HOF Class of 2010 (1 Viewer)

[Sinrman]

Tim Brown, WR/KR – 1988-2003 Los Angeles/Oakland Raiders, 2004 Tampa Bay Buccaneers

Cris Carter, WR – 1987-89 Philadelphia Eagles, 1990-2001 Minnesota Vikings, 2002 Miami Dolphins

Jerry Rice, WR – 1985-2000 San Francisco 49ers, 2001-04 Oakland Raiders, 2004 Seattle Seahawks

Shannon Sharpe, TE – 1990-99, 2002-03 Denver Broncos, 2000-01 Baltimore Ravens

Emmitt Smith, RB – 1990-2002 Dallas Cowboys, 2003-04 Arizona Cardinals

Paul Tagliabue, Commissioner – 1989-2006 National Football League

I am guessing these guys this time around...

Can't happen. You named six people who were not nominated by the senior committee. A max of five such candidates can be elected.

Well poo... forgot about that. Then I guess strike Tim Brown from my list. He'll wait a year or three...

 

[Horrorshow]

Drew Pearson should have been enshrined ions ago.

I'm not sure that Pearson was any better than Tony Hill.

 

[Horrorshow]

My problem with Branch is that he wasn't miles ahead of most every other WR from his era. Branch's peak was in the mid-'70s, and guys like Harold Carmichael, Drew Pearson, Harold Jackson and the Steelers receivers were all very good.

Nat Moore fan here. He's certainly not a Bronze Bust candidate but I thought I'd add Nat's name to that list of receivers from the seventies. The thing to consider with Moore is how productive he was on a team that threw the football so infrequently before Dan Marino arrived.Miami Passing Attempt Ranks

1974 - 25th

1975 - 26th

1976 - 22nd

1977 - 23rd

1978 - 23rd

1979 - 21st

1980 - 12th

1981 - 14th

1982 - 27th

WR Receptions 1974/1982

444 = Harold Carmichael

436 = Ahmad Rashad

428 = Charlie Joiner

420 = Drew Pearson

413 = Cliff Branch

399 = Steve Largent

339 = Nat Moore

337 = Reggie Rucker

336 = Lynn Swann

 

[zed2283]

It seems as though most poeple are putting Cris Carter over Tim Brown. I don't agree, although I think it's very close. Carter played in more wide-open, pass-heavy offenses than Brown did. Despite that, Brown has more 1400 yard seasons (1 to 0), more 1300 yard seasons (4 to 1), the same number of 1200 yard seasons (4), more 1100 yard seasons (8 to 5) and more 1000 yard seasons (9 to 8). Carter had the edge in TDs, but I think Carter generally played with better supporting casts than Brown.Carter only was named a 1st team All-Pro twice, and also was named a 2nd team All-Pro once and a 2nd-team All-Conference once. Brown was a 1st-team All-Pro twice, a 1st-team All-Conference four additional times, and was a 2nd-team All-Conference pick once as well.Brown and Carter's peaks overlapped; roughly '93 to '00. During that time, Brown played with the following Pro Bowlers:LG Steve Wisniewski (5 PBs)QB Rich Gannon (2)RT Lincoln Kennedy (1)RG Kevin Gogan (1)QB Jeff Hostetler (1)RG Max Montoya (1, and at 37-years old)Carter played with:LG Randall McDaniel (7 PBs)WR Randy Moss (3 PBs)C Jeff Christy (2 PBs)RB Robert Smith (2 PBs)LT Todd Steussie (2)QB Warren Moon (2)C Matt Birk (1)QB Daunte Culpepper (1)RT Korey Stringer (1)QB Daunte Culpepper (1)Tim Brown was also a very good return man -- he has over 4500 career return yards -- and I'd vote for him ahead of Carter.

C.Carter >>>> T.BrownNot even close.

 

[Andy Herron]

It seems as though most poeple are putting Cris Carter over Tim Brown. I don't agree, although I think it's very close. Carter played in more wide-open, pass-heavy offenses than Brown did. Despite that, Brown has more 1400 yard seasons (1 to 0), more 1300 yard seasons (4 to 1), the same number of 1200 yard seasons (4), more 1100 yard seasons (8 to 5) and more 1000 yard seasons (9 to 8). Carter had the edge in TDs, but I think Carter generally played with better supporting casts than Brown.Carter only was named a 1st team All-Pro twice, and also was named a 2nd team All-Pro once and a 2nd-team All-Conference once. Brown was a 1st-team All-Pro twice, a 1st-team All-Conference four additional times, and was a 2nd-team All-Conference pick once as well.Brown and Carter's peaks overlapped; roughly '93 to '00. During that time, Brown played with the following Pro Bowlers:LG Steve Wisniewski (5 PBs)QB Rich Gannon (2)RT Lincoln Kennedy (1)RG Kevin Gogan (1)QB Jeff Hostetler (1)RG Max Montoya (1, and at 37-years old)Carter played with:LG Randall McDaniel (7 PBs)WR Randy Moss (3 PBs)C Jeff Christy (2 PBs)RB Robert Smith (2 PBs)LT Todd Steussie (2)QB Warren Moon (2)C Matt Birk (1)QB Daunte Culpepper (1)RT Korey Stringer (1)QB Daunte Culpepper (1)Tim Brown was also a very good return man -- he has over 4500 career return yards -- and I'd vote for him ahead of Carter.

C.Carter >>>> T.BrownNot even close.

