looks like they just don't caredeclare the two who sent things in co-winners
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.
Greatest MLB Baseball Draft Team Summary Thread (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter timschochet
- Start date
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
we should rate each other (except our own franchises - which win, of course) for an aggragate score separate from the judges. maybe that'll bring em back. ive always been a master rater.
timschochet
Footballguy
Nope. If I don't get complete numbers by the end of this month, I simply will use career averages, and that will significantly favor those of you who provided numbers.I have gone through the original draft and gotten several numbers from there, but these are incomplete. I will use what has been given me.wikkidpissah said:
end of the month?i thought you said early on that you'd wait a week and then judge the thing.
timschochet
Footballguy
What I wrote is that I would judge within one week after getting the team summaries. But if I don't get the team summaries?Horvy said:end of the month?i thought you said early on that you'd wait a week and then judge the thing.
Koya
Footballguy
What's the rush - unless you have Wagner and he blows more freakin' saves that is.What I wrote is that I would judge within one week after getting the team summaries. But if I don't get the team summaries?Horvy said:end of the month?i thought you said early on that you'd wait a week and then judge the thing.
Tremendous Upside
Footballguy
Sorry guys...
been meaning to get you our pitching info, but it's been crazy recently with work...
Will get it up tomorrow
been meaning to get you our pitching info, but it's been crazy recently with work...
Will get it up tomorrow
not that it's a real rush.....it's that we were asked to meet a deadline and some of us put aside other things to actually respect that deadline.we penalize the prompt.no big deal. i already purchased my FBG subscription anyway.What's the rush - unless you have Wagner and he blows more freakin' saves that is.What I wrote is that I would judge within one week after getting the team summaries. But if I don't get the team summaries?Horvy said:end of the month?i thought you said early on that you'd wait a week and then judge the thing.
timschochet
Footballguy
Well, no one seems interested in giving me their numbers. Very disappointing.
I will keep my word; after July 1st, I'll simply use career averages for any numbers I don't have. Then I will award the winner. But I'm not going to spend the time running a playoff for people who don't really care; sorry.
I will keep my word; after July 1st, I'll simply use career averages for any numbers I don't have. Then I will award the winner. But I'm not going to spend the time running a playoff for people who don't really care; sorry.
derek245583
Footballguy
BummerI was really looking forward to how I did. I know someone gave me a pretty awful grade, but wanted to see others thoughts.
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
Didn't give you enough credit for Waner and Simmons but Delgado is not a good 1Bman in an all-time draft even with the best 7 seasons. Really do like your staff though.
oso diablo
Footballguy
i'll have my rankings out by 7/1. been distracted by the WIS draft
PIK95
Footballguy
Pik95
Manager Casey Stengel
Starting Pitcher #1 Randy Johnson (95-97-99-00-01-02-04)
Starting Pitcher #2 Joe Wood (09-10-11-12-13-14-15)
Starting Pitcher #3 Fergie Jenkins (67-68-69-70-71-74-78)
Starting Pitcher #4 Bob Lemon (48-49-50-51-52-54-56)
Starting Pitcher #5 Lon Warneke (32-33-34-35-40-41-42)
Middle Reliever Dan Plesac (86-87-88-89-92-98-03)
Setup Pitcher Rob Nen (94-95-96-98-00-01-02)
Closer Billy Wagner (99-01-02-03-04-05-06)
Catcher Mike Piazza
1st Base Lou Gehrig
2nd Base Ryne Sandberg
Shortstop Ernie Banks
3rd Base Home Run Baker
Left Field Minnie Minoso
Center Field Jim Edmonds
Right Field Manny Ramirez
Utility Infielder Maury Wills
Utility Outfielder Elmer Flick
Designated Hitter Jeff Bagwell
I started the pitchers. More to come tommorrow hopefully.
Manager Casey Stengel
Starting Pitcher #1 Randy Johnson (95-97-99-00-01-02-04)
Starting Pitcher #2 Joe Wood (09-10-11-12-13-14-15)
Starting Pitcher #3 Fergie Jenkins (67-68-69-70-71-74-78)
Starting Pitcher #4 Bob Lemon (48-49-50-51-52-54-56)
Starting Pitcher #5 Lon Warneke (32-33-34-35-40-41-42)
Middle Reliever Dan Plesac (86-87-88-89-92-98-03)
Setup Pitcher Rob Nen (94-95-96-98-00-01-02)
Closer Billy Wagner (99-01-02-03-04-05-06)
Catcher Mike Piazza
1st Base Lou Gehrig
2nd Base Ryne Sandberg
Shortstop Ernie Banks
3rd Base Home Run Baker
Left Field Minnie Minoso
Center Field Jim Edmonds
Right Field Manny Ramirez
Utility Infielder Maury Wills
Utility Outfielder Elmer Flick
Designated Hitter Jeff Bagwell
I started the pitchers. More to come tommorrow hopefully.
timschochet
Footballguy
The clock is ticking, guys. I keep reading "more to come". Pik95 has yet to give me his lineup and years for batters. Tremendous Upside and Koya have yet to do the same for pitchers. I don't think anyone who has given me a summary is complete; even Wikkidpissah forgot to give years for some players, and Horvy gave 8 years instead of 7 in some cases, etc.
