Great Offensive Linemen playing together (1 Viewer)

[Chase Stuart]

You guys may remember these posts about great linebackers and great defensive linemen playing on the same team during the peak years of their career. I've done the same thing for offensive lineman -- available here at the PFR blog.

To rank the offensive linemen, we’re going to use Doug’s Approximate Value system. I recorded the best three seasons for all linemen since 1950 to assign a “peak AV rating” for each player. For each player-season, I took the lineman’s peak AV rating and then adjusted his score for age. What adjustment?

Last August, Doug looked at which great running backs were helped most by their offensive lines. He used the following aging curve for the big uglies:

Age PctOfPeak

============

21 => 0.48

22 => 0.48

23 => 0.57

24 => 0.81

25 => 0.93

26 => 0.97

27 => 1.00

28 => 1.00

29 => 0.97

30 => 0.91

31 => 0.90

32 => 0.88

33 => 0.78

34 => 0.76

35 => 0.77

36 => 0.63

37 => 0.62

38 => 0.62

39 => 0.62

40 => 0.62

That’s slightly different than the one I derived for defensive linemen; that could be because of the different ways you could interpret the data, or it could be because offensive and defensive linemen actually have different curves. That might be interesting to look at in a future post, but for now the above aging curve looks good to me. From there, it’s really simple — we multiply each lineman’s peak AV grade by his age weight to obtain his value for each season. Then we add that number for each of the members of the starting five for every team since 1950.

....

More text follows, which is probably worth reading before you jump to the super heavy criticism