Keep an eye out for Cris's son Duron (6'2", 190) in the next year or two at Ohio State. A freshman this year.They say his hands are every bit as good as his dad's were, and you know he's been well schooled at the position (WR) by his dad.

 

[dgreen]

Aeneas Williams should get in, but he should not be a 1st ballot HOFer. Let some of the other guys get in first.

Either a guy's a HoFer or he isn't. If voters think he's a HoFer, they should vote him into the HoF, regardless of how many times he's appeared before the committee.

Except the NFL limits how many people can enter each year. With so many quality candidates, I think Williams will have to wait.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

Sharpe was more of an H-back than a WR and I think he's probably underrated as a blocker based on some of the comments in this thread. He's a lock to get in at some point.

 

[CrossEyed]

LeBeau should have gone in a long time ago as a player. When you consider what he has done as a defensive coordinator, it's inexcusable if he is not selected.

 

[dgreen]

So, what about Lebeau and Little? I assume Lebeau's coaching isn't supposed to be considered? He's just being nominated as a player, right?

What's the deal with Little? I mean, it's not like I've never heard of him, but his resume doesn't look exceptionally strong. Looking at all RBs who played between 1960 and 1980, he seems to be in a group of the best RBs not currently in the HOF. But, does that make him HOF worthy? Did he never play in a playoff game? It will be interesting to see if Larry Brown gets a nomination next year since I think he compares favorably to Little.

 

[dgreen]

LeBeau should have gone in a long time ago as a player. When you consider what he has done as a defensive coordinator, it's inexcusable if he is not selected.

I don't think they're supposed to take his coordinating into account right now. After he retires, he can be considered as a coordinator. And, at that point, I believe he'll have the uphill battle of being the first coordinator inducted.

 

[SSOG]

Aeneas Williams should get in, but he should not be a 1st ballot HOFer. Let some of the other guys get in first.

Either a guy's a HoFer or he isn't. If voters think he's a HoFer, they should vote him into the HoF, regardless of how many times he's appeared before the committee.

Except the NFL limits how many people can enter each year. With so many quality candidates, I think Williams will have to wait.

I have no problem with any voter who says "This guy deserves induction, but I'm not going to vote for him because this other guy deserves induction even more and we can only induct so many in a given year". I *do* have a problem with any voter who says "this guy deserves induction, but I'm not going to vote for him because this is his first ballot and I don't think he's good enough to earn the 'first ballot hall of famer' distinction".

Sharpe was more of an H-back than a WR and I think he's probably underrated as a blocker based on some of the comments in this thread. He's a lock to get in at some point.

Agreed with this, too. It's not like Shannon Sharpe didn't or couldn't block, either. He was a quality blocker. All of the skill players in Denver were good blockers, which is a big reason why Terrell Davis hit 2,000. Sharpe was as good of a blocker as Rod Smith, and Rod Smith was probably the best blocking WR in the league back then. A lot of the whole "Sharpe can't block" stigma is similar to the "Dwight Freeney can't stop the run" stigma. Sharpe *COULD* block, just like Freeney *COULD* stop the run. They just were never asked to.

So, what about Lebeau and Little? I assume Lebeau's coaching isn't supposed to be considered? He's just being nominated as a player, right?

What's the deal with Little? I mean, it's not like I've never heard of him, but his resume doesn't look exceptionally strong. Looking at all RBs who played between 1960 and 1980, he seems to be in a group of the best RBs not currently in the HOF. But, does that make him HOF worthy? Did he never play in a playoff game? It will be interesting to see if Larry Brown gets a nomination next year since I think he compares favorably to Little.

Technically, voters aren't supposed to consider Lebeau's coaching, but I think that's idiotic, and I suspect that most voters will ignore that (just like most voters probably considered Madden's broadcaster work when electing him as a coach).Floyd Little was nicknamed "The Franchise" because he basically was the entire Denver Broncos franchise back then. He was sort of the Steven Jackson of his day- great production on a putrid offense. Widely respected among his peers, considered one of the best backs of his day. Personally, I think he nomination has a little bit to do with the egregious oversight the hall has had with respect to former Broncos (egregious and indefensible). If that's the case, Gradishar would have been a better choice.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Jerry RiceEmmitt SmithShannon SharpeCris CarterAeneas Williamsare my top 5 from that list

Agree 100% except for Williams...he can wait a little while.

 

[drew726]

Of course this is the best HoF class of all time when you have the best football player of all time going in. Yes I said it, Rice is the best football player of all time. Let the debates begin!

 

[Big Kahuna]

[My problem with Branch is that he wasn't miles ahead of most every other WR from his era. Branch's peak was in the mid-'70s, and guys like Harold Carmichael, Drew Pearson, Harold Jackson and the Steelers receivers were all very good.

Drew Pearson should have been enshrined ions ago. The only player from the "All 70's Team" not to be enshrined.That says it all.

 

[Chase Stuart]

LeBeau should have gone in a long time ago as a player. When you consider what he has done as a defensive coordinator, it's inexcusable if he is not selected.

LeBeau's playing career doesn't merit induction as a player, especially when guys like Jimmy Patton are still not in the Hall. We're talking about a guy who made only three Pro Bowls in the 14-team NFL and was never a 1st team All-Pro. Jimmy Patton was a FIVE time first-team All-Pro. LeBeau has a bunch of interceptions, great, but: 1) he only finished in the top five in INTs three times; and 2) INTs are not a great indicator of DB ability.

