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:( The problem with putting ANY guy who was primarily a ST player IMO is that there are undoubtedly many guys on their own team who started on offense or defense who COULD have playd ST better. Teams don't do that because they don't want to tire out or risk injury to their best players, who are position players. No ST player deserves to be in the HOF. Guys play ST because they are not good enough to start on offense or defense. Period.
After thinking about this some more and reviewing the careers of these players, I decided I'd put Randle and Dawson ahead of Sharpe and Brown. Since Williams didn't make the finalists cut, I'd go with Rice, Smith, Randle, Dawson, and Sharpe.That said, I think Brown and Carter should and will make it in the near future. There is an interesting discussion of this on the PFR blog.
Chase, I never responded to this.1. I don't understand your reservations on including "clutchness." Clearly there is more value in making clutch kicks than non-clutch kicks. I understand that one would have to determine exactly how to define "clutch" and one would have to determine how to weight such kicks. But it seems obvious that if the data were available it would be an improvement. That said, since it isn't available, I agree it's moot (for now).2. I don't agree that kickoff return yards are less valuable because they don't contribute to first downs. They do contribute, in the sense that more kickoff return yards means fewer first downs are needed for the offense to score, and vice versa. If one kicker is significantly better at limiting kickoff return yardage than another, that is clearly valuable.
IMO Grimm was a terrible choice given the quality of the other candidates. Rice and Smith were nobrainers, and I think Randle and Jackson are fine choices.Kind of surprised that both Carter and Brown failed to make the final 10 while Reed did make the final 10.
can someone explain to me why Cortez Kennedy and John Randle are considered hall of fame finalists John Randle is one of the greatest characters in the NFL but he is hardly one of the greatest as a player
Makes me happy about Grimm's chances :X
Randle had 6 1st team All Pro selections and is tied for 6th on the official all time sack list. Even if you include unofficial sack counts, he is probably in the top 10-12 (not sure how many would be ahead of him on the list with unofficial sacks other than Deacon Jones, Gino Marchetti, and Alan Page).You may feel he is overrated, but he was definitely a great player. And he made it in this class, in case you didn't hear the results.can someone explain to me why Cortez Kennedy and John Randle are considered hall of fame finalists John Randle is one of the greatest characters in the NFL but he is hardly one of the greatest as a player
Randle made it but I don't think he deserved it. He was a one dimensional player IMO. A good one but not great. I thought Cortez Kennedy was a much more complete DT than Randle.Randle had 6 1st team All Pro selections and is tied for 6th on the official all time sack list. Even if you include unofficial sack counts, he is probably in the top 10-12 (not sure how many would be ahead of him on the list with unofficial sacks other than Deacon Jones, Gino Marchetti, and Alan Page).You may feel he is overrated, but he was definitely a great player. And he made it in this class, in case you didn't hear the results.can someone explain to me why Cortez Kennedy and John Randle are considered hall of fame finalists John Randle is one of the greatest characters in the NFL but he is hardly one of the greatest as a player
Which is why I said on the first page of this thread back in November that Rice would be the only WR to get in this year.
There is a lot of good discussion on Randle and Kennedy in the PFR blog post I mentioned earlier. IMO the knock on Randle for being one dimensional is overstated. He played a lot more games than Kennedy, and he was better than Kennedy at more than just sacks. Randle's numbers compare favorably to Sapp's, and I think most expect Sapp to be a HOFer.Randle made it but I don't think he deserved it. He was a one dimensional player IMO. A good one but not great. I thought Cortez Kennedy was a much more complete DT than Randle.Randle had 6 1st team All Pro selections and is tied for 6th on the official all time sack list. Even if you include unofficial sack counts, he is probably in the top 10-12 (not sure how many would be ahead of him on the list with unofficial sacks other than Deacon Jones, Gino Marchetti, and Alan Page).You may feel he is overrated, but he was definitely a great player. And he made it in this class, in case you didn't hear the results.can someone explain to me why Cortez Kennedy and John Randle are considered hall of fame finalists John Randle is one of the greatest characters in the NFL but he is hardly one of the greatest as a player
I'm sure the Saints in the Super Bowl had nothing to do with Jackson getting in.
I think Jackson is deserving. I find it troubling that he never made 1st team All Pro, but he did make 2nd team All Pro 5 times.ETA: That said, I think others like Dawson and Sharpe were more deserving. I definitely think Jackson was elevated in this vote due to the Saints being in the Super Bowl.
CONFIRMED: All seven are in.
I think it's great that they think they need to take a look at the increase in passing stats and determine how to look at them. However, that's not something that takes years to do. There's no reason to put a halt on anything.
