I live in Central Florida so I got nearly every Jags game on TV. As someone who saw a lot of both I can say with 100% confidence that comparing the run blocking units here is not even doable. New Orleans’ run blocking unit could be called mediocre if I were being generous about it. Jacksonville’s was the most underrated group of guys in the league last year. Part of it had to do with the schedule, but they certainly opened up plenty of those car sized holes Reggie saw at USC.

This can easily be seen by an aging Fred Taylor putting up his career best ypc last year in his 30’s while heavily outperforming Deuce (who many consider to be at least as good as Taylor) in that regard in spite of Deuce having the advantage of team’s focusing on Bush early in the season (I remember one play in particular in which Bush came around on a reverse but the handoff went to Deuce – not all that deceptively either – yet a LB literally brushed shoulders with Deuce as he ran by him to tackle and empty handed Reggie Bush in the backfield).

I cannot remember seeing defenses scheme against one player as much as Reggie last year. Dallas's game plan was ridiculous and part of the reason NO just destroyed the Boys. Drew was not the focus of defensive game plans. He will be this year.

Are you saying that Byron Leftwich, David Garrard, Fred Taylor, Reggie Williams, Matt Jones, Ernest Wilford and George Wrightster took more of the defense's focus than Drew Brees, Deuce McAllister, Marques Colston, Joe Horn, Devery Henderson and Terrence Copper? Seriously? I'm not sure how it's even debatable that Bush was more central to the Saints offense than Jones-Drew to the Jaguars offense. Bush was surrounded by a Pro Bowl QB, rookie of the year candidate WR, former Pro Bowl RB and former Pro Bowl WR. MJD was surrounded by a former Pro Bowl RB and a pile of nothing.

Chase, I often enjoy your posts but I think you're being short-sighted here. For starters, as was mentioned above, none of these guys were on anyone’s radar early in the season. Even when teams started to notice them more the focus was still on Bush early on and this was wildly evident. To throw out a bunch of names and act like the defenses focus wasn't even a question in favor of MJD's case beffudles me, because the opposite of this was abundantly apparent when watching the game. As someone else mentioned, it was like nothing most of us have ever seen before with that much attention focused on one guy. I would say that anyone that understands football could easily see this, but it’s beyond that really as it was so evident that even casual fans could see it. My girlfriend, who basically only watches the NFL when forced, made mention of it several times without any prompting. You can toss out as many names as you want, but that’s no substitute for watching what’s actually happening, and what was actually happening was undeniable.As the season progressed teams learned that the Saints had too many weapons to put that much focus on one guy and Bush’s numbers ballooned.

I have no idea who will end up having the better career, but MJD does have one distinct advantage and that is that Fred Taylor should be out of Jacksonville well before Deuce is out of New Orleans as Taylor appears to be on his last legs.

And FWIW, the Jags are one of my favorite teams, I could care less about the Saints, I hate USC, and am actually quite fond of UCLA (mainly because they got my Gators into the NC game this year and also gave us a couple easy Final Four wins in basketball ).

 

[Blackjacks]

I knew I should never have opened this thread as I always get sucked into this conversation.

It is true that New Orleans had an electric offense last year, but their run blocking left quite a bit to be desired. There were a lot of nationally televised Saints games last year so I saw quite a few of them, and I live in Central Florida so I got nearly every Jags game on TV. As someone who saw a lot of both I can say with 100% confidence that comparing the run blocking units here is not even doable. New Orleans’ run blocking unit could be called mediocre if I were being generous about it. Jacksonville’s was the most underrated group of guys in the league last year. Part of it had to do with the schedule, but they certainly opened up plenty of those car sized holes Reggie saw at USC.

This can easily be seen by an aging Fred Taylor putting up his career best ypc last year in his 30’s while heavily outperforming Deuce (who many consider to be at least as good as Taylor) in that regard in spite of Deuce having the advantage of team’s focusing on Bush early in the season (I remember one play in particular in which Bush came around on a reverse but the handoff went to Deuce – not all that deceptively either – yet a LB literally brushed shoulders with Deuce as he ran by him to tackle and empty handed Reggie Bush in the backfield).

I cannot remember seeing defenses scheme against one player as much as Reggie last year. Dallas's game plan was ridiculous and part of the reason NO just destroyed the Boys. Drew was not the focus of defensive game plans. He will be this year.

Are you saying that Byron Leftwich, David Garrard, Fred Taylor, Reggie Williams, Matt Jones, Ernest Wilford and George Wrightster took more of the defense's focus than Drew Brees, Deuce McAllister, Marques Colston, Joe Horn, Devery Henderson and Terrence Copper? Seriously? I'm not sure how it's even debatable that Bush was more central to the Saints offense than Jones-Drew to the Jaguars offense. Bush was surrounded by a Pro Bowl QB, rookie of the year candidate WR, former Pro Bowl RB and former Pro Bowl WR. MJD was surrounded by a former Pro Bowl RB and a pile of nothing.