 

[Chase Stuart]

So, what about Lebeau and Little? I assume Lebeau's coaching isn't supposed to be considered? He's just being nominated as a player, right?

What's the deal with Little? I mean, it's not like I've never heard of him, but his resume doesn't look exceptionally strong. Looking at all RBs who played between 1960 and 1980, he seems to be in a group of the best RBs not currently in the HOF. But, does that make him HOF worthy? Did he never play in a playoff game? It will be interesting to see if Larry Brown gets a nomination next year since I think he compares favorably to Little.

Terrell Davis, Lydell Mitchell, Chuck Foreman, Ottis Anderson, William Andrews, Ricky Watters, Gerald Riggs, Larry Brown, Lawrence McCutcheon and others would be on my RB list that are on the border; and I think nearly all of them have more favorable cases than Little.The Senior candidates this year were bad. I don't know if Gradishar was eligible for election as a senior this year or next, but if the Hall really wanted an old Bronco, he's your guy.

 

[Chase Stuart]

[My problem with Branch is that he wasn't miles ahead of most every other WR from his era. Branch's peak was in the mid-'70s, and guys like Harold Carmichael, Drew Pearson, Harold Jackson and the Steelers receivers were all very good.

Drew Pearson should have been enshrined ions ago. The only player from the "All 70's Team" not to be enshrined.That says it all.

Not that this will make Cowboys fans feels any better, but Cliff Harris also isn't in the HOF.

 

[Native]

So, what about Lebeau and Little? I assume Lebeau's coaching isn't supposed to be considered? He's just being nominated as a player, right?

What's the deal with Little? I mean, it's not like I've never heard of him, but his resume doesn't look exceptionally strong. Looking at all RBs who played between 1960 and 1980, he seems to be in a group of the best RBs not currently in the HOF. But, does that make him HOF worthy? Did he never play in a playoff game? It will be interesting to see if Larry Brown gets a nomination next year since I think he compares favorably to Little.

Terrell Davis, Lydell Mitchell, Chuck Foreman, Ottis Anderson, William Andrews, Ricky Watters, Gerald Riggs, Larry Brown, Lawrence McCutcheon and others would be on my RB list that are on the border; and I think nearly all of them have more favorable cases than Little.The Senior candidates this year were bad. I don't know if Gradishar was eligible for election as a senior this year or next, but if the Hall really wanted an old Bronco, he's your guy.

I dont know. I like both of those selections.

 

[Chase Stuart]

So, what about Lebeau and Little? I assume Lebeau's coaching isn't supposed to be considered? He's just being nominated as a player, right?

What's the deal with Little? I mean, it's not like I've never heard of him, but his resume doesn't look exceptionally strong. Looking at all RBs who played between 1960 and 1980, he seems to be in a group of the best RBs not currently in the HOF. But, does that make him HOF worthy? Did he never play in a playoff game? It will be interesting to see if Larry Brown gets a nomination next year since I think he compares favorably to Little.

Terrell Davis, Lydell Mitchell, Chuck Foreman, Ottis Anderson, William Andrews, Ricky Watters, Gerald Riggs, Larry Brown, Lawrence McCutcheon and others would be on my RB list that are on the border; and I think nearly all of them have more favorable cases than Little.The Senior candidates this year were bad. I don't know if Gradishar was eligible for election as a senior this year or next, but if the Hall really wanted an old Bronco, he's your guy.

I dont know. I like both of those selections.

I guess the question is, "compared to what." Neither would be in my top 10 of most deserving senior candidates, so considering that we can only add 2 per year, I think they were very poor choices.

 

[Native]

So, what about Lebeau and Little? I assume Lebeau's coaching isn't supposed to be considered? He's just being nominated as a player, right?

What's the deal with Little? I mean, it's not like I've never heard of him, but his resume doesn't look exceptionally strong. Looking at all RBs who played between 1960 and 1980, he seems to be in a group of the best RBs not currently in the HOF. But, does that make him HOF worthy? Did he never play in a playoff game? It will be interesting to see if Larry Brown gets a nomination next year since I think he compares favorably to Little.

Terrell Davis, Lydell Mitchell, Chuck Foreman, Ottis Anderson, William Andrews, Ricky Watters, Gerald Riggs, Larry Brown, Lawrence McCutcheon and others would be on my RB list that are on the border; and I think nearly all of them have more favorable cases than Little.The Senior candidates this year were bad. I don't know if Gradishar was eligible for election as a senior this year or next, but if the Hall really wanted an old Bronco, he's your guy.

I dont know. I like both of those selections.

I guess the question is, "compared to what." Neither would be in my top 10 of most deserving senior candidates, so considering that we can only add 2 per year, I think they were very poor choices.

I guess Im just happy they didnt pick some wingback/punter from the 1920's when there were 6 teams in the league and 8 games per season

 

[Native]

Guys Id like to see make it from the old timers list:

Lemar Parrish, Bengals

Ken Riley, Bengals

Randy Gradishar, LB, Broncos

Bob Kuchenburg, OG Dolphins

Tommy Nobis, Falcons

Kenny Easley, Seahawks

 

[Tau837]

Technically, voters aren't supposed to consider Lebeau's coaching, but I think that's idiotic, and I suspect that most voters will ignore that (just like most voters probably considered Madden's broadcaster work when electing him as a coach).

