Todem
Footballguy
Did you watch every game he played last year?I did. Guy is a playa.
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Ilov80s
Footballguy
He isn't getting much love in the drafts I have done, he seems to be a good value where he is going. He is like so many of the RBs in the mid rounds, he has potential, but also could end in a RBBC nightmare.
Grigs Allmoon
Footballguy
I thought we were talking about Fantasy Football here...Points are points. I think you are looking for the "Let's talk about talented RBs" thread.I'm not saying I expect him to reproduce those numbers, but it doesn't matter who we are talking about. Any RB that puts up 600 yards and 4 TDs in three games is having a pretty dominating FF stratch.
whodeywhodey
Footballguy
How can you not include Bernard Scott under the "just and injury away" section?
I think he's at the top of that list.
I think he's at the top of that list.
Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
so, you watched all 11 of those games where he averaged 4 carries at 2.5 ypc?lolzthe only thing keeping harrison from dominating the nfl last season was a guy who was putting up 500 yds and 0 td's at a 3.5 ypc clip, and is currently out of football.
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AtomicDogg97
Footballguy
Even if Hardesty is out with injury, Harrison will still loses touches to Peyton Hillis, who has been getting alot of carries with the first team offense this preseason.
Instinctive
Footballguy
Dude, he wasn't average. Actually, what is the NFL ypc average? Right around 4? 3.7<4.......so I would say not even average.He sucked. He burned 39 downs against Oakland and only got 130 or so yards for it. That's awful production. If a receiver has 39 catches for 130 yards, is that a dominating performance? No.The guy that has 5 catches for 130 yards is more dominating in a massive way...he got the same amount of yardage and used up 34 less offensive plays. He was an incredible asset...just like 130 yards of of 15 carries is WAY more impressive (or should I say "actually" impressive) when compared to 39 carries for 130 yards.39 carries should damn well be an NFL record if we want to call it dominating. And this is coming from the guy who told you all it would happen a week or two before it did...You're right, he wasn't even average in those games.Guys, peddle this junk somewhere else.
187/2 average over 3 games is dominating. Two weeks early he put up 67/2 receiving. Love him or hate him, I think it is safe to say he dominated at the end of the year when he played.He had the one monster game against KC. 34/286/3Didn't he average like 200/2 once he took over the starting job?
And his yardage TD totals look good in his other two starts
148/1 vs Oak
127/1 vs Jax
But considering it took him 39 carries in the Oakland game and another 33 in the Jacksonville game to put up those numbers, I'd hardly call it dominating.
shader
Footballguy
Please stop. You're just digging your hole deeper. Honestly, in 4 years of reading these boards, I don't know that I've ever seen a more ridiculous argument than the one you and koolaid guy are totally failing at.Dude, he wasn't average. Actually, what is the NFL ypc average? Right around 4? 3.7<4.......so I would say not even average.He sucked. He burned 39 downs against Oakland and only got 130 or so yards for it. That's awful production. If a receiver has 39 catches for 130 yards, is that a dominating performance? No.The guy that has 5 catches for 130 yards is more dominating in a massive way...he got the same amount of yardage and used up 34 less offensive plays. He was an incredible asset...just like 130 yards of of 15 carries is WAY more impressive (or should I say "actually" impressive) when compared to 39 carries for 130 yards.39 carries should damn well be an NFL record if we want to call it dominating. And this is coming from the guy who told you all it would happen a week or two before it did...You're right, he wasn't even average in those games.Guys, peddle this junk somewhere else.
shader
Footballguy
I don't really think Scott is an every-down RB. I don't personally think he could make the top ten even if he was the sole starter.
gandalas
Footballguy
You know what, in one league last season I picked up Massaquoi after his first decent game last season (8-148 in week 3). Naturally, that next week, he only got 1 for 16 yards. However, THAT week's big game was had by Miles Austin (10-250-2TD in week 4). Of course, I figured that game was just an aberration as well, so instead of dropping big Massaquoi for Austin, I stood pat.My point is, sometimes that first big game DOES lead to bigger things. It just takes picking the correct ones."Player X did well for me last week. He ran for 200 yards and 3 touchdowns.""HAHAHA! Classic newb mistake! Classic statistical misinterpretation! Classic drawing of conclusions from inadequate sample size! The man has a whole career of mediocrity, and besides, he didn't achieve the numbers in the efficient way I'd prefer to see my TRUE studs do it! HE S-U-C-K-S.""
Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
harrison's new nick is 'the dominator!'
or, we could make it 'the dominatrix'
vote!
or, we could make it 'the dominatrix'
vote!
I think a lot of people are losing sight of the big picture on Jerome Harrison.
CLE offense had nearly 500 carries 2,100 yds and #8 rushing rank in tough AFC North
O-Line consistently rated "A" by many OL gurus for run blocking
HArrison is clearly lead back and, even if Hillis take 40% of last year's total, that's still 1200 yds
TD expectations should probably modest
Hopefully an upgrade at QB but certainly can't do worse
ADP of RB33
He's not gonna be Chris Johnson but chances are good for a solid RB2 performance at RB3/4 pricing
CLE offense had nearly 500 carries 2,100 yds and #8 rushing rank in tough AFC North
O-Line consistently rated "A" by many OL gurus for run blocking
HArrison is clearly lead back and, even if Hillis take 40% of last year's total, that's still 1200 yds
TD expectations should probably modest
Hopefully an upgrade at QB but certainly can't do worse
ADP of RB33
He's not gonna be Chris Johnson but chances are good for a solid RB2 performance at RB3/4 pricing
Instinctive
Footballguy
I think the best part is how he attacks the guys posting explanations rather than make an argument against the explanation...do you have an actual response?
Ilov80s
Footballguy
:goodposting bolded, especially. He is one of many players at RB who have a similar potential.
FUBAR
Footballguy
You make great points throughout and I agree on most. But Ringer as a top 10 w/o CJ, I just can't buy. The kid has decent talent and the team will help some, but top 10 is way too high. You're putting him above Ryan Grant among others, he's more likely RB2 material. Still a good value.
money.never.sleeps
Footballguy
I'd have to disagree... last year he got 2 starts and carried the ball 21x, 119 along with 3 rec. for 32 yds. Was @ Oakland and he did break a 61 yarder but still did decent. Other game I believe was vs. Cleveland where he put up 18/87. Also got 13 carries @ Pitt for 33, 1 rec. for 21. Not sure but may have been the game where Benson left. Limited carries and a bit undersized (listed at 197) but he is an explosive player with good running ability. Stats also show he ran well late in games and good YPC avg. when the Bengals were behind 1-8 and up 1-8 points.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Yeah, Ringer can not do what Johnson does. He would be productive because he would get a lot of touches, but I see him anywhere near top 10 production.
money.never.sleeps
Footballguy
to chime in I'd have to think after what I've seen of LeGerrette Blount that if CJ where to go down he would get some touches also. Big, powerful back that breaks tackles.
shader
Footballguy
Titan coaches are in love with Ringer. I think this guy is gonna have some big years in this league. Fisher is going to run the ball no doubt. If CJ were to get hurt, I think Ringer would shock everyone. I think he's one of the most under-rated backs in the league right now. I could be wrong, but it's a longshot, ya know?
shader
Footballguy
No he can't do with CJ does. CJ happened to blow away the number 2 RB by a wide margin in some scoring formats.But can Ringer get 1300 yards and 10 td's in the Titans offense? Without question, imo.
FUBAR
Footballguy
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Harrison was the 2nd highest scoring fantasy RB over the last games of the season behind Chris Johnson. You can argue Charles' only did so well because he had so many touches. However, Chris Johnson had 23 more touches over that period of time and scored just a handful more fantasy points than Harrison. Harrison dominated towards the end of last year, ask anyone who got stuck playing against Harrison in then playoffs. I'm not sold on him repeating that level of play, but he showed he has the potential to be great.Didn't he average like 200/2 once he took over the starting job?
that reminds me of a great quote, although I can't actually remember who it's from, and probably thousands have said something similar:
some guy who played with wilt chamberlain fondly recalled the night where he and wilt combined for 105 points, or whatever it was.
so, let's take a look at the sample you're averaging, while bearing in mind that his competition at the time was rookie udfa chris jennings, and rookie 6th rounder james davis......
