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HBO - Song of Ice&Fire Series -Varsity Thread - no TV only whiners (2 Viewers)

Ramsay Hunt Experience said:
So what "rules" govern Dany's immunity to fire?   What about Melisandre's shadow monster?   How did the Dragon eggs survive?  How do the Faceless Men change their faces?  How did Qyburn resurrect Zombie Gregor Clagane?  As far as I know neither the show nor the books has never grounded any of its magical elements. 
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The rules of the magic system GRRM wrote.  You write your world to work a certain way, and if something happens that goes against that, it makes readers/viewers start to question things.  You expect Targareans to be immune to fire, you expect Melisandre to be able to do weird #### like summon baby smoke demons, and we expected Bran to be able to warg and view past events.  Now suddenly it looks like he might be able to change or influence past events.  That's potentially a huge increase in what we thought Bran was capable of.      

Many articles have been written about magic systems in fantasy/sci-fi needing to follow certain rules.  Here's one.

 
Scoresman said:
The rules of the magic system GRRM wrote.  You write your world to work a certain way, and if something happens that goes against that, it makes readers/viewers start to question things.  You expect Targareans to be immune to fire, you expect Melisandre to be able to do weird #### like summon baby smoke demons, and we expected Bran to be able to warg and view past events.  Now suddenly it looks like he might be able to change or influence past events.  That's potentially a huge increase in what we thought Bran was capable of.      

Many articles have been written about magic systems in fantasy/sci-fi needing to follow certain rules.  Here's one.
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So why draw the line at Bran being able to move throughout time?  This is still the world that grrm created, you're just choosing to pick on this point because you don't like it.  It doesn't mean everyone can do it, not everyone can create crotch shadow monsters, not everyone can withstand fire, not everyone can warg and move throughout time.  Maybe Bran is some sort of God himself, he just keeps reincarnating himself and this requires him to restart the process each time?

 
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Scoresman said:
The rules of the magic system GRRM wrote.  You write your world to work a certain way, and if something happens that goes against that, it makes readers/viewers start to question things.  You expect Targareans to be immune to fire, you expect Melisandre to be able to do weird #### like summon baby smoke demons, and we expected Bran to be able to warg and view past events.  Now suddenly it looks like he might be able to change or influence past events.  That's potentially a huge increase in what we thought Bran was capable of.      

Many articles have been written about magic systems in fantasy/sci-fi needing to follow certain rules.  Here's one.
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We didn't expect Dany to be immune to fire until she was.

We didn't expect dragons to be real until they were.

We didn't expect Thoros to bring people back from the dead until he did.

We didn't expect Melisandre to be immune to poison until she was.

We didn't expect Melisandre to summon shadow monsters until she did.

We didn't expect Melisandre to be centuries old until she was.

We didn't expect Bran to be able to warg until he did.

We didn't expect him to be able to warg into people until he did.

 
CBusAlex said:
We didn't expect Dany to be immune to fire until she was.

We didn't expect dragons to be real until they were.

We didn't expect Thoros to bring people back from the dead until he did.

We didn't expect Melisandre to be immune to poison until she was.

We didn't expect Melisandre to summon shadow monsters until she did.

We didn't expect Melisandre to be centuries old until she was.

We didn't expect Bran to be able to warg until he did.

We didn't expect him to be able to warg into people until he did.
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Read the link I posted.  Potentially being able to change events in the past is a big, big deal verging on becoming a deus ex machina.  None of the things you list are really on par with that.  I'm sure the writers wont let that happen, but again, I can see why people might be taken aback by this supposed new power of Bran.  

 
Close but not quite, guy from 3 years ago:

“I have a theory on Aegon. There’s a boy claimed to be him, but there have been visions of the mummer’s dragon and many believe Young Griff to be a fake. Which you think, but if Aegon did survive, then who is he? We know this: his head was dashed against the wall, which may have caused severe brain injury. Imagine: Rhaella, Aegon and Elia are hiding a room and Gregor Clegane is ramming at the door. ‘Hold the door!’ Elia yells, 'Hold the door!’ But then Gregor comes in and kills the women and throws Aegon against the door. Which causes him to be able to say only one thing for the rest of his life, which is the last thing he heard from his mother’s lips: hold the door. Except he misheard. What he thought she was saying is 'Hodor!’ And for the rest of his life he was able to say only that due to the brain injury. Which makes us arrive at a most spectacular conclusion: Hodor is Aegon Targaryen. He was hidden away and given a new identity for safety. Old Nan took him in her care. […]”
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http://winryrockbells.tumblr.com/post/45875388824/i-have-a-theory-on-aegon-theres-a-boy-claimed

 
Ramsay Hunt Experience said:
Wait, bringing people back from the dead isn't deus ex machina?
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One of the only problems I've had this season was how it seemed so easy for her to bring Jon back.  Give him a sponge bath, say a couple words in horsespeak tongue and voila.  I figured it would require a sacrifice of someone else or something equally costly.   Granted, she really didn't know what she was doing at the time so who knows if she can even repeat the process, but now if somebody else important to the story dies in front of her, I'm going to be asking why doesn't she just resurrect them.  