But Madden didn't need consideration of his broadcasting to get in. Lebeau would need favorable consideration of his coaching career to get him in IMO... but then you have to balance his terrible stint as a head coach against his great work as a coordinator... I don't think he deserves to make it whether or not his coaching is considered.

 

[SSOG]

Technically, voters aren't supposed to consider Lebeau's coaching, but I think that's idiotic, and I suspect that most voters will ignore that (just like most voters probably considered Madden's broadcaster work when electing him as a coach).

But Madden didn't need consideration of his broadcasting to get in. Lebeau would need favorable consideration of his coaching career to get him in IMO... but then you have to balance his terrible stint as a head coach against his great work as a coordinator... I don't think he deserves to make it whether or not his coaching is considered.

I think Madden DEFINITELY needed consideration of his broadcasting to get in. Yes, he had a great winning percentage, but... 103 career wins, 1 career SB championship? That's not HoF material. If you look strictly at coaching record, there's very little difference between John Madden (10 years, 10.3 wins a year, 1 championship) and Blanton Collier (8 years, 9.5 wins a year, 1 championship). Heck, their careers even overlapped.As for LeBeau... I don't fault him much for his coaching record. He did a 3-year stint with one of the worst franchises in the league. It didn't work out, but so what? A guy doesn't have to be uber-successful at every little thing that he did to be a hall of famer. LBs have made the hall despite being poor in pass coverage. WRs have made the hall despite poor blocking. Deion Sanders is a lock for the hall despite freely admitting that he doesn't tackle. If a guy was a very, very good player (not quite HoF, but not too far off) *AND* arguably the best coordinator of the past 30 years, that combination is enough to be HoF worthy, in my book.

 

[Happy Ragnarok]

Only going to post my five, because I don't think I've seen this specific list yet, but to me...

Rice

Emmitt

Carter

Sharpe

Dawson

Are all easily a cut above their competition here.

I'd love to know if anyone had more consecutive AP selections than DD without getting in, and getting in quick. With no foreknowledge, I'd guess he's #1 on that list, and #2 isn't close...but like I say, I'd like to know.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Only going to post my five, because I don't think I've seen this specific list yet, but to me...RiceEmmittCarterSharpeDawsonAre all easily a cut above their competition here.I'd love to know if anyone had more consecutive AP selections than DD without getting in, and getting in quick. With no foreknowledge, I'd guess he's #1 on that list, and #2 isn't close...but like I say, I'd like to know.

John Randle is also at six, and was not selected last year in his first year of eligibility.The Chiefs' Jim Tyrer is at six, although he was an AFLer and he has nonfootball related reasonsLarry Grantham is at five, AFLChuck Howley is at five, although NFL of the '60s, but was also SB MVPJimmy Patton is at fiveThat's all I see.

 

[Tau837]

I think Madden DEFINITELY needed consideration of his broadcasting to get in. Yes, he had a great winning percentage, but... 103 career wins, 1 career SB championship? That's not HoF material. If you look strictly at coaching record, there's very little difference between John Madden (10 years, 10.3 wins a year, 1 championship) and Blanton Collier (8 years, 9.5 wins a year, 1 championship). Heck, their careers even overlapped.

Madden has the best winning percentage ever for coaches with at least 100 victories. Every one of his teams had a winning record. In 10 seasons, his teams won 7 division titles and made the playoffs 8 times. He has a winning postseason record.As for comparing him to Blanton Collier, it doesn't seem close. Collier has a losing postseason record, fewer wins, a worse winning percentage, and made the playoffs less often.

As for LeBeau... I don't fault him much for his coaching record. He did a 3-year stint with one of the worst franchises in the league. It didn't work out, but so what? A guy doesn't have to be uber-successful at every little thing that he did to be a hall of famer. LBs have made the hall despite being poor in pass coverage. WRs have made the hall despite poor blocking. Deion Sanders is a lock for the hall despite freely admitting that he doesn't tackle. If a guy was a very, very good player (not quite HoF, but not too far off) *AND* arguably the best coordinator of the past 30 years, that combination is enough to be HoF worthy, in my book.

1. His head coaching record is part of his coaching record. No one forced him to take the job with one of the worst franchises in the league. He was 12-33. :X2. I'm not at all certain that he is the best coordinator of the past 30 years. The problem is that typically great coordinators go on to become head coaches... 3. It is a lesser coaching role. For example, it would be hard to justify putting Lebeau in over Dan Reeves or Marty Schottenheimer.

 

[Chase Stuart]

I think Madden DEFINITELY needed consideration of his broadcasting to get in. Yes, he had a great winning percentage, but... 103 career wins, 1 career SB championship? That's not HoF material. If you look strictly at coaching record, there's very little difference between John Madden (10 years, 10.3 wins a year, 1 championship) and Blanton Collier (8 years, 9.5 wins a year, 1 championship). Heck, their careers even overlapped.

Madden has the best winning percentage ever for coaches with at least 100 victories. Every one of his teams had a winning record. In 10 seasons, his teams won 7 division titles and made the playoffs 8 times. He has a winning postseason record.As for comparing him to Blanton Collier, it doesn't seem close. Collier has a losing postseason record, fewer wins, a worse winning percentage, and made the playoffs less often.

:X I graded coaching records, not based on just wins, or winning percentage, or Super Bowls, but a combination of all three.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=2331

I've got Madden's coaching record as the 13th most impressive of all-time. Collier, while very good, comes in at #32. Madden's definitely a HOF coach without anything else.

