Noahs Troopers
Footballguy
Spinoff of other thread (about Payton)
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Greatest Football Player of all time poll (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Noahs Troopers
- Start date
Noahs Troopers
Footballguy
No votes for Favre? 
The Scorpion
Footballguy
Jim Brown was not a better all around player that Payton, that is the context of this question, not who is the better runner.
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cracKer
Shawn Culcasi
The Shizzle
Footballguy
OJ Simpson?
Oh wait, I thought it said greatest murderer of all time.
What about Jim Thorpe? Are there any stats on him?
Oh wait, I thought it said greatest murderer of all time.
What about Jim Thorpe? Are there any stats on him?
Brack
Footballguy
I have to go with Sweetness on this as well. There's some things that statistics don't show, he was a fantastic blocker, and a true locker-room leader. Walter was one of the rare players that made those around him better as well. While Barry and Jim Brown (and Gayle Sayers as well) were probably better runners, none brought the whole package like Payton.
I also think that LT2 could very well be brought up in a similar discussion at some point in the near future. He is the second most well-rounded back I've seen.
I also think that LT2 could very well be brought up in a similar discussion at some point in the near future. He is the second most well-rounded back I've seen.
Sure he was.His running was that much better, even being a poor blocker he's still the better overall player. Jim Brown was also the better athlete.Led NFL in rushing eight times, Most in NFL history Led NFL in rushing five consecutive years, Most in NFL history Brown was All-America in both football and lacrosse and a letterman in basketballNFL’s Most Valuable Player four timesOnly person to be inducted into the halls of fame for pro football, college football and lacrosse. 5.2 yards per carryNever missed gameWon the rushing title every year but one when he was in the leagueBrown qualified for the Pro Bowl team in every single season of his career, nine times.
Slider
Footballguy
Jim Brown was probably the best player.
As far as who was the best in every aspect of a football team I would say Jerry Rice. He wasn't the best athlete or anything else but he worked, studied and devoted more to the game than anyone else. He never did anything wrong and was the consummate teammate.
As far as who was the best in every aspect of a football team I would say Jerry Rice. He wasn't the best athlete or anything else but he worked, studied and devoted more to the game than anyone else. He never did anything wrong and was the consummate teammate.
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
Gotta be Brown or Rice. Or maybe brown rice.
I voted for #32.
I voted for #32.
I voted for Jim Brown, but my number two choice would be Richard Butkus.
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Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
All true. But now I wish he would quietly fade away instead of showing up on my Sirius satellite radio all the time. As GREAT as Rice was as a football player, he is ten times worse as a radio commentator.WIFOUT A DOUBT
UMMMMMMMMM
ERRRRRRRRRRRRR
UHHHHHHHHHH
YOU KNOW
YEAH, MAN......
It means it's laughable that he's could be considered the greatest football player of all time.Unless INTs count for more then TDs.
Noahs Troopers
Footballguy
It means "Laughing Out Loud". New to the internet?
On The Rocks
Footballguy
IMHO it is Jim Brown and it isn't even close.
i put him on the Michael Jordan and Wayne Gretzky plateau as the best in their sport. Guys like Payton, and Rice are the top of the next level much much higher than the next level...but Jim Brown stands alone.
i put him on the Michael Jordan and Wayne Gretzky plateau as the best in their sport. Guys like Payton, and Rice are the top of the next level much much higher than the next level...but Jim Brown stands alone.
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Reggie Bush down?
TitusIII
Footballguy
BS, it's very close, competition was much tougher when Payton was playing.
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DoubleG
Footballguy
Most of the above actually counter your argument as all they do is support the fact that Brwon, while a dominant runner AT THE TIME, would likely be nothing more than a very good RB now - and not one that could pass, block, or receive like Payton could. Compare Jim Brown's size relative to the defenses he played against then do the same with Payton. Payton's numbers come very close to Jim Brown's (and are MUCH better in certain categories) - and all against much better/bigger/faster/stronger competition.Sigfawn said:
The Beezer
Footballguy
The greatest baseball player of all time is Babe Ruth because he could contribute in all phases of the game.
