KCitons
Footballguy
Flight risk could be part of it. The other part may be they believe Lloyd was killed to cover up the other murders. AH is a threat to society if he is willing to kill people to cover up previous crimes.
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Hernandez convicted of first-degree murder; found deceased in his cell. (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter Faust
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mad sweeney
Footballguy
Sarnoff
Footballguy
AH's attorney can argue that AH tried to stop the shooting. Perhaps he grabbed the gun away from the shooter to stop him from firing more?Shanahanigans said:
There's still no evidence that points to AH, alone, and not to everyone else in the car. But everyone else is getting sweetheart deals to point the finger at one guy. That's prosecutorial bulls###.
As far as a conspiracy, if AH conspired to "threaten" Lloyd, but when he saw the gun come out he said "Wait, stop, we just want to scare him, not shoot him"... he may not be guilty of conspiracy. Maurile had a post on this earlier. It depends on how local laws are worded.
All the evidence in this case against AH being the shooter is from uncorroborated accomplices. Such testimony may not even make it inside a courtroom.
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Anarchy99
Footballguy
Not sure where the 6 people is coming from. I thought it was AH and two of his goon friends. Add in Lloyd and that makes 4 guys total in a car with one guy never getting back in it.Sarnoff said:
I have seen/heard several lawyers discussing this in in the media that indicated if AH wanted to claim he was not involved and someone else did it, he would have needed to claim that immediately and fully cooperate with the authorities from the beginning. He would have had to say who actually did it and then help the cops with their case and investigation. And apparently you can't try to argue that someone else did it and you had nothing to do with it 2 years later when you go to trial if you didn't state that up front and did nothing to cooperate.
Short of doing that, he would be open to a charge of conspiracy to commit murder. And conspiracy apparently carries the same penalty as murder. Essentially, if all three guys clam up and won't rat on the others, they all can be charged with the same thing and subject to the same sentence as if they did pull the trigger. If it were so easy to get away with murder with two or more people involved, then all murders would involve multiple parties.
So based if the attorneys that discussed this ad naseum 6-8 months ago are right, it does not appear AH has done anything at all to assist the police or cooperate with their investigation. And given the law that conspiracy carries the same weight as actual murder, then whether AH actually pulled the trigger or not may not make any difference.
From what little we think we know, it doesn't sound like they will have difficulty putting AH at the scene of the crime between the cell phone GS records and the video footage. And it doesn't sound like they will have a hard time putting AH in the car that had the gun in it (shell casing in the car still at the rental car company).
And given the videotape footage they have, I think they should be able to rule out that someone else besides those 3 guys shot Lloyd. I think AH is going to struggle to get out of this. For example, if someone went into a bank with a loaded weapon to rob a bank, the legal assumption is that the perp intended to use the gun in the first place, so it is classified as armed robbery (which carries a much stiffer sentence). IIRC, robbing a bank with no bullets in the gun carries a lesser charge.
In Hernandez' case, he called the goons to come "have a talk" with Lloyd. So there may be a legal linking to the end result (if he didn't call them Lloyd would not have been shot) that makes this premeditated. The other two guys just didn't happen to show up and shoot Lloyd. So while we don't know exactly what happened, there are plenty of things that could be ruled out that happened or didn't happen.
Shanahanigans
Footballguy
Little proof? Did you not watch the arraignment? They have physical evidence (the gravel in the wheel-well, missing ammunition, and more), they have a minute by minute GPS account of where Hernandez was thanks to his iPhone, they have video evidence of Hernandez carrying a gun he can no longer produce minutes after the murder, they have him obstructing the investigation by smashing his phone and security system, they have texts from Hernandez to the victim, they have a text from the victim to his sister implying he is blaming Hernandez for the situation he is in minutes before he is murdered, they have video of Hernandez driving the car, they have texts from AH to his fellow conspirators proving he organized the whole thing, they have witnesses at the club which offer a motive, they have a mysterious house cleaning, and more. What the hell more do you guys want?
I feel like the AH apologists would only believe he is guilty if there was a video of Hernandez holding up his ID and a newspaper from that day, then saying I am Aaron Hernandez, this is Odin Loyd, this is my gun, and now I am going to kill him. Seriously, you guys are defense attorney's wet dreams, and a part of why the justice system in the US is so flawed.
