What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Harvard Business School Professor Goes to War Over $4 Worth of Ch (1 Viewer)

I'm not sure that Duan's English is all that great and that he understood everything right away.
Duan has been in the U.S. since age three ... he is a fluent and, for all intents and purposes, a native English speaker.
:confused:
Someone can be a native speaker of multiple languages. Any languages acquired before and during toddlerhood (and generally, anytime before the onset of puberty) are fluently-spoken native languages.
Why do you assume he is a native English speaker? You don't learn English by osmosis even if you live in the country.

 
While I would expect a business to offer the refund before being asked, I would only consider it doosh-level if they refused it after being asked. He agreed to a refund in his very next email, just not 3 times what he overcharged.
Yeah, but Duan undercut the amount (granted, only by a $1). Grove's right about making the phone call -- get all that kind of stuff worked out in the first 30 seconds.

Handled badly all around.
I may be giving Duan too much leeway here, but again assuming the best (that it was also just an honest mistake), he could have looked back at the original email to see how much he actually overcharged, saw all those numbers on the left right and came up with the $3 (missing the last item).

But yeah, neither one might actually have meant to sound as bad as they meant to in the beginning. We are all reading tone that may not have been intended. Phone call is the right call.

edit left/right

 
Last edited by a moderator:
You're assuming a lot here. Do you think he was faking the non-fluent accent and writing in his emails?
Not at all -- a lot of native English speakers write like that. Especially with electronic spell-checked media, and with being hurried and such.

 
I think the issue here is that everything doesn't have to be a class action suit. Sometimes there's a small dispute and it can be settled with a simple conversation and request to make it right. Mom and Pop's prices changed and the website lagged. Don't want to pay the $4, fine. You think the restaurant should pay a courtesy to all customers by changing its price posting policy, fine. You want to police it to an extent if they don't, fine.

But what ever happened to people having civil discussions about small matters?

 
Why do you assume he is a native English speaker? You don't learn English by osmosis even if you live in the country.
Going by his age on arrival to the country. Adults have a hard go of learning new languages, true (see the language acquisition link I provided upthread). But for small children, it is an entirely different matter. Duan would have to have been unusally sheltered to not pick up English as a school child. For one thing, he'd have to have gone to a school where only Chinese was spoken.

 
I'm not sure that Duan's English is all that great and that he understood everything right away.
Duan has been in the U.S. since age three ... he is a fluent and, for all intents and purposes, a native English speaker.
:confused:
Someone can be a native speaker of multiple languages. Any languages acquired before and during toddlerhood (and generally, anytime before the onset of puberty) are fluently-spoken native languages.
Why do you assume he is a native English speaker? You don't learn English by osmosis even if you live in the country.
Actually, if you're now in your thirties or forties and you lived in a country since age three and were incessantly surrounded by that country's native language in school, on the TV, and in the streets then, yeah, you would pretty much learn that country's native language by osmosis just like any other kid growing up in that country since birth would.

 
Why do you assume he is a native English speaker? You don't learn English by osmosis even if you live in the country.
Going by his age on arrival to the country. Adults have a hard go of learning new languages, true (see the language acquisition link I provided upthread). But for small children, it is an entirely different matter. Duan would have to have been unusally sheltered to not pick up English as a school child. For one thing, he'd have to have gone to a school where only Chinese was spoken.
Not out of the realm of possibility especially with immigrant parents. I assumed English wasn't his first language after reading his emails.

 
I'm not sure that Duan's English is all that great and that he understood everything right away.
Duan has been in the U.S. since age three ... he is a fluent and, for all intents and purposes, a native English speaker.
:confused:
Someone can be a native speaker of multiple languages. Any languages acquired before and during toddlerhood (and generally, anytime before the onset of puberty) are fluently-spoken native languages.
Why do you assume he is a native English speaker? You don't learn English by osmosis even if you live in the country.
Actually, if you're now in your thirties or forties and you lived in a country since age three and were incessantly surrounded by that country's native language in school, on the TV, and in the streets then, yeah, you would pretty much learn that country's native language by osmosis just like any other kid growing up in that country since birth would.
Not always true. Ever been to a China town in a major city?

 
I have no problem with thinking the guy has a beef. The owner acknowledged and offered the money back.
Cool ... wasn't aware of this. The restaurant fulfilled their obligation at that point, though they really need to get their menu fixed and/or clarified. Having different prices at different locations in the same city strikes me as shady-ish, but at least that can be clearly (?) advertised up front.

Where is the e-mail exchange everyone is talking about? Didn't see it linked in the OP.
They don't have different prices at different places in the same city. They have one price in Woburn, and another price in Brookline, a much more expensive place to live, and to operate a restaurant.

Edelman was on the website for the Woburn restaurant, ordered from the Brookline restaurant, and was overcharged $4.