I have painstakingly gone through the original thread and taken out lists of 7 years whenever I could. DougB provided it for nearly every player. But that is the extent of my effort. Many people here don't seem to care about this anymore, so I don't know why I should either, but I do. After Monday, though, I will just use averages for any information I do not have. I'm not going to send any personal messages to anyone; if you are missing information, send it in. My friend and I will begin rating teams on Tuesday with what I've been given and will have our ratings within a week after that. If you provide stats after Monday, too late.
I have painstakingly gone through the original thread and taken out lists of 7 years whenever I could. DougB provided it for nearly every player. But that is the extent of my effort. Many people here don't seem to care about this anymore, so I don't know why I should either, but I do. After Monday, though, I will just use averages for any information I do not have. I'm not going to send any personal messages to anyone; if you are missing information, send it in. My friend and I will begin rating teams on Tuesday with what I've been given and will have our ratings within a week after that. If you provide stats after Monday, too late.
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
i gave u the 7 yrs except on Radatz & Conigliaro - cuz they didnt have 7 yrs. i didnt post the stat lines for my closers (cuz, due to the evolution of the closer role, they are statistically irrelevant) but i listed the seasons for which i wanted them to be considered. please advisetimschochet said:
rikishiboy
Footballguy
When can we expect results?
timschochet
Footballguy
very shortlyrikishiboy said:
oso diablo
Footballguy
oso rankings:
1. Horvy
2. Avoiding Injuries
3. Hoos 1st
4. pik95
5. TU/Koya
6. Derek
7. SCBF
8. zow
9. larryboy
10. cincykid
Honorable Mention: wikkidpissah for his great stories and entertaining commentary
Teams ranked #4 and #5 are very close. Teams ranked 6-8 are very close to each other. Teams ranked 9 and 10 are essentially in a tie.
Top 5 - Non-Pitchers
1. Horvy
2. Avoiding Injuries
3. SCBF
4. pik95
5. TU/Koya
Top 5 - Pitching
1. larryboy
2. derek
3. horvy
4. hoos 1st
5. dougb
Methodology
Ranking Players
Since this was an draft of the best players all-time, I built a ranking system that combines both career and peak value measures. For career value, i used the Runs Above Replacement (RAR) statistic from Baseball Prospectus (BP), the positional and overall rankings from Bill James (in his Historical Abstract, with adjustments for active players), career OPS+ or ERA+ (with bonus points for being on the MLB leaderboards for season ERA, Wins, or WHIP), and the 4 HOF metrics (Black Ink test, Gray Ink test, HOF Standards, and HOF Monitor). For peak value, i used the 3rd best season by Win Shares, and the top 7 seasons by WARP3 (another BP stat, which incorporates hitting, fielding and pitching, in comparison to players at that same position). Some of the stats were baselined (in VBD fashion) for position, so that catchers aren't competing head-to-head against, say, 1B in OPS.
Some stats got more weighting than others. For example, the 7-year WARP3, since the commish declared that he was looking at 7-yr peak.
+/- adjustments: there is a slight positive boost for being lefthanded, especially for pitchers. there is a positive adjustment for players who lost time to war service or racial segregation.
Managers: i did not consider managers at all, because (a) i don't think there's a ton of separation among them, and (b) the controversy of the draft-ending free-for-all. In any event, my #1 team (Horvy) probably also has the #1 manager in John McGraw.
Ranking teams
Each team was scored and ranked on the various metrics in 4 ways: (a) your top 9 batters, (b) bench batters, © top 6 pitchers, and (d) bench pitchers. Once again, some metrics were weighted more heavily than others, and the weightings vary between hitters and pitchers. Bench-value was weighted at only 20% of starter value. Hitters (which includes defense) were weighted at 63%, and pitchers at 37%.
1. Horvy
2. Avoiding Injuries
3. Hoos 1st
4. pik95
5. TU/Koya
6. Derek
7. SCBF
8. zow
9. larryboy
10. cincykid
Honorable Mention: wikkidpissah for his great stories and entertaining commentary
Teams ranked #4 and #5 are very close. Teams ranked 6-8 are very close to each other. Teams ranked 9 and 10 are essentially in a tie.