 

[SSOG]

I think Madden DEFINITELY needed consideration of his broadcasting to get in. Yes, he had a great winning percentage, but... 103 career wins, 1 career SB championship? That's not HoF material. If you look strictly at coaching record, there's very little difference between John Madden (10 years, 10.3 wins a year, 1 championship) and Blanton Collier (8 years, 9.5 wins a year, 1 championship). Heck, their careers even overlapped.

Madden has the best winning percentage ever for coaches with at least 100 victories. Every one of his teams had a winning record. In 10 seasons, his teams won 7 division titles and made the playoffs 8 times. He has a winning postseason record.As for comparing him to Blanton Collier, it doesn't seem close. Collier has a losing postseason record, fewer wins, a worse winning percentage, and made the playoffs less often.

As for LeBeau... I don't fault him much for his coaching record. He did a 3-year stint with one of the worst franchises in the league. It didn't work out, but so what? A guy doesn't have to be uber-successful at every little thing that he did to be a hall of famer. LBs have made the hall despite being poor in pass coverage. WRs have made the hall despite poor blocking. Deion Sanders is a lock for the hall despite freely admitting that he doesn't tackle. If a guy was a very, very good player (not quite HoF, but not too far off) *AND* arguably the best coordinator of the past 30 years, that combination is enough to be HoF worthy, in my book.

1. His head coaching record is part of his coaching record. No one forced him to take the job with one of the worst franchises in the league. He was 12-33. :2. I'm not at all certain that he is the best coordinator of the past 30 years. The problem is that typically great coordinators go on to become head coaches... 3. It is a lesser coaching role. For example, it would be hard to justify putting Lebeau in over Dan Reeves or Marty Schottenheimer.

My point with Madden is that he only coached for 10 years. I don't think he had enough longevity strictly as a coach to merit HoF induction... and even if he did, he certainly didn't have a strong enough resume to merit induction as a SENIORS NOMINEE (which is a significantly higher standard). If he'd done what he did over a 15 or 20 year span, it'd be different, but 10 seasons and 1 SB isn't enough of a resume in my book. 10 seasons, 1 SB, 1 best-selling video game franchise, and 1 distinguished broadcasting career? Yeah, that's HoF-worthy.As for Lebeau... he had a terrible 3-season stint as a head coach. Is there no one in the HoF who has had a terrible 3-season stretch in any capacity? I'm not saying you should ignore that, I'm just saying that you shouldn't hold LeBeau to a higher standard than everyone else. Why should it matter that he wasn't universally successful at absolutely everything he did? He was a fantastic player and a historically great coordinator. That's enough.

 

[SSOG]

I think Madden DEFINITELY needed consideration of his broadcasting to get in. Yes, he had a great winning percentage, but... 103 career wins, 1 career SB championship? That's not HoF material. If you look strictly at coaching record, there's very little difference between John Madden (10 years, 10.3 wins a year, 1 championship) and Blanton Collier (8 years, 9.5 wins a year, 1 championship). Heck, their careers even overlapped.

Madden has the best winning percentage ever for coaches with at least 100 victories. Every one of his teams had a winning record. In 10 seasons, his teams won 7 division titles and made the playoffs 8 times. He has a winning postseason record.As for comparing him to Blanton Collier, it doesn't seem close. Collier has a losing postseason record, fewer wins, a worse winning percentage, and made the playoffs less often.

I graded coaching records, not based on just wins, or winning percentage, or Super Bowls, but a combination of all three.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=2331

I've got Madden's coaching record as the 13th most impressive of all-time. Collier, while very good, comes in at #32. Madden's definitely a HOF coach without anything else.

George Seifert is 14th on your list. Is he HoF-caliber, too?

 

[Chase Stuart]

I think Madden DEFINITELY needed consideration of his broadcasting to get in. Yes, he had a great winning percentage, but... 103 career wins, 1 career SB championship? That's not HoF material. If you look strictly at coaching record, there's very little difference between John Madden (10 years, 10.3 wins a year, 1 championship) and Blanton Collier (8 years, 9.5 wins a year, 1 championship). Heck, their careers even overlapped.

Madden has the best winning percentage ever for coaches with at least 100 victories. Every one of his teams had a winning record. In 10 seasons, his teams won 7 division titles and made the playoffs 8 times. He has a winning postseason record.As for comparing him to Blanton Collier, it doesn't seem close. Collier has a losing postseason record, fewer wins, a worse winning percentage, and made the playoffs less often.

I graded coaching records, not based on just wins, or winning percentage, or Super Bowls, but a combination of all three.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=2331

I've got Madden's coaching record as the 13th most impressive of all-time. Collier, while very good, comes in at #32. Madden's definitely a HOF coach without anything else.

George Seifert is 14th on your list. Is he HoF-caliber, too?

George Seifert's record is HOF-caliber, yes. I think that's pretty obvious.Whether or not George Seifert is HOF-worthy would depend on how much credit you want to give Seifert for his team's success. My method was purely grading team success.

 

[Trig2U]

Ray Guy HAS to be in soon!!

