HC Bill Belichick (1 Viewer)

[Hot Sauce Guy]

The bar is pretty high for BB and NE in 2022.  Getting to the AFC championship given the current strength of BUF, CIN and KC is no small task.  And yes I'm discounting other AFC teams not mentioned unless quarterback and/or offensive scheme changes are made.

eh...4 games against the Jets & Dolphins will always give the Pats a fighting chance. Even with the extra game, that's roughly 20% of their schedule?  

Looking at their 2021 schedule is interesting. 

Week 1: Lost to MIA by 1 point (17-16) 

Week 2: Stomped the Jets (25-6)

Week 3: Lost to the Saints at home (28-13)

Week 4: Lost to the Bucs (19-17)

Week 5: Eked one out at  the Texans (25-22)

Week 6: Lost to the Cowboys at home (35-29)

Week7: Again stomped the Jets (54-13)

Week 8: Beat the Chargers (27-24)

Week 9: Beat the Panthers 24-6

Week 10: Crushed the Browns (45-7)

Week 11: Beat the Falcons 25-0)

Week 12: Beat the Titans (36-13)

Week 13: Edged past the Bills (14-10)

Week 15: Lost to the Colts (27-17) off a BYE. IIRC, BB is historically excellent coming off of BYE weeks. 

Week 16: Lost to the Bills (33-24)

Week 17: Crushed the Jags (50-10)

Week 18: Lost to the Dolphins (again) (33-24)

So their wins were Jets, Texans, Jets, Chargers, Panthers, Browns, Falcons, Titans, Bills, and Jags? 

That's....not very impressive. 

The losses were Dolphins, Saints, Bucs, Cowboys, Colts, Bills, & Dolphins (again). 

Again - that's not an impressive list of teams that beat them save for the early season Bucs, & early season Cowboys before both succumbed to a ton of injuries. Split with the Bills, and lost to the Colts when they were still pretty cohesive. 

I guess my point is, (and I'll have to see next year's schedule) for 2021, I'm seeing a team that was very, very fortunate to be in the playoffs, and one that could easily miss them next year. Miami swept them this year, and the Bills are now the class of their division. BB always has a puncher's chance with their defense & run game, but you can only hide your QB for so long.

Again, depending on the schedule. It was surely a gift from the scheduling gods to draw the NFC South last year, with CAR & ATL both pretty much trash right now. I was surprised they lost to the Saints, but defense is legit in NOLA. I'm sure the Brady / Pats matchup had nothing to do with that scheduling & was all very coincidental. I honestly don't know how that's decided, but it felt shady when the schedule came out & basically gifted them 2 wins against ATL & CAR.

I think the Pats are going to have a much harder time if their schedule gets more difficult, and it's hard to imagine it getting easier than 2021, considering. 

 

[Boston]

The bar is pretty high for BB and NE in 2022.  Getting to the AFC championship given the current strength of BUF, CIN and KC is no small task.  And yes I'm discounting other AFC teams not mentioned unless quarterback and/or offensive scheme changes are made.

My hope is they improve as much from 2021 to 2022 as they did from 2020 to 2021...they still have a ton of holes to fill so my hope/expectation is to be a playoff team that can compete but probably lose to the top teams but be in a position to be a legit contender in 2023...on top  of that I want to see Mac take the next the step in his development (the most important thing and something I fully expect because I 100% believe in the kid), have players like Barmore/Duggar/Stevenson/Onewenu solidify that they are foundation players, have another quality draft and improve the team speed on D while adding another weapon or two on offense (a quality slot WR is a must)...accomplish something like that and BB will have accomplished a very quick and impressive rebuild after losing the Goat.

The JC Jackson situation is a big one to watch...many locals want to let him walk but I want to resign him...he is not Jalen Ramsey but he is a legit #1 CB who makes a ton of plays and if you lose him it leaves a gaping hole in the D and they already have enough holes to fill...if you look at BB's best defenses they almost always have a big time CB be it Law, Samuel, Revis or Gilmore...also, with TV money about ready to blow up the cap what looks like an overpay now could be a bargain in a few years if he continues playing at the level he has played at.

Will also be interested to see if they take a run at Ridley...if he is OK to play he would have a chance to totally change this offense.

 

[Anarchy99]

eh...4 games against the Jets & Dolphins will always give the Pats a fighting chance. Even with the extra game, that's roughly 20% of their schedule?  

Looking at their 2021 schedule is interesting. 

Week 1: Lost to MIA by 1 point (17-16) 

Week 2: Stomped the Jets (25-6)

Week 3: Lost to the Saints at home (28-13)

Week 4: Lost to the Bucs (19-17)

Week 5: Eked one out at  the Texans (25-22)

Week 6: Lost to the Cowboys at home (35-29)

Week7: Again stomped the Jets (54-13)

Week 8: Beat the Chargers (27-24)

Week 9: Beat the Panthers 24-6

Week 10: Crushed the Browns (45-7)

Week 11: Beat the Falcons 25-0)

Week 12: Beat the Titans (36-13)

Week 13: Edged past the Bills (14-10)

Week 15: Lost to the Colts (27-17) off a BYE. IIRC, BB is historically excellent coming off of BYE weeks. 

Week 16: Lost to the Bills (33-24)

Week 17: Crushed the Jags (50-10)

Week 18: Lost to the Dolphins (again) (33-24)

So their wins were Jets, Texans, Jets, Chargers, Panthers, Browns, Falcons, Titans, Bills, and Jags? 