here's the domination:
wk15 @KC 34 carries 286 yds 8.4 ypc 3 td
this is absolute domination in every sense of the word over a team that was 27 yds away from giving up the most rushing yardage in all of football -- but still domination, we agree 100%.
wk16 vs OAK 39 carries 148 yds 3.8 ypc 1 td
if this is domination then I guess I just don't know what domination is, because it looks more like a pretty average effort by a guy getting nearly 40 carries against one of the worst offenses in the league, which scored 9 in the game.
the oakland raiders gave up the most rush td's in the league (1.5 per game), the 4th most yardage (about 150 ypg, and a horrible average 4.5 ypc --- harrison manages 3.8 ypc and 1 td, but this is domination?
dude, you give any back in the league 40 carries and he'll put up some numbers.
wk17 vs jax 33 carries 127 yds 3.8 ypc 1 td
now, here's a team that's actually not one of the very worst rush defenses in football --- they were merely average (4.1 ypc), however another 3.8 ypc and 1 td on on 33 carries doesn't seem very dominating to me, unless you mean a dominant number of carries.
so, if he's playing kc 16x, or you want to make the case that he's getting 500 carries, then I'm a big believer.
until then, you've got one fluke game from an average back against zero competition.
I would imagine cleveland holds hardesty in somewhat higher regard than jennings or davis.
Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
who would win a naked greco-roman wrestling match --- harrison or ringer?
52 points in PPR sounds pretty good to me.(58 points if you score him a TD since we're comparing to Harrison's numbers) I'll take it!Look, I probably won't have Harrison on any rosters this year, there are many arguments you can make not to take him, but this was not one of them. I tend to agree more with you in this argument, but you only helped Shader's argument with this post.Instinctive said:Dude, he wasn't average. Actually, what is the NFL ypc average? Right around 4? 3.7<4.......so I would say not even average.shader said:You're right, he wasn't even average in those games.CaptainHook said:Guys, peddle this junk somewhere else.
He sucked. He burned 39 downs against Oakland and only got 130 or so yards for it. That's awful production. If a receiver has 39 catches for 130 yards, is that a dominating performance? No.
The guy that has 5 catches for 130 yards is more dominating in a massive way...he got the same amount of yardage and used up 34 less offensive plays. He was an incredible asset...just like 130 yards of of 15 carries is WAY more impressive (or should I say "actually" impressive) when compared to 39 carries for 130 yards.
39 carries should damn well be an NFL record if we want to call it dominating. And this is coming from the guy who told you all it would happen a week or two before it did...
eakfootball
Footballguy
Addai was top 10 with 828 yards?
money.never.sleeps
Footballguy
10 rush TDs, 51 rec., 336 rec yards with 3 rec. TD. Guess that adds up
Todem
Footballguy
It is becoming more and more evident what a tool you are. You have nothing to add here.Congrads...your my very first ignore. Not so nice knowing ya.All your posts are
I'm a junkie. Read all the popular boards multiple times a day... rarely ever post. Watching this thread deteriorate, I remember why.
I appreciate your taking the time to post your unusual opinions. They helped convince me that I'm not completely nuts for targeting a couple of players that I consider extremely good value this year. If you'd rather not take a beating for posting something of value, may I suggest your next post just state that Finley is the greatest fantasy player of all time. Those posts fly to the top & lack any criticism.
Thanks Shader for the most interesting post I've read in the last two weeks.
I appreciate your taking the time to post your unusual opinions. They helped convince me that I'm not completely nuts for targeting a couple of players that I consider extremely good value this year. If you'd rather not take a beating for posting something of value, may I suggest your next post just state that Finley is the greatest fantasy player of all time. Those posts fly to the top & lack any criticism.
Thanks Shader for the most interesting post I've read in the last two weeks.
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The fact that he was Cleveland's 3rd down back before he finally got the feature role late makes all those Behind matchups appealing as well. Couple that with a less than impressive receiving corp and great hands, I think he'll be a viable RB2 most weeks. At least in the RBBC era of 2010.Saint said:
Zegras11
Footballguy
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
What a great thread title, and Shader has had several over the past 4-6 weeks for anyone that has been reading his stuff, nice work.