 
Scoresman said:
One of the only problems I've had this season was how it seemed so easy for her to bring Jon back.  Give him a sponge bath, say a couple words in horsespeak tongue and voila.  I figured it would require a sacrifice of someone else or something equally costly.   Granted, she really didn't know what she was doing at the time so who knows if she can even repeat the process, but now if somebody else important to the story dies in front of her, I'm going to be asking why doesn't she just resurrect them.  
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Did you miss the episode where Thoros of Myr brought back Beric Dondarrion and then the subsequent episode where Melissandre meets up with Beric and Thoros and talk about how / what was done?  There was more 'ceremony' with her bringing back Jon Snow that Thoros bringing back Beric.

 
Stoneys said:
Did you miss the episode where Thoros of Myr brought back Beric Dondarrion and then the subsequent episode where Melissandre meets up with Beric and Thoros and talk about how / what was done?  There was more 'ceremony' with her bringing back Jon Snow that Thoros bringing back Beric.
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To be fair, Beric didn't seem like the type to want a sponge bath from Thoros.

 
Well, if you guys don't like Hodor's story, you really aren't going to like it when Bran goes back and visits Aerys to warn him to burn the bodies so they don't turn into white walkers.  And all Aerys can get is "burn them all" in his head - which starts the whole game of thrones in motion.

 
Sinn Fein said:
Well, if you guys don't like Hodor's story, you really aren't going to like it when Bran goes back and visits Aerys to warn him to burn the bodies so they don't turn into white walkers.  And all Aerys can get is "burn them all" in his head - which starts the whole game of thrones in motion.
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See, I tend to think if this wasn't just the result of a #### ton of inbreeding, it was maybe the three-eyed raven taking his shot at changing some things.

 
At this point, I am hoping this whole story is just a dream, starting when Bran was pushed out the window.

In the final season he is going to wake up, and everyone will be around his bed.

 
In a world where men can cut off your face and wear it around like a party hat, how do we know anybody we see is actually that person?  Would you be surprised if something happens with Arya that causes Jaqen to become cross with her?  If at some point we see her leave the house of black and white, and head back to Westeros?  Maybe see her go through tons of adventures without emotion or attachment, at some point kill someone she's supposed to care about, and as she walks away, have her face ripped off to reveal it's actually Jaqen?  Or the waif, if Faceless Men can't replicate boobage.

 
I thought hold the door was done perfectly.

I just hope they dont make Bran realize he can affect the past and be the cause of things like the Mad King, without addressing why he wouldnt try to go back and do something more critical, like stop the Walkers from being created.

Poor writing has him going back to whisper to the King or Varys because it is a cool twist to have him be the cause of more events that we know happened, but then doesnt address why he wouldnt do something more critical.  

Great writing can pull this off, it will be cool if they do.

For me it is about whether the actions of the characters are somewhat realistic based on what they know.  I could care less about the rules of magic.

 
To me, at least from a story telling perspective, they are leaning in a direction in which Bran, maybe more powerful than the Three Eyed Raven has the ability to "echo" thru the past (maybe without physically being able to change it himself). Otherwise, the whole situation could have been stamped out by a conversation between the Three Eyed Raven and Bran in which it's definitively said that nothing can be changed.  Instead, we're given a more open ended, mysterious situation where:

BRAN: "FATHER!"

(Ned stops running up the steps to save his screaming sister (later explained away as wind or a bird by The Three Eyed Raven),slowly looks back as if he heard something and then takes the time to survey the area before leaving).

(Close up of the Three Eyed Raven watching this unfold) I'm not going to try to interpret the Raven's look....as I'm sure we all could interpret it to bolster our point. 

If that scene doesn't at least give you pause to think that that Three Eyed Raven is A)lying to Bran (for reasons not explained) or B) doesn't realize that the powers can be used this way and is surprised when Bran does it......then I don't know what would.  It's purposefully ambigious and meant at the very least to give pause to believe the Raven's insistence that "the ink is dry".