Shanahanigans
Footballguy
Occam's razor man. You are really grasping at straws.
Even if he only conspired to 'threaten' Lloyd and it escalated to murder due to someone else's actions, Hernandez would be guilty of Conspiracy to Commit 2nd Degree Murder.
No, a lot of the evidence is from AH's iPhone, the victim's texts, AH's own security system, and AH's inability to produce a gun he is seen holding minutes after the Lloyd murder.
Also, why do you always forget about the weapons charges? There is no way he avoids a guilty charge on those.
So if he's convicted of a lesser charge it could be something like a 5 yr sentence though. Seems almost impossible he plays in the NFL again but he could be out of jail at a pretty young age.
Sarnoff
Footballguy
Occom's Razor does not apply. "Beyond a reasonable doubt" is the standard that must be applied. You don't convict someone based on "the most likely of many possible scenarios", you can only convict based on "no other explanation is even 1% possible".
mad sweeney
Footballguy
msommer
Footballguy
Anarchy99
Footballguy
The difference is Joe Q. Public didn't have a cache of guns in his possession, was not videotaped with the same type of gun in his hand minutes after the murder, and did not return a rented car with a shell casing from the murder in it. Another difference is that the 4 people at the murder scene all went there together. It's not like 4 random people by fate bumped into each other on a street corner one night and one of them died.
As for the lack of a murder weapon, who cares? We know Lloyd died from gun shot wounds. So what? Lloyd was still shot to death. If the cops found the gun in a lake with no fingerprints on it, that doesn't help their case any. It's not like Lloyd disappeared and they have no body and no cause of death.
Amused to Death
Footballguy
Bail:
The main reasons for refusing bail are that the defendant is accused of an imprisonable offence and there are substantial grounds for believing that the defendant would:
The court should take into account the:
- Nature and seriousness of the offence or default (and the probable method of dealing with the defendant for it)
- Character, antecedents, associations and community ties of the defendant,
- Defendant's bail record, and
- Strength of the evidence[19]
ETA: Is AH really an internationally recognizable person? I'm thinking no.
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Bob Magaw
Footballguy
Again, how many murders would it take to get your attention. We have a double murder and a possible witness murder related to the first double homicide. People seem to end up dead when he is nearby. Would 10 separate murders get your attention... 20... 30?
Also, we may have a witness homicide. So if you let him out on bail, and another witness dies a block from his home where he is waving a gun around like scarface minutes later, do you let him walk on bail AGAIN? What if a third witness is than murdered a block from his home, etc. How many murdered witnesses would it take for you to say maybe bail isn't a genius move?
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fantasycurse42
Footballguy Jr.
Who are these "four friends"? I'm only aware of Ortiz and Wallace... Furthermore neither of these guys had any prior relationship with Lloyd, so why would they want to kill him?
Lastly, have you listened to the evidence? Did you watch the arraignment?
http://m.youtube.com...h?v=T8einH-qELc
I suggest you do so bc there is a mountain of evidence. If the evidence mentioned at the arraignment is true, then I have no doubt at all he is guilty. Even if he wasn't the triggerman (which I'd bet a testicle he was), he still orchestrated this and intent means nothing, even "if he only wanted to scare the guy" - which is absurd anyways.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
I am shocked that bail was not set at some point. They must really feel he is a risk to run. They also have systematically gone after everyone he has ever known it seems, many turning on him and while I don't think they can release everything to the public it does seem as though they have many of these associates set or lined up to point to Hernandez as the trigger man.
You brought up OJ but there were not other eye witnesses in the car with him going to and from Nicole's house so I think the deck is stacked even further against Hernandez…that said I do feel there is about a 10-20% chance he walks because of how fickle juries can sometimes be. Jury selection will be crucial.
i am not a legal expert but don't people indited for cold blooded murder generally not get bail?
Anarchy99
Footballguy
You said there is a chance he could walk. So how does he skate on the 5 counts of illegal possession of fire arms? He could get 5 years just from that. I don't see there being any wiggle room on those charges, given that they were in his possession in his house. Did the gun fairy come and plant them in his locked safe in his house?