Top 5 - Non-Pitchers
1. Horvy
2. Avoiding Injuries
3. SCBF
4. pik95
5. TU/Koya
Top 5 - Pitching
1. larryboy
2. derek
3. horvy
4. hoos 1st
5. dougb
Methodology
Ranking Players
Since this was an draft of the best players all-time, I built a ranking system that combines both career and peak value measures. For career value, i used the Runs Above Replacement (RAR) statistic from Baseball Prospectus (BP), the positional and overall rankings from Bill James (in his Historical Abstract, with adjustments for active players), career OPS+ or ERA+ (with bonus points for being on the MLB leaderboards for season ERA, Wins, or WHIP), and the 4 HOF metrics (Black Ink test, Gray Ink test, HOF Standards, and HOF Monitor). For peak value, i used the 3rd best season by Win Shares, and the top 7 seasons by WARP3 (another BP stat, which incorporates hitting, fielding and pitching, in comparison to players at that same position). Some of the stats were baselined (in VBD fashion) for position, so that catchers aren't competing head-to-head against, say, 1B in OPS.
Some stats got more weighting than others. For example, the 7-year WARP3, since the commish declared that he was looking at 7-yr peak.
+/- adjustments: there is a slight positive boost for being lefthanded, especially for pitchers. there is a positive adjustment for players who lost time to war service or racial segregation.
Managers: i did not consider managers at all, because (a) i don't think there's a ton of separation among them, and (b) the controversy of the draft-ending free-for-all. In any event, my #1 team (Horvy) probably also has the #1 manager in John McGraw.
Ranking teams
Each team was scored and ranked on the various metrics in 4 ways: (a) your top 9 batters, (b) bench batters, © top 6 pitchers, and (d) bench pitchers. Once again, some metrics were weighted more heavily than others, and the weightings vary between hitters and pitchers. Bench-value was weighted at only 20% of starter value. Hitters (which includes defense) were weighted at 63%, and pitchers at 37%.
oso diablo
Footballguy
Thoughts on My Selected Champion: Horvy
1. Ty Cobb in round 1 is always a solid choice. I would have gone with Honus here, but Cobb would have been my 2nd choice.
2. Mike Schmidt - 3B is a surprisingly tough position to fill, and this is the best one. Was best batter available
3. Jackie Robinson - great peripheral value, though i had Lajoie a tad higher
4. Yogi Berra - Bill James' #1 catcher. I have Bench higher. Another solid pick
5. Tony Gwynn - about where i had him ranked, but better values still on the board
6. Robin Roberts - best pitcher available
7. Dazzy Vance - ok, but another round where i would have gone SS
8. Hal Newhouser - some of his value is overinflated by pitching during the war years. I have Schilling and Blyleven (and a couple others) ranked higher at this point.
9. Willie Stargell - still no SS
10. Hoyt Wilhelm - in the top 5 RP of alltime
11. Don Mattingly - hey, you need a SS
12/13. Dave Winfield and Joe Medwick - getting value on almost every pick, but where's your #$%! shortstop!
14. Eddie Cicotte - i need to add a negative adjustment for World Series cheaters
15. Alan Trammell - this is the pick that sealed the draft for you, snagging a top 10 shortstop in the 15th round. Nerves of steel to wait this long, but you pulled it off.
16-20. all nice picks. only one i didn't like was Orosco, but my thoughts on low-inning relievers are well chronicled in the draft thread, and every team had a least one of these.
just a real nice, solid draft from start to finish.
p.s. I did dock you for not putting Jackie at leadoff, despite my hints. Jackie, Gwynn, Cobb, Schmidt - almost a perfect top of the order
1. Ty Cobb in round 1 is always a solid choice. I would have gone with Honus here, but Cobb would have been my 2nd choice.
2. Mike Schmidt - 3B is a surprisingly tough position to fill, and this is the best one. Was best batter available
3. Jackie Robinson - great peripheral value, though i had Lajoie a tad higher
4. Yogi Berra - Bill James' #1 catcher. I have Bench higher. Another solid pick
5. Tony Gwynn - about where i had him ranked, but better values still on the board
6. Robin Roberts - best pitcher available
7. Dazzy Vance - ok, but another round where i would have gone SS
8. Hal Newhouser - some of his value is overinflated by pitching during the war years. I have Schilling and Blyleven (and a couple others) ranked higher at this point.
9. Willie Stargell - still no SS
10. Hoyt Wilhelm - in the top 5 RP of alltime
11. Don Mattingly - hey, you need a SS
12/13. Dave Winfield and Joe Medwick - getting value on almost every pick, but where's your #$%! shortstop!