I don't think I'd have a problem with the idea that the Raven didn't/wasn't able to harness that aspect of the power and that Bran, although having some sort of ability that the Raven didn't, isn't able to use it effectively enough to physically change the past himself.  That would jibe with the theory of him (in a time is a flat circle kind of manner) trying to contact those who he thinks can prevent the White Walkers from being dominant).

I also don't have a problem with people not liking this, as while I don't think it's quite a deus ex machina (as I dont' think it will "right the wrongs" of the world).....I think it's "11th Hour Mystical" enough to give the initial impression of being so. Plus, I think it adds another dimension to the story that people might not have the patience for. 

* Hasn't the books talked about the Weir Woods and haven't people, several times near a tree, heard things?  I swore there was a time when it happened with Ned/Cat? 

 
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Thunderlips said:
* Hasn't the books talked about the Weir Woods and haven't people, several times near a tree, heard things?  I swore there was a time when it happened with Ned/Cat? 
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Jon?

The call came from behind him, softer than a whisper, but strong too. Can a shout be silent? He turned his head, searching for his brother, for a glimpse of a lean grey shape moving beneath the trees, but there was nothing, only . . .

A weirwood. 

Lord Eddard Stark sat upon a rock beside the deep black pool in the godswood, the pale roots of the heart tree twisting around him like an old man's gnarled arms. The greatsword Ice lay across Lord Eddard's lap, and he was cleaning the blade with an oilcloth.

"Winterfell," Bran whispered.

His father looked up. "Who's there?" he asked

"But," said Bran, "he heard me."

"He heard a whisper on the wind, a rustling amongst the leaves. You cannot speak to him, try as you might. I know. I have my own ghosts, Bran. A brother that I loved, a brother that I hated, a woman I desired. Through the trees, I see them still, but no word of mine has ever reached them. The past remains the past. We can learn from it, but we cannot change it."

Theon found himself wondering if he should say a prayer. Will the old gods hear me if I do? They were not his gods, had never been his gods. He was ironborn, a son of Pyke, his god was the Drowned God of the islands … but Winterfell was long leagues from the sea. It had been a lifetime since any god had heard him. He did not know who he was, or what he was, why he was still alive, why he had ever been born.

"Theon," a voice seemed to whisper.

His head snapped up. "Who said that?" All he could see were the trees and the fog that covered them. The voice had been as faint as rustling leaves, as cold as hate. A god's voice, or a ghost's. How many died the day that he took Winterfell? How many more the day he lost it? The day that Theon Greyjoy died, to be reborn as Reek. Reek, Reek, it rhymes with shriek.
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I always assumed that people could hear from the past and the future when they were in the weir wood.  So the hodor business was not a surprise to me.  

 
Nick Vermeil said:
I always assumed that people could hear from the past and the future when they were in the weir wood.  So the hodor business was not a surprise to me.  
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Yes, supposedly, the "trees" speak to the northmen. But less frequently now that so few weirwoods are left. I just figured it was the 3eyed raven.

 
The 3eyed raven doesn't have a connection to any of he major houses that we know of, right?
If the old raven is just an impartial omniscient being, then he would have no reason to interfere with the events of the world, past or present. He may be just as powerful as Bran but chooses not to use his abilities. But since Bran is watching events that happen to his family, he's more apt to try to affect things.
I guess what I'm saying is that the old dude and Bran may have the same abilities but only Bran is emotionally invested in the flashbacks.

 
EYLive said:
The 3eyed raven doesn't have a connection to any of he major houses that we know of, right?
If the old raven is just an impartial omniscient being, then he would have no reason to interfere with the events of the world, past or present. He may be just as powerful as Bran but chooses not to use his abilities. But since Bran is watching events that happen to his family, he's more apt to try to affect things.
I guess what I'm saying is that the old dude and Bran may have the same abilities but only Bran is emotionally invested in the flashbacks.
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He probably was invested along time about. But now hes not

 
EYLive said:
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Brynden_Rivers

Hmmm, that guy had a lot of affiliations, and relatively young. I thought the greenseer was a thousand years old or something.
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He did say that he was that old in the show. Van Sydow also had both eyes and did not have a "blood raven" birthmark. :shrug:  I think this is one of those things where the show didn't really feel the need to follow the books exactly and that the origin of the 3 eyed raven wasn't really crucial to the plot.

 
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SERIOUS SPOILERS AHEAD

Stumbled across an article that apparently quotes liberally from a now-deleted Reddit thread which has a number of spoilers for the rest of season 6.  Can't vouch for the veracity, but apparently it was posted prior to episode 4, and what was posted, did in fact happen.