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
The motive for Hernandez's last alleged murder seems obvious. Shut the guy up who is blabbing to people about something you had kept under wraps for a good while. Hernandez IMO made a fatal error in that he was super sloppy and he also way overreacted to information being passed in a club. Even if he started to spill the beans, Hernandez should have started figuring out a story or burning all evidence that would connect him to the crime. Then he should have told his brother in law that if he ever catches him leaking that info again he would beat his face in and beat him within an inch of his life…I think that would have worked out a lot better.
There can't be much issue that one of the people in that vehicle that night pulled the trigger. Home video surveillance has Hernandez with the murder weapon in hand walking around his house…i said 10-20%, maybe less than 5% chance he can walk.
The police are doing an outstanding and patient job of linking everything and IMO dotting their "I's" and crossing their "T's"
When the trial does start I feel the prosecution is gonna make it almost impossible for a jury to not convict him.
There can't be much issue that one of the people in that vehicle that night pulled the trigger. Home video surveillance has Hernandez with the murder weapon in hand walking around his house…i said 10-20%, maybe less than 5% chance he can walk.
The police are doing an outstanding and patient job of linking everything and IMO dotting their "I's" and crossing their "T's"
When the trial does start I feel the prosecution is gonna make it almost impossible for a jury to not convict him.
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Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
UR right 99, I just always think juries can be flaky and all it takes is 1 or 2 of the 12 to decide they don't want to go with the flow and suddenly you might have a chance to get off the Murder charges.
I'm with you if you think this guy murdered and deserves to rot in prison the rest of his life, you'll get no fight from me.
Shanahanigans
Footballguy
DA: Aaron Hernandez discussed Odin Lloyd slaying in phone calls from jail
If this turns out to be true, Hernandez is even dumber than I thought, which I thought was not possible. His level of stupidity knows no bounds.
Cue Sarnoff to explain why these claims are irrelevant and how AH will still walk away a free man and play in the NFL again.
http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2014-01-31/aaron-hernandez-murder-charge-odin-lloyd-phone-calls-from-jail-shayanna-jenkins?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl3%7Csec1_lnk2%26pLid%3D437415
If this turns out to be true, Hernandez is even dumber than I thought, which I thought was not possible. His level of stupidity knows no bounds.
Cue Sarnoff to explain why these claims are irrelevant and how AH will still walk away a free man and play in the NFL again.
http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2014-01-31/aaron-hernandez-murder-charge-odin-lloyd-phone-calls-from-jail-shayanna-jenkins?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl3%7Csec1_lnk2%26pLid%3D437415
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Sarnoff
Footballguy
I don't see any indications of what what actually said. Only that 'he discussed the slaying of Odin Lloyd'. Well, since that's why he's in jail, I'm sure it's a common topic of conversation. The article doesn't say "he discussed how he pulled the trigger" or "he discussed his involvement in luring Lloyd to the location" or anything else. Just that a conversation about his case, while he's in jail, occurred. So what? If I'm arrested for something and I get a phone call, you could bet that the subject of whatever I was charged with will come up. For all we know he denied it. The prosecutor says they think AH talked about his "subjective belief about his criminal liability". What does that mean? Maybe he said "I didn't do it, and I think the facts will prove me not guilty." That's a subjective belief about his liability, isn't it? "Zero" is an amount of liability.
Let's hear what he said before we assume this is a nail in his coffin.
Also, the whole "talking in code" thing has to be taken with a grain of salt. Of course the prosecutor thinks he's cracked the code. But how can he prove it? He's gonna say "AH said 'give jimmy 3 bananas' and that meant 'shoot Frank 3 times'," then AH's team is gonna say "Nah, that really meant something else entirely." Who can prove anything? Unless they have hours and hours of the same code being used over and over, it's all gonna be subjective. They had years of recordings of mob bosses and the codes were always the weakest part of the case.
And as stupid as you think AH is for "discussing his case while in jail" (really? that's stupid? what else is he going to talk about?) how dumb is the prosecutor for reminding him that his phone calls are recorded? Maybe if he really did do it, he was finally going to confess and now the DA screwed it up.
Shanahanigans
Footballguy
cobalt_27
Footballguy
False Start
Footballguy
Thats because all the information never presents itself at one time. We all knew from the get go their was a lot of circumstantial evidence and this is another reason why a man not convicted of a crime should not be in prison. Maybe a ankle bracelet and house arrest, but leaving a possible innocent man behind bars bothers me a good bit as it has bothered some others from reading over older posts.