14. Eddie Cicotte - i need to add a negative adjustment for World Series cheaters
15. Alan Trammell - this is the pick that sealed the draft for you, snagging a top 10 shortstop in the 15th round. Nerves of steel to wait this long, but you pulled it off.
16-20. all nice picks. only one i didn't like was Orosco, but my thoughts on low-inning relievers are well chronicled in the draft thread, and every team had a least one of these.
just a real nice, solid draft from start to finish.
p.s. I did dock you for not putting Jackie at leadoff, despite my hints. Jackie, Gwynn, Cobb, Schmidt - almost a perfect top of the order
timschochet
Footballguy
thanks to Oso for his rankings. They are FAR removed from mine, but I promised to average them in before choosing a final winner (also Doctor Detroit; I'll give him another few days before giving final results.)
Now on to mine. As I explained when I started, I am no baseball expert. In order to do this right, I collaborated with a friend of mine named Jim who is a baseball expert and likes to crunch numbers. As we went through this, I explained what I considered important, and he did the rest. I provided him all 7 year figures I received, along with any commentary. Jim is not a contributor to this website. Here is what he wrote, verbatim:
Here are the results, and comments, from the baseball draft. I have tried to keep subjective evaluation to a minimum, though cross-relating statistics for different eras (and over 100 years) is a substantial task.
Pitching (38% of the total score) has, as stated, been ranked on ERA, and WHIP, with a third category to help factor down "era" impact. (I can't totally ignore "dead ball" impact.) Though this exercise was never designed to represent an entire team roster, the value of the "fifth starting pitcher" has been SLIGHTLY diminished (@ 15%), as during the course of a season of play, the fifth starter could be (thanks to off-days) expected to be occasionally dropped from the rotation.
My biggest problem is with the "three relievers" parameter (long reliever, set-up man, and closer) is that it suggests that they would all be AVAILABLE every day... unrealistic, but that is the premise I've been given to use. Long-relief means occasional LONG relief. Those who chose a starter for this role, or a pitcher who actually specialized in "long relief," have covered that role wisely. Those who have chosen a "closer" (some who have averaged just one inning per game over a career) have not.
Evaluating "fielding" was probably the biggest challenge. Error numbers (and thus "fielding percentage") have greatly changed over 100 years (along with the development of gloves larger than "driving gloves"), thus requiring the inclusion of a factor of fielding percentage versus the era's AVERAGE (by position). The use of Gold Glove numbers has been GREATLY minimized. Half of the players never had that opportunity (other factors were included to help "equalize" older-era players), and, like Wikkidpissah, I believe that Gold Gloves are predominantly a popularity contest anyway. (I remember Don Money setting an ALL-TIME fielding percentage record at third base -- I believe .989 in 154 games -- and yet NOT winning that year's Gold Glove. Brooks Robinson won his fifteenth consecutive GG that season. Now Brooks Robinson was unquestionably the best fielder I ever saw, regardless of position... but that year Don Money should have had something to put on his mantle.)
Hitting, 41% of the total score, has been (as advised) rated on OPS+ ... period. Those who drafted using that fact have been statistically rewarded. The most obvious example of understanding the parameters (before drafting players) is Doug B. Everyone here has a FINE lineup of GREAT baseballers, and I wasn't overly impressed with Doug's hitters... until compiling OPS+ numbers. Paying attention usually pays off!
As 2% of the total score was based on your "lineup" strength, those of you who did not bother to submit a lineup obviously got no points there. I created a lineup for each of those who didn't provide their own, since a small part of the scoring, base running, factored this in. "Base running" (3% of the total scoring) included steals, stolen base PERCENTAGE, speed, and a small subjective factor.
Perhaps the biggest missed opportunity for all of you was to choose each player's seven "best" years to determine his value. Not providing Tim with these seven years (no accompanying "statistics" were required) meant that his CAREER average was used by default in each category. This is HUGE for most players. Those who were conscientious (and provided this information) were accordingly rewarded. Please consider this factor in seeing "who ranked where" in the results!
Now, onto the results!!!
Sixteenth on the list was Shake Zula, with a score of 55.7. His team finished a respectable fourth in fielding, and fifth in base running. Like many of you, Shake chose his two "utility" players (you were all instructed that utility players would ONLY impact FIELDING as late inning replacements) on their batting prowess. No help there. Ironically, "number one" starter Nolan Ryan compiled the LOWEST number of ALL his five starters (though this did not cost him any points).
Tied four fourteenth (57.5 points) were Usual 21, and Zow.