So, if you do not want to see what happens this year - do not read the spoiler!!

“Uncle Benjen will come to rescue Bran and Meera. He will accompany them to The Wall before departing. Bran will have one more 'flashback' in the finale and we will see what's in the Tower.”

Below the now deleted Reddit thread, truede answered specific questions about the Tower of Joy (those answers still exist). The poster is asked what happens in the Tower of Joy, the relevance of Lyanna Stark and R+L=J. Truede says “we see Lyanna Stark… Lyanna whispers something to Ned before she dies. We then see a baby, and the very next scene we see Jon.”

Game of Thrones Season 6 Spoilers: Who Wins The Battle of Winterfell, What Happens in the North?

Last week, for the first time since Season 1, Sansa and Jon Snow were reunited. This event, correctly predicted by truede, was not just finally a happy moment for the Starks, it also served as a jumping off point for the eventual battle of Winterfell. The battle itself has been a mainstay for trailer for this season and we’ve got the alleged scoop of what goes down in the “******* Bowl.”

Truede also confirms Rickon will not survive his encounter with Ramsay. He’s not burned alive, as several have predicted, but his fate is sealed with “arrows actually.”

“Sansa will also have a quick meetup with Baelish. Jon and Sansa will eventually team up to try and get their brother back. They have the Wildlings on their side and then travel around and try to recruit more people.

“Sansa ends up meeting Baelish at the town outside Winterfell. Brienne goes with her. Baelish apologizes for allowing her to marry Ramsay. Sansa accuses Baelish of knowing about Ramsay and basically says she doesn't want anything to do with him any more.

“Jon does become King of the North. This is after the teen girl who is head of some house (with like 60 soldiers) speaks up about how she trusts the Starks and was one of the only ones to follow them into battle. Then the other houses speak up and apologize about not following them and they don't care that he is a *******.

“The recruiting scene is pretty funny as Jon, Sansa and Davos make these great speeches on why she should join them only to find out she has less than 100 men. Don't think Sansa legitimizes Jon but she is agreement that he should be King.

“Jon chooses to imprison Ramsay rather than kill him.

“Jamie is forced to go to Riverrun and retake the castle from The Blackfish for the Freys. Brienne also goes to Riverrun to try and get the Tullys to join up and retake Winterfell. Brienne fails but escapes. Edmure is forced by Jaime to enter Riverrun and give it up since he is the rightful owner. The Blackfish apparently dies in battle but we never actually see it happen.

“Davos will find the little toy or whatever he gave to Shireen. He will confront Melisandre and she will admit to having her burned.”

“Only one Stark dies this season (not including flashbacks).

Game of Thrones Season 6 Spoilers: Character Deaths, Arya and (Most) Everything Else

While many details were shared in the spoiler-heavy reddit post, we were mostly spared from MAJOR character deaths in the thread. The poster didn’t “wanna give too much right away,” but there are deaths coming and several other unexpected twist and turns. One significant death will be the King himself, Tommen, who apparently “jumps out the window.” No other details or lead up to that scene were shared.

Unfortunately, those looking forward to the Cleganebowl theory, it doesn't happen. "Trial by combat is denied so The Mountain doesn't do much this season. He does get to have his way with Septa Unella though."

“ Who else is still alive? The Hound. He is saved by some followers of some sort. They all get killed by some former Brotherhood Without Banners members while he is away. The Hound meets up with the other Brotherhood Without Banners and gets revenge.

“ Euron gets chosen to be the new king because of his plan to marry Dany and enter into an alliance with her to take King's Landing. Yara and Theon steal their ships instead and plan to enter into an alliance with Dany instead.

“Samwell's father doesn't approve of Gilly. Samwell decides he doesn't care and leaves. But not before stealing his father's Valyrian sword.

“Arya will be asked to kill some actress. She refuses and The Waif is given permission to kill Arya.

“Dragons don't really interact with Tyrion. And yes lots of major characters die. Mostly in the finale. Don't wanna spoil all of them but Tommen does die... But really all that matters is that Wun Wun lives.”

Wow, OK, that’s a lot of spoilers. Honestly, we wished this didn’t exist but it does. At least the poster left a lot unsaid. There’s so much going on, but in the end it doesn’t sound like we get any major White Walker or alliance invasions of Westeros this season.With only 13 episodes allegedly left after Season 6, there’s a lot to cover in the final two seasons.