DropKick
Footballguy
Too bad Hernandez isn't even remotely "possibly innocent". It's conceivable he didn't pull a trigger (although I doubt it) but no, not innocent by any means.
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
It also makes it pretty likely that prosecutors have decided they don't need his testimony.
The WW pickups this morning are
The WW pickups this morning are
What if they find both those guys guilty? I forget the details but how many guys can you pin a single murder on?
They want to nail the big name with the worst charge.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
If there are multiple people involved, they can charge them each with conspiracy to commit murder, and they all can be convicted with the equivalent of murder one.
False Start
Footballguy
This always bothers me when a guy so far away listens to what is said in the media and put out there by the people trying to convince everyone he is guilty, the prosecutors. Not even possibly innocent huh?
fantasycurse42
Footballguy Jr.
Are you serious? This is simple:He demands his friends get up there from CT to come chill... He then needs weed from his connect Odin. He goes with his boys to get him. To avoid his fiancé from finding out he smokes weed, they go to a secluded are near the house. Ortiz and Wallace are angered by the skimpy bag so they shoot Lloyd.
Simple.
ETA: this is sarcasm just in case it needs to be pointed out
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Sarnoff
Footballguy
AH is sick of Lloyd and calls his friends up to put a scare into him. One of the friends, on his own without discussing it with AH, thinks an abandoned lot is a good place to have scary conversation. A different friend has misunderstood AH's instructions, and brought a gun thinking it might be necessary to use it. He gets Lloyd down on his knees and puts a gun to his head. Hernandez says "Wait, stop, this has gone too far, let's chill and get out of here. Give me the gun and let's go." The friend says "Nah, f### this punk" and shoots him. AH panics.bucsbaby said:
In that scenario, he's no longer a part of any conspiracy, having backed out fast enough, as Maurile posted earlier. Innocent of all charges.
And, then imagine once the story hits the press, the two friends say to each other, "No way you or me could escape the rap on this. But Aaron can afford the best lawyers. Let's both tell the D.A. he pulled the trigger. Better him than us." There are no other witnesses to what actually happened.
Of course, that's the reason that uncorroborated accomplice testimony is generally inadmissible in court.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
Even when you spin a yarn, you need to account for basic facts. His own security camera caught poor innocent AH waving around a gun like Scarface minutes after Lloyd was murdered. That isn't consistent with your narrative.
False Start
Footballguy
One scenario is a jury of his peers could say so.bucsbaby said:
DropKick
Footballguy
Innocence has nothing to do with a jury of his peers because, one thing you're right about - juries can be unpredictable and even a little soft. But no, there is "no way" that Hernandez is innocent.
And please stop with the idea that we're brainwashed by the media. I think you've deluded yourself playing the contrarian.
I'll play along...give a plausible scenario that would lead a jury to conclude that he is innocent of all charges
Run It Up
Footballguy
Jello_Biafra
Footballguy
I'm fairly certain that I wouldn't have posted that your scenario would make him no longer a part of any conspiracy. I'm not an expert on Massachusetts law, but it's possible that Hernandez would have needed to report the crime (or at least not attempt to cover it up) in order to defeat a conspiracy charge.
And in any case, being innocent of conspiracy to commit murder does not make him innocent of all charges. He's guilty of the gun charges.
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Holy Schneikes
Footballguy
People can't be serious with this "he's not been convicted of anything so he should be set free" stuff. Have you really thought this through?
So I go out and kill a guy tonight. There is one witness, and not much other evidence. The witness reports the crime. I get arrested, but then go kill the witness because I can't be imprisoned with a full trial. Problem solved.
This is what Grand Juries are for, they determine if there is enough evidence to merit a full trial, and they determine the bail amount or if bail is to be denied, based on lots of factors - type of crime, whether the defendant is likely to take off, etc. This is a cold-blooded murder we are talking now, whether AH did it or not. They don't just let POTENTIAL cold blooded murderers go, and say "Come on back and see us now, y'hear?". An ankle bracelet is not going to stop a guilty guy with any kind of reasonable finances from going to some non-extradition country and living the rest of his days in comfort instead of a jail cell.
Would it suck to be locked up if you were innocent? Yes, it certainly would. But as a society, that is much preferable to the alternative, where murderers go free and commit more murders.
