HBO - Song of Ice&Fire Series -Varsity Thread - no TV only whiners (1 Viewer)

[babydemon90]

Almost finished with my Crows re-read. This book is actually quite good. I think all the stink was due to the wait and missing characters. I can see why people would be angry, I certainly would have been, but the book is pretty quality and gives more color to the stories.

The problem with Crows is that it suffers in comparison to the previous 3 books. It tends to meander a bit. It's still better than any of the wheel of time books for instance. But it's not as good as the 1st three of this series.

I just finished the 4th Wheel of Time book. I might just read a synopsis and be done with it.

Having forced myself to finish the series, I recommend this course of action.

Despite the meandering in the middle books, I still prefer the WoT series to this one. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy them both, and they are both good. I like the WoT characters/story better though.

WOT is my favorite series ever, but it does more than a little bit of meandering between about book 4 or 5 and book 10 or so. Everything contained in those 6 or 7 books could have easily been covered in 3 books. The pace and quality recover very well in the last couple (which Brandon Sanderson wrote much of)

Quick hijack - is Sanderson's stormlight archive worth starting? Got book one for Christmas, but didn't know if I should bother.

I like it so far.

 

[NewlyRetired]

I am just starting the books and am about 1/4 the way through book one, Game of Thrones.

Is there an online source that I can use to help me keep the characters and locations straight with out giving away spoilers? There are so many to keep track of that I have to keep looking backwards in the story to remember who is who.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

I am just starting the books and am about 1/4 the way through book one, Game of Thrones.

Is there an online source that I can use to help me keep the characters and locations straight with out giving away spoilers? There are so many to keep track of that I have to keep looking backwards in the story to remember who is who.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/

 

[Uruk-Hai]

I'd stay away from they wikis and almost everything else unless you figure out how to set the spoiler tags on that site. And even that won't keep you spoiler-free all of the time as the home pages are liable to have spoilers all over them.

The appendices in the back of each book only gives you character info for the start of that particular book.

 

[psychobillies]

I am just starting the books and am about 1/4 the way through book one, Game of Thrones.

Is there an online source that I can use to help me keep the characters and locations straight with out giving away spoilers? There are so many to keep track of that I have to keep looking backwards in the story to remember who i

towerofthehand is a good one. They let you set your scope based on how many books you've read and how much of the show you've seen.

 

[NewlyRetired]

Thanks for the tips!

 

[Swing 51]

Yep Tower of the Hand is your best resource

 

[Uruk-Hai]

I am just starting the books and am about 1/4 the way through book one, Game of Thrones.

Is there an online source that I can use to help me keep the characters and locations straight with out giving away spoilers? There are so many to keep track of that I have to keep looking backwards in the story to remember who i

towerofthehand is a good one. They let you set your scope based on how many books you've read and how much of the show you've seen.

I was gonna suggest this one. Just know that some of the front page article titles can be spoiler-ish, even with the spoiler wall set. I'd set my spoiler scope, then bookmark the page "inside" where the charcter info is.

 

[NewlyRetired]

I am just starting the books and am about 1/4 the way through book one, Game of Thrones.

Is there an online source that I can use to help me keep the characters and locations straight with out giving away spoilers? There are so many to keep track of that I have to keep looking backwards in the story to remember who i

towerofthehand is a good one. They let you set your scope based on how many books you've read and how much of the show you've seen.

I was gonna suggest this one. Just know that some of the front page article titles can be spoiler-ish, even with the spoiler wall set. I'd set my spoiler scope, then bookmark the page "inside" where the charcter info is.

Thanks! I could not figure out how to set my scope when first using this page but then once I registered, the feature became available. This site looks perfect.

I like the no non sense cliff notes like summaries of the chapters as well. Those will serve nicely in case I don't read for a while and need a quick refresher.

Great site and very well designed with the ability to set your scope!

As a side related question, does the TV series follow each book in order, or does the tv series just use the names, locations and basic plot points of the books and then tell their own related story (similar to how The Walking Dead is handled between comics and tv)?

