Greatest QB Season Ever (2 Viewers)

[GregR_2]

There is no pattern that tells me that Dan Marino's career was defined by 3 seasons in which the USFL had taken players away. His top year was during the USFL, yes His only other season amongst his top ones comes in 4th or 7th depending on if we stick with season totals, or rate him based on how he was playing and not discount for injuries.As I said to Anarchy's post, maybe there is an argument that Marino hit his 1984 other-worldly levels partially due to the USFL. But to suggest those years were the only elite years of his career is way off.

For the benefit of everyone else in the thread, here is the actual data using per game averages to adjust for injury:Marino's first four seasons (1983-86): 274 passing yards and 2.4 TD'sRemainder of Marino's career: 246 passing yards and 1.5 TD's

If we want to test whether Marino's elite years were only due to the USFL, I don't understand thinking anything meaningful will be shown by taking the average of his 3 USFL years AND his most prolific non-USFL year and comparing them to his averages over the rest of his career, which would obviously include the end of his career when any QB's skills decline due to age.So for the benefit of everyone else in the thread, here is the actual data of the first 3 years of Marino's career, the only ones played while the USFL was in existence. Followed by the next 3 years of his career when the USFL players were back on NFL teams.1983-1985: 279 yards, 2.4 TDs1986-1988: 282 yards, 2.2 TDs.Same number of years, prorated by games started to remove injury and that he didn't start until partway through the season his first USFL year. No significant blip to suggestion the USFL years were his only elite ones.

 

[pizzatyme]

This Packers game tonight is a good example of how little impact playing outdoors in the cold and snow has on an offense.

Besides, mud, high wind, and driving rain, there are really no excuses.

I don't recall many Patriots games in those conditions.

 

[twitch]

This Packers game tonight is a good example of how little impact playing outdoors in the cold and snow has on an offense. Besides, mud, high wind, and driving rain, there are really no excuses. I don't recall many Patriots games in those conditions.

This game is being played in snow with no wind, something NE hasnt experienced once this year. Theyve played in rain, theyve played in wind. Not snow with no wind. Nice try. Give it a rest.

 

[H.K.]

There is no pattern that tells me that Dan Marino's career was defined by 3 seasons in which the USFL had taken players away. His top year was during the USFL, yes His only other season amongst his top ones comes in 4th or 7th depending on if we stick with season totals, or rate him based on how he was playing and not discount for injuries.As I said to Anarchy's post, maybe there is an argument that Marino hit his 1984 other-worldly levels partially due to the USFL. But to suggest those years were the only elite years of his career is way off.

For the benefit of everyone else in the thread, here is the actual data using per game averages to adjust for injury:Marino's first four seasons (1983-86): 274 passing yards and 2.4 TD'sRemainder of Marino's career: 246 passing yards and 1.5 TD's

If we want to test whether Marino's elite years were only due to the USFL, I don't understand thinking anything meaningful will be shown by taking the average of his 3 USFL years AND his most prolific non-USFL year and comparing them to his averages over the rest of his career, which would obviously include the end of his career when any QB's skills decline due to age.So for the benefit of everyone else in the thread, here is the actual data of the first 3 years of Marino's career, the only ones played while the USFL was in existence. Followed by the next 3 years of his career when the USFL players were back on NFL teams.1983-1985: 279 yards, 2.4 TDs1986-1988: 282 yards, 2.2 TDs.Same number of years, prorated by games started to remove injury and that he didn't start until partway through the season his first USFL year. No significant blip to suggestion the USFL years were his only elite ones.

Nice job including his rookie year, carefully selecting a time frame specifically to make your argument look credible, and finally proving my point that he did not get better as he entered his prime.Hopefully you saw Favre today because that is how the QB position is supposed to be played. Incredible what Brett has done in the awful conditions in GB while Marino had the luxury of playing his career in Miami.

 

[Tau837]

I have seen this reference to a Pats fan determining that Manning played 20 more minutes than Brady a few times now, and wanted to check it for myself. I looked at this based on time of possession with each QB in the game. All of this is from ESPN play by play game logs.

Manning 2004:

Game 1 - Manning played the entire game and the Colts had 31:41 in TOP.

Game 2 - Manning played the entire game and the Colts had 25:05 in TOP.

Game 3 - Manning played the entire game and the Colts had 28:52 in TOP.

Game 4 - Manning played the entire game and the Colts had 24:27 in TOP.

Game 5 - Manning played the entire game and the Colts had 35:01 in TOP.

Game 6 - Manning played the entire game and the Colts had 25:26 in TOP.

Game 7 - Manning played the entire game and the Colts had 22:27 in TOP.

Game 8 - Manning played the entire game and the Colts had 34:12 in TOP.

Game 9 - Manning played the entire game and the Colts had 24:19 in TOP.

Game 10 - The Colts had 35:37 in TOP. Sorgi definitely played the last Colts possession, for 1:37. ESPN play by play does not indicate which QB played for the second to last possession, which took 7:15. So Manning played either 34:00 or 26:45.

Game 11 - The Colts had 31:12 in TOP. Sorgi played the last 3 Colts possessions, for a total of 6:15. So Manning played 24:57.

Game 12 - The Colts had 26:55 in TOP. Sorgi played the last 2 Colts possessions, for a total of 4:43. So Manning played 22:12.

Game 13 - Manning played the entire game and the Colts had 32:19 in TOP.

Game 14 - Manning played the entire game and the Colts had 28:38 in TOP.

Game 15 - Manning played the entire game and the Colts had 31:34 in TOP.

Game 16 - Manning played only the first series, which lasted 0:55.

Total - Manning played for either 418:50 or 426:05 in TOP.

Brady 2007:

Game 1 - The Pats had 33:09 in TOP. Gutierrez played the final possession, for 0:17. So Brady played 32:52.

Game 2 - The Pats had 35:46 in TOP. Gutierrez played the final two plays, for 1:18. So Brady played 34:28.

Game 3 - The Pats had 34:19 in TOP. Brady did not play the last 2 possessions, for 4:13. So Brady played 30:06.

Game 4 - The Pats had 37:24 in TOP. Cassell played the final possession, for 2:38. So Brady played 34:46.

Game 5 - Brady played the entire game and the Pats had 32:27 in TOP.

Game 6 - Brady played the entire game and the Pats had 38:15 in TOP.

Game 7 - The Pats had 24:55 in TOP. Cassell played one possession for 1:05, and Gutierrez played one possession for 2:42. So Brady played 21:08.

Game 8 - The Pats had 37:49 in TOP. Cassell and Gutierrez played a total of 4:53. So Brady played 32:56.

Game 9 - Brady played the entire game and the Pats had 29:44 in TOP.

Game 10 - The Pats had 34:54 in TOP. Cassell played the final possession, for 7:08. So Brady played 27:46.

Game 11 - Brady played the entire game and the Pats had 32:11 in TOP.

Game 12 - Brady played the entire game and the Pats had 27:06 in TOP.

Game 13 - Brady played the entire game and the Pats had 25:17 in TOP.

Game 14 - Brady played the entire game and the Pats had 33:37 in TOP.

Game 15 - Brady played the entire game and the Pats had 28:16 in TOP.

Game 16 - Brady played the entire game and the Pats had 36:18 in TOP.

Total - Brady played for 497:13 in TOP.

It's possible these numbers are off slightly, because I'm not sure if the TOP I counted for possessions of the backup QBs consistently counted punts, etc. But the gap is large enough that I think it is clear that Manning most certainly did not play 20 more minutes than Brady.

More than likely, rather than TOP, the person who made the claim that Manning played more looked instead at either minutes remaining when a new QB entered the game or minutes remaining that last time Manning/Brady left the game (the difference being whether or not the intervening defensive possession was counted or not).

Regardless, it is clear that Brady was on the field for more minutes than Manning. And we also know Brady threw a lot more passes than Manning. So if one is trying to gauge the opportunities each had, there is no way to argue the fact that Brady had a lot more opportunities.

 

[pizzatyme]

This Packers game tonight is a good example of how little impact playing outdoors in the cold and snow has on an offense. Besides, mud, high wind, and driving rain, there are really no excuses. I don't recall many Patriots games in those conditions.

This game is being played in snow with no wind, something NE hasnt experienced once this year. Theyve played in rain, theyve played in wind. Not snow with no wind. Nice try. Give it a rest.

my comment was in general. If you can't deal with conversation, please put me on ignore. TIA

 

[twitch]

This Packers game tonight is a good example of how little impact playing outdoors in the cold and snow has on an offense. Besides, mud, high wind, and driving rain, there are really no excuses. I don't recall many Patriots games in those conditions.

This game is being played in snow with no wind, something NE hasnt experienced once this year. Theyve played in rain, theyve played in wind. Not snow with no wind. Nice try. Give it a rest.

my comment was in general. If you can't deal with conversation, please put me on ignore. TIA

Why does a 'general question' or comment then need to mention 'Patriots games'? And I think the ignore function is intended to shield twits. I may not agree with many of your takes, but youre certainly not a candidate for ignoreland. Good luck tomorrow.

 

[pizzatyme]

This Packers game tonight is a good example of how little impact playing outdoors in the cold and snow has on an offense. Besides, mud, high wind, and driving rain, there are really no excuses. I don't recall many Patriots games in those conditions.

This game is being played in snow with no wind, something NE hasnt experienced once this year. Theyve played in rain, theyve played in wind. Not snow with no wind. Nice try. Give it a rest.

my comment was in general. If you can't deal with conversation, please put me on ignore. TIA

Why does a 'general question' or comment then need to mention 'Patriots games'? And I think the ignore function is intended to shield twits. I may not agree with many of your takes, but youre certainly not a candidate for ignoreland. Good luck tomorrow.

