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HERD Mock NFL Draft - Round 1 (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Goat Herders
- Start date
Tau837
Footballguy
Ben may be bigger, but you're splitting hairs. Rivers is 6'5" 230. So in terms of seeing/throwing over the line, they are the same. In terms of strength, here is an interesting fact on Rivers: he benches 425. So he is very strong for a QB. I seriously doubt Ben is that strong.Ben has a better looking delivery, but that doesn't mean it is better. I renew the challenge I posed above: explain why Rivers' delivery will equate to problems in the NFL when it didn't in 51 college starts, including many starts against quality opponents.I admit I don't know as much about Ben as Rivers, but I seriously doubt he has all of the same intangible qualities (work ethic, knowledge of game, maturity, character, leadership, success under 3 different offensive coordinators, absolute zero injury history, played best in biggest games of career, etc.).Incidentally, please explain why you feel Ben's case was rock solid but Rivers' wasn't.
Goat Herders
Footballguy
I'm not knocking Rivers at all. I've watched him since he was tossing to to Koren Robinson (back when K-Rob could catch) and I've alwayes been impressed.I was simply stating that there ARE quantifiable attributes scouts look for in players. Ben's quantifiable attributes (height of delivery for example) are impressive enough already that someone is going to take him very high in the first round. Rivers, despite all of his successes, still has scouts saying, "He's the real deal, but that delivery scares me..." THus he's out there trying to show everyone that he can toss the deep ball over a big D-line, he can finesse the short pass, he can scramble with the best of them.I like Phillip Rivers. He has a quick enough release and a good enough head on his shoulders that he should have no problem working himself into a good NFL QB. However, when scouts are literally pouring over every microscopic difference in an effort to determine who is the best "investment" for their team, little differences between two guys like Ben and Phillip get harped upon.HERD
Goat Herders
Footballguy
To answer your question more directly, no sarcasm intended I swear...Tennessee Titans D-line: Juqua Thomas is 6'2. Everyone else on the line is 6'4, 6'5, or 6'6.Florida State D-line: Most of the scholarship guys got 6'2 or 6'3. Two are 6'4 or 6'5, and two are right at 6'0.Is it that big of a difference? Of course not. But when you're a GM trying to find your team's QB for the next decade, stuff like that is a HUGE deal.HERD
coolbeans59
Footballguy
Riddle me this Herd,Leaf vs. Garcia in QUANTIFIABLE attributes? Who "measured" better? ..... who turned out to be the better NFL QB???You (and every other NFL GM that grades measurables above game film and immeasurables (heart/leadership/desire)) can take those "QUANTIFIABLES" and run your franchise into the ground with Ryan Leaf .... I'll take Garcia ..... with a better value ..... of being picked up as a street free agent.Likewise, I'll take Rivers with the better value and the less risk (juniors that declare FAIL! (except Bledsoe .... the ONLY true exception)).
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Goat Herders
Footballguy
Uh...Cool Beans. I think you are taking this personally and I don't know why. I like Phillip Rivers. I happen to think he'll be fine. YOu asked a question in a thread that is a MOCK NFL DRAFT, that I have created using info I have to project what I think teams WILL do. You don't have to like it, but I assure you Rothlisberger is going in front of Rivers at the draft. I don't know who will be a better NFL Qb and for the purposes of this thread, I don't really care. I made a mock draft, thats all there is to it.HERD
coolbeans59
Footballguy
And I think it's going to be a BIG mistake.BTW: it's ROETHLISBERGER .... not Rothlisberger
coolbeans59
Footballguy
BTW, Herd ..... I'm not contesting your mock draft ...... I'm contesting the fact that it appears (from my perspective) that you're saying Roethlisberger is better than Rivers because of measurables .... which I think is a COLOSSAL mistake that teams in the NFL make, too many times.
Maybe you should wait for the combine and workouts before saying that. Currently, Rivers has a huge value jump because he was at the Senior Bowl and played well. Roethlesberger has better athletics, is bigger and has a better arm.He did not have the chance to showcase himself at the Senior bowl and get all the hype that Rivers did. I've seen Roethlesberger play live. The guy is flat out legit as a QB in pretty much all phases of the game and he's just big. Really big.I think Roeth goes earlier then Rivers and that is how it should be.Yo herd, what do you use for scouting? Websites? Publications? Paid sites?
coolbeans59
Footballguy
Stronger arm .... not better.Rivers has accuracy in DROVES over everyone in this draft.
