Red Apples
Footballguy
did it suck when you won games like that?it seems like going decimal usually means somebody lost one week by a point and cried.
real men play by wholes.
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Full points vs. decimal points? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter towsonnc
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real men play by wholes.
Red Apples
Footballguy
real men dont use emoticons.Of course it didn't suck to win that way, but since I hate to lose more than I love to win, the losses are what I remember the most.Oh and your real men statement deserves a
zing.
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Kai's Hero
Footballguy
what he said!
Whole is the way to go.
It's more goal oriented, like the game itself. You know, touchdowns, first downs, field goals. Players score points when they reach a goal, in fantasy it is most likely ten yard increments.
I enjoy watching a game, late 4th quarter, knowing my crappy WR is sitting at 2 for 28, hoping he gets another catch. It's more exciting than sitting there comfortable with my 2.8 or whatever. More dramatic.
Another point is that decimal once again rewards the RB. Not much, but a bit nonetheless. Way more 2 for 8 receiving efforts from a RB than 1 for 5 WR rush attempts. Plus, all you decimal guys clamoring for accuarcy, do you bother to include negative scoring? Combined yardage works fine, but I've seen leagues that do not detract for the 1 for -4 catch a RB had. To say nothing of fumbles, lost or otherwise.
It's more goal oriented, like the game itself. You know, touchdowns, first downs, field goals. Players score points when they reach a goal, in fantasy it is most likely ten yard increments.
I enjoy watching a game, late 4th quarter, knowing my crappy WR is sitting at 2 for 28, hoping he gets another catch. It's more exciting than sitting there comfortable with my 2.8 or whatever. More dramatic.
Another point is that decimal once again rewards the RB. Not much, but a bit nonetheless. Way more 2 for 8 receiving efforts from a RB than 1 for 5 WR rush attempts. Plus, all you decimal guys clamoring for accuarcy, do you bother to include negative scoring? Combined yardage works fine, but I've seen leagues that do not detract for the 1 for -4 catch a RB had. To say nothing of fumbles, lost or otherwise.
Tackling Dummies
Footballguy
Decimal.
If you really want to get at it, play every-team-every-week instead of HTH.
If you really want to get at it, play every-team-every-week instead of HTH.
GregR_2
Footballguy
I don't think you need to "play all teams every week" to reflect the best teams. I think double or even triple-headers cover the majority of the game between all-play and single games.And I am an advocate of double-headers (my newest leagues use double-headers in non-division weeks and triple-headers against all division teams in division weeks which also are on non-bye weeks).However, the single-game format is an attempt to emulate the league's structure, which as you point out unfortunately results in less-than-optimal results when it comes to showing how teams actually did. Although it does share that fault with the NFL's setup. The answer someone goes with is going to fall on which is more important to them, "fairness" of fantasy results, or emulating the NFL.Non-decimal scoring on the other hand is a by-product of the lack of technology available in past decades to calculate results. It also does not produce the best expression of how a team did, but it differs from your change of topic in that it does not work how the NFL does. The technology is now there which removes the only true reason to go with non-decimal scoring.As has been said before, the topic pretty much always comes back to that the only real reason to not use decimal scoring is a resistance to change.
GregR_2
Footballguy
Did the Cowboys not get credit for Emmitt's half yards? I don't imagine you're claiming they moved the ball back to the last closest yard marker.So then it comes down to the NFL-reported stats don't include decimal yards. Which doesn't seem to have much to do with our discussion. Both decimal and non-decimal fantasy scoring use the same stats as input. If there is a problem with the reported stats for rounding, the problem is with the stats and neither fantasy scoring system can do anything about it.
Unless you're advocating that the existence of inaccuracy in the reported stats means we should use a scoring system that also introduces an inaccuracy?
pinequick
Footballguy
*This* is the logical argument for which the original poster asked. In our real-NFL hypothetical, no player gets credit for every "yard" (or portion thereof) that he ran/received/threw in a given game. Portions get rounded. So be it. If the same happens in my fantasy league, so be it--thems are the breaks. We all play under the same rules.The main reason I hear for recommending decimal scoring is that it helps avoid ties. That's all well and good, but ties just don't bother me that much. They are part of the NFL game, so I'm okay with dealing with them in my fantasy league. We've had 4 ties in 7 seasons in our dynasty league, so the "threat" of a tie hasn't been that big of an issue for us.
Again, to each his own, but the posts of "there is no logical reason to not use decimal scoring" are well off the mark.
GregR_2
Footballguy
The team gets credit for every portion of every yard. The player gets credit for every yard to the level of accuracy which the league feels it is worth measuring.How is that similar to using a 10 yard increment for scoring when the information is supplied in a 1 yard increment?