Much of the latest conversation that I read was pertaining to careers of the 3 QBs mentioned in this thread. I read somewhere that QB X should be higher because they played outdoors, and QB Y should be lowered because they played in ideal conditions. My point was that most of the time all 3 QBs play in conditions that don't hamper their ability to put up great offensive production. I specifically mentioned cold and snow. I can now see how you might have taken my comments as pertaining to this season only. And yes, then my comments would hold no merit since that is not what Brady had to endure in his bad weather games this year.I guess we had a failure to communicate. I disagree with the notion that a big reason for Manning's gaudy stats are due to playing in a dome. I'm quite comfortable in thinking that if he played outdoors he would have similar results. I just get tired of people making the argument that Brady's numbers would be equal to Manning's except for the fact he plays outdoors in the Northeast.That is where my saying I don't remember many Patriots games where Brady had to endure: high wind, mud, or driving rain. I'm sure there are instances, but not to the point that would create such a large disparity between their offensive stats.Good to know I'm not ignorable in your eyes.Good game tonight. The Colts should win tomorrow, I predict 35-21.We'll see.

 

[Road Warriors]

This Packers game tonight is a good example of how little impact playing outdoors in the cold and snow has on an offense.

Besides, mud, high wind, and driving rain, there are really no excuses.

I don't recall many Patriots games in those conditions.

This game is being played in snow with no wind, something NE hasnt experienced once this year. Theyve played in rain, theyve played in wind. Not snow with no wind. Nice try. Give it a rest.

my comment was in general. If you can't deal with conversation, please put me on ignore. TIA

Why does a 'general question' or comment then need to mention 'Patriots games'? And I think the ignore function is intended to shield twits. I may not agree with many of your takes, but youre certainly not a candidate for ignoreland. Good luck tomorrow.

Much of the latest conversation that I read was pertaining to careers of the 3 QBs mentioned in this thread. I read somewhere that QB X should be higher because they played outdoors, and QB Y should be lowered because they played in ideal conditions. My point was that most of the time all 3 QBs play in conditions that don't hamper their ability to put up great offensive production. I specifically mentioned cold and snow.

I can now see how you might have taken my comments as pertaining to this season only. And yes, then my comments would hold no merit since that is not what Brady had to endure in his bad weather games this year.

I guess we had a failure to communicate.

I disagree with the notion that a big reason for Manning's gaudy stats are due to playing in a dome. I'm quite comfortable in thinking that if he played outdoors he would have similar results. I just get tired of people making the argument that Brady's numbers would be equal to Manning's except for the fact he plays outdoors in the Northeast.

That is where my saying I don't remember many Patriots games where Brady had to endure: high wind, mud, or driving rain. I'm sure there are instances, but not to the point that would create such a large disparity between their offensive stats.

Good to know I'm not ignorable in your eyes.

Good game tonight. The Colts should win tomorrow, I predict 35-21.

We'll see.

I've seen several posts ( on several threads ) that talk about Brady's numbers being "more impressive" than Manning's, due to the conditions in which Brady has played. Now, if you're arguing against this thought in the context of career numbers, then I'll fall on your side. Brady's numbers vs. Manning's numbers over the past 7 years are not disparate because of weather, its because of skill position talent disparity.Now, if the context of the discussion is just this season, then it becomes a little more relevant. This season, Brady, for the first time, had receiving options on par with what Manning has had for his entire career. In the one year that Brady has had comparable weapons, he broke Manning's record for # of TDs in a season, and posted a 2nd best ( to Manning ) QB rating. Of course, the 2 worst games of Brady's season were against a fired up BAL team in 40+ MPH winds , and an heated rival game against NYJ, also in the face of 40 MPH winds.

Brady's numbers, this season ( ie. the only one with comprable receiving options ) were not only equal to Manning's, but better. And that includes 2 of the 16 games played in weather that is extremely difficult to throw the ball.

So, if the weather argument is used to compare career numbers, I'm on your side. If, for some reason, you're trying to imply weather didn't impact this current season ( the one where Brady outpaced Manning's earlier record ), I'll have to disagree.

 

[pizzatyme]

This Packers game tonight is a good example of how little impact playing outdoors in the cold and snow has on an offense.

Besides, mud, high wind, and driving rain, there are really no excuses.

I don't recall many Patriots games in those conditions.

This game is being played in snow with no wind, something NE hasnt experienced once this year. Theyve played in rain, theyve played in wind. Not snow with no wind. Nice try. Give it a rest.

my comment was in general. If you can't deal with conversation, please put me on ignore. TIA

Why does a 'general question' or comment then need to mention 'Patriots games'? And I think the ignore function is intended to shield twits. I may not agree with many of your takes, but youre certainly not a candidate for ignoreland. Good luck tomorrow.

Much of the latest conversation that I read was pertaining to careers of the 3 QBs mentioned in this thread. I read somewhere that QB X should be higher because they played outdoors, and QB Y should be lowered because they played in ideal conditions. My point was that most of the time all 3 QBs play in conditions that don't hamper their ability to put up great offensive production. I specifically mentioned cold and snow.

I can now see how you might have taken my comments as pertaining to this season only. And yes, then my comments would hold no merit since that is not what Brady had to endure in his bad weather games this year.

I guess we had a failure to communicate.

I disagree with the notion that a big reason for Manning's gaudy stats are due to playing in a dome. I'm quite comfortable in thinking that if he played outdoors he would have similar results. I just get tired of people making the argument that Brady's numbers would be equal to Manning's except for the fact he plays outdoors in the Northeast.

That is where my saying I don't remember many Patriots games where Brady had to endure: high wind, mud, or driving rain. I'm sure there are instances, but not to the point that would create such a large disparity between their offensive stats.

Good to know I'm not ignorable in your eyes.

Good game tonight. The Colts should win tomorrow, I predict 35-21.

We'll see.

I've seen several posts ( on several threads ) that talk about Brady's numbers being "more impressive" than Manning's, due to the conditions in which Brady has played. Now, if you're arguing against this thought in the context of career numbers, then I'll fall on your side. Brady's numbers vs. Manning's numbers over the past 7 years are not disparate because of weather, its because of skill position talent disparity.Now, if the context of the discussion is just this season, then it becomes a little more relevant. This season, Brady, for the first time, had receiving options on par with what Manning has had for his entire career. In the one year that Brady has had comparable weapons, he broke Manning's record for # of TDs in a season, and posted a 2nd best ( to Manning ) QB rating. Of course, the 2 worst games of Brady's season were against a fired up BAL team in 40+ MPH winds , and an heated rival game against NYJ, also in the face of 40 MPH winds.

Brady's numbers, this season ( ie. the only one with comprable receiving options ) were not only equal to Manning's, but better. And that includes 2 of the 16 games played in weather that is extremely difficult to throw the ball.

So, if the weather argument is used to compare career numbers, I'm on your side. If, for some reason, you're trying to imply weather didn't impact this current season ( the one where Brady outpaced Manning's earlier record ), I'll have to disagree.

Correct, career numbers.

 

[Road Warriors]

I've seen several posts ( on several threads ) that talk about Brady's numbers being "more impressive" than Manning's, due to the conditions in which Brady has played. Now, if you're arguing against this thought in the context of career numbers, then I'll fall on your side. Brady's numbers vs. Manning's numbers over the past 7 years are not disparate because of weather, its because of skill position talent disparity.Now, if the context of the discussion is just this season, then it becomes a little more relevant. This season, Brady, for the first time, had receiving options on par with what Manning has had for his entire career. In the one year that Brady has had comparable weapons, he broke Manning's record for # of TDs in a season, and posted a 2nd best ( to Manning ) QB rating. Of course, the 2 worst games of Brady's season were against a fired up BAL team in 40+ MPH winds , and an heated rival game against NYJ, also in the face of 40 MPH winds. Brady's numbers, this season ( ie. the only one with comprable receiving options ) were not only equal to Manning's, but better. And that includes 2 of the 16 games played in weather that is extremely difficult to throw the ball. So, if the weather argument is used to compare career numbers, I'm on your side. If, for some reason, you're trying to imply weather didn't impact this current season ( the one where Brady outpaced Manning's earlier record ), I'll have to disagree.

Correct, career numbers.

So you agree that the difference in career numbers are tied to associated talent?

 

[pizzatyme]

I've seen several posts ( on several threads ) that talk about Brady's numbers being "more impressive" than Manning's, due to the conditions in which Brady has played. Now, if you're arguing against this thought in the context of career numbers, then I'll fall on your side. Brady's numbers vs. Manning's numbers over the past 7 years are not disparate because of weather, its because of skill position talent disparity.Now, if the context of the discussion is just this season, then it becomes a little more relevant. This season, Brady, for the first time, had receiving options on par with what Manning has had for his entire career. In the one year that Brady has had comparable weapons, he broke Manning's record for # of TDs in a season, and posted a 2nd best ( to Manning ) QB rating. Of course, the 2 worst games of Brady's season were against a fired up BAL team in 40+ MPH winds , and an heated rival game against NYJ, also in the face of 40 MPH winds. Brady's numbers, this season ( ie. the only one with comprable receiving options ) were not only equal to Manning's, but better. And that includes 2 of the 16 games played in weather that is extremely difficult to throw the ball. So, if the weather argument is used to compare career numbers, I'm on your side. If, for some reason, you're trying to imply weather didn't impact this current season ( the one where Brady outpaced Manning's earlier record ), I'll have to disagree.

Correct, career numbers.

So you agree that the difference in career numbers are tied to associated talent?

If you'll agree that Super Bowl rings are also tied to associated talent on defense.