Very true.But accuracy can be obtained through learning and practice. A cannon for an arm cannot.I'm not arguing with you, I think Rivers is going to be a super QB for years especially in the right system, but, the potential, athleticism and size of Roehtlesberger is pretty darn impressive in its own right.
this is shaping up to be a very good QB draft with 5 guys that could/should carry first-round grades: Manning, Roethlisberger, Rivers, Henson, and Losman.Nothing against Rivers, but don't discount Roethlisberger. He's more than just a big arm and far from becoming another Ryan Leaf.
coolbeans59
Footballguy
Accuracy can be refined, it can be adjusted SOME. But guys can only improve their accuracy so much.That's why I was so high on Leftwich and so down on Boller and Palmer last year. (and why I'm not much of a Vick fan) ..... accuracy is a gift as much as arm strength is.Arm strength can be improved thru specific training, but it can't be improved by much. (Garcia won't ever be Elway .... no matter how hard he trains). Likewise, accuracy can be honed to a point (Vick won't ever be a 64%+ passer, but he can be a 60% passer).All I know about Roethlisberger's accuracy was the 2 games I watched this year (they were probably his worst games of the year based on his final comp. %), and he was WAAAY too streaky.MEANWHILE, Rivers was awesome in every game I watched during his 4 years as a starter ..... but 70%+ completion % his senior year?!? That's BEYOND amazing! People can talk about how most of his passes were short ... blah-blah-blah .... he was money on ALL his throws in their bowl game (short, intermediate and long).
Irish
Footballguy
Not that it makes him any less of a qb, but there is no way in hell that Rivers bench presses 425 lbs. NO WAY! He is not a very physical specimen. And not that Herd needs defended, but he is just projecting how the nfl draft will go. Rivers mechanics won't hurt him in the NFL cause they say he still has a quick release. Favre most of the time doesn't use the best mechanics on his throws and I'd say he has done alright. With all that said Big Ben still gets drafted before Rivers just based on the measuarables. Which one turns out to be better will be decided in the future.Ben may be bigger, but you're splitting hairs. Rivers is 6'5" 230. So in terms of seeing/throwing over the line, they are the same. In terms of strength, here is an interesting fact on Rivers: he benches 425. So he is very strong for a QB. I seriously doubt Ben is that strong.Ben has a better looking delivery, but that doesn't mean it is better. I renew the challenge I posed above: explain why Rivers' delivery will equate to problems in the NFL when it didn't in 51 college starts, including many starts against quality opponents.I admit I don't know as much about Ben as Rivers, but I seriously doubt he has all of the same intangible qualities (work ethic, knowledge of game, maturity, character, leadership, success under 3 different offensive coordinators, absolute zero injury history, played best in biggest games of career, etc.).Incidentally, please explain why you feel Ben's case was rock solid but Rivers' wasn't.
coolbeans59
Footballguy
I agree, don't call him Leaf yet ...... but (if I remember right) 11 QB's have declared before their senior year .... names include
ilferBledsoeShulerLeafMaddoxCouchOnly ONE has had a "successful" NFL career (Bledsoe), the other has had a marginally successful NFL career (Dilfer) and the only reason he wasn't a complete wash is because B-more's D carried the team to a Lombardi trophy.The history of the last 14 years of underclass QB's is LITTERED with failed underclassmen, Roethlisberger has to overcome that hurdle. 1 for 11 is not a good ratio to be looking at.
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coolbeans59
Footballguy
Irish,Ever been to a weight lifting competion? Probably not, if you say theres NO WAY he could do that.
I'm sceptical about it myself, but I'm not going to totally discount it.
BTW: Bench press doesn't mean JACK when it comes to arm strength. I could bench 325 at one point, but still had a candy arm and couldn't throw the ball further than 35-40 yards.
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that is something that NFL teams will have to consider when evaluating Big Ben.But, do you honestly think that Peyton Manning or Eli Manning would have "failed" if they had come out after their junior years? Other than leaving after their junior year, is there any attribute that those "failed" QBs have in common with each other? Is there some reason to think Ben will be more like Heath Shuler or Drew Bledsoe?I'm just curious. Those numbers are not encouraging by any stretch, but Big Ben might just be a natural. I think part of the problem is the expectations that come along with being such a high draft pick. Many young QBs who go to a bad team don't have the mental toughness to handle early failure, but I happen to think Ben is a bit different in that respect so I'm more optimistic about his chances, provided he ends up in a good situation with a coach who doesn't throw him to the wolves right away.
Tau837
Footballguy
Regarding his bench, it is fact. It is posted on the wall in the N.C. State weight room. Note that this is his personal best max, not what he lifts on a daily basis.After his sophomore year at Meet the Pack day in front of 5000 witnesses he benched 375 with no problem. I'd say he could have pushed up by 50 pounds in the two years since given proper nutrition and training.
