Germany And France And The U.K. Better Arm Themselves If They Want Democracy Ascending. So Ought Canada. (1 Viewer)

[ekbeats]

Thanks, ekbeats. And the same in return. And I don't say that lightly. When it comes to this stuff, though? World affairs and understanding European and Asian cultures and history? I'm way behind the eight ball. I sort of live in a world of ideas and observation. I love the Enlightenment and think it holds the answers to so many political problems. But knowing Continental Europe and Asia histories are sort of beyond my ken, and those are cultures not rooted in Enlightenment tradition. 

There are just other forces, intellectual histories, and cultural dialectics that I do not know. This is why we defer to experts at times.

In keeping with the thread, I do know that when I rebut Gekko I stand on firm ground because of my understanding of how democracies and autocracies work. And theoretical and practical governance, too. Those proclamations of war with China upthread are mistaken, if you ask me. We may very well one day be at war with them. But launching a preemptive war sounds like a disaster. 

And I'm skeptical that we're that similar with Russia. As you point out, our dispositions are very different. I think the philosophies and dialectical operations that informs those dispositions are wildly different. So I'm skeptical and hard to win over as far as considering Russia an ally or a balancing pivot against China, so to speak. I don't think Trump was that Nixonian in his view of Russia, and I'm not sure any President has been on solid footing as far as understanding Russia since Reagan and Bush. 

And this is the beauty of intellectual discourse,, right?  I freely admit I don’t know what the right answer is.  I disclosed my personal bias - one that is based on real world experience that had a profound effect on me as a young adult..  I should probably defer to the data,  but my political predilection is always to trust my real world experiences,  I can’t operate otherwise.  

 

[rockaction]

I should probably defer to the data,  but my political predilection is always to trust my real world experiences,  I can’t operate otherwise.

I think you hit on what I was getting at. Other cultures don't go by real world experiences, they go by theory and their conception of what the good is. Our good is "the pursuit of happiness" and we see that observationally. Other cultures come from a more theoretical framework and apply their conception of the good to what is. They enact normative pressure on themselves to attain the good in theory. Often, that winds up in disaster. The Twentieth Century showed us that, IMO. 

And that's why I defer to experts when it comes to matters of theory and cultural history and dialectic, I guess. Because even to practice observation and recommendation is a prejudice of the Western Enlightenment's emphasis on empiricism and scientific methods, which a lot of countries never adopted, or never aspired to. Continental philosophy focuses so much on theory, as Asiatic cultures emphasize the good and theoretical, too. Theirs is a function of historical dialectic, I think, with competing theories and thesis/antithesis/synthesis playing a large role in organizing society rather than observation and adjustment, like we do. 

And thus it is, I guess. 

 

[ekbeats]

I think you hit on what I was getting at. Other cultures don't go by real world experiences, they go by theory and their conception of what the good is. Our good is "the pursuit of happiness" and we see that observationally. Other cultures come from a more theoretical framework and apply their conception of the good to what is. They enact normative pressure on themselves to attain the good in theory. Often, that winds up in disaster. The Twentieth Century showed us that, IMO. 

And that's why I defer to experts when it comes to matters of theory and cultural history and dialectic, I guess. Because even to practice observation and recommendation is a prejudice of the Western Enlightenment's emphasis on empiricism and scientific methods, which a lot of countries never adopted, or never aspired to. Continental philosophy focuses so much on theory, as Asiatic cultures emphasize the good and theoretical, too. Theirs is a function of historical dialectic, I think, with competing theories and thesis/antithesis/synthesis playing a large role in organizing society rather than observation and adjustment, like we do. 

And thus it is, I guess. 

Can't argue with any of that.  Guilty as charged.  I see the world first and foremost through my own experiences.  Always have.  But I still believe that China is our biggest threat, now and in the future.  And it would seem to make good geopolitical sense to align ourselves with Russia.  We can do that and still remain committed to our European allies.  And no I don't think that Ukraine falls within that sphere of allies.

 

[rockaction]

Can't argue with any of that.  Guilty as charged.  I see the world first and foremost through my own experiences.  Always have.  But I still believe that China is our biggest threat, now and in the future.  And it would seem to make good geopolitical sense to align ourselves with Russia.  We can do that and still remain committed to our European allies.  And no I don't think that Ukraine falls within that sphere of allies.