 

[Road Warriors]

I've seen several posts ( on several threads ) that talk about Brady's numbers being "more impressive" than Manning's, due to the conditions in which Brady has played. Now, if you're arguing against this thought in the context of career numbers, then I'll fall on your side. Brady's numbers vs. Manning's numbers over the past 7 years are not disparate because of weather, its because of skill position talent disparity.Now, if the context of the discussion is just this season, then it becomes a little more relevant. This season, Brady, for the first time, had receiving options on par with what Manning has had for his entire career. In the one year that Brady has had comparable weapons, he broke Manning's record for # of TDs in a season, and posted a 2nd best ( to Manning ) QB rating. Of course, the 2 worst games of Brady's season were against a fired up BAL team in 40+ MPH winds , and an heated rival game against NYJ, also in the face of 40 MPH winds. Brady's numbers, this season ( ie. the only one with comprable receiving options ) were not only equal to Manning's, but better. And that includes 2 of the 16 games played in weather that is extremely difficult to throw the ball. So, if the weather argument is used to compare career numbers, I'm on your side. If, for some reason, you're trying to imply weather didn't impact this current season ( the one where Brady outpaced Manning's earlier record ), I'll have to disagree.

Correct, career numbers.

So you agree that the difference in career numbers are tied to associated talent?

If you'll agree that Super Bowl rings are also tied to associated talent on defense.

Always have ( possibly in the minority as a Pats fan )These are the 2 best QBs of our generation, and by the end of their careers, could be the 2 best evah!!! Good luck tomorrow, and it it plays out, it'll be EPIC next week.

 

[DrJ]

I would not vote for Marino based on the USFL factor. At the time, the USFL had made a push to draft players and pilfer players from NFL rosters, thus weakening defenses in the NFL. Remember, Eric Dickerson set the all time single season rushing record the same year Marino set the passing yardage mark.Even players like Neil Lomax (4600+ passing yards) and Dave Krieg (32 passing TD) had career years that season. Roy Green led the league in receiving yards and had only one or two other decent seasons. It was an odd year all around.

Look at the season before as well. In 1983, Lynn Dickey threw for 4458 yards and 32 TD's with the highest completion % of his career. Bill Kenney had 4348 yards! Career high of 2536 outside of that season.

 

[Liquid Tension]

As I've already shown, Marino peaked after four years and turned into a compiler. HK

HK, not only are you always wrong (Which is why you lose every sig bet), but this above comment shows an absolute lack of logic and understanding of the game of football. You haven't shown anything to back your comments and in fact these type of comments are the reason why you tick everyone off with hyperbole based on NOTHING.It is obvious you either never watched Miami games or you (as many people have said) don't have any clue about the game of football. Let me apologize to to the mods for this comment that is towards a person, but his type of trash ruins the shark pool because it adds NOTHING to a real discussion and we end up debating whether Marino's years after his first 4 were just "compiling" stats???

If you look at the next 10 years of Marino's career (which is being said he compiled stats after the 1st 4), Marino made the Pro Bowl 5 of those 10 years. This is a pretty good feat considering wins are always a part of the discussion in making the pro bowl and Marino's was cursed with some very poor defenses. Averaging Yards allowed and PPG to come up with defensive ranks, his teams averaged 18th out of usually 28 (The last year or 2 had 30 teams) How many QB's that we ever discuss as being good had to put up with that? None? One at most?

In those 10 years Marino AVERAGED 4052 yards per year on a per game basis (He averaged 253.3 yards per game x 16 = 4052 yards) and averaged 26 TD's with 16 picks during the same time frame. Considering it was tougher time to throw than now those were untouched numbers during those TEN years where he was just compiling stats according to one person Why don't you show me someone who compiled those numbers during those 10 years (especially when these were not his 4 best years according to one person)?

I will give you two examples...One is Jim Kelly, who's career perfectly blends in to these 10 years as his career is basically these 10 years. Elway, the stats help make look better as Elway's career was the same time frame as Marino's, but Elway's 1st 4 years were not his best, but here goes anyway.

Remember these 10 years are not copunting Marino's great 1st 4 years and only those years "he was just a stat compiler"

1987-1996

Marino 253 YPG or 4052 per year with 26 TD's and 16 Int's

Kelly 221 YPG or 3541 per year with 24 TD's and 18 int's

Elway 227 YPG or 3635 per year with 20 TD's and 15 int's

Yeah, Marino was just compiling stats

BTW, I mentioned the defenses that these guys played with

Marino's defense averaged 18th for these 10 years, Elway's 14th and Kelly's 13th. Remember as an average even a few spots is pretty big because that would imply that every year they were a little better. 4 spots is VERY large.

I would like to look at some more as I thought possibly Dan Fouts would be another good comp, but I have a crew of 10+ coming over to watch the playoffs and anyone out there can see HK doesn't have a clue.

Peace...

 

[NE_REVIVAL]

This Packers game tonight is a good example of how little impact playing outdoors in the cold and snow has on an offense.

Besides, mud, high wind, and driving rain, there are really no excuses.

I don't recall many Patriots games in those conditions.

This game is being played in snow with no wind, something NE hasnt experienced once this year. Theyve played in rain, theyve played in wind. Not snow with no wind. Nice try. Give it a rest.

my comment was in general. If you can't deal with conversation, please put me on ignore. TIA

Why does a 'general question' or comment then need to mention 'Patriots games'? And I think the ignore function is intended to shield twits. I may not agree with many of your takes, but youre certainly not a candidate for ignoreland. Good luck tomorrow.

Much of the latest conversation that I read was pertaining to careers of the 3 QBs mentioned in this thread. I read somewhere that QB X should be higher because they played outdoors, and QB Y should be lowered because they played in ideal conditions. My point was that most of the time all 3 QBs play in conditions that don't hamper their ability to put up great offensive production. I specifically mentioned cold and snow.

I can now see how you might have taken my comments as pertaining to this season only. And yes, then my comments would hold no merit since that is not what Brady had to endure in his bad weather games this year.

I guess we had a failure to communicate.

I disagree with the notion that a big reason for Manning's gaudy stats are due to playing in a dome. I'm quite comfortable in thinking that if he played outdoors he would have similar results. I just get tired of people making the argument that Brady's numbers would be equal to Manning's except for the fact he plays outdoors in the Northeast.

That is where my saying I don't remember many Patriots games where Brady had to endure: high wind, mud, or driving rain. I'm sure there are instances, but not to the point that would create such a large disparity between their offensive stats.

Good to know I'm not ignorable in your eyes.

Good game tonight. The Colts should win tomorrow, I predict 35-21.

We'll see.

I've seen several posts ( on several threads ) that talk about Brady's numbers being "more impressive" than Manning's, due to the conditions in which Brady has played. Now, if you're arguing against this thought in the context of career numbers, then I'll fall on your side. Brady's numbers vs. Manning's numbers over the past 7 years are not disparate because of weather, its because of skill position talent disparity.Now, if the context of the discussion is just this season, then it becomes a little more relevant. This season, Brady, for the first time, had receiving options on par with what Manning has had for his entire career. In the one year that Brady has had comparable weapons, he broke Manning's record for # of TDs in a season, and posted a 2nd best ( to Manning ) QB rating. Of course, the 2 worst games of Brady's season were against a fired up BAL team in 40+ MPH winds , and an heated rival game against NYJ, also in the face of 40 MPH winds.

Brady's numbers, this season ( ie. the only one with comprable receiving options ) were not only equal to Manning's, but better. And that includes 2 of the 16 games played in weather that is extremely difficult to throw the ball.

So, if the weather argument is used to compare career numbers, I'm on your side. If, for some reason, you're trying to imply weather didn't impact this current season ( the one where Brady outpaced Manning's earlier record ), I'll have to disagree.

Correct, career numbers.

I certainly may have missed it, but I don't remember seeing anyone making this arguement? I know that I and others have talked about the weather factor in the context of comparing Mannings TD record season to Bradys. And I don't believe you have ever acknowledged that playing outdoors in poor passing condtions (BAL & NE games) put Brady at a disadvantage. You want to pretend that those factors don't matter and all that matters is Manning sat out most of the last game and Brady didn't so therefore, in your opinion Manning was more impressive. IMO, if you are going to put qualifiers (Manning sat out blah, blah) on the TD record you ought to at least acknowledge how much easier it was for Manning in that he didn't have to play 2 games (or any) in poor passing conditions.You said: "I just get tired of people making the argument that Brady's numbers would be equal to Manning's except for the fact he plays outdoors in the Northeast." And now you clarified that by saying you were talking about career numbers; can you show some of these posts that you are tired of reading? I honestly don't remember seeing any?

However, I will say this; there is little doubt in my mind that if Manning played outdoors in the Northeast rather than a dome, his career #s would be lower accross the board (except Ints of course ). The only debate would be how much lower; would you agree with that?

 

[David Yudkin]

Some statistical arguments cannot be decided based on pure stats. For example,

Peyton Manning has averaged 260 yards passing per game over his career and Marc Bulger has averaged 259. Marino clocks in at 253 with Favre at 240 and Brady at 235. Has ANYONE ever argued that Bulger is in the argument for best QB ever?

 

[H.K.]

As I've already shown, Marino peaked after four years and turned into a compiler. HK

HK, not only are you always wrong (Which is why you lose every sig bet), but this above comment shows an absolute lack of logic and understanding of the game of football. You haven't shown anything to back your comments and in fact these type of comments are the reason why you tick everyone off with hyperbole based on NOTHING.It is obvious you either never watched Miami games or you (as many people have said) don't have any clue about the game of football. Let me apologize to to the mods for this comment that is towards a person, but his type of trash ruins the shark pool because it adds NOTHING to a real discussion and we end up debating whether Marino's years after his first 4 were just "compiling" stats???

If you look at the next 10 years of Marino's career (which is being said he compiled stats after the 1st 4), Marino made the Pro Bowl 5 of those 10 years. This is a pretty good feat considering wins are always a part of the discussion in making the pro bowl and Marino's was cursed with some very poor defenses. Averaging Yards allowed and PPG to come up with defensive ranks, his teams averaged 18th out of usually 28 (The last year or 2 had 30 teams) How many QB's that we ever discuss as being good had to put up with that? None? One at most?

