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Greg Abbott’s slowdown of trucks on Texas border has cost US Economy 9 billion (1 Viewer)

timschochet

timschochet

Footballguy
https://www.sacurrent.com/news/gov-greg-abbotts-slowdown-of-trucks-at-texas-border-cost-us-economy-9-billion-economist-says-28701805?media=AMP+HTML
 

9 billion to the US economy, 4 billion to the Texas economy. This is what happens when you try to interfere with trade on the border as a supposed means of fighting illegal immigration. All of those who are always insisting that we “secure the southern border”- this is just a hint of the disastrous cost of doing so- with little or no benefit. 

 
Snotbubbles said:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12291891/

"The article also finds that illegal immigrants and their own citizen children cost taxpayers an additional $12 to $16.2 billion annually for education, public services, and incarceration after deducting all local, state, and federal taxes paid in by them."

This is what happens when you don't have a sound immigration and enforcement policy.
Click to expand...
So we are talking about a $3-$7.2 billion dollar win here?

 
Snotbubbles said:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12291891/

"The article also finds that illegal immigrants and their own citizen children cost taxpayers an additional $12 to $16.2 billion annually for education, public services, and incarceration after deducting all local, state, and federal taxes paid in by them."

This is what happens when you don't have a sound immigration and enforcement policy.
Click to expand...
Umm, no: 

https://www.workingimmigrants.com/2006/12/new-texas-study-says-illegal-immigrants-are-net-benefit-to-economy/

I know that most people aren’t going to believe this, but illegal immigrants are actually a net benefit to our economy. Study after study has demonstrated this. 

 
timschochet said:
His information is wrong. See above. 
Click to expand...


No it's not.  

EDIT: Just make sure you understand the difference between what I posted about the negative effects on the healthcare system, and the study you posted on the economy.  The study I posted noted, "In the private sector, illegal aliens are found to save their employers and owners of capital about $1.5 billion more than U.S. workers lose due to wage depression."  But those savings on the economy are lost in other areas.  

 
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Snotbubbles said:
No it's not.  
Click to expand...
Yes it is. And it’s from 1995! Do you want me to link all the studies from the last 25 years that show the exact opposite? University of Arizona, University of Texas, etc etc. 

But- even if I accepted your study- we still can’t shut down the southern border! Even infringing upon it slightly, as Abbot did, cost us billions over a few short months!! You can’t shut it down. If you think illegals are that big a problem, find another solution. 

 
The period of time the economist measured for Abbott trying to sabotage the economy to own the libs was 10 days. The figure posted for how much cost that immigrants were contributing to the taxpayers was a full year. So no, it's not a "net win". 

For the record I don't believe either of those figures on their face.

However it is pretty apparent that Abbott would rather the economy suffer than allow Joe Biden a success. While that's not entirely surprising based on the discussions we've had here about the trade-off between economic success and the President's approval ratings, the fact that a governor would actively sabotage the economy, including that of his own state, is entirely beyond the pale.

Abbott: Actively sabotages the economy

GOP: "Look at how Biden is wrecking the economy!"

 
timschochet said:
Yes it is. And it’s from 1995! Do you want me to link all the studies from the last 25 years that show the exact opposite? University of Arizona, University of Texas, etc etc. 

But- even if I accepted your study- we still can’t shut down the southern border! Even infringing upon it slightly, as Abbot did, cost us billions over a few short months!! You can’t shut it down. If you think illegals are that big a problem, find another solution. 
Click to expand...


I would love for you to link studies.  But again, don't limit it to just the economy.  We need to look at total costs/benefits.  Don't just look at one area, please.  

We couldn't shut the border down 100%, but we should complete the wall and funnel any illegals to areas to assist in controlling the situation.  I get that there are some laws that you think the Executive Branch should just ignore but they have a duty to execute the laws.  They are failing in their duty and they will be paying for it in a few months and if they continue to fail at it will see sweeping changes in 2024.

 
Snotbubbles said:
I would love for you to link studies.  But again, don't limit it to just the economy.  We need to look at total costs/benefits.  Don't just look at one area, please.  

We couldn't shut the border down 100%, but we should complete the wall and funnel any illegals to areas to assist in controlling the situation.  I get that there are some laws that you think the Executive Branch should just ignore but they have a duty to execute the laws.  They are failing in their duty and they will be paying for it in a few months and if they continue to fail at it will see sweeping changes in 2024.
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1. I am going to limit it to the economy because that’s what this thread is about. I could make a wonderful moral argument to you about the intangible benefits of illegal immigration (I refer you to Ronald Reagan’s last speech as President on this very issue.) But I can’t provide facts for that- economy I can. 
 