Yeah, I'm just being theoretical now. I'm not downplaying your experiences at all or arguing about Russia and China. I'm just saying that those cultures, writ large, don't value experience as much as theory sometimes. Or they use experience and their notion of the good to construct a more normative framework of being than we do. Sometimes that leads to disaster. When humanity falls outside of the prevailing theory of what is good, worlds can collide. That's a more general point than me saying your experiences with Russia are discounted because they are experiences. 

That would be sort of contra to what I always argue, which is for empiricism and observation (through experience we will see the light). 

 

[rockaction]

I agree that such countries are threats.  I'm just not sure what the realistic options are.  We're not going to war with China or Russia.  Sanctions aren't terribly effective.  Cyber warfare?

No. I think that democracies ought to invest and give themselves the tools to be ready for attacks on systems and places. Europe needs to build its own defenses up. They cannot rely on us forever. We are stretched. 

This isn't an "America First" chauvinism; it's asking democracies to fund the defense of their own system of government. 

 

[ekbeats]

Lol. Notice our pool. Notice there is no iPad in it. 

As for me, I'm trying to be better. I failed the other night. I've apologized and am hopeful to move on. 

Same here.  I’ve been an all-out ##### at times in this forum.  All I can do is try to be better going forward.  Hopefully the folks in here give me a second chance.

 

[Sabertooth]

I think you hit on what I was getting at. Other cultures don't go by real world experiences, they go by theory and their conception of what the good is. Our good is "the pursuit of happiness" and we see that observationally. Other cultures come from a more theoretical framework and apply their conception of the good to what is. They enact normative pressure on themselves to attain the good in theory. Often, that winds up in disaster. The Twentieth Century showed us that, IMO. 

And that's why I defer to experts when it comes to matters of theory and cultural history and dialectic, I guess. Because even to practice observation and recommendation is a prejudice of the Western Enlightenment's emphasis on empiricism and scientific methods, which a lot of countries never adopted, or never aspired to. Continental philosophy focuses so much on theory, as Asiatic cultures emphasize the good and theoretical, too. Theirs is a function of historical dialectic, I think, with competing theories and thesis/antithesis/synthesis playing a large role in organizing society rather than observation and adjustment, like we do. 

And thus it is, I guess. 

Our culture is pursuit of dollar, not pursuit of happiness.  

 

[rockaction]

Our culture is pursuit of dollar, not pursuit of happiness.  

I don't necessarily know if that is true. I see a lot of virtue and a lot of people eschewing monetary things for a better overall life. Of course, we need to pay our cable and internet bills, and drive our pickup trucks, too, but don't let the role of money in affairs get you too far down. I'm not sure we're as bought and sold as we think. Some would argue that. I hold out hope. 

 

[AAABatteries]

China, Iran, and Russia are all in cahoots. That's the axis. 

Whither ours? 

Germany needs to arm itself again and become a world power. So does France and the U.K. 

If they want to see democracy ascending, they'd better act like they can defend themselves from three dictatorial states -- autocratic, communist, theocratic -- that are using whatever economic and military might that they have. 

This comment reminded me of Norm.

I don’t know if you guys are history buffs or not.

 

[rockaction]

This comment reminded me of Norm.

I don’t know if you guys are history buffs or not.

lol. Norm was a funny man. "Germany went to war with...the world." 

Believe me, and seriously, I've long thought a defanged Germany is a great thing. They indeed went to war with a bizarre philosophical outlook that was ingrained in their culture. Hegel was German. Marx was German. Nietzsche and Heidegger and the first existentialists, really. The whole history of materialist dialectic is largely German. That's why I talk about Continental philosophy in my previous comments. They have a wildly different starting point from which they operate compared to us. 

I think I might regret typing the sentence, "Germany needs to arm itself." I've thought long and hard about it. Have they really learned and moved on? I can't say for sure. I think they might be truly humbled by their role in the 20th Century. 

So, in jest, a kernel of truth, I guess. 

 

[Sabertooth]

I don't necessarily know if that is true. I see a lot of virtue and a lot of people eschewing monetary things for a better overall life. Of course, we need to pay our cable and internet bills, and drive our pickup trucks, too, but don't let the role of money in affairs get you too far down. I'm not sure we're as bought and sold as we think. Some would argue that. I hold out hope. 

I do this.  I quit my job in 2018 to go back to house flipping full time.  Most people I know do not like their jobs.  They are trapped there though because for some insane reason healthcare is tied to employment in just this one country.  It kills the spirit.  I see it, as I’m sure you do, all the time.  People stay at jobs they hate “for the bennies.”   It’s so oppressive and sad. 