In those 10 years Marino AVERAGED 4052 yards per year on a per game basis (He averaged 253.3 yards per game x 16 = 4052 yards) and averaged 26 TD's with 16 picks during the same time frame. Considering it was tougher time to throw than now those were untouched numbers during those TEN years where he was just compiling stats according to one person Why don't you show me someone who compiled those numbers during those 10 years (especially when these were not his 4 best years according to one person)?

I will give you two examples...One is Jim Kelly, who's career perfectly blends in to these 10 years as his career is basically these 10 years. Elway, the stats help make look better as Elway's career was the same time frame as Marino's, but Elway's 1st 4 years were not his best, but here goes anyway.

Remember these 10 years are not copunting Marino's great 1st 4 years and only those years "he was just a stat compiler"

1987-1996

Marino 253 YPG or 4052 per year with 26 TD's and 16 Int's

Kelly 221 YPG or 3541 per year with 24 TD's and 18 int's

Elway 227 YPG or 3635 per year with 20 TD's and 15 int's

Yeah, Marino was just compiling stats

BTW, I mentioned the defenses that these guys played with

Marino's defense averaged 18th for these 10 years, Elway's 14th and Kelly's 13th. Remember as an average even a few spots is pretty big because that would imply that every year they were a little better. 4 spots is VERY large.

I would like to look at some more as I thought possibly Dan Fouts would be another good comp, but I have a crew of 10+ coming over to watch the playoffs and anyone out there can see HK doesn't have a clue.

Peace...

Stick to facts, please.Marino had the #1 defense for points allowed twice in his career, blaming his failures to compete in the post season are not the fault of his defense.

Also, extrapolating per game numbers and multiplying by 16 games to get averages is inaccurate considering he did not play those actual games. Durability matters, which is why Marino will always take a back seat to guys like Favre and Manning in GOAT discussions.

Intelligence is one other area worth discussing, look at these wonderlic scores:

Brady 33

Manning 28

Favre 22

Marino 14

All of these factors are why Marino is not worthy of consideration in any "all-time" conversations for career or single season discussion for QB's:

1) Immobility (0.29 career ypc)

2) Ability to handle pressure - His playoff performances in losses he had 15 TDs & 19 INTs with at least 2 INT in 9 of 10 games.

3) Intelligence (14!)

Impressive passing stats? Yes, but look at his attempts compared to his peers, and look at how his numbers dipped in the post USFL era and it sheds light on why he is a paper tiger.

Conclusion: Marino simply does not stack up favorably when he is evaluated logically and rationally compared to the true greats.

 

[Liquid Tension]

As I've already shown, Marino peaked after four years and turned into a compiler. HK

HK, not only are you always wrong (Which is why you lose every sig bet), but this above comment shows an absolute lack of logic and understanding of the game of football. You haven't shown anything to back your comments and in fact these type of comments are the reason why you tick everyone off with hyperbole based on NOTHING.It is obvious you either never watched Miami games or you (as many people have said) don't have any clue about the game of football. Let me apologize to to the mods for this comment that is towards a person, but his type of trash ruins the shark pool because it adds NOTHING to a real discussion and we end up debating whether Marino's years after his first 4 were just "compiling" stats???

If you look at the next 10 years of Marino's career (which is being said he compiled stats after the 1st 4), Marino made the Pro Bowl 5 of those 10 years. This is a pretty good feat considering wins are always a part of the discussion in making the pro bowl and Marino's was cursed with some very poor defenses. Averaging Yards allowed and PPG to come up with defensive ranks, his teams averaged 18th out of usually 28 (The last year or 2 had 30 teams) How many QB's that we ever discuss as being good had to put up with that? None? One at most?

In those 10 years Marino AVERAGED 4052 yards per year on a per game basis (He averaged 253.3 yards per game x 16 = 4052 yards) and averaged 26 TD's with 16 picks during the same time frame. Considering it was tougher time to throw than now those were untouched numbers during those TEN years where he was just compiling stats according to one person Why don't you show me someone who compiled those numbers during those 10 years (especially when these were not his 4 best years according to one person)?

I will give you two examples...One is Jim Kelly, who's career perfectly blends in to these 10 years as his career is basically these 10 years. Elway, the stats help make look better as Elway's career was the same time frame as Marino's, but Elway's 1st 4 years were not his best, but here goes anyway.

Remember these 10 years are not copunting Marino's great 1st 4 years and only those years "he was just a stat compiler"

1987-1996

Marino 253 YPG or 4052 per year with 26 TD's and 16 Int's

Kelly 221 YPG or 3541 per year with 24 TD's and 18 int's

Elway 227 YPG or 3635 per year with 20 TD's and 15 int's

Yeah, Marino was just compiling stats

BTW, I mentioned the defenses that these guys played with

Marino's defense averaged 18th for these 10 years, Elway's 14th and Kelly's 13th. Remember as an average even a few spots is pretty big because that would imply that every year they were a little better. 4 spots is VERY large.

I would like to look at some more as I thought possibly Dan Fouts would be another good comp, but I have a crew of 10+ coming over to watch the playoffs and anyone out there can see HK doesn't have a clue.

Peace...

Stick to facts, please.Marino had the #1 defense for points allowed twice in his career, blaming his failures to compete in the post season are not the fault of his defense.

Also, extrapolating per game numbers and multiplying by 16 games to get averages is inaccurate considering he did not play those actual games. Durability matters, which is why Marino will always take a back seat to guys like Favre and Manning in GOAT discussions.

Intelligence is one other area worth discussing, look at these wonderlic scores:

Brady 33

Manning 28

Favre 22

Marino 14

All of these factors are why Marino is not worthy of consideration in any "all-time" conversations for career or single season discussion for QB's:

1) Immobility (0.29 career ypc)

2) Ability to handle pressure - His playoff performances in losses he had 15 TDs & 19 INTs with at least 2 INT in 9 of 10 games.

3) Intelligence (14!)

Impressive passing stats? Yes, but look at his attempts compared to his peers, and look at how his numbers dipped in the post USFL era and it sheds light on why he is a paper tiger.

Conclusion: Marino simply does not stack up favorably when he is evaluated logically and rationally compared to the true greats.

The comps were close as all of the guys played between 140 and 147 games during that 10 year stretch. HK, you are a waste of time to respond to until you have even the slightest bit of objectivity in your comments, I will agree with what everyone else says about you...and not waste my time responding

 

[H.K.]

As I've already shown, Marino peaked after four years and turned into a compiler. HK

HK, not only are you always wrong (Which is why you lose every sig bet), but this above comment shows an absolute lack of logic and understanding of the game of football. You haven't shown anything to back your comments and in fact these type of comments are the reason why you tick everyone off with hyperbole based on NOTHING.It is obvious you either never watched Miami games or you (as many people have said) don't have any clue about the game of football. Let me apologize to to the mods for this comment that is towards a person, but his type of trash ruins the shark pool because it adds NOTHING to a real discussion and we end up debating whether Marino's years after his first 4 were just "compiling" stats???

If you look at the next 10 years of Marino's career (which is being said he compiled stats after the 1st 4), Marino made the Pro Bowl 5 of those 10 years. This is a pretty good feat considering wins are always a part of the discussion in making the pro bowl and Marino's was cursed with some very poor defenses. Averaging Yards allowed and PPG to come up with defensive ranks, his teams averaged 18th out of usually 28 (The last year or 2 had 30 teams) How many QB's that we ever discuss as being good had to put up with that? None? One at most?

In those 10 years Marino AVERAGED 4052 yards per year on a per game basis (He averaged 253.3 yards per game x 16 = 4052 yards) and averaged 26 TD's with 16 picks during the same time frame. Considering it was tougher time to throw than now those were untouched numbers during those TEN years where he was just compiling stats according to one person Why don't you show me someone who compiled those numbers during those 10 years (especially when these were not his 4 best years according to one person)?

I will give you two examples...One is Jim Kelly, who's career perfectly blends in to these 10 years as his career is basically these 10 years. Elway, the stats help make look better as Elway's career was the same time frame as Marino's, but Elway's 1st 4 years were not his best, but here goes anyway.

Remember these 10 years are not copunting Marino's great 1st 4 years and only those years "he was just a stat compiler"

1987-1996

Marino 253 YPG or 4052 per year with 26 TD's and 16 Int's

Kelly 221 YPG or 3541 per year with 24 TD's and 18 int's

Elway 227 YPG or 3635 per year with 20 TD's and 15 int's

Yeah, Marino was just compiling stats

BTW, I mentioned the defenses that these guys played with

Marino's defense averaged 18th for these 10 years, Elway's 14th and Kelly's 13th. Remember as an average even a few spots is pretty big because that would imply that every year they were a little better. 4 spots is VERY large.

I would like to look at some more as I thought possibly Dan Fouts would be another good comp, but I have a crew of 10+ coming over to watch the playoffs and anyone out there can see HK doesn't have a clue.

Peace...

Stick to facts, please.Marino had the #1 defense for points allowed twice in his career, blaming his failures to compete in the post season are not the fault of his defense.

Also, extrapolating per game numbers and multiplying by 16 games to get averages is inaccurate considering he did not play those actual games. Durability matters, which is why Marino will always take a back seat to guys like Favre and Manning in GOAT discussions.

Intelligence is one other area worth discussing, look at these wonderlic scores:

Brady 33

Manning 28

Favre 22

Marino 14

All of these factors are why Marino is not worthy of consideration in any "all-time" conversations for career or single season discussion for QB's:

1) Immobility (0.29 career ypc)

2) Ability to handle pressure - His playoff performances in losses he had 15 TDs & 19 INTs with at least 2 INT in 9 of 10 games.

3) Intelligence (14!)