That's....not very impressive. 

The losses were Dolphins, Saints, Bucs, Cowboys, Colts, Bills, & Dolphins (again). 

Again - that's not an impressive list of teams that beat them save for the early season Bucs, & early season Cowboys before both succumbed to a ton of injuries. Split with the Bills, and lost to the Colts when they were still pretty cohesive. 

I guess my point is, (and I'll have to see next year's schedule) for 2021, I'm seeing a team that was very, very fortunate to be in the playoffs, and one that could easily miss them next year. Miami swept them this year, and the Bills are now the class of their division. BB always has a puncher's chance with their defense & run game, but you can only hide your QB for so long.

Again, depending on the schedule. It was surely a gift from the scheduling gods to draw the NFC South last year, with CAR & ATL both pretty much trash right now. I was surprised they lost to the Saints, but defense is legit in NOLA. I'm sure the Brady / Pats matchup had nothing to do with that scheduling & was all very coincidental. I honestly don't know how that's decided, but it felt shady when the schedule came out & basically gifted them 2 wins against ATL & CAR.

I think the Pats are going to have a much harder time if their schedule gets more difficult, and it's hard to imagine it getting easier than 2021, considering. 

They knew they were playing the Bucs this year when they set the schedule in 2002. Yes, that is the right date. They made a rotating schedule and template as to which divisions play each other. This year was the year they played the NFC South. They won’t play all those teams again in from that division for 4 years. Since they added a 17th game, at least initially, the extra game comes from the same division in the other conference. So East plays East. I am not sure if they are going to start rotating the extra game or not. 

As for who they played / beat, there are mediocre teams every year, and plenty of teams end up making the playoffs by beating scrubs. Welcome to the NFL. 

It literally is impossible to have any idea what the Pats will look like until we see who they bring back, who they draft, who they sign, etc. Jones will likely keep learning. They have a lot of free agents and aging players. I’ve seen some talk of the Pats trying to move Jonnu by essentially throwing in a pick for someone to take him off their hands. Something like Smith and a 3rd for a 4th and a 6th or something like that. They would much rather have more cap space than Smith back. 

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

They knew they were playing the Bucs this year when they set the schedule in 2002. Yes, that is the right date. They made a rotating schedule and template as to which divisions play each other. This year was the year they played the NFC South. They won’t play all those teams again in from that division for 4 years. Since they added a 17th game, at least initially, the extra game comes from the same division in the other conference. So East plays East. I am not sure if they are going to start rotating the extra game or not. 

As for who they played / beat, there are mediocre teams every year, and plenty of teams end up making the playoffs by beating scrubs. Welcome to the NFL. 

It literally is impossible to have any idea what the Pats will look like until we see who they bring back, who they draft, who they sign, etc. Jones will likely keep learning. They have a lot of free agents and aging players. I’ve seen some talk of the Pats trying to move Jonnu by essentially throwing in a pick for someone to take him off their hands. Something like Smith and a 3rd for a 4th and a 6th or something like that. They would much rather have more cap space than Smith back. 

Oh yeah - I actually knew that at one point. 

As for the rest of my post, my point was more about how soft that schedule is, and how tough the AFC is. It just happened to be a very very easy schedule & they beat up on some very bad teams. 

If the schedule is even a little more difficult, they’ll have to be a lot better to win 8-10 games.

I agree it remains to be seen what moves they make, but I was responding to a post saying BB had a very high bar to meet to replicate this year. IMO the bar is that much higher than it appears when looking at record alone. 

 

[Boston]

They knew they were playing the Bucs this year when they set the schedule in 2002. Yes, that is the right date. They made a rotating schedule and template as to which divisions play each other. This year was the year they played the NFC South. They won’t play all those teams again in from that division for 4 years. Since they added a 17th game, at least initially, the extra game comes from the same division in the other conference. So East plays East. I am not sure if they are going to start rotating the extra game or not. 

As for who they played / beat, there are mediocre teams every year, and plenty of teams end up making the playoffs by beating scrubs. Welcome to the NFL. 

It literally is impossible to have any idea what the Pats will look like until we see who they bring back, who they draft, who they sign, etc. Jones will likely keep learning. They have a lot of free agents and aging players. I’ve seen some talk of the Pats trying to move Jonnu by essentially throwing in a pick for someone to take him off their hands. Something like Smith and a 3rd for a 4th and a 6th or something like that. They would much rather have more cap space than Smith back. 

If they get can out of Jonnu's contract that would be huge...he was just awful this year...I will readily admit I was good with the signing because they needed to add skill position talent and he looked like he had a ton of upside but boy, was that a whiff...he looks the part, but he just can't figure it out and actually hurts you at times...he was a complete bust and when you look at the contract they gave him it makes you want to vomit...if they can get some of that cap space back that is a big addition by subtraction.

On the other-hand I really like Henry and feel they should utilize him more in the passing game...good things happen when they involve him.

 

[DropKick]

I guess my point is, (and I'll have to see next year's schedule) for 2021, I'm seeing a team that was very, very fortunate to be in the playoffs, and one that could easily miss them next year. Miami swept them this year, and the Bills are now the class of their division. BB always has a puncher's chance with their defense & run game, but you can only hide your QB for so long.