Usual 21 "got it" with the utility players, and received points accordingly. Unfortunately his "team fielding" score was BY FAR the lowest recorded, and wasn't compensated for by great hitting. He showed an awareness of different eras by choosing some fine "older" players, something not everyone did.
Zow, interestingly used Mel Ott as his THIRD baseman (Ott did dabble at third, and was not "dreadful"). Very creative, and payed off offensively (if not defensively). His set up man, Keith Foulke is definitely stronger than his closer, Randy Myers... and his score (weighted to the "closer") would have been improved by switching the two.
Thirteenth was Greco (60.4), who showed some creativity by putting an additional pitcher (rather than a utility infielder) on his roster. Unfortunately, as indicated, scoring is not impacted by a sixth starter, and would have been, if ever so slightly, by a U.I.. An interesting choice as utility outfielder was Jose Canseco... not known for his defensive prowess, but a man who DID "use his head" in the outfield. (No additional points.)
Twelfth on the list was Cincy Kid (63.2), who showed a good knowledge of all eras in the selection of his players. His choice of Babe Ruth, though hardly a surprise, garnered him the greatest impact of any player. Too bad he chose Brooks Robinson as his third baseman... totally ignoring Don Money. (JUST KIDDING!)
Eleventh was Avoiding Injuries (64.5). Again, a fine mix of players from different eras. His cleanup hitter, the great Ted Williams, WOULD HAVE earned him the highest value of anyone in this draft... if he would have just provided the "seven years." I believe that Mike Marshall (a "more innings" guy) would have been better put at "long relief" than his choice of Ron Perranoski. One of his more interesting choices was "DHing" Andre Dawson (who picked up EIGHT Gold Gloves in the outfield), while Ted Williams (who killed nearly as many balls in the field as he did at the plate) got an outfield spot! (Okay, so YOU tell Ted he's DHing!)
Tenth was Hoos First (65.1), who obviously isn't the answer to his own question. His good knowledge of players would have been better served by providing a lineup as well as the "seven years" for more than just Albert Pujols. "Hoos" took the top spot by grabbing the incomparable Joe McCarthy as his manager.
Ninth place is held down by Derek 245583. His score is 70.2 (not 245583). Derek's boys grabbed the second-highest fielding rating, even without help from utility outfielder Al Oliver. Again, a good cross-era knowledge of players. The only starter in this draft that I wasn't previously aware of is his choice of third baseman Bob Elliot. Nice pick!
Breaking into the "first division" of finishers are Larry Boy 44, and Horvy... tied for seventh place with identical scores of 73.6.
Larry Boy assembled the top "base running" team (tied with his "brother" Rikishi Boy), and by a pretty healthy margin. A real-life batting order would be better served with **** Allen and Dale Murphy batting in mid-lineup, rather than Derek Jeter and Ivan Rodriguez. Frank White and Caesar Cedeno are fine defensive replacements (though his starters are fine defensively at those spots). Switching closer Rollie Fingers and set-up John Wetteland would have gained a few points, important in a "tie breaker."
Horvy posted the best fielding team of any competitor. Congrats. DH Dave Winfield was overlooked as an outfielder, though room was made in the outfield for the exceedingly sub-par Willie Stargell, which would have made Horvy's defense a runaway! Ed Cicotte was a nice "sleeper" pick as a fourth starter, the "high-point" man on his staff.
Rikishi Boy copped the sixth spot with 74.4 points. As mentioned, his base-running total tied for the top spot. Catcher Joe Torre is in the unique position of having to go up against himself, as he also MANAGED the Cincy Kid's team! Utility players Richie Ashburn and Del Pratt are great choices, though Pratt would hardly improve Roberto Alomar's defense at second base.
Fifth is Pik 95, with 75.6 points. His closer, Billy Wagner, posted the best rating of all the closers chosen. Remarkable, and a heady pick. Manny Ramirez in the outfield is an offensive player (...pun intended), and probably could have used more defensive help in the late innings than Elmer Flick, a Hall-of-Fame batsman. By taking the time to submit seven years for five of his starters, as well as a line-up, Pik would have surely surpassed his significant success, and entered the rarified air of the cream of the crop.
Now for that rarified air. Wikkidpissah holds down the fourth spot with 77.2 points. Though he strongly leans to a modern-day roster, the Pissah has put together a fine team. Al Kaline is a creative choice in centerfield (where he filled in admirably), but Vlad Guerrero (a born DH) and Lou Brock could have used more defensive aid than (utility outfielder) Tony Conigliaro could provide. Although it gets him NO points, I'd like to give a major-league tip of the cap to Wikkidpissah, who was "first in" with all his information, showing a great love for the game in the process. Considering the increasingly questionable character of today's ballplayers, baseball needs more Pissahs!