 

[CBusAlex]

As a side related question, does the TV series follow each book in order, or does the tv series just use the names, locations and basic plot points of the books and then tell their own related story (similar to how The Walking Dead is handled between comics and tv)?

It follows the books about as closely as a TV adaptation could be expected. There are naturally some parts that get cut or reorganized to fit within the constraints of the medium.

 

[NewlyRetired]

As a side related question, does the TV series follow each book in order, or does the tv series just use the names, locations and basic plot points of the books and then tell their own related story (similar to how The Walking Dead is handled between comics and tv)?

It follows the books about as closely as a TV adaptation could be expected. There are naturally some parts that get cut or reorganized to fit within the constraints of the medium.

does each season follow one book or is it multiple seasons per book (plot wise)

 

[CBusAlex]

As a side related question, does the TV series follow each book in order, or does the tv series just use the names, locations and basic plot points of the books and then tell their own related story (similar to how The Walking Dead is handled between comics and tv)?

It follows the books about as closely as a TV adaptation could be expected. There are naturally some parts that get cut or reorganized to fit within the constraints of the medium.

does each season follow one book or is it multiple seasons per book (plot wise)

Yes/no.

Season 1 = book 1

Season 2 = book 2, mostly

Season 3 = first part of book 3

Season 4 = rest of book 3, parts of 4 & 5

 

[NewlyRetired]

Early in book 1, they find the Direwolf pups.

Jon, the ******* son, convinces them to save the initial 5 pups they find, 1 for each of Eddard Starks natural 5 children.

But when I look at the Stark family tree on site, it shows only 3 natural children

http://towerofthehand.com/books/characters.html

Am I confused on how many children the Starks have or are the other two children not listed in that link unimportant and the link is not meant to be a tree but just more a representation of the important characters?

 

[Sinn Fein]

Early in book 1, they find the Direwolf pups.

Jon, the ******* son, convinces them to save the initial 5 pups they find, 1 for each of Eddard Starks natural 5 children.

But when I look at the Stark family tree on site, it shows only 3 natural children

http://towerofthehand.com/books/characters.html

Am I confused on how many children the Starks have or are the other two children not listed in that link unimportant and the link is not meant to be a tree but just more a representation of the important characters?

Robb, Sansa, Arya, Brandon, Rickon

Jon Snow

 

[Moe.]

No idea what is up with that chart. Ned has six kids if you include Jon. Is there a scope adjustment on that website or something?

 

[NewlyRetired]

No idea what is up with that chart. Ned has six kids if you include Jon. Is there a scope adjustment on that website or something?

yes there is a scope but I adjusted the scope to open it up in case that was the issue and the chart did not change.

I don't think it was meant to be a family tree. I think it might be just meant to show important characters in book 1.

Jon is on that chart by the way if you look way to the right.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

Just seems to be a crappy graphic as it also doesn't have Tommen under the Baratheons.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

No idea what is up with that chart. Ned has six kids if you include Jon. Is there a scope adjustment on that website or something?

yes there is a scope but I adjusted the scope to open it up in case that was the issue and the chart did not change.

I don't think it was meant to be a family tree. I think it might be just meant to show important characters in book 1.

Jon is on that chart by the way if you look way to the right.

That doesn't seem right either. Robb Stark is pretty damn important in the first book. Rickon Stark is not. I wouldn't waste much time trying to figure out the reasoning.

 

[NewlyRetired]

No idea what is up with that chart. Ned has six kids if you include Jon. Is there a scope adjustment on that website or something?

yes there is a scope but I adjusted the scope to open it up in case that was the issue and the chart did not change.

I don't think it was meant to be a family tree. I think it might be just meant to show important characters in book 1.

Jon is on that chart by the way if you look way to the right.

That doesn't seem right either. Robb Stark is pretty damn important in the first book. Rickon Stark is not. I wouldn't waste much time trying to figure out the reasoning.

ok.