tm-yr	  avg	LT						LG						 C							RG						 RTrai-1973   12.4   Art Shell (27): 16		Gene Upshaw (28): 15.3	 Jim Otto (35): 10.3		  George Buehler (26): 8.1   Bob Brown (32): 12.3gnb-1961   12.2   Bob Skoronski (27): 7.7   Fuzzy Thurston (28): 11.7  Jim Ringo (30): 13.7		 Jerry Kramer (25): 13	  Forrest Gregg (28): 14.7mia-1973   12.0   Wayne Moore (28): 10	  Bob Kuechenberg (26): 10.7 Jim Langer (25): 13.6		Larry Little (28): 15	  Norm Evans (31): 10.5cle-1959   11.9   Lou Groza (35): 11.8	  Jim Ray Smith (27): 15	 Art Hunter (26): 9.7		 Gene Hickerson (24): 10.8  Mike McCormack (29): 12.3dal-1972   11.8   Ralph Neely (29): 14.2	John Niland (28): 13	   Dave Manders (31): 8.1	   Blaine Nye (26): 8.4	   Rayfield Wright (27): 15.3cle-1962   11.7   **** Schafrath (25): 14.6 Jim Ray Smith (30): 13.7   John Morrow (29): 10		 John Wooten (26): 9.1	  Mike McCormack (32): 11.1cle-1960   11.6   **** Schafrath (23): 8.9  Jim Ray Smith (28): 15	 John Morrow (27): 10.3	   Gene Hickerson (25): 12.4  Mike McCormack (30): 11.5dal-1973   11.6   Ralph Neely (30): 13.3	John Niland (29): 12.6	 John Fitzgerald (25): 8.1	Blaine Nye (27): 8.7	   Rayfield Wright (28): 15.3rai-1970   11.5   Art Shell (24): 13		Gene Upshaw (25): 14.3	 Jim Otto (32): 11.7		  Jim Harvey (27): 6.3	   Harry Schuh (28): 12sfo-1990   11.3   Bubba Paris (30): 8.8	 Guy McIntyre (29): 11.3	Jesse Sapolu (29): 9.7	   Harris Barton (26): 14.9   Steve Wallace (26): 12sfo-1991   11.3   Steve Wallace (27): 12.3  Guy McIntyre (30): 10.6	Jesse Sapolu (30): 9.1	   Roy Foster (31): 9		 Harris Barton (27): 15.3mia-1972   11.2   Doug Crusan (26): 8.4	 Bob Kuechenberg (25): 10.2 Jim Langer (24): 11.9		Larry Little (27): 15	  Norm Evans (30): 10.6cle-1958   11.1   Lou Groza (34): 11.7	  Jim Ray Smith (26): 14.6   Art Hunter (25): 9.3		 Chuck Noll (26): 7.1	   Mike McCormack (28): 12.7min-1972   11.1   Grady Alderman (34): 8.9  Ed White (25): 9		   Mick Tingelhoff (32): 12	 Milt Sunde (30): 7.3	   Ron Yary (26): 18.1mia-1977   11.0   Wayne Moore (32): 8.8	 Bob Kuechenberg (30): 10   Jim Langer (29): 14.2		Larry Little (32): 13.2	Mike Current (32): 8.8cle-1964   11.0   **** Schafrath (27): 15.7 John Wooten (28): 9.3	  John Morrow (31): 9.3		Gene Hickerson (29): 12.9  Monte Clark (27): 7.7mia-1979   10.9   Bob Kuechenberg (32): 9.7 Ed Newman (28): 12.7	   Jim Langer (31): 13.2		Larry Little (34): 11.4	Mike Current (34): 7.6rai-1974   10.9   Art Shell (28): 16		Gene Upshaw (29): 14.9	 Jim Otto (36): 8.4		   George Buehler (27): 8.3   John Vella (24): 6.8mia-1974   10.9   Tom Funchess (30): 4.2	Bob Kuechenberg (27): 11   Jim Langer (26): 14.2		Larry Little (29): 14.6	Norm Evans (32): 10.3gnb-1959   10.9   Norm Masters (26): 5.8	Fuzzy Thurston (26): 11.3  Jim Ringo (28): 15		   Jerry Kramer (23): 8	   Forrest Gregg (26): 14.2rai-1977   10.8   Art Shell (31): 14.4	  Gene Upshaw (32): 13.5	 Dave Dalby (27): 9		   George Buehler (30): 7.6   Henry Lawrence (26): 9.7rai-1975   10.8   Art Shell (29): 15.5	  Gene Upshaw (30): 14	   Dave Dalby (25): 8.4		 George Buehler (28): 8.3   John Vella (25): 7.8cle-1956   10.8   Lou Groza (32): 13.5	  Abe Gibron (31): 11.1	  Frank Gatski (34): 11.4	  Harold Bradley (27): 5.7   Mike McCormack (26): 12.3cle-1952   10.8   Lou Groza (28): 15.3	  Abe Gibron (27): 12.3	  Frank Gatski (30): 13.7	  Lin Houston (31): 4.5	  John Sandusky (27): 8was-1989   10.6   Jim Lachey (26): 14.6	 Russ Grimm (30): 11.2	  Jeff Bostic (31): 7.2		Mark May (30): 7		   Joe Jacoby (30): 13sfo-1988   10.5   Steve Wallace (24): 10	Jesse Sapolu (27): 10	  Randy Cross (34): 8.6		Guy McIntyre (27): 11.7	Harris Barton (24): 12.4clt-1959   10.5   Jim Parker (25): 14.3	 Art Spinney (32): 10.9	 Buzz Nutter (28): 8.3		Alex Sandusky (27): 9.7	George Preas (26): 9.4mia-1971   10.5   Doug Crusan (25): 8.1	 Bob Kuechenberg (24): 8.9  Bob DeMarco (33): 9.6		Larry Little (26): 14.6	Norm Evans (29): 11.3kan-2002   10.4   Willie Roaf (32): 13.2	Brian Waters (25): 10.9	Casey Wiegmann (29): 8.4	 Will Shields (31): 11.7	John Tait (27): 8cle-1953   10.4   Lou Groza (29): 14.9	  Abe Gibron (28): 12.3	  Frank Gatski (31): 13.5	  Chuck Noll (21): 3.5	   John Sandusky (28): 8cle-1963   10.4   **** Schafrath (26): 15.2 John Wooten (27): 9.3	  John Morrow (30): 9.4		Gene Hickerson (28): 13.3  John Brown (24): 4.9min-1975   10.4   Charles Goodrum (25): 6.5 Andy Maurer (27): 7		Mick Tingelhoff (35): 10.5   Ed White (28): 9.7		 Ron Yary (29): 18.1nwe-1978   10.3   Leon Gray (27): 14.7	  John Hannah (27): 14.3	 Bill Lenkaitis (32): 7.3	 Sam Adams (30): 7		  Shelby Jordan (26): 8.4min-1970   10.3   Grady Alderman (32): 10.3 Jim Vellone (26): 5.8	  Mick Tingelhoff (30): 12.4   Milt Sunde (28): 8		 Ron Yary (24): 15.1sfo-1951   10.3   Ray Collins (24): 9.5	 Nick Feher (25): 4.7	   Bill Johnson (25): 9.9	   Bruno Banducci (31): 10.2  Leo Nomellini (27): 17.3clt-2001   10.3   Tarik Glenn (25): 13	  Steve McKinney (26): 7.1   Jeff Saturday (26): 14.9	 Larry Moore (26): 7.1	  Adam Meadows (27): 9.3dal-1993   10.2   Mark Tuinei (33): 8.1	 Nate Newton (32): 10.6	 Mark Stepnoski (26): 10.7	Kevin Gogan (29): 9.7	  Erik Williams (25): 12.1sfo-1989   10.2   Bubba Paris (29): 9.4	 Guy McIntyre (28): 11.7	Jesse Sapolu (28): 10		Bruce Collie (27): 5.7	 Harris Barton (25): 14.3sfo-1993   10.2   Steve Wallace (29): 12	Guy McIntyre (32): 10.3	Jesse Sapolu (32): 8.8	   Ralph Tamm (27): 5		 Harris Barton (29): 14.9clt-2002   10.2   Tarik Glenn (26): 13.6	Rick DeMulling (25): 6.8   Jeff Saturday (27): 15.3	 Ryan Diem (23): 5.9		Adam Meadows (28): 9.3sdg-1973   10.2   Terry Owens (29): 7.4	 Doug Wilkerson (26): 12	Carl Mauck (26): 6.8		 Walt Sweeney (32): 10.9	Russ Washington (27): 13.7dal-1970   10.2   Tony Liscio (30): 8.2	 John Niland (26): 12.6	 Dave Manders (29): 8.7	   Blaine Nye (24): 7		 Rayfield Wright (25): 14.3was-1986   10.1   Joe Jacoby (27): 14.3	 Russ Grimm (27): 12.3	  Jeff Bostic (28): 8		  R.C. Thielemann (31): 8.4  Mark May (27): 7.7ram-1969   10.1   Charley Cowan (31): 10.8  Tom Mack (26): 11.6		Ken Iman (30): 7			 Joe Scibelli (30): 7.3	 Bob Brown (28): 14clt-2004   10.1   Tarik Glenn (28): 14	  Rick DeMulling (27): 7.3   Jeff Saturday (29): 14.9	 Jake Scott (23): 4.8	   Ryan Diem (25): 9.6ram-2000   10.1   Orlando Pace (25): 17.1   Tom Nutten (29): 7.8	   Andy McCollum (30): 7.6	  Adam Timmerman (29): 9.4   Ryan Tucker (25): 8.7mia-1982   10.1   Jon Giesler (26): 8.7	 Bob Kuechenberg (35): 8.5  Dwight Stephenson (25): 14.9 Ed Newman (31): 11.4	   Eric Laakso (26): 7.1mia-1976   10.1   Wayne Moore (31): 9	   Bob Kuechenberg (29): 10.7 Jim Langer (28): 14.7		Larry Little (31): 13.5	Darryl Carlton (23): 2.7hou-1988   10.1   Bruce E. Davis (32): 8.2  Mike Munchak (28): 12.3	Jay Pennison (27): 7		 Bruce Matthews (27): 14.7  Dean Steinkuhler (27): 8.3clt-2005   10.0   Tarik Glenn (29): 13.6	Ryan Lilja (24): 5.4	   Jeff Saturday (30): 14	   Jake Scott (24): 6.8	   Ryan Diem (26): 10nwe-1977   10.0   Leon Gray (26): 14.2	  John Hannah (26): 13.9	 Bill Lenkaitis (31): 7.5	 Sam Adams (29): 7.4		Tom Neville (34): 6.8