In third place is SoCal Bronco Fan with 77.3 points. This guy knows more than football. His picks of Addie Joss and Johann Santana paid off well, and really span baseball eras. Dennis Eckersley has "close second" marks in a draft of wonderful closers. Hard to imagine how much higher SoCal would have scored had he bothered to provide a lineup, or "years" for 2/3 of his team!
Drum roll please... second place goes to... Tremendous Upside/Koya, with 78.9 points. "Tremendous" has assembled easily the best batting team. In doing so he was willing to sacrifice base running, with a collection of players who too often have to move "station to station." Looks like a good trade-off. Also, an interesting defense... incredible "up the middle" (where most of the "points" are available), and atrocious everywhere else. Not to beat any more dead horses, but too bad he chose not to provide "years" for his fine pitching staff...
That, by elimination, makes the winner Doug B, with a whopping 85.4 points amassed! Here's a guy who really understood the parameters to be used in judging, and built a team keeping that in mind. When I first saw his roster, my though was that he probably didn't have enough batting to win, despite his amazing pitching staff. Well, these guys "OPS+"ed their way to the top... no weak links. Doug showed a great knowledge of baseball eras, and used his "utility choices" wisely. The killer was that pitching staff... O.M.G., what a collection! This guy pulled down the TWO top pitchers in the draft (Walter Johnson AND Pedro Martinez). Gentlemen we have a winner!!!
Thanks to ALL for competing. Hope you each got as much enjoyment as I did... with a lot less work.
Now on to mine. As I explained when I started, I am no baseball expert. In order to do this right, I collaborated with a friend of mine named Jim who is a baseball expert and likes to crunch numbers. As we went through this, I explained what I considered important, and he did the rest. I provided him all 7 year figures I received, along with any commentary. Jim is not a contributor to this website. Here is what he wrote, verbatim:
Here are the results, and comments, from the baseball draft. I have tried to keep subjective evaluation to a minimum, though cross-relating statistics for different eras (and over 100 years) is a substantial task.
Pitching (38% of the total score) has, as stated, been ranked on ERA, and WHIP, with a third category to help factor down "era" impact. (I can't totally ignore "dead ball" impact.) Though this exercise was never designed to represent an entire team roster, the value of the "fifth starting pitcher" has been SLIGHTLY diminished (@ 15%), as during the course of a season of play, the fifth starter could be (thanks to off-days) expected to be occasionally dropped from the rotation.
My biggest problem is with the "three relievers" parameter (long reliever, set-up man, and closer) is that it suggests that they would all be AVAILABLE every day... unrealistic, but that is the premise I've been given to use. Long-relief means occasional LONG relief. Those who chose a starter for this role, or a pitcher who actually specialized in "long relief," have covered that role wisely. Those who have chosen a "closer" (some who have averaged just one inning per game over a career) have not.
Evaluating "fielding" was probably the biggest challenge. Error numbers (and thus "fielding percentage") have greatly changed over 100 years (along with the development of gloves larger than "driving gloves"), thus requiring the inclusion of a factor of fielding percentage versus the era's AVERAGE (by position). The use of Gold Glove numbers has been GREATLY minimized. Half of the players never had that opportunity (other factors were included to help "equalize" older-era players), and, like Wikkidpissah, I believe that Gold Gloves are predominantly a popularity contest anyway. (I remember Don Money setting an ALL-TIME fielding percentage record at third base -- I believe .989 in 154 games -- and yet NOT winning that year's Gold Glove. Brooks Robinson won his fifteenth consecutive GG that season. Now Brooks Robinson was unquestionably the best fielder I ever saw, regardless of position... but that year Don Money should have had something to put on his mantle.)
Hitting, 41% of the total score, has been (as advised) rated on OPS+ ... period. Those who drafted using that fact have been statistically rewarded. The most obvious example of understanding the parameters (before drafting players) is Doug B. Everyone here has a FINE lineup of GREAT baseballers, and I wasn't overly impressed with Doug's hitters... until compiling OPS+ numbers. Paying attention usually pays off!
As 2% of the total score was based on your "lineup" strength, those of you who did not bother to submit a lineup obviously got no points there. I created a lineup for each of those who didn't provide their own, since a small part of the scoring, base running, factored this in. "Base running" (3% of the total scoring) included steals, stolen base PERCENTAGE, speed, and a small subjective factor.
Perhaps the biggest missed opportunity for all of you was to choose each player's seven "best" years to determine his value. Not providing Tim with these seven years (no accompanying "statistics" were required) meant that his CAREER average was used by default in each category. This is HUGE for most players. Those who were conscientious (and provided this information) were accordingly rewarded. Please consider this factor in seeing "who ranked where" in the results!