Yeah, how is Ray Guy NOT in the Hall of Fame already? Sure he was a punter... but (A) that is a position in the NFL and (B) we're talking about the greatest at that position who ever played. He's named to every conceivable "All-time" NFL team, and for good reason.Maybe not everyone knows this, but the first amazing thing about Guy is that he was a 1st Round draft pick. He made the Pro Bowl seven times, and played in 207 consecutive games. Although he was famous for hanging incredibly long punts up in the air (and is credited with inspiring the term "hang time"), he also averaged 42.4 yards per punt for his career. One season (1984-'85) he placed 57 punts inside the 20 yard line! Etc; etc. Jan Stenerud has a bust in Canton, so there's absolutely no excuse for Ray Guy not to be there too.

 

[Trig2U]

Picking the maximum allowed 7:

* Tier 1

Jerry Rice

* Tier 2

Emmitt Smith

John Randle

Cris Carter

* Tier 3

Ray Guy

Aeneas Williams

Shannon Sharpe

* Tier 4

A bunch more real good candidates who'll just have to wait...

 

[SSOG]

George Seifert's record is HOF-caliber, yes. I think that's pretty obvious.

Whether or not George Seifert is HOF-worthy would depend on how much credit you want to give Seifert for his team's success. My method was purely grading team success.

I don't think it's obvious at all. Even if we accept the fact that Seifert's record is the 14th best of any head coach's in NFL history (and I don't buy it- I think your rating system should have some sort of year N+1 measurement that rewards coaches for turning around bad teams and penalizes coaches who simply inherited great teams in the first place), we'd still need to accept the premise that the 14th best head coach is HoF caliber without any sort of resume stuffers such as "innovation", "multiple championships", or "impact on the game". I personally don't buy that premise.There are currently 16 coaches who made the HoF primarily based on their accomplishments as a head coach since 1950. Of those 16, only two coached for 10 years or fewer- John Madden (103 wins, 1 SB) and Bill Walsh (92 wins, 3 SBs, and I think he also had something to do with some sort of offense or something like that). Four other guys coached for 15 or fewer years- Joe Gibbs (3 SB championships with 3 different starting QBs), Marv Levy (4 straight SB appearances), Vince Lombardi (5 championships, and didn't he have some sort of trophy named after him?), and George Allen. Actually, George Allen is probably the only favorable comparison for Madden, since he has a comparable winning% and tenure. Madden has the SB win, but Allen has the distinction of never posting a losing season despite turning around two positively putrid franchises. Either way, a very strong case could be made that John Madden is the least deserving head coach in the Hall of Fame, and even if you think he merits inclusion based strictly on his accomplishments as a coach (I don't), you have to admit that he's nowhere near meeting the higher standard to which all Seniors candidates are held based strictly on his coaching accomplishments.

Ray Guy HAS to be in soon!!

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...p;qpid=11187507Yeah, how is Ray Guy NOT in the Hall of Fame already? Sure he was a punter... but (A) that is a position in the NFL and (B) we're talking about the greatest at that position who ever played. He's named to every conceivable "All-time" NFL team, and for good reason

(A) Long Snapper is a position in the NFL, too, and (B) What? When did the topic of the conversation change to Shane Lechler? Oh, wait, you meant Ray Guy? Despite the hype, there are plenty of people who'll argue Guy wasn't even top 5, let alone the best of all time.

 

[Tau837]

There are currently 16 coaches who made the HoF primarily based on their accomplishments as a head coach since 1950. Of those 16, only two coached for 10 years or fewer- John Madden (103 wins, 1 SB) and Bill Walsh (92 wins, 3 SBs, and I think he also had something to do with some sort of offense or something like that). Four other guys coached for 15 or fewer years- Joe Gibbs (3 SB championships with 3 different starting QBs), Marv Levy (4 straight SB appearances), Vince Lombardi (5 championships, and didn't he have some sort of trophy named after him?), and George Allen. Actually, George Allen is probably the only favorable comparison for Madden, since he has a comparable winning% and tenure. Madden has the SB win, but Allen has the distinction of never posting a losing season despite turning around two positively putrid franchises. Either way, a very strong case could be made that John Madden is the least deserving head coach in the Hall of Fame, and even if you think he merits inclusion based strictly on his accomplishments as a coach (I don't), you have to admit that he's nowhere near meeting the higher standard to which all Seniors candidates are held based strictly on his coaching accomplishments.

Madden's resume is clearly more compelling than George Allen.1. I'm not sure it's fair to call Allen's winning percentage (.712) comparable to Madden's (.759). Still a pretty big gap there.2. Allen's teams won their division 5 of 12 times, compared to Madden's 7 of 10.3. Allen only made the playoffs 7 out of 12 times, compared to Madden's 8 of 10.4. Allen has a 2-7 postseason record, not at all comparable to Madden's 9-7 record. 5. Madden won a Super Bowl. Allen didn't.The only thing really in Allen's favor is your point that he produced good results for two franchises, and they weren't great when he took them over. Though I think calling the Redskins "putrid" is an overstatement... they were 13-13-2 over the two seasons prior to Allen. Regardless, Madden did an outstanding job, and he did so over a 10 year period, which shows that he wasn't just the beneficiary of taking over a great team.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Ray Guy HAS to be in soon!!

Yeah, how is Ray Guy NOT in the Hall of Fame already? Sure he was a punter... but (A) that is a position in the NFL and (B) we're talking about the greatest at that position who ever played. He's named to every conceivable "All-time" NFL team, and for good reason.Maybe not everyone knows this, but the first amazing thing about Guy is that he was a 1st Round draft pick. He made the Pro Bowl seven times, and played in 207 consecutive games. Although he was famous for hanging incredibly long punts up in the air (and is credited with inspiring the term "hang time"), he also averaged 42.4 yards per punt for his career. One season (1984-'85) he placed 57 punts inside the 20 yard line! Etc; etc. Jan Stenerud has a bust in Canton, so there's absolutely no excuse for Ray Guy not to be there too.