I realize bench does not equal arm strength. I was offering it as part of the size comparison between Rivers and Ben. They are the same height, but Ben outweighs Rivers by 10-15 pounds. I was just stating that even with the extra weight I doubt Ben is stronger, and I offered the bench as evidence.
coolbeans59
Footballguy
If there was one, you'd think some NFL team would've figured it out.Honestly, coming out early is the #1 reason I'm down on Ben. I think he's got the size, from what I hear he's a good kid (but Ryan Leaf did some great coverups prior to the 1999 draft).I'd love to hear from coaches, teammates, trainers, equipment managers, about what they think about Roethlisberger. Those lower level people will be able to tell you more about someone that a coach or teammate.What's Roeth's work ethic like? What's his ego like? Is it a good ego (gimme the ball, cuz i know I can win it)? or is it a bad ego (I'm better than everyone in this lockerroom .... you're just a trainer .... you're just a this/that)?Do I think he's got the tools? Absolutely! But I'll take a senior QB that's rated SLIGHTLY lower, over a junior NEARLY any day.
Roethlisberger just did an interview on Jim Rome's show, and said that although lots of people are telling him he's a top 5 pick, he doesn't listen to that is is going to keep doing his thing to get better.Also noted that these mock drafts don't interest him at all, and the only one he's concerned about is the draft on April 24th. I didn't hear the whole thing, but it sounded like the kid has a good head on his shoulders, and he was definately saying all the right things.
Goat Herders
Footballguy
I think you may be correct. If it were my team, I'd draft Gallery first and take Losman in the 2nd round, but that's just me...HERD
Goat Herders
Footballguy
I'd suggest that Michael Vick is doing an okay job so far in the NFL.
HERDBen was a star point guard in high school that put up 26pts/game his senior season. I think he only played QB in high school for like a year or two, so he really hasn't had a ton of experience. He went to Miami OH so he could play right away, and did well as a freshman. But, he will probably a bit more of a project than a guy like Leftwich. If he's brought along slowly like Pennington, I think he'll be fine.Also, just read a report that some rumors are going around that the Giants could deal Kerry Collins and then draft Ben Roethlisberger to replace him.If a team brings in Ben to start right away, I think that could wind up being a big mistake.
coolbeans59
Footballguy
it's WAAAAAAAAY too early to judge either ..... why I didn't mention them.Rex Grossman also looked pretty good late in the season for the Bears.I'd suggest that Michael Vick is doing an okay job so far in the NFL.
Goat Herders
Footballguy
Considering Vick won a playoff game at Green Bay, I'd offer that that is enough success to let the judging begin...HERD
coolbeans59
Footballguy
yeah, and a 69.0 passer rating and 50% completion % the year afteronly one full season as a starteronly 23 career starts...... too early
Irish
Footballguy
Yes I have been to a few bench pressing contests as well as participated in some. My experience from working out at various gyms is that guys tend to exagerate their bench pressing. During the Senior bowl they showed Rivers with his shirt off and he honestly looks like one of those skinny kids that always got picked on in school. No muscle mass at all. Again this has no bearing on how strong his arm is or what kind of qb he will be, but I seriously doubt this claim on how strong he is.
Tau837
Footballguy
This is what I referred to earlier... it was before his sophomore year, not after. From StateFans.com:
I realize that a fan message board is not necessarily all factual. So how about this? From philiprivers.com:
So unless you think he is flat lying, he can bench 400. And the question didn't ask him for his max, so it is possible that it is higher than that. If he could bench 400 in August, I would expect him to improve before the combine, given that he will be training for it.
Tony the Tiger
Footballguy
Herd, Love your analysis and it ma be a bit early but... when do anticipate the Herd 4.0? Just wondering what changes in your opion after mike williams decided to come out, the free-agent moves, the trades and some of the early combine results.
I was just thinking about this today. I believe everything is lining up for the Redskins to draft Kellen Winslow. The Redskins will address all of their "needs" via free agency and then take the best available player. Some positions like QB, OL, probably WR and Rb, will be excluded. My gut is they are going to draft Winslow and they are not going to trade down.
Goat Herders
Footballguy
The new Mock will be up either Monday or Tuesday. I'm trying to let the "big fish" of free agency find their new ponds or else some of this won't make much sense. For example, if the Patriots lose Damien Woody, I think they'll keep both of their 1st rounders and use one on an O-lineman as opposed to trading up as some have speculated. That sort of thing...Now, I'm going to get some coffee (and bourbon) and then I'll tkae a look at the headlines for today.Thanks for your continued interest.HERD
Goat Herders
Footballguy
And you sir have stumbled upon why there has not been a new Mock in some time. Lets let the FA bit settle itself a little more...HERD
GreedoShotFirst
Footballguy
drum drum, drum drum
HellToupee
Footballguy
Why yes indeed he was drafted by the Patriots.
beef
Footballguy
I've been working on my mock for the last week. The FA moves do make it a little tougher as things change.I'm looking forward to seeing 4.0 HERD. Hopefully I'll have a 1.0 done soon too. I'm also planning on having a few trades in mine for some added fun. Right now I think I have 2. San Diego and NYG, and Ariz and Pitt.