Impressive passing stats? Yes, but look at his attempts compared to his peers, and look at how his numbers dipped in the post USFL era and it sheds light on why he is a paper tiger.

Conclusion: Marino simply does not stack up favorably when he is evaluated logically and rationally compared to the true greats.

The comps were close as all of the guys played between 140 and 147 games during that 10 year stretch. HK, you are a waste of time to respond to until you have even the slightest bit of objectivity in your comments, I will agree with what everyone else says about you...and not waste my time responding

Please stop posting intentionally misleading data in the future, then we can have some objective discussions.TIA

 

[H.K.]

This one is all over but the crying:

Tom Brady 2007 [ 94 ] [41.05%]

Peyton Manning 2004 [ 69 ] [30.13%]

Dan Marino 1984 [ 66 ] [28.82%]

 

[Doug Drinen]

Just for fun, here is a record of all the TD passes thrown during the three seasons under discussion.

Brady 2007

| game_date  | team | opp | type | sc_bef | sc_aft | q	| dist | other_player	 | final_score |+------------+------+-----+------+--------+--------+------+------+------------------+-------------+| 2007-09-09 | nwe  | nyj | pass |	  0 |	  7 |	1 |   11 | Wes Welker	   | 38-14	   || 2007-09-09 | nwe  | nyj | pass |	  0 |	  7 |	2 |	5 | Ben Watson	   | 38-14	   || 2007-09-09 | nwe  | nyj | pass |	 14 |	 21 |	3 |   51 | Randy Moss	   | 38-14	   || 2007-09-16 | nwe  | sdg | pass |	  0 |	  7 |	1 |	7 | Ben Watson	   | 38-14	   || 2007-09-16 | nwe  | sdg | pass |	  7 |	 14 |	1 |   23 | Randy Moss	   | 38-14	   || 2007-09-16 | nwe  | sdg | pass |	 17 |	 24 |	3 |   24 | Randy Moss	   | 38-14	   || 2007-09-23 | nwe  | buf | pass |	  3 |	 10 |	2 |	3 | Randy Moss	   | 38-7		|| 2007-09-23 | nwe  | buf | pass |	 -4 |	  3 |	2 |	8 | Ben Watson	   | 38-7		|| 2007-09-23 | nwe  | buf | pass |	 10 |	 17 |	3 |	4 | Jabar Gaffney	| 38-7		|| 2007-09-23 | nwe  | buf | pass |	 24 |	 31 |	4 |   45 | Randy Moss	   | 38-7		|| 2007-10-01 | nwe  | cin | pass |	  3 |	 10 |	1 |	1 | Mike Vrabel	  | 34-13	   || 2007-10-01 | nwe  | cin | pass |	  3 |	 10 |	2 |	7 | Randy Moss	   | 34-13	   || 2007-10-01 | nwe  | cin | pass |	 14 |	 21 |	4 |   14 | Randy Moss	   | 34-13	   || 2007-10-07 | nwe  | cle | pass |	  3 |	 10 |	1 |   34 | Donte Stallworth | 34-17	   || 2007-10-07 | nwe  | cle | pass |	 13 |	 20 |	2 |	7 | Ben Watson	   | 34-17	   || 2007-10-07 | nwe  | cle | pass |	 10 |	 17 |	4 |   25 | Ben Watson	   | 34-17	   || 2007-10-14 | nwe  | dal | pass |	  7 |	 14 |	1 |   35 | Wes Welker	   | 48-27	   || 2007-10-14 | nwe  | dal | pass |	  0 |	  7 |	1 |	6 | Randy Moss	   | 48-27	   || 2007-10-14 | nwe  | dal | pass |	  4 |	 11 |	2 |   12 | Wes Welker	   | 48-27	   || 2007-10-14 | nwe  | dal | pass |	 -3 |	  4 |	3 |	1 | Kyle Brady	   | 48-27	   || 2007-10-14 | nwe  | dal | pass |	  7 |	 14 |	4 |   69 | Donte Stallworth | 48-27	   || 2007-10-21 | nwe  | mia | pass |	  0 |	  7 |	1 |   30 | Donte Stallworth | 49-28	   || 2007-10-21 | nwe  | mia | pass |	  7 |	 14 |	1 |	2 | Kyle Brady	   | 49-28	   || 2007-10-21 | nwe  | mia | pass |	 14 |	 21 |	2 |   35 | Randy Moss	   | 49-28	   || 2007-10-21 | nwe  | mia | pass |	 21 |	 28 |	2 |   50 | Randy Moss	   | 49-28	   || 2007-10-21 | nwe  | mia | pass |	 28 |	 35 |	2 |   14 | Wes Welker	   | 49-28	   || 2007-10-21 | nwe  | mia | pass |	 21 |	 28 |	4 |   16 | Wes Welker	   | 49-28	   || 2007-10-28 | nwe  | was | pass |	 17 |	 24 |	2 |	6 | Randy Moss	   | 52-7		|| 2007-10-28 | nwe  | was | pass |	  7 |	 14 |	2 |	2 | Mike Vrabel	  | 52-7		|| 2007-10-28 | nwe  | was | pass |	 38 |	 45 |	4 |	2 | Wes Welker	   | 52-7		|| 2007-11-04 | nwe  | clt | pass |	 -3 |	  4 |	2 |	4 | Randy Moss	   | 24-20	   || 2007-11-04 | nwe  | clt | pass |	 -3 |	  4 |	4 |   13 | Kevin Faulk	  | 24-20	   || 2007-11-04 | nwe  | clt | pass |	-10 |	 -3 |	4 |	3 | Wes Welker	   | 24-20	   || 2007-11-18 | nwe  | buf | pass |	  7 |	 14 |	1 |   43 | Randy Moss	   | 56-10	   || 2007-11-18 | nwe  | buf | pass |	 14 |	 21 |	2 |	6 | Randy Moss	   | 56-10	   || 2007-11-18 | nwe  | buf | pass |	 21 |	 28 |	2 |   17 | Randy Moss	   | 56-10	   || 2007-11-18 | nwe  | buf | pass |	  7 |	 14 |	2 |   16 | Randy Moss	   | 56-10	   || 2007-11-18 | nwe  | buf | pass |	 28 |	 35 |	3 |	3 | Ben Watson	   | 56-10	   || 2007-11-25 | nwe  | phi | pass |	 -4 |	  3 |	2 |   19 | Jabar Gaffney	| 31-28	   || 2007-12-03 | nwe  | rav | pass |	 -7 |	  0 |	3 |	3 | Randy Moss	   | 27-24	   || 2007-12-03 | nwe  | rav | pass |	 -4 |	  3 |	4 |	8 | Jabar Gaffney	| 27-24	   || 2007-12-09 | nwe  | pit | pass |	 -3 |	  4 |	1 |	4 | Randy Moss	   | 34-13	   || 2007-12-09 | nwe  | pit | pass |	  4 |	 11 |	2 |   63 | Randy Moss	   | 34-13	   || 2007-12-09 | nwe  | pit | pass |	  4 |	 11 |	3 |   56 | Jabar Gaffney	| 34-13	   || 2007-12-09 | nwe  | pit | pass |	 11 |	 18 |	3 |	2 | Wes Welker	   | 34-13	   || 2007-12-23 | nwe  | mia | pass |	  0 |	  7 |	1 |   11 | Randy Moss	   | 28-7		|| 2007-12-23 | nwe  | mia | pass |	  7 |	 14 |	2 |	1 | Randy Moss	   | 28-7		|| 2007-12-23 | nwe  | mia | pass |	 21 |	 28 |	2 |   48 | Jabar Gaffney	| 28-7		|| 2007-12-29 | nwe  | nyg | pass |	 -4 |	  3 |	2 |	4 | Randy Moss	   | 38-35	   || 2007-12-29 | nwe  | nyg | pass |	 -5 |	  3 |	4 |   65 | Randy Moss	   | 38-35	   || 2008-01-12 | nwe  | jax | pass |	 -7 |	  0 |	1 |	3 | Ben Watson	   | 31-20	   || 2008-01-12 | nwe  | jax | pass |	  0 |	  7 |	3 |	6 | Wes Welker	   | 31-20	   || 2008-01-12 | nwe  | jax | pass |	  4 |	 11 |	3 |	9 | Ben Watson	   | 31-20	   || 2008-01-20 | nwe  | sdg | pass |	  1 |	  8 |	2 |   12 | Jabar Gaffney	| 21-12	   || 2008-01-20 | nwe  | sdg | pass |	  2 |	  9 |	4 |	6 | Wes Welker	   | 21-12	   |+------------+------+-----+------+--------+--------+------+------+------------------+-------------+