 

[rockaction]

Most people I know do not like their jobs

I can relate. You've said where you live, and it sounds like the meaningful work (manufacturing and trades) has been outsourced, leaving us as greeters at Wal-Mart or working customer service phone banks or something like that. Hardly the stuff where one is happy at the end of the day with the finished product of what one has spent his or her efforts on. That was something that Trump actually touched on. He knows the jobs are garbage and people related to a non-technocrat who wasn't just paying lip service to the importance of a day's good work. He's cynical as all get out, but he knows that due to certain economic shifts, that those jobs are stultifying, soul-sucking, and unfulfilling. He knew how to relate to those people. 

They are trapped there though because for some insane reason healthcare is tied to employment in just this one country.

It was a wartime thing, started in 1942. It was to prevent inflation. It froze wages paid while allowing employers to provide for benefits. Once it shifted to employers, it was never removed from their ambit. 

 

[Sabertooth]

I can relate. You've said where you live, and it sounds like the meaningful work (manufacturing and trades) has been outsourced, leaving us as greeters at Wal-Mart or working customer service phone banks or something like that. Hardly the stuff where one is happy at the end of the day with the finished product of what one has spent his or her efforts on. That was something that Trump actually touched on. He knows the jobs are garbage and people related to a non-technocrat who wasn't just paying lip service to the importance of a day's good work. He's cynical as all get out, but he knows that due to certain economic shifts, that those jobs are stultifying, soul-sucking, and unfulfilling. He knew how to relate to those people. 

It was a wartime thing, started in 1942. It was to prevent inflation. It froze wages paid while allowing employers to provide for benefits. Once it shifted to employers, it was never removed from their ambit. 

I live in a remote (shrinking, booze, heroine and meth loving) town of about 10,000.  The biggest factory is open (paper where my wife works) and was recently bought by a Swedish corporation.  The first thing the new people did was tell workers that they want to collaborate and they are super impressed with the safety and cleanliness of the plant.  So she’s hopeful.  
 

If it sucks, the kids are gone in 3 years, we are moving south.  I’m thinking North Carolina.  

 

[rockaction]

I live in a remote (shrinking, booze, heroine and meth loving) town of about 10,000.  The biggest factory is open (paper where my wife works) and was recently bought by a Swedish corporation.  The first thing the new people did was tell workers that they want to collaborate and they are super impressed with the safety and cleanliness of the plant.  So she’s hopeful.  

If it sucks, the kids are gone in 3 years, we are moving south.  I’m thinking North Carolina.  

Good luck, Sabertooth. Either with the move or at the factory. My girlfriend in college grew up in a town that was centered around the paper mill located therein. She worked there in the summers, and would tell me about the daily dish at the mill. I think the people that owned it wound up leaving the town for greener pastures, though I might not remember the reasons why so well. I was highly politically locked in at the time, and was attributing the mill leaving to the union demands. That might have been wrong, but I've seen how a company can have such a large influence on a town. I hope the new plant winds up good for you all. 

 

[Sabertooth]

Good luck, Sabertooth. Either with the move or at the factory. My girlfriend in college grew up in a town that was centered around the paper mill located therein. She worked there in the summers, and would tell me about the daily dish at the mill. I think the people that owned it wound up leaving the town for greener pastures, though I might not remember the reasons why so well. I was highly politically locked in at the time, and was attributing the mill leaving to the union demands. That might have been wrong, but I've seen how a company can have such a large influence on a town. I hope the new plant winds up good for you all. 

Thank you.  I hope so.  This used to be a pretty prestigious place to work.  Hiring maybe once every 2-3 years in bunches.  Now they can’t keep anyone.  Corporations having taken all the cream off the top.  People are interviewing now and saying it’s a pay cut from working at a law office or medical office.  
 

My wife has been there 21 years, makes a little shy of 50k per year.  Same basically as her job paid 20 years ago but with fewer benefits.  
 

She’s been recruited by every single boss to turn her back on the union and take a big pay raise…almost everyone she knows who did that has been let go over the years.  

I told her if you want to change jobs, let’s just change towns too.  This place is a 65% red #### hole.  I do get amusement from watching guys in 1996 Fords driving around with Trump flags while their tailgates are tied shut with green ratchet straps though.  
 

 

[AAABatteries]

lol. Norm was a funny man. "Germany went to war with...the world." 