Full post available here: some discussion of some famous but non-listed teams occurs in the post.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Eek. Just noticed the ugly formatting here. Not sure if there's anything I can do about that, but the formatting is much better on the blog.

 

[faux_bear]

Those Hall of Famers on the Dolphins in the 70's were pretty beastly - Kuechenberg, Langer, Little.

 

[BusMan]

Broncos had a pretty good OL last year. I wonder how their numbers would crunch out?

 

[Swampy]

I dont think there will ever be a greater offensive line than Upshaw Shell and Otto. Defensives must have used a Barry Bonds like shift to stop these guys...with any luck

 

[switz]

Where are Tuinei, Allen, Newton of the 90's Cowboys?

 

[Christo]

Where are Tuinei, Allen, Newton of the 90's Cowboys?

And Erik Williams.

 

[Bri]

Does the Steelers lines not being on there make you want to adjust your formula? Or shed light on something?

I wonder if any current lines could be thrown in?

 

[Chase Stuart]

Broncos had a pretty good OL last year. I wonder how their numbers would crunch out?

The formula was not created to rate 2008 offensive lines.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Where are Tuinei, Allen, Newton of the 90's Cowboys?

Tuinei and Newton are a full decade older than Allen. As such, they don't really fit the mold of great players playing together during their primes. The '93 Cowboys are the best iteration of the '90s Cowboys according to the system I used; the best Allen team was the '99 Cowboys, and as explained in the comments, isn't far behind the '93 squad.On say, the '95 team, none of the three players you named were in their primes. Tuinei was 35, Newton was 34, Donaldson was 37(!), Allen was just 24. Only Erik Williams at 27 was anywhere near what you would call an OL's prime years.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Does the Steelers lines not being on there make you want to adjust your formula? Or shed light on something? I wonder if any current lines could be thrown in?

Not really. They had Kolb and Davis on the left side of their line for most of the '70s, and while both were good players, neither ever made a Pro Bowl. Gordon Gravelle and Gerry Mullins were on a couple of the SB teams on the right side of the line, and neither of them ever made a Pro Bowl, either.Those Steelers teams were great, because they had Bradshaw and Harris, and Swann and Stallworth, and a ton of elite talent on the defensive side of the ball. I'm not saying the OL was a weakness, because it wasn't, but I don't see any evidence to indicate that they were an all time great offensive line. They had one all time great player, though.

 

[switz]

Where are Tuinei, Allen, Newton of the 90's Cowboys?

Tuinei and Newton are a full decade older than Allen. As such, they don't really fit the mold of great players playing together during their primes. The '93 Cowboys are the best iteration of the '90s Cowboys according to the system I used; the best Allen team was the '99 Cowboys, and as explained in the comments, isn't far behind the '93 squad.On say, the '95 team, none of the three players you named were in their primes. Tuinei was 35, Newton was 34, Donaldson was 37(!), Allen was just 24. Only Erik Williams at 27 was anywhere near what you would call an OL's prime years.

Wait, in your OP you have Jim Otto at 35 in his "peak." Yet you criticize Newton for being 34?What about the 91 line, these guys are all clearly in their peak, and all were good players:LT Mark Tuinei 31 => 0.90 LG Kevin Gogan 27 => 1.00C Mark Stepnoski 24 => 0.81RG John Gesek 28 => 1.00RT Nate Newton 30 => 0.91 The 93 Cowboys had, I see Tuinei was below his peak, but moreso than Otto?:LT Mark Tuinei 33 => 0.78LG Nate Newton* 32 => 0.88C Mark Stepnoski* 26 => 0.97RG Kevin Gogan 29 => 0.97RT Erik Williams*+ 25 => 0.93

 

[Chase Stuart]

Where are Tuinei, Allen, Newton of the 90's Cowboys?

Tuinei and Newton are a full decade older than Allen. As such, they don't really fit the mold of great players playing together during their primes. The '93 Cowboys are the best iteration of the '90s Cowboys according to the system I used; the best Allen team was the '99 Cowboys, and as explained in the comments, isn't far behind the '93 squad.On say, the '95 team, none of the three players you named were in their primes. Tuinei was 35, Newton was 34, Donaldson was 37(!), Allen was just 24. Only Erik Williams at 27 was anywhere near what you would call an OL's prime years.

Wait, in your OP you have Jim Otto at 35 in his "peak." Yet you criticize Newton for being 34?What about the 91 line, these guys are all clearly in their peak, and all were good players:

LT Mark Tuinei 31 => 0.90

LG Kevin Gogan 27 => 1.00

C Mark Stepnoski 24 => 0.81

RG John Gesek 28 => 1.00

RT Nate Newton 30 => 0.91

The 93 Cowboys had, I see Tuinei was below his peak, but moreso than Otto?:

LT Mark Tuinei 33 => 0.78

LG Nate Newton* 32 => 0.88

C Mark Stepnoski* 26 => 0.97

RG Kevin Gogan 29 => 0.97

RT Erik Williams*+ 25 => 0.93

It's a combination of talent/age. And obviously, one lineman is only 20% of the line.Otto gets more credit at age 35 than just about any other OL ever, but he's still not highly ranked. The reason Otto at 35 tops the list is because he also played with Upshaw (28), Shell (27), Buehler (26) and Brown (12.3). Otto ranked as only the 4th best lineman on his team that year.

The '91 Cowboys team was good. I didn't say it wasn't. But Gesek was far from a great, and Stepnoski was just 24 years old. Not ranking as one of the top 50 OL is hardly akin to saying the OL was far from great. Keep in mind that this list spans every year since 1960. And, perhaps more importantly, this is not a ranking of the best offensive lines of all time. This is a ranking of the teams with the best combination of good, great and excellent linemen, playing at what is close to their peak years.

 

[switz]

But Gesek was far from a great, and Stepnoski was just 24 years old. This is a ranking of the teams with the best combination of good, great and excellent linemen, playing at what is close to their peak years.