Likewise, the greatest football player of all time should be able to contribute in all phases of the same. Thus, these two names should be at the top of the list:
Sammy Baugh - led the league in passing, interceptions, and punting in the same season. A feared weapon throwing, running, kicking, tackling, or in pass coverage, he's probably the best all-around player who's ever played the game.
Don Hutson - not only arguably the #2 WR of all time, he also intercepted 30 passes as a defensive back in his career and scored 193 points by kicking the ball.
Now, if you want to talk about who the best player at his position was, it's Jerry Rice at WR and everyone else is fighting for second.
Likewise, the greatest football player of all time should be able to contribute in all phases of the same. Thus, these two names should be at the top of the list:
Sammy Baugh - led the league in passing, interceptions, and punting in the same season. A feared weapon throwing, running, kicking, tackling, or in pass coverage, he's probably the best all-around player who's ever played the game.
Don Hutson - not only arguably the #2 WR of all time, he also intercepted 30 passes as a defensive back in his career and scored 193 points by kicking the ball.
Now, if you want to talk about who the best player at his position was, it's Jerry Rice at WR and everyone else is fighting for second.
So Browns impressive statistics, hurt his case. I have a hard time following that logic. So the greatest player of all time, has to be born after 1960. Which makes lots of sense? It is possible, the greatest mix of speed, power, balance, was born in the 1940s. In fact, the era he ran in was 100% rush first defense, pass second. He would have 2 spies each play, 8 men in the box, with little fear of the pass. Jim Brown also never had the advantage of todays nutrition, training programs, strength coaches. Today's top highschools have more advanced athletic training then they had in the 1960s. Brown would have been a beast in today's NFL, no question.
Browns numbers kill Payton. Go check Browns first 100 games. It's NOT EVEN CLOSE. Brown has FAR better numbers. Not sure what you've been drinking tonight.Remenber Brown played when they had 12 game, then 14 game seasons.
Code:
+--------------------------+-------------------------+ | Rushing | Receiving |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| 1975 chi | 13 | 196 679 3.5 7 | 33 213 6.5 0 || 1976 chi | 14 | 311 1390 4.5 13 | 15 149 9.9 0 || 1977 chi | 14 | 339 1852 5.5 14 | 27 269 10.0 2 || 1978 chi | 16 | 333 1395 4.2 11 | 50 480 9.6 0 || 1979 chi | 16 | 369 1610 4.4 14 | 31 313 10.1 2 || 1980 chi | 16 | 317 1460 4.6 6 | 46 367 8.0 1 || 1981 chi | 16 | 339 1222 3.6 6 | 41 379 9.2 2 || 1982 chi | 9 | 148 596 4.0 1 | 32 311 9.7 0 || 1983 chi | 16 | 314 1421 4.5 6 | 53 607 11.5 2 || 1984 chi | 16 | 381 1684 4.4 11 | 45 368 8.2 0 || 1985 chi | 16 | 324 1551 4.8 9 | 49 483 9.9 2 || 1986 chi | 16 | 321 1333 4.2 8 | 37 382 10.3 3 || 1987 chi | 12 | 146 533 3.7 4 | 33 217 6.6 1 |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| TOTAL | 190 | 3838 16726 4.4 110 | 492 4538 9.2 15 |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
Code:
+--------------------------+-------------------------+ | Rushing | Receiving |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| 1957 cle | 12 | 202 942 4.7 9 | 16 55 3.4 1 || 1958 cle | 12 | 257 1527 5.9 17 | 16 138 8.6 1 || 1959 cle | 12 | 290 1329 4.6 14 | 24 190 7.9 0 || 1960 cle | 12 | 215 1257 5.8 9 | 19 204 10.7 2 || 1961 cle | 14 | 305 1408 4.6 8 | 46 459 10.0 2 || 1962 cle | 14 | 230 996 4.3 13 | 47 517 11.0 5 || 1963 cle | 14 | 291 1863 6.4 12 | 24 268 11.2 3 || 1964 cle | 14 | 280 1446 5.2 7 | 36 340 9.4 2 || 1965 cle | 14 | 289 1544 5.3 17 | 34 328 9.6 4 |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| TOTAL | 118 | 2359 12312 5.2 106 | 262 2499 9.5 20 |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
BoltzNBrew
Footballguy
Deion Sanders? 