Your analysis isn't very impressive and you seem to have an axe to grind here.   Jones was a rookie QB... and probably showed better than the rest of the rookies.  What is the "hide your QB" talk? They lost very close games to the Bucs and Cowboys and beat the Titans and Bills... all teams with double digit wins.  How many teams start a rookie QB and coast through the season?  They actually won seven games in a row, which included victories over the Titans and Bills and demolitions of the Panthers, Browns and Falcons.  They went into the Colt's game as the #1 seed and, to be frank, the Colt's approached it like it was their Super Bowl.  At the time, the Colts were pretty solid on both sides of the ball.

You go to great effort to criticize them.  Do you do the same to any other team in the league?

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Your analysis isn't very impressive and you seem to have an axe to grind here.   Jones was a rookie QB... and probably showed better than the rest of the rookies.  What is the "hide your QB" talk? They lost very close games to the Bucs and Cowboys and beat the Titans and Bills... all teams with double digit wins.  How many teams start a rookie QB and coast through the season?  They actually won seven games in a row, which included victories over the Titans and Bills and demolitions of the Panthers, Browns and Falcons.  They went into the Colt's game as the #1 seed and, to be frank, the Colt's approached it like it was their Super Bowl.  At the time, the Colts were pretty solid on both sides of the ball.

You go to great effort to criticize them.  Do you do the same to any other team in the league?

I have no axe to grind whatsoever. What a ridiculous assertion. I posted their schedule and pointed out wins and losses.

”hide your QB” like the game he had 3 pass attempts?  Did you watch any Patriots games? 

I came into a topic about BB, saw the statement that he would have a hard time living up to 2021, and posted a response. Why would I do this with other teams when the topic is about BB.

How you read all that into it is very odd.  Just a super extra weird rant not nearly resembling anything remotely related to reality. . 

 

[DropKick]

I have no axe to grind whatsoever. What a ridiculous assertion. I posted their schedule and pointed out wins and losses.

”hide your QB” like the game he had 3 pass attempts?  Did you watch any Patriots games? 

I came into a topic about BB, saw the statement that he would have a hard time living up to 2021, and posted a response. Why would I do this with other teams when the topic is about BB.

How you read all that into it is very odd.  Just a super extra weird rant not nearly resembling anything remotely related to reality. . 

What were the weather conditions when he threw 3 passes and did they win the game?

I've seen you rag on Jones in multiple posts... it is definitely reality.   

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

What were the weather conditions when he threw 3 passes and did they win the game?

I've seen you rag on Jones in multiple posts... it is definitely reality.   

No, you haven’t.  I’ve said he was the most NfL-ready of the rookies & has limitations - which aligned with his pre-draft report. 

Quote me “ragging on him” or it didn’t happen.  
 

 

[DropKick]

No, you haven’t.  I’ve said he was thee most NfL-ready & has limitations - which aligned with his pre-draft report. 

Quote me “ragging on him” or it didn’t happen.  
 

I'll answer for you... the conditions were terrible with high wind and he won the game.

Do you really want me to embarrass you by digging up the post?

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

I'll answer for you... the conditions were terrible with high wind and he won the game.

Do you really want me to embarrass you by digging up the post?

Find someone else to obsess over. This is just weird & creepy. 

And yes, please dig up the posts of me  allegedly “ragging on him”. I’ll wait. You’re making it up. You’ll find me saying exactly what i said above. I’ve said it more than once on here & it was fair.  
 

Also “he” (Jones) most certainly did not “win the game” with his 2/3 effort. Laughable at best. 

While criticizing my analysis, I’ll note you provided exactly *none* on topic of your own.

Have a nice day. Enjoy looking for content that doesn’t exist.

 

[DropKick]

Find someone else to obsess over. This is just weird & creepy. 

And yes, please dig up the posts of me  allegedly “ragging on him”. I’ll wait. You’re making it up. You’ll find me saying exactly what i said above. I’ve said it more than once on here & it was fair.  
 

Also “he” (Jones) most certainly did not “win the game” with his 2/3 effort. Laughable at best. 

While criticizing my analysis, I’ll note you provided exactly *none* on topic of your own.

Have a nice day. Enjoy looking for content that doesn’t exist.

That took 10 seconds...  Does this sound familiar?

"I felt like the Pats won with bubble gum & spit this year. They were a fraud. I’m unconvinced that they have a QB of the future." 

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

I guess my point is, (and I'll have to see next year's schedule) for 2021, I'm seeing a team that was very, very fortunate to be in the playoffs, and one that could easily miss them next year. Miami swept them this year, and the Bills are now the class of their division. BB always has a puncher's chance with their defense & run game, but you can only hide your QB for so long.

2021 was accomplished with a rookie quarterback.  PFA awarded Belichick exec of the year for the remarkable turnaround this year including free agent wins and draft wins.  I expect the fish to regress this year after their incomprehensible decision to fire Flores.  It remains to be seen how much Jones progresses in year 2, but based on his rookie production I'm optimistic, and stand behind the point that the CIN, BUF and KC are the yardstick.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

2021 was accomplished with a rookie quarterback.  PFA awarded Belichick exec of the year for the remarkable turnaround this year including free agent wins and draft wins.  I expect the fish to regress this year after their incomprehensible decision to fire Flores.  It remains to be seen how much Jones progresses in year 2, but based on his rookie production I'm optimistic, and stand behind the point that the CIN, BUF and KC are the yardstick.

Oh, I think he’ll improve as well.

And for doing it with a rookie I’m also impressed with BB.