Chase, I often enjoy your posts but I think you're being short-sighted here. For starters, as was mentioned above, none of these guys were on anyone’s radar early in the season. Even when teams started to notice them more the focus was still on Bush early on and this was wildly evident. To throw out a bunch of names and act like the defenses focus wasn't even a question in favor of MJD's case beffudles me, because the opposite of this was abundantly apparent when watching the game. As someone else mentioned, it was like nothing most of us have ever seen before with that much attention focused on one guy. I would say that anyone that understands football could easily see this, but it’s beyond that really as it was so evident that even casual fans could see it. My girlfriend, who basically only watches the NFL when forced, made mention of it several times without any prompting. You can toss out as many names as you want, but that’s no substitute for watching what’s actually happening, and what was actually happening was undeniable.As the season progressed teams learned that the Saints had too many weapons to put that much focus on one guy and Bush’s numbers ballooned.

I have no idea who will end up having the better career, but MJD does have one distinct advantage and that is that Fred Taylor should be out of Jacksonville well before Deuce is out of New Orleans as Taylor appears to be on his last legs.

And FWIW, the Jags are one of my favorite teams, I could care less about the Saints, I hate USC, and am actually quite fond of UCLA (mainly because they got my Gators into the NC game this year and also gave us a couple easy Final Four wins in basketball ).

 

[Wadsworth]

Serious question: Is MJD returning kicks this year?

If so, that is a reason his coaches may want to share the load with Taylor and possibly Jones.

I'm pretty sure he is, and I read an interview with him two days ago where he indicated that he had asked the coaches to also let him return punts.

That's what I thought (about kicks, didn't know about punts). Does anyone dispute that if he has kick/punt return duties the coaches will give him fewer offensive touches than if he was not returning kicks/punts? My view is that they like what they have in Taylor, and possibly Jones, enough that they think the best overall value to the team is to use some of MJD's touches on kicks/punts and give those offensive touches to Taylor/Jones. There is no way MJD sees more than 250 touches on offense if he is returning kicks/punts.

I agree with this statement. One reason Jacksonville had serious special teams covage issues last season was that with the many injuries on defense, 2nd stringers that were playing special teams became starters and Jack Del Rio pulled them off special teams. If Drew is returning kicks and punts, it will be a clear sign that's he's not going to seriously eating into Fred Taylor's carries.

 

[Bri]

Chase,

interesting research.

One thing that should probably be mentioned is neither was a true starting RB in the classic sense in 2006.

It's probably the norm for a RB to do better when given the lion's share of the carries. IIRC There's a handful of 3rd down backs that haven't done esp well when given this opportunity but all in all, don't ya think that would skew your numbers a bit?

****

The previous 10-15 years was lucky to have a few backs get 1000 yards year in year out-Eddie, Emmitt, Curtis, Barry, and Corey. Outside of those guys there weren't many in NFL history to get 8-1000 yard seasons in a row (or somesuch, may be off on the #s a smidge). Few will do this IMO. Portis for example, ended his streak last year. Neither Bush nor MJD started with a K. My Q to you, maybe a future blog post or board post or something, is (numbers wise/predictions) does it appear that a HOF RB or near HOF level RB have to get 1000 yards his rookie year and have a streak of consecutive seasons with 1000 yards?

Eddie and Corey may not be HOFers but they're not too far off #s wise and were certainly thought of as franchise backs and each one of the best backs in their team's history. Emmitt, Curtis, and Barry will all probably make the HOF.

It would probably be a fair assumption to say many think LT2 is on his way to the HOF and he has six 1000 yard seasons in a row.

Dickerson had 5 1000 yard seasons, injury, 2 more.

Earl Campbell openned with 4 1000 yard seasons.

Sweetness did not open with a K but had 6 1000 yard seasons then injury, then 4 more.

I think you'll find that most HOF RBs start their career with a K.

What's that mean here?

Addai did get 1000 yards(1081)

eh well just a suggestion

 

[GDogg]

Serious question: Is MJD returning kicks this year?

If so, that is a reason his coaches may want to share the load with Taylor and possibly Jones.

I'm pretty sure he is, and I read an interview with him two days ago where he indicated that he had asked the coaches to also let him return punts.

That's what I thought (about kicks, didn't know about punts). Does anyone dispute that if he has kick/punt return duties the coaches will give him fewer offensive touches than if he was not returning kicks/punts? My view is that they like what they have in Taylor, and possibly Jones, enough that they think the best overall value to the team is to use some of MJD's touches on kicks/punts and give those offensive touches to Taylor/Jones. There is no way MJD sees more than 250 touches on offense if he is returning kicks/punts.

I agree with this statement. One reason Jacksonville had serious special teams covage issues last season was that with the many injuries on defense, 2nd stringers that were playing special teams became starters and Jack Del Rio pulled them off special teams. If Drew is returning kicks and punts, it will be a clear sign that's he's not going to seriously eating into Fred Taylor's carries.

Then, why didn't Jack Del Rio pull Maurice Drew off special teams when he became the starter when Fred Taylor got hurt?