Who is the 2nd greatest punter of all-time?

 

[Idiot Boxer]

Rough year for the repeaters, as 2 of the first-timers (Smith and Rice) are no-brainer lead-pipe locks. I think Aeneas gets in on the first ballot, too. Tim Brown has a great chance, but I don't even pretend to guess what the voters are going to do with respect to WRs anymore. Factor in the fact that Sharpe should have gotten in LAST YEAR, and it's going to be a really, really rough battle to make the hall this year.I'm going to be pissed if the committee elects any fewer than the maximum 7 possible.

Well, I hope they select no more than 5. They can't select any more than five of the semifinalists; they can only go to six or seven if they take LeBeau and/or Little.Yes, there are only three open slots this year. You can cross off the five non-skill position players, IMO. Modell isn't going to make it; tough to take Tags in a class this good. Coryell's resume isn't strong for a head coach, even if his innovations may make him HOF worthy. Students of the game should know and respect Coryell, but there's no room for a head coach with a 3-6 playoff record as head coach and only seven winning seasons. His resume strictly as a HC just isn't there. Guy/Tasker, while they'll have their supporters, are joke candidates IMO.That leaves 18 guys after Rice/Emmitt. I don't think Grimm is a good candidate - his career wasn't long enough and he didn't have enough big years to get in; to be a guard in the HOF, you need a spotless resume, and Grimm doesn't have that. Being great from '83 to '86 is not enough. I feel a little more sympathetic to Lester Hayes, but he suffers from the same argument and he'd be the next guy off my list.Of the remaining 16, any three of them would be okay with me. The HOF is the highest possible achievement a player can reach, so you're necessarily going to be bad mouthing outstanding players like Grimm and Hayes. You've got no choice when you're taking only three guys.None of the remaining three are no brainers. I'd probably put Randle and Dawson at the top of my list. After that, I can see good arguments for Brown, TD, Aeneas Williams, Carter, Rickey Jackson and Doleman. I'd pronanly go with TD, because I think he was one of the GOAT at his peak. You could say he suffers from the same arguments that I made to strike Hayes and Grimm, but I think the skill positions are different than the rest; as a skill position player, you can get in off a short peak of greatness and a terrific post-season. As a non-skill position player, you need longevity. I'd put TD in based on his dominant seasons and his dominant post-season play. If not TD, I'd probably go Tim Brown or Aeneas Williams. But it's very, very tough. I really could see arguments for any of the guys on the list.

You discount Grimm because his career wasn't long enough, but then can "see good arguments for TD?"TD is the last person on this list I'd put in.

 

[Chase Stuart]

George Seifert's record is HOF-caliber, yes. I think that's pretty obvious.Whether or not George Seifert is HOF-worthy would depend on how much credit you want to give Seifert for his team's success. My method was purely grading team success.

I don't think it's obvious at all. Even if we accept the fact that Seifert's record is the 14th best of any head coach's in NFL history (and I don't buy it- I think your rating system should have some sort of year N+1 measurement that rewards coaches for turning around bad teams and penalizes coaches who simply inherited great teams in the first place), we'd still need to accept the premise that the 14th best head coach is HoF caliber without any sort of resume stuffers such as "innovation", "multiple championships", or "impact on the game". I personally don't buy that premise.

For starters, team success is independent of how the team was the prior year. If you're 14-2, you don't have more wins if you were 6-10 last year or if you were 14-2 last year. 14-2 is 14-2; that's why I'm saying I'm grading coaching records. 14-2 is better than 10-6 which is better than 5-11. It's an objective measure of coaching records. I'm not using objective as a synonym for better the way some people do; subjectivity is needed in grading coaches, but not in grading coaching records.FWIW, I don't think something like innovation is that important for a HC. If you win, I don't care if it's pretty or innovative or stylish. The goal is to win, not to look good. It's pretty hard to win without being innovative, though. Championships are explicitly built into my grading system.Impact on the game seems sort of fluffy to me. I can't think of a coach who got in based on his impact on the game, rather than his record. Tom Flores was the first minority coach in the modern era and won two SBs. Jimmy Johnson led a dynasty, has a good coaching record, is credited with having a huge impact on the draft, yet isn't in, either. I think for the most part, coaches get in for how good they were at coaching. The other stuff just tends to come along with good coaching.

 

[Chase Stuart]

You discount Grimm because his career wasn't long enough, but then can "see good arguments for TD?"TD is the last person on this list I'd put in.

RBs can have short careers. Offensive linemen can't. No one is saying Tony Boselli (5 PB, 3 1AP) should get in and he's got arguably a better resume than Grimm (4/3).I'd put TD in for the same reason I'd put Terry Bradshaw and Troy Aikman in my HOF.

 

[Idiot Boxer]

You discount Grimm because his career wasn't long enough, but then can "see good arguments for TD?"TD is the last person on this list I'd put in.

RBs can have short careers. Offensive linemen can't. No one is saying Tony Boselli (5 PB, 3 1AP) should get in and he's got arguably a better resume than Grimm (4/3).I'd put TD in for the same reason I'd put Terry Bradshaw and Troy Aikman in my HOF.