Believe me, and seriously, I've long thought a defanged Germany is a great thing. They indeed went to war with a bizarre philosophical outlook that was ingrained in their culture. Hegel was German. Marx was German. Nietzsche and Heidegger and the first existentialists, really. The whole history of materialist dialectic is largely German. That's why I talk about Continental philosophy in my previous comments. They have a wildly different starting point from which they operate compared to us. 

I think I might regret typing the sentence, "Germany needs to arm itself." I've thought long and hard about it. Have they really learned and moved on? I can't say for sure. I think they might be truly humbled by their role in the 20th Century. 

So, in jest, a kernel of truth, I guess. 

Totally just a funny sidebar for me - I think Germany has learned their lesson.    

 

[rockaction]

Totally just a funny sidebar for me - I think Germany has learned their lesson.    

Yeah, that was good by Norm. "History buffs..."

His deadpan stuff makes me smile. When he was on top of his game, there were few funnier. The Conan O'Brien moth joke slays me every time. But that's Russian literature and philosophy, really. 

See what I did there? Always working it back to the topic...I'll do that. 

 

[Stealthycat]

serious consideration to the USA conquering Mexico and Canada .... become the largest country in the world, we'd have great resources to plunder north of the current border, beaches to vacation on south of the current border .... we could be way more independent, have a pro NFL team, the Mexico City Gringo's ... it really would be win win all around I think

 

[moleculo]

I've spent several months across several major cities in China.  It was like I was in another universe outside of Hong Kong.  My American websites were blocked, many places were filthy and poor, they were reticent/afraid to talk politics and they for the most part saw me as a curiosity and kept to themselves.

It is a polar opposite culture IMHO.  

ETA:  I've been to quite a few countries, and China stuck out like a sore thumb in comparison to most of them.  Closest experience was probably the Middle Eastern countries where the cultures are obviously very different there as well.

I am far from a China expert but I have spent a lot of time in China and speak with Chinese co-workers on a weekly basis.  You are right - the culture is polar opposite from ours.  The following are some of my personal thoughts::

My impressions are that the Chinese emphasize the collective whereas we emphasize the individual.  We are concerned about individual rights and liberties whereas the Chinese are concerned about society as a whole - how they fit in, the good of the country.  You kind of have to have an outlook like that with a billion citizens.  You see that emphasis everywhere - how they drive, wait in lines, etc...at least, that's how I perceive it.  The whole concept of "waiting your turn" is foreign to the Chinese - instead, it's about who wants/needs something more gets it.  They don't get upset if someone in a hurry cuts in line or pulls out in front of them.  

They don't care about copying or people copying them.  They don't want to be unique because you can't have a society that large where everyone wants to stand out.  going with the flow seems to be exactly what everyone wants to do.  That philosophy extends to patent law, btw.  They really don't care about IP infringement because the notion of IP is inherently selfish.

They are also very shrewd business men.  Everything is a hustle.  Everyone works hard, their whole lives.  6 day work weeks for a lot of them, and the only time away is Chinese New Years.  And there is no social safety net, no SS, no unemployment.  You have only what you earned.  That being said, every square inch of land is put to work - someone is using every inch to make a buck.  For instance - the circle of land around an entrance ramp to the highway - there may be some guy using that land to grow potted plants.

How this plays out geopolitically - hell if I know.  I know that war with the west means a lot of very wealthy people would get hurt financially.  our economic ties are really, really strong.  the China and US GDP would tank immediately with war.  MAD for sure, but economic destruction.  Could we recover without them?  Could they recover without us?  I don't know.  We are addicted to cheap labor, they are addicted to our capital.  Can we find cheaper labor somewhere else?  Maybe, especially with automation, but it won't be easy.  it would take probably a decade.  What happens in China without us buying their goods?  I think that would ruin them.

 

[Sabertooth]

I am far from a China expert but I have spent a lot of time in China and speak with Chinese co-workers on a weekly basis.  You are right - the culture is polar opposite from ours.  The following are some of my personal thoughts::

My impressions are that the Chinese emphasize the collective whereas we emphasize the individual.  We are concerned about individual rights and liberties whereas the Chinese are concerned about society as a whole - how they fit in, the good of the country.  You kind of have to have an outlook like that with a billion citizens.  You see that emphasis everywhere - how they drive, wait in lines, etc...at least, that's how I perceive it.  The whole concept of "waiting your turn" is foreign to the Chinese - instead, it's about who wants/needs something more gets it.  They don't get upset if someone in a hurry cuts in line or pulls out in front of them.  