Manning 2004

+------------+------+-----+------+--------+--------+------+------+-----------------+-------------+| game_date  | team | opp | type | sc_bef | sc_aft | q	| dist | other_player	| final_score |+------------+------+-----+------+--------+--------+------+------+-----------------+-------------+| 2004-09-09 | clt  | nwe | pass |	  0 |	  7 |	2 |	3 | Marvin Harrison | 24-27	   || 2004-09-09 | clt  | nwe | pass |	-10 |	 -3 |	4 |	7 | Brandon Stokley | 24-27	   || 2004-09-19 | clt  | oti | pass |	 -7 |	  0 |	3 |	5 | Reggie Wayne	| 31-17	   || 2004-09-19 | clt  | oti | pass |	 -7 |	  0 |	4 |	1 | Marcus Pollard  | 31-17	   || 2004-09-26 | clt  | gnb | pass |	  0 |	  7 |	1 |   28 | Marvin Harrison | 45-31	   || 2004-09-26 | clt  | gnb | pass |	  0 |	  7 |	1 |   36 | Reggie Wayne	| 45-31	   || 2004-09-26 | clt  | gnb | pass |	  0 |	  7 |	1 |   34 | Brandon Stokley | 45-31	   || 2004-09-26 | clt  | gnb | pass |	  7 |	 14 |	2 |   27 | Brandon Stokley | 45-31	   || 2004-09-26 | clt  | gnb | pass |	 11 |	 18 |	2 |	1 | James Mungro	| 45-31	   || 2004-10-03 | clt  | jax | pass |	  0 |	  7 |	1 |   15 | Marvin Harrison | 24-17	   || 2004-10-03 | clt  | jax | pass |	  4 |	 11 |	3 |   16 | Marcus Pollard  | 24-17	   || 2004-10-10 | clt  | rai | pass |	  0 |	  7 |	1 |	1 | James Mungro	| 35-14	   || 2004-10-10 | clt  | rai | pass |	  7 |	 14 |	2 |   35 | Reggie Wayne	| 35-14	   || 2004-10-10 | clt  | rai | pass |	  7 |	 14 |	2 |	4 | Dallas Clark	| 35-14	   || 2004-10-24 | clt  | jax | pass |	 -7 |	  0 |	2 |	7 | Marvin Harrison | 24-27	   || 2004-10-24 | clt  | jax | pass |	 -3 |	  4 |	2 |   17 | Dallas Clark	| 24-27	   || 2004-10-24 | clt  | jax | pass |	 -7 |	  0 |	4 |   39 | Marvin Harrison | 24-27	   || 2004-10-31 | clt  | kan | pass |	  0 |	  7 |	1 |   52 | Marvin Harrison | 35-45	   || 2004-10-31 | clt  | kan | pass |	-14 |	 -7 |	2 |	5 | Marcus Pollard  | 35-45	   || 2004-10-31 | clt  | kan | pass |	-17 |	-10 |	3 |   22 | Marvin Harrison | 35-45	   || 2004-10-31 | clt  | kan | pass |	-10 |	 -3 |	3 |   41 | Reggie Wayne	| 35-45	   || 2004-10-31 | clt  | kan | pass |	-10 |	 -3 |	4 |	6 | Reggie Wayne	| 35-45	   || 2004-11-08 | clt  | min | pass |	  0 |	  7 |	1 |	5 | Reggie Wayne	| 31-28	   || 2004-11-08 | clt  | min | pass |	  7 |	 14 |	2 |   10 | Marcus Pollard  | 31-28	   || 2004-11-08 | clt  | min | pass |	  0 |	  7 |	3 |	4 | Dallas Clark	| 31-28	   || 2004-11-08 | clt  | min | pass |	  0 |	  7 |	4 |   19 | Marcus Pollard  | 31-28	   || 2004-11-14 | clt  | htx | pass |	  0 |	  7 |	1 |	4 | Brandon Stokley | 49-14	   || 2004-11-14 | clt  | htx | pass |	  7 |	 14 |	2 |	5 | Reggie Wayne	| 49-14	   || 2004-11-14 | clt  | htx | pass |	 14 |	 21 |	2 |	1 | Dallas Clark	| 49-14	   || 2004-11-14 | clt  | htx | pass |	 28 |	 35 |	3 |   80 | Dallas Clark	| 49-14	   || 2004-11-14 | clt  | htx | pass |	 21 |	 28 |	3 |   69 | Brandon Stokley | 49-14	   || 2004-11-21 | clt  | chi | pass |	  0 |	  7 |	1 |   14 | Marcus Pollard  | 41-10	   || 2004-11-21 | clt  | chi | pass |	  4 |	 11 |	2 |   35 | Reggie Wayne	| 41-10	   || 2004-11-21 | clt  | chi | pass |	 14 |	 21 |	2 |   10 | Marvin Harrison | 41-10	   || 2004-11-21 | clt  | chi | pass |	 24 |	 31 |	3 |   27 | Reggie Wayne	| 41-10	   || 2004-11-25 | clt  | det | pass |	  0 |	  7 |	1 |	4 | Brandon Stokley | 41-9		|| 2004-11-25 | clt  | det | pass |	  4 |	 10 |	1 |   12 | Brandon Stokley | 41-9		|| 2004-11-25 | clt  | det | pass |	  7 |	 14 |	2 |   25 | Brandon Stokley | 41-9		|| 2004-11-25 | clt  | det | pass |	 14 |	 21 |	2 |   13 | Marvin Harrison | 41-9		|| 2004-11-25 | clt  | det | pass |	 18 |	 25 |	3 |   10 | Marvin Harrison | 41-9		|| 2004-11-25 | clt  | det | pass |	 25 |	 32 |	3 |	5 | Marvin Harrison | 41-9		|| 2004-12-05 | clt  | oti | pass |	 -7 |	  0 |	1 |   24 | Marvin Harrison | 51-24	   || 2004-12-05 | clt  | oti | pass |	 -7 |	  0 |	2 |   28 | Brandon Stokley | 51-24	   || 2004-12-05 | clt  | oti | pass |	 17 |	 24 |	4 |   10 | Reggie Wayne	| 51-24	   || 2004-12-12 | clt  | htx | pass |	  7 |	 14 |	1 |   12 | Reggie Wayne	| 23-14	   || 2004-12-12 | clt  | htx | pass |	  0 |	  7 |	1 |	3 | Marvin Harrison | 23-14	   || 2004-12-19 | clt  | rav | pass |	  3 |	 10 |	3 |   29 | Marvin Harrison | 20-10	   || 2004-12-26 | clt  | sdg | pass |	-15 |	 -8 |	3 |	3 | James Mungro	| 34-31	   || 2004-12-26 | clt  | sdg | pass |	 -8 |	  0 |	4 |   21 | Brandon Stokley | 34-31	   || 2005-01-09 | clt  | den | pass |	  0 |	  7 |	1 |	2 | James Mungro	| 49-24	   || 2005-01-09 | clt  | den | pass |	 18 |	 25 |	2 |   35 | Reggie Wayne	| 49-24	   || 2005-01-09 | clt  | den | pass |	 14 |	 21 |	2 |   19 | Dallas Clark	| 49-24	   || 2005-01-09 | clt  | den | pass |	 18 |	 25 |	4 |   43 | Reggie Wayne	| 49-24	   |+------------+------+-----+------+--------+--------+------+------+-----------------+-------------+