If they wanna do that it makes sense to keep guys like Reed & Brown out but not Carter & Sharpe.
the only problem with this is that reed played before the pass happy era really started. he played in 4 consec. super bowls. smith is in,kelly is in, thomas is in. sorry but when his peers say he deserves (irvin and especially woodson) guy deserves it.and grimm over dawson is a joke. glad jackson made it. he deserved it, he was just overshadowed by LT.randle was a bit of stretch to me over carter. sharpe to me will get in eventually but i think what it hurting him, is that he really didn't play TE as much as WR acted like a TE.and i'm not that old, but i never heard of floyd little until today.
100% true. And yet King tweeted that the SB participants have nothing to do with it. Has Jackson ever even made the the final 10 before?
The peers always say he deserves it. What is Woodson going to say when they ask if Reed deserves to be in the hall, "nah, I covered that chump like a cheap blanket"?
sacks173.5- Deacon Jones148.5- Alan PageNo numbers on Marchetti due to sloppy record keeping by Colts.I think Randle is tied for 10th on the all-time sack list when including all known unofficial sack numbers. "All known unofficial sack numbers". Jeez, that sounds silly, but I don't know how else to put it. You'd think the league or Elias would go back and make some of those old sack numbers official. I mean, they can't do this for even a few seasons? Surely, they can't go back into the 1940s because the game film and play-by-play sheets don't exist, but you'd think official numbers from the late 1970s and 1980 and 1981 could be determined.Randle had 6 1st team All Pro selections and is tied for 6th on the official all time sack list. Even if you include unofficial sack counts, he is probably in the top 10-12 (not sure how many would be ahead of him on the list with unofficial sacks other than Deacon Jones, Gino Marchetti, and Alan Page).You may feel he is overrated, but he was definitely a great player. And he made it in this class, in case you didn't hear the results.can someone explain to me why Cortez Kennedy and John Randle are considered hall of fame finalists John Randle is one of the greatest characters in the NFL but he is hardly one of the greatest as a player
tied Orenthal for first in the lague with 12 rushing touchdowns in 1973
Agree with this. He was the leader of the Orange Crush, which led Denver to their first super bowl. Little made it today, and even as a Bronco fan I really don't understand why? The biggest argument made in the local media was that he was Denver's first star and the reason the team stayed in Denver and made it to from the AFL to the NFL.
Remind me how many Rings Carter has and how many Irvin has. And don't tell me that Irvin wasn't a big reason for those rings, because he was. Without Irvin, Aikman wouldn't be in the hall.
This was Jackson's first time as one of the 15 modern-era finalists. He was a semifinalist at least once before (2008), that I could find.
great class. all deserving. especially happy for #68, Russ Grimm. I see a lot of criticism here about his election, but I attribute that to two factors: the youth of this board (never heard of Floyd Little?) and the fact that OL play doesn't jump out of the TV set. I don't know that many OL make it on their 1st try. Seems like they usually have to wait. Dawson will have his day, do not worry about that, Squeeler fans
Everyone realizes that this really isn't a vote to answer "who is Hall-worthy and who is not" (at least not at this point in the process). It's simply a vote to determine who will be inducted this year. And there can only be 5 modern-era players a year.The Hall isn't making a statement about whether Sharpe should be in the Hall or not. They are making a statement that says Grimm, Jackson, Randle, Rice and Smith are getting in this year.Arguments about who should be in instead of someone else miss the point. If one of those guys does not have a Hall of Fame resume, lets hear the details. But whether or not some other player has a Hall of Fame resume is irrelevant.
Read this Grimm HOF profile if you want to know why Grimm wasn't a good choice. Here are a couple of excerpts:
especially happy for #68, Russ Grimm. I see a lot of criticism here about his election, but I attribute that to two factors: the youth of this board (never heard of Floyd Little?) and the fact that OL play doesn't jump out of the TV set. I don't know that many OL make it on their 1st try. Seems like they usually have to wait. Dawson will have his day, do not worry about that, Squeeler fans
First off, Grimm doesn't have a HOF worthy resume. See my previous post.Secondly, your logic is flawed IMO. Given that new players become HOF eligible every year, it is important that each class represent the most deserving group from among the finalists. Otherwise, if lesser players are inducted first, it raises the possibility that a more deserving player will slip through the cracks and never get inducted.
but they said he's more deserving than Cris Carter and Tim Brown. That's not quite the same as saying everyone belongs.Andre Reed has been a finalist 4 years in a row and made the cut to the final 10 this year. I never was sure that he'd get in, but I think his chances of getting in eventually look pretty good these days.