Is this a All Time Best Return Man poll?
He couldn't tackle a crash test dummy.
I never got to watch Jim Brown play live but from what I have seen it would be a toss up between him and Sweetness. Payton was just the complete package at RB.
Is this a All Time Best Return Man poll?
He couldn't tackle a crash test dummy.
I never got to watch Jim Brown play live but from what I have seen it would be a toss up between him and Sweetness. Payton was just the complete package at RB.
Chase Stuart
Footballguy
Outside of the era, Brown's numbers are inflated by a few things:
1) He played on an excellent team
2) He played for one of the best coaches of all time, a guy way ahead of everyone else at that time
3) Other Browns' RBs did pretty well over the course of his career
4) Leroy Kelly was just as good if not better the three years after Brown retired.
It's basically TD for 9 years instead of 4, but with Clinton Portis still dominating after him, along with Mike Anderson and Reuben Droughns. And make Mike Shannahan = Shannahan + Belichick + Martz.
1) He played on an excellent team
2) He played for one of the best coaches of all time, a guy way ahead of everyone else at that time
3) Other Browns' RBs did pretty well over the course of his career
4) Leroy Kelly was just as good if not better the three years after Brown retired.
It's basically TD for 9 years instead of 4, but with Clinton Portis still dominating after him, along with Mike Anderson and Reuben Droughns. And make Mike Shannahan = Shannahan + Belichick + Martz.
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Chase Stuart
Footballguy
I'm a bit surprised by this, in light of our Namath vs. Aikman debate from before. The main point being people in all fields (chess, football) are better today than 25 years ago. There's no doubt that the competition is significantly better today, so a player wouldn't need to stand out nearly as much as Brown did to be considered "better" than him.Maurile Tremblay said:
Yenrub
Footballguy
How did you come to the conclusion that Brown wasn’t a good receiver?His receiving numbers look to be in line with other great backs of his era.He had a career high of 47 receptions in 1962. Career high receptions for other greats of that era are;Horning – 28Taylor – 38L. Moore - 501962 was Cleveland’s highest past attempts per game while Jim Brown was on the roster.They averaged 26 pass attempts per game that year.
The question as I interpret it isn't "Who's the greatest player compared to Ahman Geen," but rather, "Who's the greatest player compared to his peers?"Also: Jim Brown highlights. He wasn't a product of the system.
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Chase Stuart
Footballguy
But if it was much easier to be 3 standard deviations away from your peers in the '50s than the '00s, then I don't think that's a very good measuring device. Blacks -- especially in the NFL (vs. the AFL) -- were slowly integrated into the game. Today, the front seven of most teams is black. The US population has nearly doubled since Brown entered the league. More people are attracted to professional football now than before because of the high salaries, and baseball was much more popular and probably attracted the best athletes. In short, you've got a significantly smaller population, with most of its best athletes not a part of that group, playing a game with small incentives. I know you know all these things, but it serves to remind us how much more competitive the game is today. And since being the best RB isn't about having the best genes, I don't think I'd say Brown's the best RB of all time. His numbers are excellent, but they're certainly not otherworldly. He'd have to average 6.2 YPC or something to be equivalent to averaging 5.2 YPC now. (I'm picking those numbers out of thin air, but they do feel about right).