Now, onto the results!!!
Sixteenth on the list was Shake Zula, with a score of 55.7. His team finished a respectable fourth in fielding, and fifth in base running. Like many of you, Shake chose his two "utility" players (you were all instructed that utility players would ONLY impact FIELDING as late inning replacements) on their batting prowess. No help there. Ironically, "number one" starter Nolan Ryan compiled the LOWEST number of ALL his five starters (though this did not cost him any points).
Tied four fourteenth (57.5 points) were Usual 21, and Zow.
Usual 21 "got it" with the utility players, and received points accordingly. Unfortunately his "team fielding" score was BY FAR the lowest recorded, and wasn't compensated for by great hitting. He showed an awareness of different eras by choosing some fine "older" players, something not everyone did.
Zow, interestingly used Mel Ott as his THIRD baseman (Ott did dabble at third, and was not "dreadful"). Very creative, and payed off offensively (if not defensively). His set up man, Keith Foulke is definitely stronger than his closer, Randy Myers... and his score (weighted to the "closer") would have been improved by switching the two.
Thirteenth was Greco (60.4), who showed some creativity by putting an additional pitcher (rather than a utility infielder) on his roster. Unfortunately, as indicated, scoring is not impacted by a sixth starter, and would have been, if ever so slightly, by a U.I.. An interesting choice as utility outfielder was Jose Canseco... not known for his defensive prowess, but a man who DID "use his head" in the outfield. (No additional points.)
Twelfth on the list was Cincy Kid (63.2), who showed a good knowledge of all eras in the selection of his players. His choice of Babe Ruth, though hardly a surprise, garnered him the greatest impact of any player. Too bad he chose Brooks Robinson as his third baseman... totally ignoring Don Money. (JUST KIDDING!)
Eleventh was Avoiding Injuries (64.5). Again, a fine mix of players from different eras. His cleanup hitter, the great Ted Williams, WOULD HAVE earned him the highest value of anyone in this draft... if he would have just provided the "seven years." I believe that Mike Marshall (a "more innings" guy) would have been better put at "long relief" than his choice of Ron Perranoski. One of his more interesting choices was "DHing" Andre Dawson (who picked up EIGHT Gold Gloves in the outfield), while Ted Williams (who killed nearly as many balls in the field as he did at the plate) got an outfield spot! (Okay, so YOU tell Ted he's DHing!)
Tenth was Hoos First (65.1), who obviously isn't the answer to his own question. His good knowledge of players would have been better served by providing a lineup as well as the "seven years" for more than just Albert Pujols. "Hoos" took the top spot by grabbing the incomparable Joe McCarthy as his manager.
Ninth place is held down by Derek 245583. His score is 70.2 (not 245583). Derek's boys grabbed the second-highest fielding rating, even without help from utility outfielder Al Oliver. Again, a good cross-era knowledge of players. The only starter in this draft that I wasn't previously aware of is his choice of third baseman Bob Elliot. Nice pick!
Breaking into the "first division" of finishers are Larry Boy 44, and Horvy... tied for seventh place with identical scores of 73.6.
Larry Boy assembled the top "base running" team (tied with his "brother" Rikishi Boy), and by a pretty healthy margin. A real-life batting order would be better served with **** Allen and Dale Murphy batting in mid-lineup, rather than Derek Jeter and Ivan Rodriguez. Frank White and Caesar Cedeno are fine defensive replacements (though his starters are fine defensively at those spots). Switching closer Rollie Fingers and set-up John Wetteland would have gained a few points, important in a "tie breaker."
Horvy posted the best fielding team of any competitor. Congrats. DH Dave Winfield was overlooked as an outfielder, though room was made in the outfield for the exceedingly sub-par Willie Stargell, which would have made Horvy's defense a runaway! Ed Cicotte was a nice "sleeper" pick as a fourth starter, the "high-point" man on his staff.
Rikishi Boy copped the sixth spot with 74.4 points. As mentioned, his base-running total tied for the top spot. Catcher Joe Torre is in the unique position of having to go up against himself, as he also MANAGED the Cincy Kid's team! Utility players Richie Ashburn and Del Pratt are great choices, though Pratt would hardly improve Roberto Alomar's defense at second base.
Fifth is Pik 95, with 75.6 points. His closer, Billy Wagner, posted the best rating of all the closers chosen. Remarkable, and a heady pick. Manny Ramirez in the outfield is an offensive player (...pun intended), and probably could have used more defensive help in the late innings than Elmer Flick, a Hall-of-Fame batsman. By taking the time to submit seven years for five of his starters, as well as a line-up, Pik would have surely surpassed his significant success, and entered the rarified air of the cream of the crop.