It seems like Harrison is one of the most hotly debated players om this list. I see the argument both ways. On the one hand he did get an absurd amount of touches in some of these games during the very coldest part of the season and we all know Cleveland could not throw the football. I doubt that Harrison will be getting north of 30 carries, heck 25 carries in a whole lot of games early on in the season.
That said I'm not sure he will need them. Whether you like Delhomme or not he is an improvement over what they had there previously. Cleveland will not blow the doors off anyone but they have a decent OL and then you factor in that Montario Hardesty has been injury ridden since he the day he was drafted. Would I want to start Harrison every week at RB early on in the season? I'm not sure but if you wait till the 7th round to grab your RB2 then you loaded up at WR/QB/TE, you probably are going to come back and grab a couple more RBs in the 8th and 9th, guys like Portis, LT, etc...you likely are going to platoon the position and look for match ups that you want. I like Harrison in that format and part of the overall make up of that type of team especially. He might surprise and we are talking about a starting RB that you won't invest a real high pick in.
In best ball I absolutely love Harrison as I believe he will have some big games throughout the season and obviously in that format you don't have to think much about who you want to start. There are valid points on the supportrs side and the naysayers side but overall he seems like an easy choice in the middle of the 7th round.
It seems like Harrison is one of the most hotly debated players om this list. I see the argument both ways. On the one hand he did get an absurd amount of touches in some of these games during the very coldest part of the season and we all know Cleveland could not throw the football. I doubt that Harrison will be getting north of 30 carries, heck 25 carries in a whole lot of games early on in the season.
That said I'm not sure he will need them. Whether you like Delhomme or not he is an improvement over what they had there previously. Cleveland will not blow the doors off anyone but they have a decent OL and then you factor in that Montario Hardesty has been injury ridden since he the day he was drafted. Would I want to start Harrison every week at RB early on in the season? I'm not sure but if you wait till the 7th round to grab your RB2 then you loaded up at WR/QB/TE, you probably are going to come back and grab a couple more RBs in the 8th and 9th, guys like Portis, LT, etc...you likely are going to platoon the position and look for match ups that you want. I like Harrison in that format and part of the overall make up of that type of team especially. He might surprise and we are talking about a starting RB that you won't invest a real high pick in.
In best ball I absolutely love Harrison as I believe he will have some big games throughout the season and obviously in that format you don't have to think much about who you want to start. There are valid points on the supportrs side and the naysayers side but overall he seems like an easy choice in the middle of the 7th round.
His own coach has been talking about the need to stop fumbling this year...after the fusion.I am being very contrarian in this pick. Chris Johnson had cervical fusion in his neck as well in college. We shall see if his fumbling issues continue...because 2 years ago he did not have that problem. Nerve damage going down your arm can do that.Dude has major fumbling issues and had a cervical fusion in the offseason. He'll be lucky to hang onto 3rd down duties all year. And he'll likely see Zero goalline action.Very
They don't seem to agree with your theory.
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Rick James
Footballguy
Football is a team game. Cleveland was awful last year and Harrison performed well considering his surroundings. It's not absurd to think that Cleveland improves its offense and Harrison benefits. Add in the fact that you can get JH in the 8-10th rounds, and I'm in.CaptainHook said:
Rick James
Footballguy
I'm pretty sure this is one of the dumbest arguments I've ever read.Instinctive said:Dude, he wasn't average. Actually, what is the NFL ypc average? Right around 4? 3.7<4.......so I would say not even average.He sucked. He burned 39 downs against Oakland and only got 130 or so yards for it. That's awful production. If a receiver has 39 catches for 130 yards, is that a dominating performance? No.The guy that has 5 catches for 130 yards is more dominating in a massive way...he got the same amount of yardage and used up 34 less offensive plays. He was an incredible asset...just like 130 yards of of 15 carries is WAY more impressive (or should I say "actually" impressive) when compared to 39 carries for 130 yards.39 carries should damn well be an NFL record if we want to call it dominating. And this is coming from the guy who told you all it would happen a week or two before it did...shader said:You're right, he wasn't even average in those games.CaptainHook said:
shader
Footballguy
Those not on the Ringer bandwagon, tune in tonight to the Titans-Panthers game. I expect (hope! because I cringe when CJ touches the ball in preseason) to see Ringer get alot of work with the 1st team.