Then you're not reading the right posts. Please see the posts that have illustrated how a team with a lesser performance can BEAT a team with a better performance. Why? Because non-decimal scoring you get rewarded for having the most groupings of 10 yards. Decimal scoring you get rewarded for having the most yards.Which seems a better measure of team performance to you? The fact that there are fewer ties is a side-effect that individuals may consider a bonus, but it's far from the main reason to do it.
pinequick
Footballguy
Your team analogy is misguided here--fantasy "teams" are an amalgamation of individual NFL players. That NFL teams are credited with the total yards gained is sort of beside the point (unless your fantasy league tracks NFL *team* stats as well).That NFL *players* "get credit for every yard to the level of accuracy which the league feels it is worth measuring" is an excellent point. They simply don't get credit for all their yards. Is that fair?
It is what it is. That my fantasy league operates in the same manner doesn't bother me at all.I understand the sentiment of "if only the rules had been another way, then I would have won" arguments--but I do not agree with them. From the NFL perspective, teams get out-performed all the time in the NFL--and still they win.But in fantasy football, I fundamentally disagree with the sentiment that one team "outperformed" another and lost. It doesn't work that way--the rules define the performance that counts, and those that don't. When everyone operates under the same rules, that is the definition of fair play.
Then you're not reading the right posts. Please see the posts that have illustrated how a team with a lesser performance can BEAT a team with a better performance. Why? Because non-decimal scoring you get rewarded for having the most groupings of 10 yards. Decimal scoring you get rewarded for having the most yards.
Which seems a better measure of team performance to you? The fact that there are fewer ties is a side-effect that individuals may consider a bonus, but it's far from the main reason to do it.
The decimal argument seems to rest on "precision is king." We could, I suppose, attempt to review game film for each player for each game for each week in an attempt to credit them for each micrometer gained. That, of course, seems silly.
Call me a sucker for controversy. But there are inherent inaccuracies in the real NFL. That some of them are replicated in my fantasy league is realistic, in my mind. I prefer it that way.
Red Apples
Footballguy
decimal points is for cry babies.
The Jerk
Footballguy
I disagree with you that resistance to change is the only reason not to use decimal scoring. I think it comes down to preference and another point you made concerning "fairness" vs. emulating the NFL.More importantly, however, is the fact that posters in this thread still don't seem to notice the inconsistency between strongly advocating decimal scoring and simulateously leaving full-league head-to-head to the discretion of the participants.
If it's all about determining the better (or best) team each week, then decimal scoring must be paired with full-league head-to-head scheduling.
It seems to be that posters apply different standards to these two issues. While that's OK by me, it seems inconsistent, which is why I don't understand how the fervor for the former gets linked with the apathy for the latter.
EDITED to add:
You might be surprised to know that I advocated the change to decimal scoring in one of my leagues. I just happen to believe that scoring methods, schedule, postseason structure, redraft or keeper rules all form the flavor of the league. So except for anything ridiculous or unfair, it's all up to the members of the league. My biggest intrigue is the hard line taken by the decimal proponents in this thread.
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joffer
Footballguy
there's no inconsistency if the argument being made is simply that decimal scoring is a more accurate representation of a player's performance.and i really don't get the "if other things are broke, then it's ok for THIS (scoring inaccuracies) to be broke" argument. an improvement is an improvement.
The Jerk
Footballguy
I don't see decimal scoring as an inherent improvement to a league. It simply adds precision to each player's performance. To leagues that value precision above all else, then it is clearly an improvement. Otherwise, all decimal vs. whole scoring will do is potentially change the outcome of roughly one to six games during an entire season.Even with decimal scoring, decisions must be made to penalize (or not) negative yardage. Each league also must determine how to set the relative value of RBs vs. WRs vs. QBs vs. TEs. Each league must determine how defense is rewarded. These factors will probably be more of a factor in figuring the champion. And we're not even getting into the draft and free agency, keepers, etc.
I'm simply trying to show that each league chooses a set of criteria to determine its champion. I see decimal vs. whole scoring as another choice. Change any of the other factors and you also might change the champion.
My point concerning full head-to-head schedules each week is that some leagues seek to eliminate scheduling as a factor in determining a champion. Others do not. I see these as fairly similar in their impact on crowning a champ, even if one involves performance measurement and the other involves league structure. To me, it's all about defining the parameters of the competition.
To me, whole points better simulate the real NFL. Perhaps it's the symmetry between 10 yards = 1 point and 10 yards = a first down. Face it, whether it's 4th and 10 or 4th and 3, it's still a punt. You don't get 4 or 5 points for a field goal drive that ends on the 3 vs. the 33. If the kick is good, it's 3 points either way. I could see logic in rewarding teams that came closer to scoring a TD, but it doesn't happen in the NFL.
I realize that this reasoning drives some of you crazy; all I can say is that it fits my idea of how a fantasy league can model the NFL. If you don't like it, fine. It's not inherently inferior, just less precise in its measurement of individual player stats.
I like both of my longest-running leagues just about the same. One uses decimal scoring; the other does not.
Good for you if you believe your decimal scoring league is superior to any that uses whole scoring. I don't share your belief, but more power to you if it makes you feel better.