I was just looking for a resource to help me keep everything straight with out spoilers and the first thing I used it for I found confusing. It is a shame because the site looks perfect for what I want with the scope adjustments.

 

[shuke]

You will drive yourself completely mad trying to keep track of every person mentioned and their connections.

Just use the back of the book. You will figure out soon enough who is important enough to keep track of.

 

[Uruk-Hai]

You will drive yourself completely mad trying to keep track of every person mentioned and their connections.

Just use the back of the book. You will figure out soon enough who is important enough to keep track of.

Yeah, I'm usually pretty anal about having all of the characters in a book straight in my head, but I stopped worrying about it sometime during book 1. If I wanted to know, I'd flip to the back. I still can't keep the Florents and Spicers straight in my mind.

I'd still suggest using the appendices in the back of the book you're reading at the time if you really want to be spoiler-free and know only what the author wanted the reader to know. I'm not sure if you're reading a paper book or an e-reader, but it can't take any longer to do that than look someone up on the internet.

In any case, enjoy. If you have questions, feel free to fire away here - there are some really knowledgeable posters in this thread.

 

[Ash]

After reading this entire thing, it's abundantly clear that GRRM has no clue where he's heading with his own story. That's absolutely amazing to me, but if also makes me wish I have never heard of him or his series, and had never read it.

After getting hooked on his series and on WOT long before they were complete, I've made it a more recent habit of mine to never start a series that wasn't already completed.

This.

It's taken 20 years for GRRM to produce 5 books of 7 in a series, with the time to publish and quality both heading in the wrong direction. When you ask readers to buy part of a story, I think you owe them the rest of the story in a reasonable timeframe.

I'm also not likely to start an unfinished series again any time soon, which is not a good thing for writers overall, those who can reliably publish a book every year or two might have sales deferred until the end of a series. Or maybe nobody but renesauz and I care.

 

[The Z Machine]

I've read must of the books (except the last one) and I stopped reading because the HBO show is so much better than the books.

I'm not going to read this thread, but in my opinion GRRM should simply be part of the staff of writers for the series. He can lead plot and character development, but leave the rest to the HBO staff.

 

[Buckna]

Almost finished with my Crows re-read. This book is actually quite good. I think all the stink was due to the wait and missing characters. I can see why people would be angry, I certainly would have been, but the book is pretty quality and gives more color to the stories.

The problem with Crows is that it suffers in comparison to the previous 3 books. It tends to meander a bit. It's still better than any of the wheel of time books for instance. But it's not as good as the 1st three of this series.

I just finished the 4th Wheel of Time book. I might just read a synopsis and be done with it.

Having forced myself to finish the series, I recommend this course of action.

Despite the meandering in the middle books, I still prefer the WoT series to this one. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy them both, and they are both good. I like the WoT characters/story better though.

WOT is my favorite series ever, but it does more than a little bit of meandering between about book 4 or 5 and book 10 or so. Everything contained in those 6 or 7 books could have easily been covered in 3 books. The pace and quality recover very well in the last couple (which Brandon Sanderson wrote much of)

Quick hijack - is Sanderson's stormlight archive worth starting? Got book one for Christmas, but didn't know if I should bother.

No idea...haven't read anything else from Sanderson, but he did a pretty good job finishing up WOT and is on my short list of guys I want to read sometime in the not-too-distant future. Been reading some of the newer Goodkind Richard and Khalan novels. (The Sword of truth series from Goodkind is excellant...the very first book, Wizards First Rule, being among my all time favorites)

I've read a lot of the Sword of Truth series, but stopped when Goodkind said it was done. Then he must have figured out that his name only really worked for SoT, and started writting them again. I've enjoyed the books, but I did find that they got rather repetitive, he definitely seemed to write to a formula.

First six SoT are excellent, goes downhill fast and finishing Chainfire trilogy is really more a labor of love for the story and characters. He devolves into really loving long, meandering speeches and repeating the same themes over and over but there was some good in there though. 1,2,4 & 6 are some of my favorite books ever, very well done.