Now for that rarified air. Wikkidpissah holds down the fourth spot with 77.2 points. Though he strongly leans to a modern-day roster, the Pissah has put together a fine team. Al Kaline is a creative choice in centerfield (where he filled in admirably), but Vlad Guerrero (a born DH) and Lou Brock could have used more defensive aid than (utility outfielder) Tony Conigliaro could provide. Although it gets him NO points, I'd like to give a major-league tip of the cap to Wikkidpissah, who was "first in" with all his information, showing a great love for the game in the process. Considering the increasingly questionable character of today's ballplayers, baseball needs more Pissahs!
In third place is SoCal Bronco Fan with 77.3 points. This guy knows more than football. His picks of Addie Joss and Johann Santana paid off well, and really span baseball eras. Dennis Eckersley has "close second" marks in a draft of wonderful closers. Hard to imagine how much higher SoCal would have scored had he bothered to provide a lineup, or "years" for 2/3 of his team!
Drum roll please... second place goes to... Tremendous Upside/Koya, with 78.9 points. "Tremendous" has assembled easily the best batting team. In doing so he was willing to sacrifice base running, with a collection of players who too often have to move "station to station." Looks like a good trade-off. Also, an interesting defense... incredible "up the middle" (where most of the "points" are available), and atrocious everywhere else. Not to beat any more dead horses, but too bad he chose not to provide "years" for his fine pitching staff...
That, by elimination, makes the winner Doug B, with a whopping 85.4 points amassed! Here's a guy who really understood the parameters to be used in judging, and built a team keeping that in mind. When I first saw his roster, my though was that he probably didn't have enough batting to win, despite his amazing pitching staff. Well, these guys "OPS+"ed their way to the top... no weak links. Doug showed a great knowledge of baseball eras, and used his "utility choices" wisely. The killer was that pitching staff... O.M.G., what a collection! This guy pulled down the TWO top pitchers in the draft (Walter Johnson AND Pedro Martinez). Gentlemen we have a winner!!!
Thanks to ALL for competing. Hope you each got as much enjoyment as I did... with a lot less work.
Last edited by a moderator:
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
Cicncy Kid Overall grade: 8.6
Hoos First Overall score: 7.0
Wikkidpissah Overall score: 9.1
Avoiding Injuries Overall Score: 9.0
Pik95 Overall score 6.7
Greco Overall score: 8.9
Rikishiboy Overall score: 6.8
LarryBoy 44 Overall score: 8.8
Doug B Overall score: 9.1
Derek245583 Overall score: 6
Horvy Overall score: 9.0
Shake Zula Overall score: 5
Tremendous Upside/Koya Overall score 9.7
Usual 21 Overall score: 8.8
SoCalBroncoFan Overall score: 8.7
Zow Overall score: 8.4
Rank:
1. Koya/TU
2. Doug B
3. Wikkidpissah
4. Horvy
5. Avoiding Injuries
6. Greco
7. LB 44
8. Usual 21
9. SCBF
10. Cincy Kid
Hoos First Overall score: 7.0
Wikkidpissah Overall score: 9.1
Avoiding Injuries Overall Score: 9.0
Pik95 Overall score 6.7
Greco Overall score: 8.9
Rikishiboy Overall score: 6.8
LarryBoy 44 Overall score: 8.8
Doug B Overall score: 9.1
Derek245583 Overall score: 6
Horvy Overall score: 9.0
Shake Zula Overall score: 5
Tremendous Upside/Koya Overall score 9.7
Usual 21 Overall score: 8.8
SoCalBroncoFan Overall score: 8.7
Zow Overall score: 8.4
Rank:
1. Koya/TU
2. Doug B
3. Wikkidpissah
4. Horvy
5. Avoiding Injuries
6. Greco
7. LB 44
8. Usual 21
9. SCBF
10. Cincy Kid
Last edited by a moderator:
timschochet
Footballguy
Doctor Detroit and I agreed that TU/Koya and DougB were the top two, though we disagreed on the order (it really comes down to whether or not you favor pitching over hitting.) But since Oso Diablo did not have DougB in his top ten (?!), the winner based on averages is Tremendous Upside and Koya!!!
Congratulations, Tremendous Upside and Koya! Since I am not running a playoff (not enough people are interested) I will give you each the prize of a years membership to FBG. I will be setting that up shortly.
Congratulations, Tremendous Upside and Koya! Since I am not running a playoff (not enough people are interested) I will give you each the prize of a years membership to FBG. I will be setting that up shortly.