Black Sunshine
Footballguy
Warren Moon
It's definitely more competitive; I just don't think that changes the answer to the question. There's never been a player who was so head and shoulders above everybody else on the field -- and it wouldn't have mattered if all the best athletes in the world tried out for the NFL. He had a size-speed combo that was unheard of, and he had toughness and balance as well. Nobody wanted to try to tackle him because the tackler always took the worst of the contact. There's nobody like that in the NFL today. LaDainian Tomlinson and Larry Johnson may be the best RBs today, but they are absolutely nothing like Jim Brown was.I never watched Brown play live. I am basing this a bit on his highlights, but more on how the players of his era talked about him. He was a god. There's just no comparison today. No single player puts every other player in the league in such complete awe as Jim Brown did.
Sinrman
Footballguy
I'd love to vote Barry Sanders, as he was my personal favorite of all-time. But even I have to go with Jim Brown. He was a man among boys back then. Unbelieveable stats, even compared to today. When you put up numbers like he did, in 12 and then 14 game seasons..........
I'd go with:
Jim Brown
Walter Payton
Barry Sanders
I'd go with:
Jim Brown
Walter Payton
Barry Sanders
Chase Stuart
Footballguy
But what about the watered down league stuff? Sure Timmy Chang is the all-time leader in NCAA passing yards, but what does that really mean? Troy Davis rushed for 2K twice in college, but that doesn't make him the best college rusher ever. From 1960-1964, Brown rushed for 1321/6970/49. Jim Taylor rushed for 1228/6069/66 over that same time span, missing one more game. Only one other player had 800 carries.Sure, Brown was excellent. But he was in a 14 team league, which might help to explain why there were few other RBs that looked as good. He was probably genetically superior to everyone else in the league, which was a real advantage back then. Today's athletes can overcome that due to huge advances in training and nutrition.I love Jim Brown as much as the next guy, so it's sorta weird to be arguing against him this much. But I sure don't think he distanced himself as much as Ruth or Bonds did in their sports. And ignoring everything I've written so far (about the era), I don't think he distanced himself as much as Rice has, either.
baconstripdivots
Footballguy
I agree with both statements here. LT2 is on track to being in this elite group of players. He is the complete package. If he remains healthy, he will be a lock for the hall and could very well be considered one of the greatest players in professional footbal history. Only time will tell.
LHUCKS
Footballguy
Of course he would have. And any good player from 2030 would dominate today's game. They're going to have awesome legal steroids by then.
Village Idiot
Pokerguy
Wouldn't your point about ther only being 14 teams mean that there were more of the good to great defenders concentrated on fewer teams ?Which would make it harder for Brown to put up numbers than if there were 32 teams like today where the defensive talent is more spread out ?I suppose you can make the point that more of the talented linemen would be more concentrated but, I saw Brown play live and saw and heard what opponents including hall of fame defenders had to say about him.Then your point about training and nutrition.Brown would have had the benefit of the training techniques and nutrition also.Unless Jim Brown was like Babe Ruth and would have trained swilling beer and eating hot dogs this point isn't valid.As driven as Brown was to succeed I can't see how anyone in his era would have benefited significantly more from modern training techniques if any, more than Brown.
AZhardballz
Footballguy
I vote for Elway too....errr wait he didn't even make the friggin list. Anyway 2 votes for em.
Tau837
Footballguy
Posted this in the other thread and thought it might be of interest here as well.
My thoughts on Payton.
He WAS the offense
QBs he played with: Bob Avellini, Bobby Douglass, Gary Huff, Virgil Carter, Vince Evans, Mike Phipps, Jim McMahon, Steve Fuller, Greg Landry, Rusty Lisch, Mike Tomczak, Doug Flutie, Jim Harbaugh. Heck, Payton himself lined up at QB a few times. Basically, Jim McMahon was the best he played with. That's not saying much.
Payton played with 1 Pro Bowl QB in 13 seasons: McMahon in 1985. (And why exactly did McMahon make the Pro Bowl? The Bears passing offense was 22nd in yards and 23rd in TDs... McMahon threw for 2392 yards and 15 TDs.)
Not only did he never play with a 1000 yard receiver, he never even played with a 900 yard receiver. In fact, only 3 times in his 13 year career did any Bears receiver top 800 yards, and only 3 other times did any Bears receiver top 700 yards. And there were no good receiving TEs, either. It should come as no surprise that no Bears WR or TE made the Pro Bowl during Payton's career.