But they also had a very soft schedule. Next year won’t be easier than this even if Jones takes a step forward.  I am willing to be convinced & keeping an open mind on Jones - I’m not yet convinced that he is as good as the pats record makes him look. 
 

ETA: not Oats. My phone always turns Pats into Oats, and it’s odd. 

 

[Boston]

2021 was accomplished with a rookie quarterback.  PFA awarded Belichick exec of the year for the remarkable turnaround this year including free agent wins and draft wins.  I expect the fish to regress this year after their incomprehensible decision to fire Flores.  It remains to be seen how much Jones progresses in year 2, but based on his rookie production I'm optimistic, and stand behind the point that the CIN, BUF and KC are the yardstick.

The AFC has a chance to be absolutely loaded...besides the teams you listed if Rodgers goes to Denver they join that group...you also have an Indy team that many thought were a dark horse this year, Baltimore with Lamar and Dobbins back, Herbert in LA, a decent Raiders team, Miami who has some talent and if the Steelers somehow figure out the QB position they could be dangerous....and the Titans who were the #1 seed this year and are a very good team...looking at this I got a feeling we are gonna see a lot more games like we did this weekend.

 

[The Duff Man]

It is over for Bill, he just doesn’t realize it yet.  I don’t see any way he is making hay in the AFC with Jones against the other young guns in the conference. One and done is the best scenario. 

 

[voiceofunreason]

It is over for Bill, he just doesn’t realize it yet.  I don’t see any way he is making hay in the AFC with Jones against the other young guns in the conference. One and done is the best scenario. 

The AFC is brutal right now and will be for a looooong time. Burrow, Herbert, Allen and Mahomes. I can't imagine 4 better, young qbs in the same conference in league history. All should be mulitple super bowl winners normally but it's going to be tough facing each other every year.

 

[IHEARTFF]

The AFC is brutal right now and will be for a looooong time. Burrow, Herbert, Allen and Mahomes. I can't imagine 4 better, young qbs in the same conference in league history. All should be mulitple super bowl winners normally but it's going to be tough facing each other every year.

Jim Kelly, Dan Marino, John Elway and Todd Bla

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

It is over for Bill, he just doesn’t realize it yet.  I don’t see any way he is making hay in the AFC with Jones against the other young guns in the conference. One and done is the best scenario. 

I am inclined to agree. And it's no knock on BB at all. Brilliant football coach. Absolutely without equal when it comes to strategy & gamesmanship. Allegedly cheating, too, but hey, it's pro sports. He's not the first to bend the rules to their breaking point. 

And while he is incredible at doing more with less, and playing to his team's strengths, as you & @voiceofunreason suggest, the AFC is loaded. And at some point, regardless of what the regular season looks like, they're going up against KC, CIN, BUF, BAL, and to a lesser extent LAC, likely Denver if they can get a QB (they're not too far away, otherwise). Miami is a coin flip IMO - they could get really good in a hurry, or they could go back into the terlet. That's still a brutal conference any way you slice it, with arguably the best most complete team in their own division for a home & home. 

And despite one person oddly claiming I've "ragged on" Mac Jones, I do think he's shown promise, but I am not yet convinced he's their QB of the future. I've seen him struggle to make "all the throws", as they say. He has moxie - I'll give him that. He's made some impressive plays. He's lived up to the pre-draft scouting reports for sure as the "most NFL-ready" of the QBs drafted in that class. He was also thought to have the lowest ceiling. He isn't the strongest armed QB (and doesn't have to be) but he's more mobile than we were led to believe. And yes, he could improve. Can he improve enough to become the next great Patriots QB and steward them to a championship?  Could be a while. 

Again, no knock on Jones, but if I were given a vegas prop bet over "the next Patriots QB to win a SB", and my choices were "Mac Jones" or "the field" (FA or next drafted QB), I'm probably betting the field. 

And I would be pleasantly surprised if I was wrong. Seems like a good kid, and I wish him well. 

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Jim Kelly, Dan Marino, John Elway and Todd Bla

Kelly didn't appear until Marino had already carved out a legacy '83-'86 and shattered many single season marks during his time when he burst on the scene. 

 

[Ministry of Pain]

The AFC is brutal right now and will be for a looooong time. Burrow, Herbert, Allen and Mahomes. I can't imagine 4 better, young qbs in the same conference in league history. All should be mulitple super bowl winners normally but it's going to be tough facing each other every year.

Not to mention others that can catch fire and are with good organizations like Lamar Jackson for example

 

[voiceofunreason]

Not to mention others that can catch fire and are with good organizations like Lamar Jackson for example

For sure. Reminds me of the 80s and early 90s when the NFC won the super bowl every single year. 

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

The AFC is brutal right now and will be for a looooong time. Burrow, Herbert, Allen and Mahomes. I can't imagine 4 better, young qbs in the same conference in league history. All should be mulitple super bowl winners normally but it's going to be tough facing each other every year.

Peyton Manning, Ben Roethlisberger, and Phillip Rivers produced 4 rings in the 20 year Brady/Pats era but were touted as the elites would would set the world on fire.  So far your list has one ring...maybe two when this year is over.  There's a lot of space between your list and "all should be multiple super bowl winners".  "Should be" has a funny way of not working out in the NFL.

 

[Boston]

Not sure why I would need to say this after 22 years...but underestimate BB at your own risk.

 

[The Duff Man]

Not sure why I would need to say this after 22 years...but underestimate BB at your own risk.

His record without Brady is the counterpoint to the 22 year argument. 