So I go out and kill a guy tonight. There is one witness, and not much other evidence. The witness reports the crime. I get arrested, but then go kill the witness because I can't be imprisoned with a full trial. Problem solved.
This is what Grand Juries are for, they determine if there is enough evidence to merit a full trial, and they determine the bail amount or if bail is to be denied, based on lots of factors - type of crime, whether the defendant is likely to take off, etc. This is a cold-blooded murder we are talking now, whether AH did it or not. They don't just let POTENTIAL cold blooded murderers go, and say "Come on back and see us now, y'hear?". An ankle bracelet is not going to stop a guilty guy with any kind of reasonable finances from going to some non-extradition country and living the rest of his days in comfort instead of a jail cell.
Would it suck to be locked up if you were innocent? Yes, it certainly would. But as a society, that is much preferable to the alternative, where murderers go free and commit more murders.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
How often does that happen? How many pseudo-celebs get out on bail and go on a killing spree?
BTW:I am a little surprised he didn't get bail but I have no problem with him rotting in jail right now.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
I think AH could have gotten bail if he cooperated with the authorities more. But he didn't, he destroyed evidence, and otherwise acted the part of the thug he is getting made out to be.
One could argue that if he were involved in committing the crime, then he really had no choice but to do what he did . . . which led the cops to charge him with murder one and no bail.
Things might have been different if he claimed innocence and sold out one of the other guys. That's when he could have set up a lot in the reasonable doubt category. He could have said one of the other guys started mouthing off with Lloyd and pulled out a gun and shot him. He probably would have ended up with the gun charges still but probably an accessory to murder charge instead. But he probably would be out on bail and might not be facing life in prison.
Holy Schneikes
Footballguy
How many times would it have to happen for it to be OK?
AH is already accused of more or less killing a guy to cover up another murder. If it really looks like it's going to come down to one dude's testimony, what's one more body? Likely? No. But within the realm of possibility? Certainly.
But it's not JUST that anyway, it's also flight risk. Like I said, how many real murderers who know they are going to be convicted are going to stick around? If they are rich, they will disappear. And if they aren't and need to go on the lam, what kids of activities are they going to partake in to make a living do you think?
Sarnoff
Footballguy
Add this:
...immediately afterward, he grabbed the gun away from his friend, and panicked. Did not think of the consequences of his actions. Decided to call his agent and say he's in some trouble. His agent said, "if there's evidence, get rid of it". Then put him in touch with a very bad lawyer who gave him bad advice, like "don't report it right away, let's figure out our response first." By the time he got good legal advice, it was too late and the police were searching his house based on the information given to them by the actual killers looking to frame him. He's one or two legal malpractice suits away from a not-guilty verdict.
If they'd found gunpowder residue on AH, the DA certainly would have said so by now. There's still no indication he pulled the trigger. Until there is, a lot of scenarios are within the realm of possibility.
Hard to imagine any lawyer, no matter how bad, advising his client to obstruct justice
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Let's take all these "what if" scenarios that are out there and roll them up together. It sounds like the law in MA is that if someone appears to have been killed by unnatural causes and several people were all there together, the law requires you to state your intentions of saying you were not involved at the beginning . . . NOT two years later when you go to trial.
For example, suppose there is a shooting at an intersection and the police arrive. Two people are dead, the shooter takes off, and there are two witnesses. If the two witnesses help apprehend the shooter and aid in their investigation, they would not be charged with anything and the shooter would be the sole person charged.
From the legal eagles that I have heard, they have indicated that AH would have to tell the authorities he wasn't involved, aid them in their investigation, provide them with evidence against the others, and rat on the offending party or parties. If not, the law allows all three of them to be charged with conspiracy to commit murder . . . which carries the same sentence as if any of them had been charged individually with murder.
So AH has the responsibility to cooperate with authorities, aid them in determining the "true killer," supply them with evidence to support his claims that "the other guy" did it, and help the cops build a case against someone else. If the lawyers that have been interviewed on tv are accurate, he CAN'T later say someone else did it and he was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Holy Schneikes
Footballguy
Even if these scenarios were more plausible than they seem to me, in any of them, AH is still committing multiple felonies. At least gun charges and obstruction charges, and very possibly still on the hook for conspiracy charges. Claiming poor legal advise doesn't excuse felonies.
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