I understand a little better what you are trying to accomplish.My next question, is how you ranked a lineman as good, great, or excellent? I didn't see that in the article.

 

[Chase Stuart]

But Gesek was far from a great, and Stepnoski was just 24 years old. This is a ranking of the teams with the best combination of good, great and excellent linemen, playing at what is close to their peak years.

I understand a little better what you are trying to accomplish.My next question, is how you ranked a lineman as good, great, or excellent? I didn't see that in the article.

Check the top of the first post, or the blog link.I'm using Doug's approximate value system -- http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?page_id=518

 

[Christo]

Where are Tuinei, Allen, Newton of the 90's Cowboys?

Tuinei and Newton are a full decade older than Allen. As such, they don't really fit the mold of great players playing together during their primes. The '93 Cowboys are the best iteration of the '90s Cowboys according to the system I used; the best Allen team was the '99 Cowboys, and as explained in the comments, isn't far behind the '93 squad.On say, the '95 team, none of the three players you named were in their primes. Tuinei was 35, Newton was 34, Donaldson was 37(!), Allen was just 24. Only Erik Williams at 27 was anywhere near what you would call an OL's prime years.

Maybe some of the Emmitt haters who like to give all of the credit to his O-line should have this as required reading.

 

[Bri]

Does the Steelers lines not being on there make you want to adjust your formula? Or shed light on something? I wonder if any current lines could be thrown in?

Not really. They had Kolb and Davis on the left side of their line for most of the '70s, and while both were good players, neither ever made a Pro Bowl. Gordon Gravelle and Gerry Mullins were on a couple of the SB teams on the right side of the line, and neither of them ever made a Pro Bowl, either.Those Steelers teams were great, because they had Bradshaw and Harris, and Swann and Stallworth, and a ton of elite talent on the defensive side of the ball. I'm not saying the OL was a weakness, because it wasn't, but I don't see any evidence to indicate that they were an all time great offensive line. They had one all time great player, though.

really good sound explanation Chase. Thank you.I'd be curious where the current Titans fall.Michael Roos was 1st team all pro at one tackle, David Stewart was 2nd team all pro at the other. Mawae in the middle.I think Roos may have had his best year ever last year even if he keeps playing 6 or 7 more. Stewart could have as well. Would a lineman at his peak affect this versus having played a full career? It doesn't seem so, but I just skimmed thru it.Stewart was 2nd team by AP but curiously not pro bowl. (maybe alternate)

 

[thecardiackid]

cle-1958 11.1 Lou Groza (34): 11.7 Jim Ray Smith (26): 14.6 Art Hunter (25): 9.3 Chuck Noll (26): 7.1 Mike McCormack

As a life long Browns fan, not alive back then, is that THE (hated Steeler coach) Chuck Noll???

 

[switz]

Where are Tuinei, Allen, Newton of the 90's Cowboys?

Tuinei and Newton are a full decade older than Allen. As such, they don't really fit the mold of great players playing together during their primes. The '93 Cowboys are the best iteration of the '90s Cowboys according to the system I used; the best Allen team was the '99 Cowboys, and as explained in the comments, isn't far behind the '93 squad.On say, the '95 team, none of the three players you named were in their primes. Tuinei was 35, Newton was 34, Donaldson was 37(!), Allen was just 24. Only Erik Williams at 27 was anywhere near what you would call an OL's prime years.

Maybe some of the Emmitt haters who like to give all of the credit to his O-line should have this as required reading.

Just because they weren't "in their prime" per the prime of an average OL, doesn't mean Emmitt didn't run behind a great OL. I don't hate Emmitt, but anyone who watched the Cowboys in the 90's saw he had truck lanes to run through.

 

[Bri]

Just because they weren't "in their prime" per the prime of an average OL, doesn't mean Emmitt didn't run behind a great OL. I don't hate Emmitt, but anyone who watched the Cowboys in the 90's saw he had truck lanes to run through.

Not so relevant but looking for an excuse to post it I guess(Someone pointed out to me the other day) it's interesting that the division rival Giants and Redskins have had a very good defense a number of times over the last 20-25 years. Emmitt's success was (for the most part) during their down time. Dorsett's may have been too, wasn't sure on him.

 

[Chase Stuart]

cle-1958 11.1 Lou Groza (34): 11.7 Jim Ray Smith (26): 14.6 Art Hunter (25): 9.3 Chuck Noll (26): 7.1 Mike McCormack

As a life long Browns fan, not alive back then, is that THE (hated Steeler coach) Chuck Noll???

Indeed.http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/N/NollCh20.htm

If you click on the link, there's also a link to his playing record.