2. Much of the information and studies on this subject have been compiled by Wikipedia: 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_impact_of_illegal_immigrants_in_the_United_States#:~:text=Research shows that undocumented immigrants,benefit consumers by reducing the

Key quote: 

Research shows that undocumented immigrants increase the size of the US economy, contribute to economic growth, enhance the welfare of natives, contribute more in tax revenue than they collect, reduce American firms’ incentives to offshore jobs and import foreign produced goods, and benefit consumers by reducing the prices of goods and services. 
 

3. Of course I agree with you that my attitude on this subject has and will lose elections. I know that my view is in the minority, always will be. But it’s what I know is right, and what the facts tell me, so what can I do? 

 
Grace Under Pressure said:
While that's not entirely surprising based on the discussions we've had here about the trade-off between economic success and the President's approval ratings, the fact that a governor would actively sabotage the economy, including that of his own state, is entirely beyond the pale.
Click to expand...
It is, but I'm betting there will be no consequences for this craven political move.

 
timschochet said:
1. I am going to limit it to the economy because that’s what this thread is about. I could make a wonderful moral argument to you about the intangible benefits of illegal immigration (I refer you to Ronald Reagan’s last speech as President on this very issue.) But I can’t provide facts for that- economy I can. 
 

2. Much of the information and studies on this subject have been compiled by Wikipedia: 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_impact_of_illegal_immigrants_in_the_United_States#:~:text=Research shows that undocumented immigrants,benefit consumers by reducing the

Key quote: 

Research shows that undocumented immigrants increase the size of the US economy, contribute to economic growth, enhance the welfare of natives, contribute more in tax revenue than they collect, reduce American firms’ incentives to offshore jobs and import foreign produced goods, and benefit consumers by reducing the prices of goods and services. 
 

3. Of course I agree with you that my attitude on this subject has and will lose elections. I know that my view is in the minority, always will be. But it’s what I know is right, and what the facts tell me, so what can I do? 
Click to expand...


Ok.  And for every benefit to the economy study you provide.  I'll provide a burden study.

Healthcare: https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2018/02/26/how-american-citizens-finance-health-care-for-undocumented-immigrants/?sh=744ba11e12c4

"All told, Americans cross-subsidize health care for unauthorized immigrants to the tune of $18.5 billion a year . Of this total, federal taxpayers provided $11.2 billion in subsidized care to unauthorized immigrants in 2016."

Schools: https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/op-eds/mass-immigration-also-burdens-our-public-schools

"Taxpayers bear the brunt of the education burden, particularly since immigrants aren't paying taxes commensurate with their children's education needs. Each year, LEP students cost schools roughly $59 billion."

Your economic impact probably needs to be in the $100B range just to break even on the burden illegals have on the system.

 
John123 said:
Workingimmigrants.com?   Come on dude.
Click to expand...
I will say that was my first reaction.  But I did open and read it and the data seems solid and non biased.  
But like anything, stats can be shaped to bolster many arguments.  And I would think workingimmigrants would know that play

 
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Snotbubbles said:
I would love for you to link studies.  But again, don't limit it to just the economy.  We need to look at total costs/benefits.  Don't just look at one area, please.  

We couldn't shut the border down 100%, but we should complete the wall and funnel any illegals to areas to assist in controlling the situation.  I get that there are some laws that you think the Executive Branch should just ignore but they have a duty to execute the laws.  They are failing in their duty and they will be paying for it in a few months and if they continue to fail at it will see sweeping changes in 2024.
Click to expand...
No, we should not complete the wall. For a party that is constantly complaining about wasteful spending of taxpayer money I find it ridiculous that they want to throw money away at idiotic ideas like a border wall. 

 
timschochet said:
https://www.sacurrent.com/news/gov-greg-abbotts-slowdown-of-trucks-at-texas-border-cost-us-economy-9-billion-economist-says-28701805?media=AMP+HTML
 

9 billion to the US economy, 4 billion to the Texas economy. This is what happens when you try to interfere with trade on the border as a supposed means of fighting illegal immigration. All of those who are always insisting that we “secure the southern border”- this is just a hint of the disastrous cost of doing so- with little or no benefit. 
Click to expand...
This is the result of open borders people not understanding  pushback.    You overwhelm people  the do stuff you might not like.   The worse it is the worse the pushback.

 
quick-hands said:
This is the result of open borders people not understanding  pushback.    You overwhelm people  the do stuff you might not like.   The worse it is the worse the pushback.
Click to expand...
Maybe when people do something stupid, you shouldn’t blame the ones who told them it was stupid. 