Newer books have been disappointing except for the prequel book about the first confessor. Thought that was good and closer to the quality of the earlier books.

 

[dparker713]

After reading this entire thing, it's abundantly clear that GRRM has no clue where he's heading with his own story. That's absolutely amazing to me, but if also makes me wish I have never heard of him or his series, and had never read it.

After getting hooked on his series and on WOT long before they were complete, I've made it a more recent habit of mine to never start a series that wasn't already completed.

This.

It's taken 20 years for GRRM to produce 5 books of 7 in a series, with the time to publish and quality both heading in the wrong direction. When you ask readers to buy part of a story, I think you owe them the rest of the story in a reasonable timeframe.

I'm also not likely to start an unfinished series again any time soon, which is not a good thing for writers overall, those who can reliably publish a book every year or two might have sales deferred until the end of a series. Or maybe nobody but renesauz and I care.

I realize there are plenty of books/series out there, but this seems foolish to me. If the individual works are good in and of themselves, I think you'd be depriving yourself just to try to gain some certainty.

 

[babydemon90]

Almost finished with my Crows re-read. This book is actually quite good. I think all the stink was due to the wait and missing characters. I can see why people would be angry, I certainly would have been, but the book is pretty quality and gives more color to the stories.

The problem with Crows is that it suffers in comparison to the previous 3 books. It tends to meander a bit. It's still better than any of the wheel of time books for instance. But it's not as good as the 1st three of this series.

I just finished the 4th Wheel of Time book. I might just read a synopsis and be done with it.

Having forced myself to finish the series, I recommend this course of action.

Despite the meandering in the middle books, I still prefer the WoT series to this one. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy them both, and they are both good. I like the WoT characters/story better though.

WOT is my favorite series ever, but it does more than a little bit of meandering between about book 4 or 5 and book 10 or so. Everything contained in those 6 or 7 books could have easily been covered in 3 books. The pace and quality recover very well in the last couple (which Brandon Sanderson wrote much of)

Quick hijack - is Sanderson's stormlight archive worth starting? Got book one for Christmas, but didn't know if I should bother.

No idea...haven't read anything else from Sanderson, but he did a pretty good job finishing up WOT and is on my short list of guys I want to read sometime in the not-too-distant future. Been reading some of the newer Goodkind Richard and Khalan novels. (The Sword of truth series from Goodkind is excellant...the very first book, Wizards First Rule, being among my all time favorites)

I've read a lot of the Sword of Truth series, but stopped when Goodkind said it was done. Then he must have figured out that his name only really worked for SoT, and started writting them again. I've enjoyed the books, but I did find that they got rather repetitive, he definitely seemed to write to a formula.

First six SoT are excellent, goes downhill fast and finishing Chainfire trilogy is really more a labor of love for the story and characters. He devolves into really loving long, meandering speeches and repeating the same themes over and over but there was some good in there though. 1,2,4 & 6 are some of my favorite books ever, very well done.

Newer books have been disappointing except for the prequel book about the first confessor. Thought that was good and closer to the quality of the earlier books.

Really? I liked the SoT series at first, it tailed off at the end obviously - but I thought the prequel book was just repetitive, over explaining everything - it just didn't hit me like the initial few did..

In fairness, I haven't re-read the initial few in a while, so I may not enjoy them so much now.

 

[sn0mm1s]

I've read must of the books (except the last one) and I stopped reading because the HBO show is so much better than the books.

I'm not going to read this thread, but in my opinion GRRM should simply be part of the staff of writers for the series. He can lead plot and character development, but leave the rest to the HBO staff.

No way, the series has swung and missed at a number of events that are pretty important *and* left out/edited some scenes that absolutely should not have been changed. The more it deviates from the books the more goofy, nonsensical plot lines get introduced. Now, I am not saying that the last two books were as compelling a read as the first 3. The sprawl of characters weighs down the series (and really, I can't think of a series with more characters or even similar number of characters that doesn't suffer from this) but the overall quality all hinges on how the series is wrapped up. If you have read any of Martin's other works the ending will be satisfactory but by no means Hollywood or even necessarily happy.