He sent an email, the guy from the Woburn place responded with an apology, and an offer to email a new menu. It was all very polite. Edelman didn't ask for a refund, and Woburn guy didn't offer one (perhaps a mistake, but that's really splitting hairs here). Edelman's next response reminded them that under Mass law they had committed a serious violation, and suggested they refund him three times the overage, under Massachusetts consumer protection statute---this clown was asking for punitive damages.

It's worth a read, I am sure after reading it, you'll stop looking for reasons to back this POS:

http://www.boston.com/food-dining/restaurants/2014/12/09/harvard-business-school-professor-goes-war-over-worth-chinese-food/KfMaEhab6uUY1COCnTbrXP/story.html

 
Not out of the realm of possibility especially with immigrant parents. I assumed English wasn't his first language after reading his emails.
Duan speaks fluent English at the beginning and end of this video. Sounds just like any other guy from that neck of the woods. Language was no specific issue in dealing with Edelman. Now, he might have hurriedly glossed over Edelman's initial query. Duan might have erred in thinking the "oops, website's not updated" excuse would satisfy Edelman. But it was not a language issue.

 
It's worth a read, I am sure after reading it, you'll stop looking for reasons to back this POS:
I have read all that since. I've always acknowledged that Edelman was dooshy, expecially with whipping out the triple-damages stuff. I just think Edelman was in the right, and that Duan commited a business faux pas (though it will probably ultimately work out in his favor).

 
I'm not sure that Duan's English is all that great and that he understood everything right away.
Duan has been in the U.S. since age three ... he is a fluent and, for all intents and purposes, a native English speaker.
:confused:
Someone can be a native speaker of multiple languages. Any languages acquired before and during toddlerhood (and generally, anytime before the onset of puberty) are fluently-spoken native languages.
Why do you assume he is a native English speaker? You don't learn English by osmosis even if you live in the country.
Actually, if you're now in your thirties or forties and you lived in a country since age three and were incessantly surrounded by that country's native language in school, on the TV, and in the streets then, yeah, you would pretty much learn that country's native language by osmosis just like any other kid growing up in that country since birth would.
Not always true. Ever been to a China town in a major city?
Interestingly enough, I'm typing this from a Chinatown in a major city. Recent emigres and old people who came to America when they were adults (and were thus less apt to pick up a new language) don't speak English. Chinese-American adults who were raised in America since they were a toddler do speak English, but most of them have long since moved out of the Chinatown that is typically occupied by more recent emigres.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
It's worth a read, I am sure after reading it, you'll stop looking for reasons to back this POS:
I have read all that since. I've always acknowledged that Edelman was dooshy, expecially with whipping out the triple-damages stuff. I just think Edelman was in the right, and that Duan commited a business faux pas (though it will probably ultimately work out in his favor).
Edelman also, after Duan had offered a full refund, mentioned that he had notified the authorities, and was basically casually threatening Duan with a class action suit, wondering how many other consumers could be in line for punitive damages, and on and on.

Because of an outdated online menu.

Because of $4.

Whatever minor mistake Duan may or may not have made, I think you've made you point, and frankly, it's now time to get on board that this guy is terrible. Continually saying, "Well, yeah, he was dooshy, BUT......." kind of makes one think you really don't think Edelman is the problem here.

 
chet said:
I emailed him the following:

SUBJ: Get a Life

They're hard working people and you're harassing them over $4?


No wonder you spent your life collecting degrees and work as a professor. You don't have enough common sense to succeed in the real world.
update?

 
Never mind, just realized you have read the emails, and remain determined to back a despicable human.
"Despicable" is overselling it. That would require actually filing suit and working to shut the restaurant down or something.

Edelman was in no way wrong for going after some form of redress. The way he went about it was wrong and dooshy, but not the bare fact that he took it up with Duan. Should have used the phone, or gone in person.

Flip side -- Duan should've done a better job assessing what was happening after the initial e-mail. I was a lot more than a "pardon, but the the website is out-of-date" e-mail.

...

Looking into Duan's background, his forte seems to be celebrity bartending, and not so much running the floor of his family's restaurant. He surely has lots of experience running the place just being in the family, but he doesn't strike me as having that conciliatory peace-making personality flloor managers need.

 
Whatever minor mistake Duan may or may not have made, I think you've made you point, and frankly, it's now time to get on board that this guy is terrible. Continually saying, "Well, yeah, he was dooshy, BUT......." kind of makes one think you really don't think Edelman is the problem here.
Forget Edelman for a second.

Say this happens to you. You wouldn't feel like it was out of bounds to raise the issue with the restaurant over the phone, would you? Granted, you may well not care to pursue it.

 
chet said:
I emailed him the following:

SUBJ: Get a Life

They're hard working people and you're harassing them over $4?