 
Snotbubbles said:
Ok.  And for every benefit to the economy study you provide.  I'll provide a burden study.

Healthcare: https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2018/02/26/how-american-citizens-finance-health-care-for-undocumented-immigrants/?sh=744ba11e12c4

"All told, Americans cross-subsidize health care for unauthorized immigrants to the tune of $18.5 billion a year . Of this total, federal taxpayers provided $11.2 billion in subsidized care to unauthorized immigrants in 2016."

Schools: https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/op-eds/mass-immigration-also-burdens-our-public-schools

"Taxpayers bear the brunt of the education burden, particularly since immigrants aren't paying taxes commensurate with their children's education needs. Each year, LEP students cost schools roughly $59 billion."

Your economic impact probably needs to be in the $100B range just to break even on the burden illegals have on the system.
Click to expand...
Your conclusion is not supported by the information you provided as you left out a key piece of information.   What is the economic multiplier of this spending?  What is the return on investment?   I know conservatives love to use military spending (where the multiplier is almost always below 1) as a proxy for all government spending to reject that there are economic benefits of government spending, but for real evaluation of these numbers we need to know how much is added to the economy for every dollar removed for such spending.   I'm guessing that the numbers are highly variable from place to place, but on average more than a dollar is returned to the economy in each of these cases.   Especially education spending.

Now one could argue that the costs and benefits are not evenly distributed.  That the middle class, especially lower middle class pay the costs while the upper class gets most of the economic benefits but that is pretty much by design of the very people putting raw numbers for spending in cost columns without considering the return on that investment.

 
Bottomfeeder Sports said:
Your conclusion is not supported by the information you provided as you left out a key piece of information.   What is the economic multiplier of this spending?  What is the return on investment?   I know conservatives love to use military spending (where the multiplier is almost always below 1) as a proxy for all government spending to reject that there are economic benefits of government spending, but for real evaluation of these numbers we need to know how much is added to the economy for every dollar removed for such spending.   I'm guessing that the numbers are highly variable from place to place, but on average more than a dollar is returned to the economy in each of these cases.   Especially education spending.

Now one could argue that the costs and benefits are not evenly distributed.  That the middle class, especially lower middle class pay the costs while the upper class gets most of the economic benefits but that is pretty much by design of the very people putting raw numbers for spending in cost columns without considering the return on that investment.
Click to expand...
Doesnt this presume that spending 18 billion in borrowed funds on illegal immigrant healthcare is the best economic multiplier since we are not factoring in opportunity cost? 

 
parasaurolophus said:
Doesnt this presume that spending 18 billion in borrowed funds on illegal immigrant healthcare is the best economic multiplier since we are not factoring in opportunity cost? 
Click to expand...
Sure there could be bigger bang for the buck spending possibilities.  But we should invest as a society in good things (health and education) that have positive returns on investment rather than wave them around as societal burdens.

 
Cowboysfan8 said:
It is 

🤷🏻‍♂️
Click to expand...
Even Sid Miller (Texas Ag Commissioner) can acknowledge reality on this.

They don't even have the authority to open the trucks, so they are basically doing standard "function" inspections already done as these vehicles come across the border.  

Abbott had touted his April 6 order as a crackdown on drug smuggling and human trafficking. But Texas Agriculture Commissioner Sid Miller, who like Abbott is a Republican, says the inspections did "nothing to stop the flow of illegal immigration or illegal drugs. I mean, absolutely zero."

That's because Abbott's inspections looked only at basic vehicle safety, such as the trucks' tires and brakes and lights — not their contents, Miller told NPR's Morning Edition.

"The governor's people have no authority to open the trucks," Miller said. Instead, he said, every truck undergoes inspections by federal and state agricultural agencies, as well as Customs and Border Protection. Those inspectors use X-ray machines, drug-sniffing dogs and other measures to ensure the cargo is legitimate, Miller added.
Click to expand...
Whole Interview

 
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