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

After reading this entire thing, it's abundantly clear that GRRM has no clue where he's heading with his own story. That's absolutely amazing to me, but if also makes me wish I have never heard of him or his series, and had never read it.

After getting hooked on his series and on WOT long before they were complete, I've made it a more recent habit of mine to never start a series that wasn't already completed.

This.

It's taken 20 years for GRRM to produce 5 books of 7 in a series, with the time to publish and quality both heading in the wrong direction. When you ask readers to buy part of a story, I think you owe them the rest of the story in a reasonable timeframe.

I'm also not likely to start an unfinished series again any time soon, which is not a good thing for writers overall, those who can reliably publish a book every year or two might have sales deferred until the end of a series. Or maybe nobody but renesauz and I care.

Dragons is pretty great. He published the first 3 pretty timely.

 

[Abrantes]

After reading this entire thing, it's abundantly clear that GRRM has no clue where he's heading with his own story. That's absolutely amazing to me, but if also makes me wish I have never heard of him or his series, and had never read it.

After getting hooked on his series and on WOT long before they were complete, I've made it a more recent habit of mine to never start a series that wasn't already completed.

This.

It's taken 20 years for GRRM to produce 5 books of 7 in a series, with the time to publish and quality both heading in the wrong direction. When you ask readers to buy part of a story, I think you owe them the rest of the story in a reasonable timeframe.

I'm also not likely to start an unfinished series again any time soon, which is not a good thing for writers overall, those who can reliably publish a book every year or two might have sales deferred until the end of a series. Or maybe nobody but renesauz and I care.

Dragons is pretty great. He published the first 3 pretty timely.

Yeah, well...that's just like, your opinion, man.

 

[renesauz]

After reading this entire thing, it's abundantly clear that GRRM has no clue where he's heading with his own story. That's absolutely amazing to me, but if also makes me wish I have never heard of him or his series, and had never read it.

After getting hooked on his series and on WOT long before they were complete, I've made it a more recent habit of mine to never start a series that wasn't already completed.

This.

It's taken 20 years for GRRM to produce 5 books of 7 in a series, with the time to publish and quality both heading in the wrong direction. When you ask readers to buy part of a story, I think you owe them the rest of the story in a reasonable timeframe.

I'm also not likely to start an unfinished series again any time soon, which is not a good thing for writers overall, those who can reliably publish a book every year or two might have sales deferred until the end of a series. Or maybe nobody but renesauz and I care.

I realize there are plenty of books/series out there, but this seems foolish to me. If the individual works are good in and of themselves, I think you'd be depriving yourself just to try to gain some certainty.

It would be one thing if each book in and of itself was self-contained, having it's own unique story to tell with only loose connections to the next, but that's not the deal here. This is ONE CONTINUOUS story. Size and length dictate the end of one book and the start of the next, not the conclusion of major storylines. IE: the individual books are NOT good in and of themselves, because they really are NOT individual books, simply chapters in one VERY long book.

 

[thecatch]

Just finished a Knight of the Seven Kingdoms (the dunk and egg compilation). I thought it was fantastic. Kind a nice break from the main set of books that are sort of creaking under the weight of all the complex narratives Martin has going at any given time.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Wasn't it originally just going to be 3 books? Should have stuck with that.

 

[Chadstroma]

For some reason, I never considered something....

What do we expect of Davos Seaworth? Does he melt away as a character? Does he have enough of a storyline to carry on by himself since his has always been about Stannis? Do we care?

 

[Cold Dead Hands]

Wasn't it originally just going to be 3 books? Should have stuck with that.

GRRM fell in love with adding perspective characters so we ended up getting bogged down with characters like Brienne, Cersei, all of Dorne, etc. I would have liked it if he had just stayed with the PoV characters from book 1. Most of the other story lines could be handled in a few lines of exposition.

 

[Gr00vus]

For some reason, I never considered something....