Oh, and this is a last bit a good news about these Game of Thrones Season 6 spoilers “Dorne will not be shown again until the finale.” Yay, no more Dorne… for now.
 
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Uruk-Hai said:
Bran didn't actually "do" anything. He didn't wake up and say "Hey! I think I'll go back and affect a past event". I don't think he can do that. He had no control over what was happening. This seemed to me like an extraordinary confluence of events (him warging into Hodor AND being in both the past and present AND in the presence of strong magic - not just his own, but also in all those around him - AND being in an extremely stressful situation) that was pre-destined. I don't think he can make a decision to go back and stop the White Walkers from being created, or be his own grandfather, or teach "Johnny B Goode" to Chuck Berry.
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This. People are reading a little too much into it right now. Bran didn't INTENTIONALLY do anything.

 
Another thing to keep in mind with Bran is that his apparent "affecting the past" occured in a particularly strong magical place that is now destroyed. It's not for certain that he'll be able to view the past like that apart from the tree (or at least, apart from a weirwood tree), let alone affect the past. I believe we'll find the HODOR thing to be a unique occurance not repeated. IN that context, with all that was happening around it, I fail to see why this would or should create a major believability issue.

 
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So if king tommen does die. Who is next in line for the throne?? All of roberts baratheons "legit" children and brothers are dead. 

 
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In the show, they are. In the books, Stannis is still kicking and would be next in line. If Gendry had been legitmized, he'd have the best claim based on inheritance (with Stannis dead). Whether anyone would back him is another matter. I'd guess it would be like with Robert won the throne by might (then, acclamation): whoever has the strongest army wins. 

 
bicycle_seat_sniffer said:
So if king tommen does die. Who is next in line for the throne?? All of roberts baratheons "legit" children and brothers are dead. 
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Book wise on the Baratheon side, I guess Edric Storm could lay some sort of claim. He's Robert and some noble ladies *******.  Without anyone else, I'd imagine that both Baratheon and Florent houses would push for him.....

As far as the Targaryeons go......Dany doesn't have the claim if  Aegon is legit. If he's a fraud......I think she can legimately claim it.

Show wise, I think the idea that they're ignoring Storm and Aegon shows that a death of Tommen would throw Westeros into chaos, with Dany being the only legitimate claimant....unless they somehow show that Jon is a ******* of Rheagar.....and then even then....that'd be a hard sell.

I think the story ends with Dany as the Queen or a reverting back to a number of individual kingdoms (Jon as King in the North, independent Dorne, etc, etc,) 

ETA: As far as the books, go...while Stannis is still alive and has the legit claim, I think he's going to Get Got. 

 
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Dany doesn't have a legit claim (through inheritance), though - not anymore. Her family's claim got dusted on the Trident. Now, she may well take it back by force AND have the people back her but if she's bringing several foreign armies with her I'm not so sure how well the folks of Westeros will receive that.

 
Uruk-Hai said:
In the show, they are. In the books, Stannis is still kicking and would be next in line. If Gendry had been legitmized, he'd have the best claim based on inheritance (with Stannis dead). Whether anyone would back him is another matter. I'd guess it would be like with Robert won the throne by might (then, acclamation): whoever has the strongest army wins. 
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We'd need a Westerosi estates lawyer to chime in here, but I imagine as a technical matter they'd trace Baratheon's lineage back to the point where they could find someone who's living with a common ancestor as the legal heir. But considering there's been a string of bastards who are the product of incest sitting on the throne recently, that's probably overthinking it. 

 
If Tommen dies somehow, I have a feeling the ####s gonna hit the fan a la white walkers, dragons, etc before they have a chance to worry about successors. 

 
Uruk-Hai said:
Dany doesn't have a legit claim (through inheritance), though - not anymore. Her family's claim got dusted on the Trident. Now, she may well take it back by force AND have the people back her but if she's bringing several foreign armies with her I'm not so sure how well the folks of Westeros will receive that.
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I think her claim is way more prevalent in the books than the show as IIRC, there always seemed to be an underlying resentment by a decent percentage of Houses that Robert was an Usurper and that they would back a Targaryan return. 

I don't think the show (aside from maybe a couple of comments from Jorah or Selmy) really touched on that. 

 
Someone in the tv only thread dropped some info from a Got site about line of succession. Basically bastards never inherit unless legitimized by the current king. Even then they have to be "acknowledged" bastards like Edric Storm or Mya Stone to be legitimized. Any unacknowledged bastards like Gendry would never have any status. If a true born son is born, even though younger, they have first claim over a legitimized *******, hence why Ramsey murders his newborn brother.

 
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