Red Apples
Footballguy
it was said earlier in here but if nfl palyers were as big as crybabies as fantasy players the nfl wouldn't go by yards it go by inches.
The Jerk
Footballguy
Technically correct, but you're still missing the point here.From dictionary.com:
Accuracy
<mathematics> How close to the real value a measurement is.
Precision
<mathematics> The number of decimal places to which a number is computed.
In this mathematical context, whole number scoring by definition means that measurements of player performance are rounded down to the nearest whole number. They are not less accurate, merely less precise. An accurate measurement means that the metric was correctly applied. To be inaccurate would require incorrect calculation of the player's performance by man or machine.
Inaccurate measurements result from a faulty application of the metric. That's not the case here. One metric simply allows for greater precision. Within each metric, both measurements are accurate. It's clear you don't like the rounding down. Mathematically, you believe that the fraction is significant. I and others like pinequick, etc. do not.
So it is correct to say that decimal scoring produces more precise measurements (i.e., 24.3 poins instead of 24). However, they are not more accurate. If the same website or spreadsheet is used to calculate the values, there will be no inaccuracies.
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The Jerk
Footballguy
Well said. As I said in my longer reply, decimal scoring proponents believe the fractional part is significant (i.e., more accurately measures the on-field performance) while whole scoring proponents do not.Joffer, you responded to only one part of my post. I'm curious about your thoughts concerning FF modeling of the NFL in terms of schedule and scoring. First, is that important to you? Second, what is your impression of my application of first downs and field goals (i.e., there is no partial credit for getting close to a first down or close to a touchdown before kicking the field goal)?
The Jerk
Footballguy
Now to further blow your mind...One of my leagues features 1 pt per 20 yards rushing/receiving (whole scoring) with bonuses for longer TDs.
This league has a lot different flavor than a decimally scored 0.1 pt per yard with 6 point TDs regardless of length. But this is how these owners like it. I don't like everything about it, but I can appreciate it in the context of what really matters is scoring plays, especially longer TDs. I think we can all agree that long TDs are momentum changers and game deciders; look no further than Super Bowl XL. This league captures that aspect more than virtually any other I've seen. You don't have to like it, you can argue about accuracy and precision and anything else you like, but it is a fun and unique league to play in, at least to the 12 teams who are involved. Frankly, that's what matters most.
My other league uses decimal scoring and has no bonuses of any type, and that's challenging and interesting in a different way. But by no means do I consider it "better" or "superior" to the more eccentric league mentioned above.
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Chadstroma
Footballguy
I think those who hate it for no reason are prob the same ones that have lost by .01 points before... which in fact..... would be me. It was one stinking single passing yard! Can you imagine.... 1 passing yard the smallest point allowed in our system was the deciding factor. I cried.
For days... I cried.
But I could never do any point system other than decimals. It just makes every single decision you make that much more important to get right.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
i would argue that it is nearly impossible to outplay a team in the NFL and lose. The only way i see it happening is if the refs make a horribly bad obvious call. Like the Vinny T "touchdown". Any person that argues that was a TD is either blind or just being stubborn.
Even if a team outgains a team 352 to 43 yards on offenses and still loses, they were outplayed. They scored fewer points.
Fantasy sports are not "real" if people want a true measure of a players performance they will use decimal scoring. If they want to use non decimal for simplicity sake or they like having an X factor, that is their own choice. Some leagues do not subtract points for INTs or fumbles. Is that a TRUE measure?
One of my leagues uses decimals, one of my leagues doesnt. We had our championship game decided by tie breaker in one league. It came down to the 3rd tiebreaker, which was a designated overtime player. I remember watching monday night football the last week wanting to know if Brady was going to get to 19 points to win the freaking 3rd tiebreaker, which was pretty exciting actually.
I can also remember a game week 10 when mcnabb threw 3 incomplete passes at the very end of the game in my other league knowing that if he connected on any of them it would be enough to erase my .12 point lead. Then seeing him get pulled immediately after that series and breathing a huge sigh of relief.
Even if a team outgains a team 352 to 43 yards on offenses and still loses, they were outplayed. They scored fewer points.
Fantasy sports are not "real" if people want a true measure of a players performance they will use decimal scoring. If they want to use non decimal for simplicity sake or they like having an X factor, that is their own choice. Some leagues do not subtract points for INTs or fumbles. Is that a TRUE measure?
One of my leagues uses decimals, one of my leagues doesnt. We had our championship game decided by tie breaker in one league. It came down to the 3rd tiebreaker, which was a designated overtime player. I remember watching monday night football the last week wanting to know if Brady was going to get to 19 points to win the freaking 3rd tiebreaker, which was pretty exciting actually.
I can also remember a game week 10 when mcnabb threw 3 incomplete passes at the very end of the game in my other league knowing that if he connected on any of them it would be enough to erase my .12 point lead. Then seeing him get pulled immediately after that series and breathing a huge sigh of relief.
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