What do we expect of Davos Seaworth? Does he melt away as a character? Does he have enough of a storyline to carry on by himself since his has always been about Stannis? Do we care?

He's tied up with whatever goes on with Rickon I figure. I think they get brought back in somehow - isn't Rickon now the legitimate lord of Winterfell (since Bran is a tree)? Shaggydog needs to bring the hammer down on some people at least.

 

[sn0mm1s]

For some reason, I never considered something....

What do we expect of Davos Seaworth? Does he melt away as a character? Does he have enough of a storyline to carry on by himself since his has always been about Stannis? Do we care?

He's tied up with whatever goes on with Rickon I figure. I think they get brought back in somehow - isn't Rickon now the legitimate lord of Winterfell (since Bran is a tree)? Shaggydog needs to bring the hammer down on some people at least.

Presumably, if we believe Jojen's Green Dreams, the Starks rise again. The only way I see that happening is if Rickon survives and rules Winterfell. I think we can then assume Davos goes to Skagos, doesn't get killed and eaten, and brings Rickon back to Winterfell (or more likely White Harbor per Manderley's request).

 

[sn0mm1s]

Wasn't it originally just going to be 3 books? Should have stuck with that.

IIRC, 3 was ditched very early on, before he even finished the first book.

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

Rickon's foreshadowing is that he's been pretty traumatized. He may not be the ruler winterfell needs ....

 

[Uruk-Hai]

There's also a letter floating around that Robb had written up naming Jon his heir until he got his own kid. Robb wrote it under the assumption that Bran & Rickon were dead. Littlefinger (and the majority of Westeros) thinks Sansa if the heir to Winterfell, though she's been accused of regicide. Bolton claims "Arya" is the rightful heir. And if Jeyne turns up pregnant, too, the lawyers in Westeros are gonna have a field day fighting all of the claims.

 

[sn0mm1s]

There's also a letter floating around that Robb had written up naming Jon his heir until he got his own kid. Robb wrote it under the assumption that Bran & Rickon were dead. Littlefinger thinks Sansa if the heir to Winterfell, though she's been accused of regicide. And if Jeyne turns up pregnant, too, the lawyers in Westeros are gonna have a field day fighting all of the claims.

Even if we assume that letter exists - legitimizing Jon makes him a Targaryen. I really can't see the series ending without Jon's parentage being revealed and if that is the case, he won't be a Stark. If Sansa is the heir another name will rule Winterfell once she is wed. I am positive Jeyne isn't pregnant, her mom prevented that from happening. The only one left (unless Bran rules as Hodor) is Rickon.

 

[Gr00vus]

Rickon's foreshadowing is that he's been pretty traumatized. He may not be the ruler winterfell needs ....

He's gotta be pretty feral by now. The perfect agent to help burn all the crap currently in the North down. Then Sam Tarly can come in as his Maester and help him figure out how to rule.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Rickon's foreshadowing is that he's been pretty traumatized. He may not be the ruler winterfell needs ....

An assassin, a psychopath, a (dead) *******, a tree, and a naif-turned-schemer.

Would be very GRRMesque to have the remaining Starks recover Winterfell, but be so poisoned that they rule with none of the wisdom and honor that led the North to fight for their family in the first place. Kind of like the Shire/Middle Earth being changed forever in TLOTR.

 

[Chadstroma]

For some reason, I never considered something....

What do we expect of Davos Seaworth? Does he melt away as a character? Does he have enough of a storyline to carry on by himself since his has always been about Stannis? Do we care?

He's tied up with whatever goes on with Rickon I figure. I think they get brought back in somehow - isn't Rickon now the legitimate lord of Winterfell (since Bran is a tree)? Shaggydog needs to bring the hammer down on some people at least.

Presumably, if we believe Jojen's Green Dreams, the Starks rise again. The only way I see that happening is if Rickon survives and rules Winterfell. I think we can then assume Davos goes to Skagos, doesn't get killed and eaten, and brings Rickon back to Winterfell (or more likely White Harbor per Manderley's request).