 

[SoBeDad]

Not sure why I would need to say this after 22 years...but underestimate BB at your own risk.

In 8 seasons without Brady, BB has only had 2 winning seasons, including last years 10-7 record with a rookie QB, which is an accomplishment. With McDaniels leaving and limited cap space, it will be a challenge to rise much further. Unless Mac improves substantially on a good rookie season which is possible.

 

[Boston]

His record without Brady is the counterpoint to the 22 year argument. 

So you think he is the same Coach now he was in Cleveland?  He went 11-5 with Matt Cassell and just lead the Pats to a 10-7 record and the playoffs in the second year of a rebuild with a rookie QB and a lot of holes still on the roster...the year before he won 7 games on a team that had no business winning 4...I feel very confident he will continue to keep them moving in the right direction.  

 

[Boston]

In 8 seasons without Brady, BB has only had 2 winning seasons, including last years 10-7 record with a rookie QB, which is an accomplishment. With McDaniels leaving and limited cap space, it will be a challenge to rise much further. Unless Mac improves substantially on a good rookie season which is possible.

Depending on what they do cap space is probably limited this offseason but it explodes next offseason.

 

[Tau837]

In 8 seasons without Brady, BB has only had 2 winning seasons, including last years 10-7 record with a rookie QB, which is an accomplishment.

Seasons when Belichick was a head coach and didn't have Brady:

• 1991 - 6-10; Kosar was QB; +3 wins over 1990 3-13 team
  
• 1992 - 7-9; Mike Tomczak was leading QB, but played in only 8 games; 3 QBs (Tomczak, Kosar, Philcox) started at least 1 game
  
• 1993 - 7-9; Testaverde was leading QB, but played in only 10 games; 3 QBs (Testaverde, Kosar, Philcox) started at least 4 games each
  
• 1994 - 11-5; Testaverde was leading QB; Mark Rypien started 3 games
  
• 1995 - 5-11; Testaverde was leading QB, but Eric Zeier started 4 games; lame duck season before moving to Baltimore
  
• 2000 - 5-11; Bledsoe was QB
  
• 2008 - 11-5; Brady played half of the first quarter in game 1 before going down for the season; Cassell was QB the rest of the season
  
• 2016 - 2-0 with 2nd string QB Garropolo and 1-1 with 3rd string QB Brissett while Brady was suspended
  
• 2020 - 7-9; Newton at QB; team had to take a year to adjust to cap impact from previous decisions to win in Brady's window 
  
• 2021 - 10-7 with rookie QB Jones
  

That is 3 winning seasons out of 9 full seasons without Brady. Considering context (2 of losing seasons as first as new HC, 2 others with QB carousels, another in cap hell with washed up Newton at QB), IMO the "he only won with Brady" narrative is grossly oversimplified and misleading.

 

[SoBeDad]

Depending on what they do cap space is probably limited this offseason but it explodes next offseason.

Another plus for the Patriots is that they shouldn't have to spend much cap space or draft capital on a QB for a few more years.

 

[habsfan]

In 8 seasons without Brady, BB has only had 2 winning seasons, including last years 10-7 record with a rookie QB, which is an accomplishment. With McDaniels leaving and limited cap space, it will be a challenge to rise much further. Unless Mac improves substantially on a good rookie season which is possible.

Another possibility is that Mac improves courtesy of an improved receiving group. Maybe they can't make a big splash this offseason but it seems to be a need.

 

[SoBeDad]

Seasons when Belichick was a head coach and didn't have Brady:

• 1991 - 6-10; Kosar was QB; +3 wins over 1990 3-13 team
  
• 1992 - 7-9; Mike Tomczak was leading QB, but played in only 8 games; 3 QBs (Tomczak, Kosar, Philcox) started at least 1 game
  
• 1993 - 7-9; Testaverde was leading QB, but played in only 10 games; 3 QBs (Testaverde, Kosar, Philcox) started at least 4 games each
  
• 1994 - 11-5; Testaverde was leading QB; Mark Rypien started 3 games
  
• 1995 - 5-11; Testaverde was leading QB, but Eric Zeier started 4 games; lame duck season before moving to Baltimore
  
• 2000 - 5-11; Bledsoe was QB
  
• 2008 - 11-5; Brady played half of the first quarter in game 1 before going down for the season; Cassell was QB the rest of the season
  
• 2016 - 2-0 with 2nd string QB Garropolo and 1-1 with 3rd string QB Brissett while Brady was suspended
  
• 2020 - 7-9; Newton at QB; team had to take a year to adjust to cap impact from previous decisions to win in Brady's window 
  
• 2021 - 10-7 with rookie QB Jones
  

That is 3 winning seasons out of 9 full seasons without Brady. Considering context (2 of losing seasons as first as new HC, 2 others with QB carousels, another in cap hell with washed up Newton at QB), IMO the "he only won with Brady" narrative is grossly oversimplified and misleading.

It's hard to win unless your QB plays well, even if you're Belichick who is in the ballpark of Flores and Gase as a headcoach without Brady. You have to give credit to Belichick for winning bigtime over a long period with an elite QB. Shula wasted Marino's best years with a terrible defense. He was too loyal to bad coaches.

Belichick knows defense and how to keep an organization together even in bad times, like in 2020. He said he likes coaching. He's 26 behind Shula in total wins. At his current pace, it would take 3 more years of coaching and he'd be 72. 

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Not sure why I would need to say this after 22 years...but underestimate BB at your own risk.