Marino 1984

+------------+------+-----+------+--------+--------+------+------+---------------+-------------+| game_date  | team | opp | type | sc_bef | sc_aft | q	| dist | other_player  | final_score |+------------+------+-----+------+--------+--------+------+------+---------------+-------------+| 1984-09-02 | mia  | was | pass |	  0 |	  7 |	1 |   26 | Mark Duper	| 35-17	   || 1984-09-02 | mia  | was | pass |	 -3 |	  4 |	2 |   74 | Mark Duper	| 35-17	   || 1984-09-02 | mia  | was | pass |	  4 |	 11 |	3 |	6 | Jim C. Jensen | 35-17	   || 1984-09-02 | mia  | was | pass |	 11 |	 18 |	3 |	9 | Mark Clayton  | 35-17	   || 1984-09-02 | mia  | was | pass |	 18 |	 25 |	3 |	4 | Jim C. Jensen | 35-17	   || 1984-09-09 | mia  | nwe | pass |	  0 |	  7 |	3 |   38 | Mark Clayton  | 28-7		|| 1984-09-09 | mia  | nwe | pass |	  7 |	 14 |	3 |   15 | Mark Clayton  | 28-7		|| 1984-09-17 | mia  | buf | pass |	  0 |	  7 |	1 |   11 | Mark Duper	| 21-17	   || 1984-09-17 | mia  | buf | pass |	  7 |	 14 |	2 |   12 | Mark Clayton  | 21-17	   || 1984-09-17 | mia  | buf | pass |	 11 |	 18 |	3 |	1 | Nat Moore	 | 21-17	   || 1984-09-23 | mia  | clt | pass |	  0 |	  6 |	2 |   80 | Mark Duper	| 44-7		|| 1984-09-23 | mia  | clt | pass |	  9 |	 16 |	2 |	5 | Mark Duper	| 44-7		|| 1984-09-30 | mia  | crd | pass |	  6 |	 12 |	2 |   26 | Joe Rose	  | 36-28	   || 1984-09-30 | mia  | crd | pass |	  5 |	 12 |	2 |   29 | Mark Clayton  | 36-28	   || 1984-09-30 | mia  | crd | pass |	  5 |	 12 |	4 |   23 | Tony Nathan   | 36-28	   || 1984-10-07 | mia  | pit | pass |	  0 |	  7 |	2 |	3 | Bruce Hardy   | 31-7		|| 1984-10-07 | mia  | pit | pass |	  7 |	 14 |	2 |   34 | Joe Rose	  | 31-7		|| 1984-10-14 | mia  | oti | pass |	  0 |	  7 |	2 |   27 | Mark Clayton  | 28-10	   || 1984-10-14 | mia  | oti | pass |	  7 |	 14 |	3 |   17 | Mark Duper	| 28-10	   || 1984-10-14 | mia  | oti | pass |	 11 |	 18 |	4 |   32 | Nat Moore	 | 28-10	   || 1984-10-21 | mia  | nwe | pass |	  0 |	  6 |	2 |   19 | Nat Moore	 | 44-24	   || 1984-10-21 | mia  | nwe | pass |	  6 |	 13 |	3 |   15 | Mark Clayton  | 44-24	   || 1984-10-21 | mia  | nwe | pass |	  6 |	 13 |	3 |	5 | Dan Johnson   | 44-24	   || 1984-10-21 | mia  | nwe | pass |	  6 |	 13 |	4 |   15 | Nat Moore	 | 44-24	   || 1984-10-28 | mia  | buf | pass |	  0 |	  7 |	1 |	7 | Mark Clayton  | 38-7		|| 1984-10-28 | mia  | buf | pass |	  7 |	 14 |	2 |   10 | Dan Johnson   | 38-7		|| 1984-10-28 | mia  | buf | pass |	 17 |	 24 |	2 |   65 | Mark Clayton  | 38-7		|| 1984-11-04 | mia  | nyj | pass |	  0 |	  7 |	1 |   37 | Nat Moore	 | 31-17	   || 1984-11-04 | mia  | nyj | pass |	 -3 |	  4 |	4 |   47 | Mark Clayton  | 31-17	   || 1984-11-11 | mia  | phi | pass |	-14 |	 -7 |	2 |   11 | Tony Nathan   | 24-23	   || 1984-11-18 | mia  | sdg | pass |	 -7 |	  0 |	2 |   12 | Mark Clayton  | 28-34	   || 1984-11-18 | mia  | sdg | pass |	  0 |	  7 |	2 |	4 | Woody Bennett | 28-34	   || 1984-11-26 | mia  | nyj | pass |	 -7 |	  0 |	2 |	5 | Mark Clayton  | 28-17	   || 1984-11-26 | mia  | nyj | pass |	 -3 |	  4 |	2 |	1 | Bruce Hardy   | 28-17	   || 1984-11-26 | mia  | nyj | pass |	  4 |	 11 |	3 |	7 | Dan Johnson   | 28-17	   || 1984-11-26 | mia  | nyj | pass |	  4 |	 11 |	3 |   12 | Bruce Hardy   | 28-17	   || 1984-12-02 | mia  | rai | pass |	 -7 |	  0 |	1 |	4 | Jimmy Cefalo  | 34-45	   || 1984-12-02 | mia  | rai | pass |	-11 |	 -4 |	3 |   64 | Mark Clayton  | 34-45	   || 1984-12-02 | mia  | rai | pass |	 -4 |	  3 |	3 |   11 | Mark Clayton  | 34-45	   || 1984-12-02 | mia  | rai | pass |	-11 |	 -4 |	4 |	9 | Mark Duper	| 34-45	   || 1984-12-09 | mia  | clt | pass |	-10 |	 -3 |	3 |	2 | Nat Moore	 | 35-17	   || 1984-12-09 | mia  | clt | pass |	 -3 |	  4 |	3 |	2 | Bruce Hardy   | 35-17	   || 1984-12-09 | mia  | clt | pass |	 11 |	 18 |	4 |	7 | Mark Clayton  | 35-17	   || 1984-12-09 | mia  | clt | pass |	  4 |	 11 |	4 |   25 | Jimmy Cefalo  | 35-17	   || 1984-12-17 | mia  | dal | pass |	  0 |	  7 |	2 |   41 | Mark Clayton  | 28-21	   || 1984-12-17 | mia  | dal | pass |	  7 |	 14 |	3 |	3 | Bruce Hardy   | 28-21	   || 1984-12-17 | mia  | dal | pass |	  0 |	  7 |	4 |   39 | Mark Clayton  | 28-21	   || 1984-12-17 | mia  | dal | pass |	  0 |	  7 |	4 |   63 | Mark Clayton  | 28-21	   || 1984-12-29 | mia  | sea | pass |	  4 |	 11 |	2 |   34 | Jimmy Cefalo  | 31-10	   || 1984-12-29 | mia  | sea | pass |	 11 |	 18 |	3 |   33 | Mark Clayton  | 31-10	   || 1984-12-29 | mia  | sea | pass |	  4 |	 11 |	3 |	3 | Bruce Hardy   | 31-10	   || 1985-01-06 | mia  | pit | pass |	  0 |	  7 |	1 |   40 | Mark Clayton  | 45-28	   || 1985-01-06 | mia  | pit | pass |	 -4 |	  3 |	2 |   41 | Mark Duper	| 45-28	   || 1985-01-06 | mia  | pit | pass |	 10 |	 17 |	3 |   36 | Mark Duper	| 45-28	   || 1985-01-06 | mia  | pit | pass |	 17 |	 24 |	4 |	6 | Nat Moore	 | 45-28	   || 1985-01-20 | mia  | sfo | pass |	 -4 |	  3 |	1 |	2 | Dan Johnson   | 16-38	   |+------------+------+-----+------+--------+--------+------+------+---------------+-------------+

 

[bostonfred]

Just for fun, here is a record of all the TD passes thrown during the three seasons under discussion.

Brady 2007

| game_date  | team | opp | type | sc_bef | sc_aft | q	| dist | other_player	 | final_score |+------------+------+-----+------+--------+--------+------+------+------------------+-------------+| 2007-09-09 | nwe  | nyj | pass |	  0 |	  7 |	2 |	5 | Ben Watson	   | 38-14	   || 2007-09-23 | nwe  | buf | pass |	  3 |	 10 |	2 |	3 | Randy Moss	   | 38-7		|| 2007-09-23 | nwe  | buf | pass |	 10 |	 17 |	3 |	4 | Jabar Gaffney	| 38-7		|| 2007-10-01 | nwe  | cin | pass |	  3 |	 10 |	1 |	1 | Mike Vrabel	  | 34-13	   || 2007-10-14 | nwe  | dal | pass |	 -3 |	  4 |	3 |	1 | Kyle Brady	   | 48-27	   || 2007-10-21 | nwe  | mia | pass |	  7 |	 14 |	1 |	2 | Kyle Brady	   | 49-28	   || 2007-10-28 | nwe  | was | pass |	  7 |	 14 |	2 |	2 | Mike Vrabel	  | 52-7		|| 2007-10-28 | nwe  | was | pass |	 38 |	 45 |	4 |	2 | Wes Welker	   | 52-7		|| 2007-11-04 | nwe  | clt | pass |	 -3 |	  4 |	2 |	4 | Randy Moss	   | 24-20	   || 2007-11-04 | nwe  | clt | pass |	-10 |	 -3 |	4 |	3 | Wes Welker	   | 24-20	   || 2007-11-18 | nwe  | buf | pass |	 28 |	 35 |	3 |	3 | Ben Watson	   | 56-10	   || 2007-12-03 | nwe  | rav | pass |	 -7 |	  0 |	3 |	3 | Randy Moss	   | 27-24	   || 2007-12-09 | nwe  | pit | pass |	 -3 |	  4 |	1 |	4 | Randy Moss	   | 34-13	   || 2007-12-09 | nwe  | pit | pass |	 11 |	 18 |	3 |	2 | Wes Welker	   | 34-13	   || 2007-12-23 | nwe  | mia | pass |	  7 |	 14 |	2 |	1 | Randy Moss	   | 28-7		|| 2007-12-29 | nwe  | nyg | pass |	 -4 |	  3 |	2 |	4 | Randy Moss	   | 38-35	   || 2008-01-12 | nwe  | jax | pass |	 -7 |	  0 |	1 |	3 | Ben Watson	   | 31-20	   |+------------+------+-----+------+--------+--------+------+------+------------------+-------------+

Manning 2004

+------------+------+-----+------+--------+--------+------+------+-----------------+-------------+| game_date  | team | opp | type | sc_bef | sc_aft | q	| dist | other_player	| final_score |+------------+------+-----+------+--------+--------+------+------+-----------------+-------------+| 2004-09-09 | clt  | nwe | pass |	  0 |	  7 |	2 |	3 | Marvin Harrison | 24-27	   || 2004-09-19 | clt  | oti | pass |	 -7 |	  0 |	3 |	5 | Reggie Wayne	| 31-17	   || 2004-09-19 | clt  | oti | pass |	 -7 |	  0 |	4 |	1 | Marcus Pollard  | 31-17	   || 2004-09-26 | clt  | gnb | pass |	 11 |	 18 |	2 |	1 | James Mungro	| 45-31	   || 2004-10-10 | clt  | rai | pass |	  0 |	  7 |	1 |	1 | James Mungro	| 35-14	   || 2004-10-10 | clt  | rai | pass |	  7 |	 14 |	2 |	4 | Dallas Clark	| 35-14	   || 2004-10-31 | clt  | kan | pass |	-14 |	 -7 |	2 |	5 | Marcus Pollard  | 35-45	   || 2004-11-08 | clt  | min | pass |	  0 |	  7 |	1 |	5 | Reggie Wayne	| 31-28	   || 2004-11-08 | clt  | min | pass |	  0 |	  7 |	3 |	4 | Dallas Clark	| 31-28	   || 2004-11-14 | clt  | htx | pass |	  0 |	  7 |	1 |	4 | Brandon Stokley | 49-14	   || 2004-11-14 | clt  | htx | pass |	  7 |	 14 |	2 |	5 | Reggie Wayne	| 49-14	   || 2004-11-14 | clt  | htx | pass |	 14 |	 21 |	2 |	1 | Dallas Clark	| 49-14	   || 2004-11-25 | clt  | det | pass |	  0 |	  7 |	1 |	4 | Brandon Stokley | 41-9		|| 2004-11-25 | clt  | det | pass |	 25 |	 32 |	3 |	5 | Marvin Harrison | 41-9		|| 2004-12-12 | clt  | htx | pass |	  0 |	  7 |	1 |	3 | Marvin Harrison | 23-14	   || 2004-12-26 | clt  | sdg | pass |	-15 |	 -8 |	3 |	3 | James Mungro	| 34-31	   || 2005-01-09 | clt  | den | pass |	  0 |	  7 |	1 |	2 | James Mungro	| 49-24	   |+------------+------+-----+------+--------+--------+------+------+-----------------+-------------+

For those who have said that Brady threw more short yardage TD passes because he was chasing the record, they both threw 17 TDs inside the 5 yard line. However, the Patriots had 17 rushing TDs, while the Colts had 10. In other words, Manning threw substantially more frequently inside the 5 than Brady.

 

[phthalatemagic]

This one is all over but the crying:Tom Brady 2007 [ 94 ] [41.05%] Peyton Manning 2004 [ 69 ] [30.13%] Dan Marino 1984 [ 66 ] [28.82%]

Considering the number of aliases here that are pro-Patriot, and even with that the best that they can do is give a 41%, I don't think anything is settled.