Is there some sort of connection for Davos taking up the Starks cause?

 

[Uruk-Hai]

There's also a letter floating around that Robb had written up naming Jon his heir until he got his own kid. Robb wrote it under the assumption that Bran & Rickon were dead. Littlefinger thinks Sansa if the heir to Winterfell, though she's been accused of regicide. And if Jeyne turns up pregnant, too, the lawyers in Westeros are gonna have a field day fighting all of the claims.

Even if we assume that letter exists - legitimizing Jon makes him a Targaryen. I really can't see the series ending without Jon's parentage being revealed and if that is the case, he won't be a Stark. If Sansa is the heir another name will rule Winterfell once she is wed. I am positive Jeyne isn't pregnant, her mom prevented that from happening. The only one left (unless Bran rules as Hodor) is Rickon.

I'm not arguing as a meta point, just pointing out things look in-world at this point to different factions.

Leave Jeyne aside (I don't think she's pregnant either but we don't know for sure she's not), Littlefinger's not wrong based on his knowledge - Sansa IS the heir, no matter if her husband actually "rules" (see: Stark, "Arya" and Bolton, Roose). And if Robb's letter appears before Jon's true parentage is revealed, then HE is the heir - Robb didn't legitimize him as a Targaryen, but as a Stark.

It'll be interesting in what order Martin reveals this stuff, because - regardless how it shakes out at the end - it could cause a huge mess.

 

[Rustoleum]

Rickon's foreshadowing is that he's been pretty traumatized. He may not be the ruler winterfell needs ....

An assassin, a psychopath, a (dead) *******, a tree, and a naif-turned-schemer.Would be very GRRMesque to have the remaining Starks recover Winterfell, but be so poisoned that they rule with none of the wisdom and honor that led the North to fight for their family in the first place. Kind of like the Shire/Middle Earth being changed forever in TLOTR.

Nah, the Night Watch will be dissolved, almost every POV character will die, and Benjen will show up from his extended vacation, eat a dragon steak, and set up shop in Winterfell, while Jon Targaryen sits the Iron Throne.

 

[sn0mm1s]

For some reason, I never considered something....

What do we expect of Davos Seaworth? Does he melt away as a character? Does he have enough of a storyline to carry on by himself since his has always been about Stannis? Do we care?

He's tied up with whatever goes on with Rickon I figure. I think they get brought back in somehow - isn't Rickon now the legitimate lord of Winterfell (since Bran is a tree)? Shaggydog needs to bring the hammer down on some people at least.

Presumably, if we believe Jojen's Green Dreams, the Starks rise again. The only way I see that happening is if Rickon survives and rules Winterfell. I think we can then assume Davos goes to Skagos, doesn't get killed and eaten, and brings Rickon back to Winterfell (or more likely White Harbor per Manderley's request).

Is there some sort of connection for Davos taking up the Starks cause?

Yes, the Manderley's will support Stannis if they get the true heir of Winterfell actually ruling Winterfell. Finding Rickon is basically Manderley's price for fighting for Stannis.

 

[sn0mm1s]

There's also a letter floating around that Robb had written up naming Jon his heir until he got his own kid. Robb wrote it under the assumption that Bran & Rickon were dead. Littlefinger thinks Sansa if the heir to Winterfell, though she's been accused of regicide. And if Jeyne turns up pregnant, too, the lawyers in Westeros are gonna have a field day fighting all of the claims.

Even if we assume that letter exists - legitimizing Jon makes him a Targaryen. I really can't see the series ending without Jon's parentage being revealed and if that is the case, he won't be a Stark. If Sansa is the heir another name will rule Winterfell once she is wed. I am positive Jeyne isn't pregnant, her mom prevented that from happening. The only one left (unless Bran rules as Hodor) is Rickon.

I'm not arguing as a meta point, just pointing out things look in-world at this point to different factions.