This is the part I’ll always tip my cap to. Dude is a wizard. And running & defense still wins games in the NFL. 

IF the current QB can get to the next level, BB’s job will be much easier. But I have no doubt that as long as he’s coaching, his teams will be competitive. 

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

He went 11-5 with Matt Cassell

Matt parlayed that into a nice retirement plan. I remember the next year, dude at my draft took Cassell & yelled “steal of the draft!”

We mocked him for that alllllll year. I’m not sure what he thought he was getting, but I’m reasonably sure ~2900/16/16 is not it.  

 

[SoBeDad]

People will also say look what Brady did without Belichick. 13-4 and 11-5 with a superbowl win. That's not completely fair, as it's a team game,  and Brady had HOF and all-pros as receiving options, a good oline, great coach, plus a good defense, especially in the SB year. FWIW, if I were in a football draft with the categories players, head coaches, assistant coaches, GMs, Stadiums, SB commercials, SB performances, iconic games, etc I'd pick Brady over Belichick. 

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Another possibility is that Mac improves courtesy of an improved receiving group. Maybe they can't make a big splash this offseason but it seems to be a need.

One does have to question their recent track record in drafting WRs, but IMO Bourne is pretty solid. Meyers, Agholor & Harry are all pretty weak. 

BB’s been rock solid bringing in guys. I mean, HOF Moss is hard to miss on, but Welker was a terrific acquisition. Agholor is disappointingly inconsistent, but that’s the story of his career so far. 

Edelman certainly worked out well as a home-grown, but I’m not sure what they have in Meyers or Harry. Lot of holes to fill. 

 

[DropKick]

I am inclined to agree. And it's no knock on BB at all. Brilliant football coach. Absolutely without equal when it comes to strategy & gamesmanship. Allegedly cheating, too, but hey, it's pro sports. He's not the first to bend the rules to their breaking point. 

And while he is incredible at doing more with less, and playing to his team's strengths, as you & @voiceofunreason suggest, the AFC is loaded. And at some point, regardless of what the regular season looks like, they're going up against KC, CIN, BUF, BAL, and to a lesser extent LAC, likely Denver if they can get a QB (they're not too far away, otherwise). Miami is a coin flip IMO - they could get really good in a hurry, or they could go back into the terlet. That's still a brutal conference any way you slice it, with arguably the best most complete team in their own division for a home & home. 

And despite one person oddly claiming I've "ragged on" Mac Jones, I do think he's shown promise, but I am not yet convinced he's their QB of the future. I've seen him struggle to make "all the throws", as they say. He has moxie - I'll give him that. He's made some impressive plays. He's lived up to the pre-draft scouting reports for sure as the "most NFL-ready" of the QBs drafted in that class. He was also thought to have the lowest ceiling. He isn't the strongest armed QB (and doesn't have to be) but he's more mobile than we were led to believe. And yes, he could improve. Can he improve enough to become the next great Patriots QB and steward them to a championship?  Could be a while. 

Again, no knock on Jones, but if I were given a vegas prop bet over "the next Patriots QB to win a SB", and my choices were "Mac Jones" or "the field" (FA or next drafted QB), I'm probably betting the field. 

And I would be pleasantly surprised if I was wrong. Seems like a good kid, and I wish him well. 

The only thing odd is your weird back-tracking after getting called out for something that you denied and insisted did not happen.  After I reminded you of your statements, I would think you would crawl in a hole. 

Now you want to wish him well?  You actually called him a fraud.  Who uses words like that when describing rookies around the league?  And you still keep it going...  Quite a piece of work...

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

The only thing odd is your weird back-tracking after getting called out for something that you denied and insisted did not happen.  After I reminded you of your statements, I would think you would crawl in a hole. 

Now you want to wish him well?  You actually called him a fraud.  Who uses words like that when describing rookies around the league?  And you still keep it going...  Quite a piece of work...

You should find someone else to obsess over. 

You already looked like a fool for trying to call me out for “constantly ragging on him” when I never have. The you posted “proof” that wasn’t proof & looked even worse. 

now this insanity?  Get a life dude. Welcome to ignore. 

 

[DropKick]

You should find someone else to obsess over. 

You already looked like a fool for trying to call me out for “constantly ragging on him” when I never have. The you posted “proof” that wasn’t proof & looked even worse. 

now this insanity?  Get a life dude. Welcome to ignore. 

Team wins double digit games and makes play-offs with rookie QB.  Jones has best season of incoming QB class.

I could have posted more from that thread.  But saying they got it done with bubble gum and spit; are frauds; and still haven't found a QB.  You even went as far as comparing him (negatively) to Brady.  So, keep telling yourself that you're an unbiased, objective observer.

I won't ignore you despite the drivel.  Its kind of a lame move.

 

[Tau837]

@DropKick and @Hot Sauce Guy: Please stop ruining this thread with your bickering that no one else cares about.  

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

@DropKick and @Hot Sauce Guy: Please stop ruining this thread with your bickering that no one else cares about.  

I wasn’t even addressing that weirdo. I responded to someone else on topic & he’s fixated on me.

I have nothing to do with it & already put him on ignore. It’s weird as hell & I want nothing to do with it.

it’s a 1-sided affair. 

 

[FBG Moderator]

@DropKick and @Hot Sauce Guy: Please stop ruining this thread with your bickering that no one else cares about.  

100%.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Not sure why I would need to say this after 22 years...but underestimate BB at your own risk.