I am very high on this kid in dynasty leagues. It might take awhile to get great value, or the value could come instantly if an injury happens..but the kid is going to be a very good RB.
I am very high on this kid in dynasty leagues. It might take awhile to get great value, or the value could come instantly if an injury happens..but the kid is going to be a very good RB.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Isn't picking the No. 2 RB (with exceptions) generally speaking the most important question in FF?
Last year if you had Peterson you may have done pretty well.
Last year if you had Peterson and Ray Rice you may have won your league.
So: who is this year's Ray Rice?
Low auction cost / low pick, high, high, high returns. Who is it?
Last year if you had Peterson you may have done pretty well.
Last year if you had Peterson and Ray Rice you may have won your league.
So: who is this year's Ray Rice?
Low auction cost / low pick, high, high, high returns. Who is it?
cr8f
Footballguy
With goal line work going to Foster(if it does) doubt he gets 10 carries a game.
Todem
Footballguy
Follow the herd...go ahead.
If all I did was base my fantasy decisions on Roto World news and their take I would be in he poor house.
It is a a very unpopular call I am making here. Because I remember a guy named Tiki Barber having serious issues putting the ball on the ground..but he worked on it, Walter Payton had more fumbles in his first 3 years in the league than Adrian Peterson who everyone is also so concerned about with fumble.
I will say it again I am not comparing Slaton to ADP, Payton, Barber....but anyone who watched him play in 2008 knows how talented and explosive he is. He is without question the most talented playmaker at the RB position in Houston.
By mid season (granted his fumbles are solved) he will be he guy.
If not...who cares look where you can get him in drafts right now.
If all I did was base my fantasy decisions on Roto World news and their take I would be in he poor house.
It is a a very unpopular call I am making here. Because I remember a guy named Tiki Barber having serious issues putting the ball on the ground..but he worked on it, Walter Payton had more fumbles in his first 3 years in the league than Adrian Peterson who everyone is also so concerned about with fumble.
I will say it again I am not comparing Slaton to ADP, Payton, Barber....but anyone who watched him play in 2008 knows how talented and explosive he is. He is without question the most talented playmaker at the RB position in Houston.
By mid season (granted his fumbles are solved) he will be he guy.
If not...who cares look where you can get him in drafts right now.
Todem
Footballguy
Ahmad Bradshaw, maybe CJ Spiller. Tough call this year.
Instinctive
Footballguy
Fantasy points is a completely moronic way to look at it. That performance was incredibly poor compared to the guy who scored a TD with 130 yards on only 5 catches. The other guy used THIRTY-FIVE more snaps. A team only gets what, 60 a game? And he wasted 35 to do exactly what the other guy did for his team with only 5 catches. Which team do you think won? One team had an extra 35 snaps to play with offensively...I would guess they had a significantly higher chance of winning.52 points in PPR sounds pretty good to me.(58 points if you score him a TD since we're comparing to Harrison's numbers) I'll take it!Look, I probably won't have Harrison on any rosters this year, there are many arguments you can make not to take him, but this was not one of them. I tend to agree more with you in this argument, but you only helped Shader's argument with this post.Instinctive said:Dude, he wasn't average. Actually, what is the NFL ypc average? Right around 4? 3.7<4.......so I would say not even average.shader said:You're right, he wasn't even average in those games.CaptainHook said:Guys, peddle this junk somewhere else.
He sucked. He burned 39 downs against Oakland and only got 130 or so yards for it. That's awful production. If a receiver has 39 catches for 130 yards, is that a dominating performance? No.
The guy that has 5 catches for 130 yards is more dominating in a massive way...he got the same amount of yardage and used up 34 less offensive plays. He was an incredible asset...just like 130 yards of of 15 carries is WAY more impressive (or should I say "actually" impressive) when compared to 39 carries for 130 yards.
39 carries should damn well be an NFL record if we want to call it dominating. And this is coming from the guy who told you all it would happen a week or two before it did...
This is exactly the trap many fantasy owners fall into. High fantasy point production is ABSOLUTELY NOT automatically equal to high NFL production. If a coach had those two guys I outlined above, the 15 carry guy would see the field...the 39 carry guy who got the same amount of yards? He'd be used purely out of necessity...almost like Harrison last year when everyone else was hurt or sucked even worse.