Leave Jeyne aside (I don't think she's pregnant either but we don't know for sure she's not), Littlefinger's not wrong based on his knowledge - Sansa IS the heir, no matter if her husband actually "rules" (see: Stark, "Arya" and Bolton, Roose). And if Robb's letter appears before Jon's true parentage is revealed, then HE is the heir - Robb didn't legitimize him as a Targaryen, but as a Stark.

It'll be interesting in what order Martin reveals this stuff, because - regardless how it shakes out at the end - it could cause a huge mess.

Technically, Jon isn't the heir unless his "death" releases him from his vow to the Watch. He would have to be released of his vows and take and knowingly take up a false name. Now, it would be interesting if he is released from his vows because The Others completely destroy The Wall (and are then defeated root and branch) while Jon keeps his parentage secret and takes the name of Stark. Honestly, based on Dany's last chapter, I think it would be more likely for him to take up the name Targaryen and marry Dany as it seems she is no longer barren. Jon as a king would definitely favor a true Stark at Winterfell. Though, that sort of ending seems a little too clean and tidy based on Martin's other works.

 

[Uruk-Hai]

Jon coming back from the dead and Robb's letter - in advance of knowing he's Rhaegar's kid........Jon still wouldn't know he's not Ned's son. IF those two things happen before he's revealed as Targaryen, he could definitely set himself up as The Stark In Winterfell. The Targ reveal curveballs everything, which is why I said the order of the reveals will be interesting. And that's just Jon. Complicating things - besides all of the hidden Starks - is the fact that the North seceded. Bolton's hold on it in the Baratheon/Lannister/Tyrell name seems about to come crumbling down, not to mention the power base in Kings Landing is liable to do the same. Oh, and the Others, too. All of this could be catastrophic before Dany even gets to Westeros (assuming she does - I'd love it if she said "#### this Westeros ####, I'm hanging with the Dothraki").

 

[sn0mm1s]

Jon coming back from the dead and Robb's letter - in advance of knowing he's Rhaegar's kid........Jon still wouldn't know he's not Ned's son. IF those two things happen before he's revealed as Targaryen, he could definitely set himself up as The Stark In Winterfell. The Targ reveal curveballs everything, which is why I said the order of the reveals will be interesting. And that's just Jon. Complicating things - besides all of the hidden Starks - is the fact that the North seceded. Bolton's hold on it in the Baratheon/Lannister/Tyrell name seems about to come crumbling down, not to mention the power base in Kings Landing is liable to do the same. Oh, and the Others, too. All of this could be catastrophic before Dany even gets to Westeros (assuming she does - I'd love it if she said "#### this Westeros ####, I'm hanging with the Dothraki").

Which is sort of hinted at by Tyrion I believe. He wonders why the Targs never felt like conquering/colonizing Westeros prior to The Doom. I think we can assume that The Others were likely too much of a threat for it to be worth doing. As to why they didn't start conquering Essos I have no idea.

 

[thecatch]

Jon coming back from the dead and Robb's letter - in advance of knowing he's Rhaegar's kid........Jon still wouldn't know he's not Ned's son. IF those two things happen before he's revealed as Targaryen, he could definitely set himself up as The Stark In Winterfell. The Targ reveal curveballs everything, which is why I said the order of the reveals will be interesting. And that's just Jon. Complicating things - besides all of the hidden Starks - is the fact that the North seceded. Bolton's hold on it in the Baratheon/Lannister/Tyrell name seems about to come crumbling down, not to mention the power base in Kings Landing is liable to do the same. Oh, and the Others, too. All of this could be catastrophic before Dany even gets to Westeros (assuming she does - I'd love it if she said "#### this Westeros ####, I'm hanging with the Dothraki").

Which is sort of hinted at by Tyrion I believe. He wonders why the Targs never felt like conquering/colonizing Westeros prior to The Doom. I think we can assume that The Others were likely too much of a threat for it to be worth doing. As to why they didn't start conquering Essos I have no idea.

There were thousands of years between the last white Walker sighting and the Targ invasion. If the walkers were keeping Valyrians out of Westeros, they must have had a really impressive institutional memory.