In 8 seasons without Brady, BB has only had 2 winning seasons, including last years 10-7 record with a rookie QB, which is an accomplishment. With McDaniels leaving and limited cap space, it will be a challenge to rise much further. Unless Mac improves substantially on a good rookie season which is possible.

I enjoy posting with both of you, I wanted to weigh in here before the bickering started in here, 

-I am of the belief that Coach BB can find another golden child to be his OC, Coach Bill is excellent at building assistant coaches and the proof is in how many get hired repeatedly, and I understand wanting Brady over Coach BB, I think to dismiss Coach BB because of McDaniel and the Cap, this isn't the patriots 1st rodeo and 10-7 was a nice accomplishment, see what Jones does in Year 2 but I would bet the patriots will continue to surround him with strong RBs which they have a pretty nice 1-2 punch going, might need to strengthen the OL a little more but they are going to be solid. 

Boston always gives me a POV on the Pats I might be overlooking, SoBeDad my fellow Phin. 

Cheers!

 

[Ministry of Pain]

I am inclined to agree. And it's no knock on BB at all. Brilliant football coach. Absolutely without equal when it comes to strategy & gamesmanship. Allegedly cheating, too, but hey, it's pro sports. He's not the first to bend the rules to their breaking point. 

And while he is incredible at doing more with less, and playing to his team's strengths, as you & @voiceofunreason suggest, the AFC is loaded. And at some point, regardless of what the regular season looks like, they're going up against KC, CIN, BUF, BAL, and to a lesser extent LAC, likely Denver if they can get a QB (they're not too far away, otherwise). Miami is a coin flip IMO - they could get really good in a hurry, or they could go back into the terlet. That's still a brutal conference any way you slice it, with arguably the best most complete team in their own division for a home & home. 

And despite one person oddly claiming I've "ragged on" Mac Jones, I do think he's shown promise, but I am not yet convinced he's their QB of the future. I've seen him struggle to make "all the throws", as they say. He has moxie - I'll give him that. He's made some impressive plays. He's lived up to the pre-draft scouting reports for sure as the "most NFL-ready" of the QBs drafted in that class. He was also thought to have the lowest ceiling. He isn't the strongest armed QB (and doesn't have to be) but he's more mobile than we were led to believe. And yes, he could improve. Can he improve enough to become the next great Patriots QB and steward them to a championship?  Could be a while. 

Again, no knock on Jones, but if I were given a vegas prop bet over "the next Patriots QB to win a SB", and my choices were "Mac Jones" or "the field" (FA or next drafted QB), I'm probably betting the field. 

And I would be pleasantly surprised if I was wrong. Seems like a good kid, and I wish him well. 

-Paid homage to BB, questions Mac Jones taking the next step, I can't find fault with that analysis.

Not sure why folks are finding beef with these posts, this one was very well thought out IMHO.  

 

[Anarchy99]

I enjoy posting with both of you, I wanted to weigh in here before the bickering started in here, 

-I am of the belief that Coach BB can find another golden child to be his OC, Coach Bill is excellent at building assistant coaches and the proof is in how many get hired repeatedly, and I understand wanting Brady over Coach BB, I think to dismiss Coach BB because of McDaniel and the Cap, this isn't the patriots 1st rodeo and 10-7 was a nice accomplishment, see what Jones does in Year 2 but I would bet the patriots will continue to surround him with strong RBs which they have a pretty nice 1-2 punch going, might need to strengthen the OL a little more but they are going to be solid. 

Boston always gives me a POV on the Pats I might be overlooking, SoBeDad my fellow Phin. 

Cheers!

NE keeps the same system. OCs are not asked to bring anything new to the system and are asked to keep to the same playbook the team has used for 15-20 years. That’s the opposite of how a lot of other teams do things. In that regard, an OC in NE is an interchangeable part of the puzzle. Bill O’Brien makes the most sense, but there’s also been talk of Joe Judge coming back to run the offensive play calling. 

 

[Boston]

I enjoy posting with both of you, I wanted to weigh in here before the bickering started in here, 

-I am of the belief that Coach BB can find another golden child to be his OC, Coach Bill is excellent at building assistant coaches and the proof is in how many get hired repeatedly, and I understand wanting Brady over Coach BB, I think to dismiss Coach BB because of McDaniel and the Cap, this isn't the patriots 1st rodeo and 10-7 was a nice accomplishment, see what Jones does in Year 2 but I would bet the patriots will continue to surround him with strong RBs which they have a pretty nice 1-2 punch going, might need to strengthen the OL a little more but they are going to be solid. 

Boston always gives me a POV on the Pats I might be overlooking, SoBeDad my fellow Phin. 

Cheers!

Right now there are definitely questions about the Pats staff...many think they are too green/yes men and that was even before McDaniels left and Fears retired...there is a bubbling issue with his son Steve...the feeling by many locally is he was not ready for his role last year but since it is BB's kid that may just be how it goes...the money is on Bill O'Brien to replace McDaniels which is kind of a catch-22...as far as OC goes it's a solid hire but the worry is he now inherits the role as BB's successor from McDaniels which is probably not a good thing but that is all speculation...the eyes are really on the defensive-side of the ball and what goes on there between his son, Mayo or if they bring in someone else.