To reinforce this, consider Chicago's pass yardage ranks during Payton's career: 23 (of 26), 28 (of 28), 21, 26, 26, 28, 28, 22, 17, 26, 22, 24, 14. They finished in the bottom quarter of the league 10 times in Payton's career.
Payton himself led the Bears in receptions 6 times, and had the second highest total on the team 5 other times.
In his last few years, his offensive lines were pretty good, but for most of his career it wasn't. Two of Payton's linemen made the Pro Bowl a total of 5 times in his 13 seasons, all in his final 3 seasons: Jim Covert (1985, 1986), and Jay Hilgenberg (1985, 1986, 1987).
Compared to Jim Brown
Brown is the only back I would consider comparing to Payton, and I admit I didn't see him play, so that may bias my opinion. That said, consider that Brown joined a dynasty.
1950-56 (pre-Brown): 63-20-1 (.759), 6 postseason appearances in 7 years, 6 championship games, 3 championships
1957-1965 (with Brown): 79-34-5 (.699), 5 postseason appearances in 9 years, 3 championship games, 1 championship
Now compare that to Payton and the Bears:
1968-1974 (pre-Payton): 31-66-1 (.320), no postseason appearances
1975-1987 (with Payton): 111-83 (.572), 6 postseason appearances, 1 championship
How about a supporting cast comparison? Payton's is addressed above. It seems very hard to support the notion that the Browns were not already a very, very good team when Brown joined them, which naturally implies that he was surrounded by a talented group of teammates. Remember, there was no free agency (or draft?) at that time, so it would be very hard for me to see how the talent level of a team that appeared in 6 championship games in the 7 years prior to Brown's rookie season had suddenly dropped to average or worse. This is supported by the number of Pro Bowlers Brown played with:
- Browns QBs made the Pro Bowl 4 times in Brown's 9 seasons: Milt Plum (1960, 1961), Frank Ryan (1964, 1965).
- Browns WRs made the Pro Bowl 5 times in Brown's 9 seasons: Ray Renfro (1957, 1960), Bobby Mitchell (1960), Paul Warfield (1964), and Gary Collins (1965).
- Brown played with the following Pro Bowl offensive linemen: Art Hunter (1959), Mike McCormack (1957, 1960, 1961, 1962), Jim Smith (1958, 1959, 1960, 1961, 1962), John Morrow (1961, 1963), #### Schafrath (1963), Gene Hickerson (1965), John Wooten (1965). That's 7 different linemen for a total of 15 times in 9 seasons, and only one season without a Pro Bowler--1964. In 6 of his seasons, Brown had 2 or more Pro Bowlers on the line.
To be fair, there were fewer teams when Brown played, so it stands to reason he would have played with more Pro Bowlers. Still, the difference is too big to be accounted for simply by that IMO.
The fewer teams also made it easier for Brown to lead the NFL in rushing, to win awards, etc.--less competition. Brown played when there were only 12-14 teams. In Payton's first season, there were 26 teams; for the rest of his career there were 28. As one example, Brown was 1st team All NFL 8 times, Payton 7 times. It is also true that as many as 4 RBs were selected to 1st team All NFL in Brown's career. Only 3 times was he selected as 1 of only 2 RBs chosen. Meanwhile, Payton made it 4 times as 1 of 2 RBs selected, and from a much bigger RB pool. So I am more impressed with Payton's 7 times, given the number of RBs he competed with was at least twice as many as Brown.
Also, BlueOnion posted this in an older thread:
I certainly can't verify whether these are valid points, but I found them interesting.Brown was obviously an all time great player. I just don't see evidence that Brown was better than Payton. Again, I admit that could be because I never saw him play with my own eyes, while I did see Payton play often.
Conclusion
Payton's accomplishments are more impressive than Jim Brown's (or any other RB's), IMO.
Despyzer
Lousy Attention Whore
You can go ahead and vote for Favre.... just as laughable.
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