 

[Road Warriors]

This one is all over but the crying:Tom Brady 2007 [ 94 ] [41.05%] Peyton Manning 2004 [ 69 ] [30.13%] Dan Marino 1984 [ 66 ] [28.82%]

Considering the number of aliases here that are pro-Patriot, and even with that the best that they can do is give a 41%, I don't think anything is settled.

Considering the at least 2:1 ratio of aliases here that have an axe to grind about the Pats, I'd say H.K was right. And who ever thought you could say that?!?

 

[Tau837]

For those who have said that Brady threw more short yardage TD passes because he was chasing the record, they both threw 17 TDs inside the 5 yard line. However, the Patriots had 17 rushing TDs, while the Colts had 10. In other words, Manning threw substantially more frequently inside the 5 than Brady.

I suppose that is one definition of "threw substantially more frequently". But I disagree with that definition.Brady attempted more passes inside the 5 yard line - 40 for Brady in 2007 (6.9% of his attempts), 24 for Manning in 2004 (4.8% of his attempts).

Even on a relative basis compared to rushing attempts, Brady still threw more inside the 5 yard line - 34 carries for Pats RBs and 40 pass attempts by Brady in 2007, compared to 23 carries for Colts RBs and 24 pass attempts by Manning in 2004.

Perhaps you can explain your definition.

 

[hitmenssharpshooters]

Ok to keep it short..if this is based on win/loss obviously everyone will say Brady because they are undefeated and neither Manning or Marino played for an undefeated team.

I am a huggggggge Marino fan but after looking at Mannings stats he gets the nod in the STATS category when comparing the 3 in the long run.

But for one season if I am correct let's compare the offense around.

WR's

Manning had Reggie Wayne, Marvin Harrison, Marcus Pollard and Brandon Stokley '04

Brady had Randy Moss,Donte Stallworth and Wes Welker..throw in Watson a solid TE '07

Marino had Mark Duper and Mark Clayton '84

Who had the better receiving core? Brady and Manning.

RB's

Brady had Maroney/Faulk/Morris

Manning had Edge

Marino had ?

But for their careers, Brady had Dillon for a little while. Manning had Edge for a while. Who did Marino have?

Can anyone name 3 RB's the Dolphins had during his career?

I can...

 

[hitmenssharpshooters]

Ready...

Bernie Parmalee

Terry Kirby

Karim Adbul Jabbar

 

[Road Warriors]

Ready...Bernie ParmaleeTerry KirbyKarim Adbul Jabbar

What about Tony Nathan, Troy Stadford, Lorenzo Hampton. Pretty ugly RB situation in MIA for several years.

 

[Das Boot]

Marino... Brady and Manning had the benefit of stronger teams.

 

[bostonfred]

Marino... Brady and Manning had the benefit of stronger teams.

True, but he also played in an era where defenses didn't have as much talent:

I would not vote for Marino based on the USFL factor. At the time, the USFL had made a push to draft players and pilfer players from NFL rosters, thus weakening defenses in the NFL. Remember, Eric Dickerson set the all time single season eushing record the same year Marino set the passing yardage mark.Even players like Neil Lomax (4600+ passing yards) and Dave Krieg (32 passing TD) had career years that season. Roy Green led the league in receiving yards and had only one or two other decent seasons. It was an odd year all around.

Hmm, that is something I hadn't considered. Need some rethinking time now. Good post.

Look at Marino's numbers when the USFL folded, after 1986 he no longer put up gaudy stats. Usually a QB would be in their prime and most productive between their mid twenties and early thirties because they have a few years of experience, but not Marino. He simply lit up inferior competition early in his career and then his stats got worse when the competition got better. He's the most over-rated QB of all time.

Also, while defenses were allowed to be much more physical than they are today, the flip side is that the zone blitz and cover two defenses didn't exist back then.

 

[brady2moss]

My answer is Brady's 2007 season and it's not even close.

Think about it. This is Bradys first season with those WRs. He has never played with Moss, Welker and Stallworth EVER! Pretty impressive to do the things he did with brand new weapons in 16 games. Getting timing down, route running, getting on the "same page with one another" can be tough to do.

Manning and Marino for the most part has the sam supporting cast the prior season.

It really doesn't matter how many attempts, or how many minutes of the last game he played, or the weather in a particular region that year. When all is said and done, 16-0 with the single season TD record is the BEST SEASON EVER.

 

[GregR_2]

Marino... Brady and Manning had the benefit of stronger teams.

True, but he also played in an era where defenses didn't have as much talent:

I would not vote for Marino based on the USFL factor. At the time, the USFL had made a push to draft players and pilfer players from NFL rosters, thus weakening defenses in the NFL. Remember, Eric Dickerson set the all time single season eushing record the same year Marino set the passing yardage mark.Even players like Neil Lomax (4600+ passing yards) and Dave Krieg (32 passing TD) had career years that season. Roy Green led the league in receiving yards and had only one or two other decent seasons. It was an odd year all around.

Hmm, that is something I hadn't considered. Need some rethinking time now. Good post.

Look at Marino's numbers when the USFL folded, after 1986 he no longer put up gaudy stats. Usually a QB would be in their prime and most productive between their mid twenties and early thirties because they have a few years of experience, but not Marino. He simply lit up inferior competition early in his career and then his stats got worse when the competition got better. He's the most over-rated QB of all time.

Also, while defenses were allowed to be much more physical than they are today, the flip side is that the zone blitz and cover two defenses didn't exist back then.

Though neither did the current incarnations of the spread offense which teams are still learning how to defend.

 

[pizzatyme]

My answer is Brady's 2007 season and it's not even close.

Think about it. This is Bradys first season with those WRs. He has never played with Moss, Welker and Stallworth EVER! Pretty impressive to do the things he did with brand new weapons in 16 games. Getting timing down, route running, getting on the "same page with one another" can be tough to do.

Manning and Marino for the most part has the sam supporting cast the prior season.

It really doesn't matter how many attempts, or how many minutes of the last game he played, or the weather in a particular region that year. When all is said and done, 16-0 with the single season TD record is the BEST SEASON EVER.

Surprising you being a homer would have that opinion. To your second point, it obviously doesn't take long to "get the timing down" as shown by the 2007 Patriots. Yes, it takes good WRs and a good QB, but that point is overstated IMO.16-0 should not come into an analysis of individual performance.

I mean Gostkowski kicked a hell of a lot of PATs this season and went 16-0 as well. Did he have the greatest season ever for a Kicker?

 

[switz]

For those who have said that Brady threw more short yardage TD passes because he was chasing the record, they both threw 17 TDs inside the 5 yard line. However, the Patriots had 17 rushing TDs, while the Colts had 10. In other words, Manning threw substantially more frequently inside the 5 than Brady.

Your assertion is absolutely not assertable with the evidence you presented. % rush/pass TDs in the red zone is not a direct correlation of % rush/pass attempts in the red zone. Nice try though.

 

[switz]

For those who have said that Brady threw more short yardage TD passes because he was chasing the record, they both threw 17 TDs inside the 5 yard line. However, the Patriots had 17 rushing TDs, while the Colts had 10. In other words, Manning threw substantially more frequently inside the 5 than Brady.

I suppose that is one definition of "threw substantially more frequently". But I disagree with that definition.Brady attempted more passes inside the 5 yard line - 40 for Brady in 2007 (6.9% of his attempts), 24 for Manning in 2004 (4.8% of his attempts).

Even on a relative basis compared to rushing attempts, Brady still threw more inside the 5 yard line - 34 carries for Pats RBs and 40 pass attempts by Brady in 2007, compared to 23 carries for Colts RBs and 24 pass attempts by Manning in 2004.

Perhaps you can explain your definition.

Boston Fred is making assumptions based on totally unrelated data.

 

[switz]

I have seen this reference to a Pats fan determining that Manning played 20 more minutes than Brady a few times now, and wanted to check it for myself. I looked at this based on time of possession with each QB in the game. All of this is from ESPN play by play game logs.Manning 2004:Total - Manning played for either 418:50 or 426:05 in TOP.Brady 2007:Total - Brady played for 497:13 in TOP.It's possible these numbers are off slightly, because I'm not sure if the TOP I counted for possessions of the backup QBs consistently counted punts, etc. But the gap is large enough that I think it is clear that Manning most certainly did not play 20 more minutes than Brady.More than likely, rather than TOP, the person who made the claim that Manning played more looked instead at either minutes remaining when a new QB entered the game or minutes remaining that last time Manning/Brady left the game (the difference being whether or not the intervening defensive possession was counted or not).Regardless, it is clear that Brady was on the field for more minutes than Manning. And we also know Brady threw a lot more passes than Manning. So if one is trying to gauge the opportunities each had, there is no way to argue the fact that Brady had a lot more opportunities.

 

[brady2moss]

Going undeafeated and setting a single season TD record with 3 brand new WR's that you never played with before in your life is pretty impresive.

That is why I voted Brady..

I don't really care about the percentages of passing inside the 5, the weather in a certain region, how many passing attempts a qb had, how many minutes they played in the final regular season game.

Thats just me.

FWIW if Manning goes 16-0 and beats the TD record, he would then have the best single season.

 

[sad pandas]

I say it's a 41 way tie with all Super Bowl winners.

c'mon man...............trent dilfer?

 

[Ghost Rider]

Serious question:

After seeing the Patriots lose tonight, counting the postseason, did Tom Brady just have the best QB season ever?

I say no. Kurt Warner's '99 season is the best, IMO. He was the regular season MVP, he threw 49 TDs in their 19 games, his team won the Super Bowl, and he won the MVP of the Super Bowl. Collectively, you cannot beat that. Brady had 7 more TDs, but he and his team came up short in the Super Bowl.

 

[PsychoMan]

Eli Manning 2007