 

[ChiefD]

Jim Kelly, Dan Marino, John Elway and Todd Bla

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

• 1991 - 6-10; Kosar was QB; +3 wins over 1990 3-13 team
  
• 1992 - 7-9; Mike Tomczak was leading QB, but played in only 8 games; 3 QBs (Tomczak, Kosar, Philcox) started at least 1 game
  
• 1993 - 7-9; Testaverde was leading QB, but played in only 10 games; 3 QBs (Testaverde, Kosar, Philcox) started at least 4 games each
  
• 1994 - 11-5; Testaverde was leading QB; Mark Rypien started 3 games
  
• 1995 - 5-11; Testaverde was leading QB, but Eric Zeier started 4 games; lame duck season before moving to Baltimore
  

As any good Belichick fan will be able to tell you, the 95 Browns started 5-0 and then Modell's treachery / the team sale to Baltimore was announced. 

1991 demonstrated Kozar's ceiling (though much beloved to this day in Cleveland, Kozar was part of the losing culture that BB inherited, see "The Education of a Coach" for all the ugly details. 

1992 and 1993 were QB injury years.

So, BB turned a 3 win team into an 11-5 / 5-0 team before Modell blew it all up.  BB remains unpopular to this day in Cleveland because he ran off Kozar and others, but the fact of the matter is he had the franchise turned around until Modell sold out.

 

[Anarchy99]

IMO, the whole Team Brady vs. Team Belichick discussions are silly. Clearly neither one would have been as successful without the other. Lennon AND McCartney = greatness. Lennon OR McCartney . . . sometimes great, but not as much.

Sure, Brady was the leader of the offense and in the clubhouse. But he didn't build great defenses, he didn't manage the salary cap like no other franchise in the league, he didn't scheme how to beat opponents or call all the plays, he didn't bring in the right puzzle pieces to fill the roster, and he was one of many players each week that had a role to fill. When TB12 started getting agita over his offensive weapons, the team went overboard to bring in new faces and reshape the offense. They frequently led the league in scoring . . . and went 10 years without winning a title.

BB will be the first one to explain no matter how well coached the players may be, no matter what game plan they come up with, it's the players that have to execute and produce on the field of play. Bill never scored a TD in the clutch or pulled out a nail biter . . . he was a spectator on the sidelines. Excellence of Execution. Brady was great at that.

To me, how many Super Bowls did HOF coaches win without their HOF quarterbacks? Sure, the Niners won with both Montana and Young and The Artist Formerly Known As Redskins and Joe Gibbs won with three different QB's. Andy Reid has been very successful with the Chiefs and Mahomes . . . but he didn't win a title in PHI and has a slightly better than .500 record in the playoffs. People tend to forget just how difficult it is to win in the NFL . . . and the BB/TB pairing won a lot of games across almost two decades of football.

Yes, Brady won again with the Buccaneers, but Tampa had a lot stronger roster than the Patriots did at the end. Hats off to Tom for turning things around for the Bucs, but if he stayed the past two years in NE, they weren't winning the SB even with Tom at the helm.

It remains to be seen if BB can retool the Patriots roster to better compete in the current version of the NFL. He many never get back to the SB or win a title, but just about every team in the league would welcome Bill with open arms to coach their franchise.

 

[SoBeDad]

IMO, the whole Team Brady vs. Team Belichick discussions are silly. Clearly neither one would have been as successful without the other. Lennon AND McCartney = greatness. Lennon OR McCartney . . . sometimes great, but not as much.

Sure, Brady was the leader of the offense and in the clubhouse. But he didn't build great defenses, he didn't manage the salary cap like no other franchise in the league, he didn't scheme how to beat opponents or call all the plays, he didn't bring in the right puzzle pieces to fill the roster, and he was one of many players each week that had a role to fill. When TB12 started getting agita over his offensive weapons, the team went overboard to bring in new faces and reshape the offense. They frequently led the league in scoring . . . and went 10 years without winning a title.

BB will be the first one to explain no matter how well coached the players may be, no matter what game plan they come up with, it's the players that have to execute and produce on the field of play. Bill never scored a TD in the clutch or pulled out a nail biter . . . he was a spectator on the sidelines. Excellence of Execution. Brady was great at that.

To me, how many Super Bowls did HOF coaches win without their HOF quarterbacks? Sure, the Niners won with both Montana and Young and The Artist Formerly Known As Redskins and Joe Gibbs won with three different QB's. Andy Reid has been very successful with the Chiefs and Mahomes . . . but he didn't win a title in PHI and has a slightly better than .500 record in the playoffs. People tend to forget just how difficult it is to win in the NFL . . . and the BB/TB pairing won a lot of games across almost two decades of football.

Yes, Brady won again with the Buccaneers, but Tampa had a lot stronger roster than the Patriots did at the end. Hats off to Tom for turning things around for the Bucs, but if he stayed the past two years in NE, they weren't winning the SB even with Tom at the helm.

It remains to be seen if BB can retool the Patriots roster to better compete in the current version of the NFL. He many never get back to the SB or win a title, but just about every team in the league would welcome Bill with open arms to coach their franchise.

Shula should be mentioned, along with Belichick, when discussing the best coaches of all time and their  QBs. Shula went to 6 different Super Bowls with 4 different QBs. Unitas, Griese, Woodley and Marino. 3 of them future HOFers. If you include the role that Morrall played in SB 5 and 11 regular season wins during the Perfect Season, that's 5 QBs. Quite an accomplishment. Of course, Shula only won 2 SB games. I think his downfall during the Marino years was loyalty to bad coaches, especially on defense. He didn't have a salary cap to deal with like BB. The 2 best coaches in the modern era.