No wonder you spent your life collecting degrees and work as a professor. You don't have enough common sense to succeed in the real world.
update?
chet is in jail.

 
Edelman also, after Duan had offered a full refund, mentioned that he had notified the authorities, and was basically casually threatening Duan with a class action suit, wondering how many other consumers could be in line for punitive damages, and on and on.
Because of an outdated online menu.

Because of $4.
Agreed about all the bolded.

 
Why do you assume he is a native English speaker? You don't learn English by osmosis even if you live in the country.
Going by his age on arrival to the country. Adults have a hard go of learning new languages, true (see the language acquisition link I provided upthread). But for small children, it is an entirely different matter. Duan would have to have been unusally sheltered to not pick up English as a school child. For one thing, he'd have to have gone to a school where only Chinese was spoken.
Not out of the realm of possibility especially with immigrant parents. I assumed English wasn't his first language after reading his emails.
I went to High school with a kid that was born here and could hardly speak English. He grew up in a very insular Hispanic community. He didn't really start learning English until Jr. High. I imagine it improved over time, but if you miss the early years it can be a struggle.

 
Ugh, DougB.
Just don't think it's cut-and-dried in one direction :shrug: I have no choice but to own that doosh-ness, and remember academically (not viscerally) that others consider it dooshy and the obviously incorrect.
Nothing ever is cut and dry. If they guy did not have a point, he would have dropped it. But having a point doesn't give you the right to be a complete and utter buffoon about it.

 
Nothing ever is cut and dry. If they guy did not have a point, he would have dropped it. But having a point doesn't give you the right to be a complete and utter buffoon about it.
Yes, and I agree. I've already posted that Grove's phone call suggestion was the way to go.

 
He sure did order a lot of food from Ran Duan

You might even say he was...

(_)

( _)>⌐■-■

(⌐■_■)

Hungry Like The Wolf

 
Duan is hilarious, and likely pretty sharp. I like when he basically says that he'd be happy to give Edelman the very redress he is demanding, but just needs to have the "authorities" that Edelman called sign off on it.

 
While I would expect a business to offer the refund before being asked, I would only consider it doosh-level if they refused it after being asked. He agreed to a refund in his very next email, just not 3 times what he overcharged.
Yeah, but Duan undercut the amount (granted, only by a $1). Grove's right about making the phone call -- get all that kind of stuff worked out in the first 30 seconds.

Handled badly all around.
Because the prof was looking at the wrong website. Different locations had difference prices. I think the $3 was the correct amount and added to the frustration and confusion.
Harvard guy is a doosh, but that excuse from the restaurant is horse manure

 
Duan should get even with Edelman. From what I've gathered, the standard Chinese response is to put pee-pee in Edelman's Coke.

 
Duan is hilarious, and likely pretty sharp. I like when he basically says that he'd be happy to give Edelman the very redress he is demanding, but just needs to have the "authorities" that Edelman called sign off on it.
This was perfect. "Oh, you called the police? I will gladly deal with them and not your crazy ###."

 
Duan is hilarious, and likely pretty sharp. I like when he basically says that he'd be happy to give Edelman the very redress he is demanding, but just needs to have the "authorities" that Edelman called sign off on it.
... I actually read that from Duan as being deadly serious.

Your interpretation is more interesting.

 
Duan is hilarious, and likely pretty sharp. I like when he basically says that he'd be happy to give Edelman the very redress he is demanding, but just needs to have the "authorities" that Edelman called sign off on it.
... I actually read that from Duan as being deadly serious.

Your interpretation is more interesting.
I read it as serious too. You've got a Harvard prof quoting statutes to you and threatening you. He calls the authorities. I would do the same damn thing at that point. If you bring the big guns I'm done working with you directly toward a resolution.
 
As an attorney, he should probably be aware that threatening criminal action or presentation to gain an advantage in a civil matter is an ethical violation

 
This effing dipwad is 33 years old, in his 7th year of teaching at Harvard. Let's be honest. This arrogant ##### hasn't held a real job for one single day of his life. He makes his living by huffing and puffing about a bunch of theoretical crap that doesn't make one iota of difference. To any one. I hope he gets run over by a bus.
Aren't you a CPA or something? It's not like you're out there building skyscrapers and saving lives.

A guy who gets companies to stop unauthorized tracking, stop installing malware and to protect against the selling of contact info sounds like a fella who would be lauded in the FFA.

 
This effing dipwad is 33 years old, in his 7th year of teaching at Harvard. Let's be honest. This arrogant ##### hasn't held a real job for one single day of his life. He makes his living by huffing and puffing about a bunch of theoretical crap that doesn't make one iota of difference. To any one. I hope he gets run over by a bus.
Aren't you a CPA or something? It's not like you're out there building skyscrapers and saving lives.