They don't care about copying or people copying them.  They don't want to be unique because you can't have a society that large where everyone wants to stand out.  going with the flow seems to be exactly what everyone wants to do.  That philosophy extends to patent law, btw.  They really don't care about IP infringement because the notion of IP is inherently selfish.

They are also very shrewd business men.  Everything is a hustle.  Everyone works hard, their whole lives.  6 day work weeks for a lot of them, and the only time away is Chinese New Years.  And there is no social safety net, no SS, no unemployment.  You have only what you earned.  That being said, every square inch of land is put to work - someone is using every inch to make a buck.  For instance - the circle of land around an entrance ramp to the highway - there may be some guy using that land to grow potted plants.

How this plays out geopolitically - hell if I know.  I know that war with the west means a lot of very wealthy people would get hurt financially.  our economic ties are really, really strong.  the China and US GDP would tank immediately with war.  MAD for sure, but economic destruction.  Could we recover without them?  Could they recover without us?  I don't know.  We are addicted to cheap labor, they are addicted to our capital.  Can we find cheaper labor somewhere else?  Maybe, especially with automation, but it won't be easy.  it would take probably a decade.  What happens in China without us buying their goods?  I think that would ruin them.

Quick note on that.  Look at historical art from China compared to Italy.  Italian is dominated by people and man made things like columns (talking Renaissance), Chinese art is mostly forests and landscapes with small buildings and smaller figures.  It really shows the difference in mindset of self vs being a part of something much bigger.  Anyway...things that interest only me.  

 

[James Daulton]

I am far from a China expert but I have spent a lot of time in China and speak with Chinese co-workers on a weekly basis.  You are right - the culture is polar opposite from ours.  The following are some of my personal thoughts::

My impressions are that the Chinese emphasize the collective whereas we emphasize the individual.  We are concerned about individual rights and liberties whereas the Chinese are concerned about society as a whole - how they fit in, the good of the country.  You kind of have to have an outlook like that with a billion citizens.  You see that emphasis everywhere - how they drive, wait in lines, etc...at least, that's how I perceive it.  The whole concept of "waiting your turn" is foreign to the Chinese - instead, it's about who wants/needs something more gets it.  They don't get upset if someone in a hurry cuts in line or pulls out in front of them.  

They don't care about copying or people copying them.  They don't want to be unique because you can't have a society that large where everyone wants to stand out.  going with the flow seems to be exactly what everyone wants to do.  That philosophy extends to patent law, btw.  They really don't care about IP infringement because the notion of IP is inherently selfish.

They are also very shrewd business men.  Everything is a hustle.  Everyone works hard, their whole lives.  6 day work weeks for a lot of them, and the only time away is Chinese New Years.  And there is no social safety net, no SS, no unemployment.  You have only what you earned.  That being said, every square inch of land is put to work - someone is using every inch to make a buck.  For instance - the circle of land around an entrance ramp to the highway - there may be some guy using that land to grow potted plants.

How this plays out geopolitically - hell if I know.  I know that war with the west means a lot of very wealthy people would get hurt financially.  our economic ties are really, really strong.  the China and US GDP would tank immediately with war.  MAD for sure, but economic destruction.  Could we recover without them?  Could they recover without us?  I don't know.  We are addicted to cheap labor, they are addicted to our capital.  Can we find cheaper labor somewhere else?  Maybe, especially with automation, but it won't be easy.  it would take probably a decade.  What happens in China without us buying their goods?  I think that would ruin them.

Agree completely and thanks for sharing your first hand observation.

The last thing anyone in power in China wants is any kind of "war" with the US.  Obviously there will never be any kind of conflict where the US is invaded or anything, it's simply impossible.  And if the US simply said, we won't buy any more products from China, we'd absolutely face negative consequences in the short run, but we'd recover.  China would never recover from losing the US market and their people would revolt.

Why do we think China allows Taiwan to continue to exist as is?

 

[rockaction]

Quick note on that.  Look at historical art from china compared to Italy.  Italian is dominated by people and man made things like columns (talking Renaissance), Chinese art is mostly forests and landscapes with small buildings and smaller figures.  It really shows the difference in mindset of self vs being a part of something much bigger.  Anyway...things that interest only me.  

Not really. My Enlightenment vs. Continental philosophy argument earlier tonight falls along the same lines as this. That through manifest things we can ascertain a philosophy or way of life behind them. 

 

[KarmaPolice]

Damn, how did I miss this thread yesterday?  Great stuff in here, gentlemen! 

 

[rockaction]

Figured this could use a bump. 

NATO in the balance here.