Now, saying that the CLE backs this year will still be hurt and/or suck worse than Harrison is a completely legitimate argument for him to be a nice pick...because he'll again get massive touches. But if you think he'll be good because he "dominated" last year...you're absolutely wrong. He didn't dominate. He was below average on a massive amount of touches and he had dominant FANTASY scores.
Would you rather, as an NFL coach, have Brandon Marshall's record setting game last year...or Miles Austin against the chiefs? Both were "dominating" in fantasy totals, but Austin was immensely more valuable to his team even though they had similar production. Why? Austin had 11 catches (iirc) and Marshall had 22. He wasted twice as many downs. And which team won? The cowboys...did the Broncos win? nope.
I'm totally on board with Harrison as a good pick this year...but to say he will "dominate again" when he has yet to dominate is an absurd argument. He'll be an ugly good player, a guy who does very well on fantasy teams with little to no competition for touches, but doesn't actually help the Browns a whole hell of a lot. If Hardesty doesn't work out (and even if he does) there's a really good chance they draft another RB next year.
Man In The Box
Footballguy
Ahmad Bradshaw
Instinctive
Footballguy
And it's not even that tough because you can get em both...say you start with 4 picks that are WR, elite TE, elite QB, WR , in some variation. You can spend the next few rounds stockpiling these guys, all of whom look like RB2s with upside, and if one hits you're in good shape, and if two hit you're in great shape. Bradshaw and Spiller are my favorites, and you can draft Bradshaw 5th, Spiller 6th, Bush (OAK) 7th, and perhaps D Brown in the 8th.A really big home run swing is Kareem Huggins very late, and Chris Ivory...Ivory was a great pickup when Hamilton went down for dynasty, because PT/Bush haven't exactly been the poster boys for health...Huggins is the #2 already in TB and Caddy hasn't really been the same either. Caddy also hasn't looked that great, while Huggins could have a nice little Forsett-esque run late this year to help owners win some leagues.
Happy Ragnarok
Footballguy
He didn't dominate, he was merely dominant?Okay. Quick show of hands. How many of you play for the Cleveland Browns? Ok, hands down. Now, how many of you have fantasy football teams? Great, put 'em down again. Last question: where is it more important to you whether or not a player dominates?Do you really think you're the only one here who can tell the difference between real football and fantasy football? Are you really that certain the rest of us are all rubes? It may just be that we're the ones who are able to differentiate, and can therefore tell that 187/2, no matter how it comes about, is still a dominant performance in a game decided entirely by stats. Arguing that it isn't because you don't care for the way it happened doesn't make us the knuckleheads.
Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
I don't think he's making any case as to how you got that way.
Instinctive
Footballguy
Spiller has looked really good as of late as well. Really glad I grabbed him in my redrafts as a "need" pick. With the opportunity he has week 1, he my never look back and perform as a nice RB1 even. Good things happen for him.
Instinctive
Footballguy
I reread my post...where did I say he was dominant? He wasn't. That was the point of the post. And 187/2 on such a massive amount of touches isn't dominant in the NFL. Where does he play? The NFL. If his team wants to continue to burn an extra 15 downs a game to get the same production they could potentially get out of a better back with less touches, then I'm wrong. I typically assume that any given team wishes to maximize its offensive effectiveness, obtaining a maximum amount of points at a minimum amount of downs. Therefore, the end result could be NOT dominant, as with JH. And when that happens, I find it to be more likely that his NFL team gives him less touches...and when you "dominating" FANTASY statline is derived completely from massive opportunity, and that opportunity goes away...so does the statline.It is important that my players are actually good, because I like them to continue to start for their real teams, and, thus, continue to accrue points for my team. If you think Harrison is good enough to produce as well on less touches (because, let's be honest, he won't personally get more rushing attempts than all but ONE entire TEAM did last season) then you have a valid argument for him continuing to score well in fantasy.If your argument is that he will continue to do well in fantasy by performing as he did at the end of last year, you're most likely incorrect, my friend. If he performs at such a terrible clip on a consistent basis, he won't be much help in fantasy. Those guys get replaced.