A guy who gets companies to stop unauthorized tracking, stop installing malware and to protect against the selling of contact info sounds like a fella who would be lauded in the FFA.
We don't cheer for superheroes who go after little old ladies who are double parked for 30 seconds while they drop off a box of donations at Goodwill though.
 
Count me in the camp that thinks Duan was ####### with Edelman.

Edelman appears to legitimately file an email complaint. No one responds. He sends a second email, to which Duan responds and offers a new menu. If Edelman comes back and asks for a $4 refund, I bet this story ends. But he doesn't, he comes back with citing Massachusetts law code sections and asking for 3x the difference, basically threatening a lawsuit. At this point, I think Duan starts ####### with him, like the guy who submits a drawing of a spider instead of paying his bill. At least that's how I read all of the emails from there forward. Edelman should've just stopped responding, but maybe couldn't contain himself.

 
This effing dipwad is 33 years old, in his 7th year of teaching at Harvard. Let's be honest. This arrogant ##### hasn't held a real job for one single day of his life. He makes his living by huffing and puffing about a bunch of theoretical crap that doesn't make one iota of difference. To any one. I hope he gets run over by a bus.
Aren't you a CPA or something? It's not like you're out there building skyscrapers and saving lives.

A guy who gets companies to stop unauthorized tracking, stop installing malware and to protect against the selling of contact info sounds like a fella who would be lauded in the FFA.
I have private clients who pay me. yesterday I got the state of Montana to dismiss over $650k in taxes, interest, and penalties for someone. I deliver value, not hype.

 
Harvard guy did a variation on "Do you know who I am"? He wanted to big time the restaurant guy, have him quake in the presence of the superior intellect and training before him. He needed affirmation from the little guy, and he thought he deserved it because he was sharing his valuable expertise. this is a classic example of being in the right and handling it so poorly you morph into the wrong. Hell, even his community of like thinking highly privileged folks at Harvard are embarrassed by his behavior.

Now the Chinese gentleman, he too has something to learn about business interaction, but I find no sense in focusing on that. It is as if a person presents in the emergency room with a gunshot wound and some mild eczema or a wart. I treat the gunshot wound and take no note of the skin irritation.

 
Apologies if this is a Piston Honda...

Harvard Business Professor Defends Rant About Restaurant Overcharging Him $4

A Harvard Business School professor is in the news after a series of emails between him and the manager of a local Chinese restaurant — a self-described "mom and pop" business — was published by Boston.com.

HBS associate professor Ben Edelman criticized Chinese restaurant Sichuan Garden and restauranteur Ran Duan, who manages the connecting Baldwin Bar, for supposedly overcharging him $4 on his takeout order. Edelman said he had alerted local Boston authorities about Sichuan Garden's out-of-date website and Duan's initial offer to only refund him $3.

Here's how he defended his emails in a statement to Business Insider:

I think the Boston.com piece totally misses the benefit that all diligent consumers provide in looking for overcharges and other errors. We all rely on trust in our daily lives — that when sales tax is added, it actually applies and equals the specified amount; that the meter in a taxi shows the correct amount provided by law and correctly measures the actual distance; that when you order takeout, the price you see online matches the amount you pay in the restaurant. We all take most of this for granted. It would be a lot of trouble to all have to check these things day in and day out. That's exactly why we should be concerned when folks fall short — because hardly anyone ever checks, so these problems can go unnoticed and can affect, in aggregate, large amounts.

If you look at my other work, e.g. http://www.benedelman.org/airfare-advertising/, you'll see I've been pretty diligent in holding large companies accountable for their false statements of price and other attempts to overcharge passengers. Should all small businesses get a free pass? Some people seem to think so, I wonder if that really makes sense.

Notably, though not emphasized in the Boston.com piece, the restaurant at issue knew the website prices had been "out of date for quite some time." At what point should they do something about it? I'm pleased to have at least gotten the problem fixed for the benefit of others.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/ben-edelman-defends-his-decision-to-fight-restaurant-overcharge-2014-12#ixzz3LWJGZfyl
 
Harvard guy did a variation on "Do you know who I am"? He wanted to big time the restaurant guy, have him quake in the presence of the superior intellect and training before him. He needed affirmation from the little guy, and he thought he deserved it because he was sharing his valuable expertise. this is a classic example of being in the right and handling it so poorly you morph into the wrong. Hell, even his community of like thinking highly privileged folks at Harvard are embarrassed by his behavior.

Now the Chinese gentleman, he too has something to learn about business interaction, but I find no sense in focusing on that. It is as if a person presents in the emergency room with a gunshot wound and some mild eczema or a wart. I treat the gunshot wound and take no note of the skin irritation.
20+ years ago, I was in Boston on a rugby trip--playing MIT, HBS etc. One night at the bar, I asked a girl where she was from and she responded, "Harvard." So lame.

 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top