Just curious, would you put Curtis Martin, Tiki Barber and Jerome Bettis in? I'd put all three of these in before TD...and I'm not sure all 3 should be in.

 

[Chase Stuart]

You discount Grimm because his career wasn't long enough, but then can "see good arguments for TD?"TD is the last person on this list I'd put in.

RBs can have short careers. Offensive linemen can't. No one is saying Tony Boselli (5 PB, 3 1AP) should get in and he's got arguably a better resume than Grimm (4/3).I'd put TD in for the same reason I'd put Terry Bradshaw and Troy Aikman in my HOF.

Just curious, would you put Curtis Martin, Tiki Barber and Jerome Bettis in? I'd put all three of these in before TD...and I'm not sure all 3 should be in.

Martin, yes. I admit to being biased with Martin, but I think he's a very deserving HOF. He's also one of my favorite players ever.I've long said that I view Alexander/Barber/James on the same tier. I think at least one but not all three will get in, and I have no idea how that will play out. After giving it a lot of thought, I decided to put Tiki as #1 on my list there. So yes, I think Tiki should go in, although I realize the numbers game means he may have to wait awhile.Bettis is close, but I'd err on the side of not putting him in. I think he's about comparable to the weakest RBs currently in the HOF, but my general benchmark is a bit higher than that. Certainly not a disgrace if he makes it, but he's not someone I'd go out of my way to push in. I'd probably put TD ahead of everyone, but definitely ahead of Barber and Bettis.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

No one ever wants to talk about Tasker.

 

[Idiot Boxer]

No one ever wants to talk about Tasker.

I'd put Tasker in before Terrell Davis.

 

[Idiot Boxer]

EDIT:

Chart was unreadable.

Find it here http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play...iTe00.htm?redir

Seven year career, of which two were phenomenal and one was very good. The four others lacked any real significance whatsoever.

Just not enough here.

 

[MarshallRob]

Ray Guy HAS to be in soon!!

Yeah, how is Ray Guy NOT in the Hall of Fame already? Sure he was a punter... but (A) that is a position in the NFL and (B) we're talking about the greatest at that position who ever played. He's named to every conceivable "All-time" NFL team, and for good reason.Maybe not everyone knows this, but the first amazing thing about Guy is that he was a 1st Round draft pick. He made the Pro Bowl seven times, and played in 207 consecutive games. Although he was famous for hanging incredibly long punts up in the air (and is credited with inspiring the term "hang time"), he also averaged 42.4 yards per punt for his career. One season (1984-'85) he placed 57 punts inside the 20 yard line! Etc; etc.

Jan Stenerud has a bust in Canton, so there's absolutely no excuse for Ray Guy not to be there too.

Guy did not place 57 punts inside the 20-yard line in one season. He did do that over the course of two seasons. The NFL single season record is 42 by Andy Lee. Jeff Feagles has played in 345 consecutive games.

Guy's 42.4 yards per punt currently places him 62nd on the all-time list.

 

[dutch]

No one ever wants to talk about Tasker.

I'd put Tasker in before Terrell Davis.

Steve Tasker can buy a ticket just like the rest of us because there is no compelling justification to vote him into the hof. And yes, I did see him play.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

No one ever wants to talk about Tasker.

I'd put Tasker in before Terrell Davis.

 

[CalBear]

No one ever wants to talk about Tasker.

I'd put Tasker in before Terrell Davis.

This is completely ridiculous. Tasker touched the ball a grand total of 147 times in his 12-year career, for a grand total of 9 TDs. He never had a punt or kick return TD. He was never named an All-Pro. TD's career was short, but he still had an order of magnitude more touches and yards than Tasker. Tasker should be in, why? For being good at kickoff coverage? Please. Like the dweebs arguing for Ray Guy, Tasker supporters are is just taking a position with no attempt to reality-check it.

 

[the UFFRM]

Dermontii Dawson anyone? This guy should get in for sure IMO. I wish it wasn't always so skill player biased. Bettis should not accept his own nomination unless he can follow DD just like he did on the field.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

No one ever wants to talk about Tasker.

I'd put Tasker in before Terrell Davis.

This is completely ridiculous. Tasker touched the ball a grand total of 147 times in his 12-year career, for a grand total of 9 TDs. He never had a punt or kick return TD. He was never named an All-Pro. TD's career was short, but he still had an order of magnitude more touches and yards than Tasker. Tasker should be in, why? For being good at kickoff coverage? Please. Like the dweebs arguing for Ray Guy, Tasker supporters are is just taking a position with no attempt to reality-check it.

Well, like relievers in baseball, I think some of us realize that special teams are a part of the game and that eventually some of the very best special teams players will get inducted in the HOF. Who was the Special Teams All-Pro the years that Tasker played? Or did they just have a Pro Bowl Special Teams designation and not one on the All Pro teams?

 

[The_Man]

The maximum number of first-time eligible players who made it has been three. That has happened seven times; the last time was 2006, when Troy Aikman, Warren Moon and Reggie White went in on the first ballot.

The Class of 2012 could be pretty good with first-timers: Jon Ogden, Larry Allen, Warren Sapp, maybe Michael Strahan. That class could also have included Favre and Seau, but they've both unretired twice since the end of the 2007 season. Wonder if there have ever been two first-ballott O Lineman go in the same year.