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Hopefulness - A way to live (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Joe Bryant
- Start date
bigbottom
Footballguy
For sure it's in same line of thought there. Definitely agree.
Hawks64
Footballguy
And it's often challenging to do so, each day is a step on the journey.
bigbottom
Footballguy
The devastation that Nick references in your linked video is likely the death of his 15 year old son. Finding hope in the face of devastation is in many ways precisely the hope that underpins Chance for Hope. It’s like he’s speaking the very words that exist in my soul and carry me through each day.
For those reading the thread, it’s worth watching the whole video that Joe linked.
dgreen
Footballguy
Thanks for sharing this. If you don't mind, I have a question. I am coming at this discussion as someone with so little tragedy in my life, so I admittedly struggle to really connect with the perspectives of those who have truly suffered.
When you talk about having hope during that time in your life, what is it that your hope was looking forward to? Was it primarily that you maintained hope that Chance would be healed? Or was it primarily a hope that things would be ok even if the worst happened to Chance? Or a combination of the two or sometime entirely different?
I remember a while back thinking about how we mostly use the word "hope" as it relates to low-probability events. We "hope" something that is unlikely to happen will happen, whether that's something as trivial as the Commanders winning the Super Bowl this year or as significant as the healing of a child facing low odds. Rarely do I hear someone talk about hope in something that they are actually confident about. So, for a long time, I didn't have a great view on the concept of hope because I equated it with being unrealistic. I guess I can see value in even unrealistic hope to get through a time of crisis, but I think I would then worry about a loss of hope when the desired outcome doesn't happen. In your experience, is the value of hope in hoping to beat those odds or does the value of hope come from hoping in some other aspect of the situation? Or, again, is something completely different going on that I'm maybe not connecting with because of my life experience?
I hope my question makes sense.
jamny
Footballguy
Good topic!
While there is obviously nothing inherently wrong with hope, I tend to feel it can sometimes cloud your judgment and prevent you from facing reality today. You can find a lump somewhere and hope it goes away. Hope prevents you from discussing it with your spouse and starting the necessary steps immediately. Living in the now forces you to take the steps necessary, while they are still small. Every problem in the world starts off small and should be addressed asap, instead of just hoping it gets better or goes away. You and your spouse are not getting along, hopefully this new puppy will bring us closer together. That’s an irrational decision. Instead, have the tough conversations and whatever happens, happens. I prefer staying positive as opposed to hope. It lets you live for today and make the best of each moment. I know that both can be possible.
My wife regularly hopes this doesn’t happen or that doesn’t happen. I’m just like “worry about it if or when it happens” Life is too short.
While there is obviously nothing inherently wrong with hope, I tend to feel it can sometimes cloud your judgment and prevent you from facing reality today. You can find a lump somewhere and hope it goes away. Hope prevents you from discussing it with your spouse and starting the necessary steps immediately. Living in the now forces you to take the steps necessary, while they are still small. Every problem in the world starts off small and should be addressed asap, instead of just hoping it gets better or goes away. You and your spouse are not getting along, hopefully this new puppy will bring us closer together. That’s an irrational decision. Instead, have the tough conversations and whatever happens, happens. I prefer staying positive as opposed to hope. It lets you live for today and make the best of each moment. I know that both can be possible.
My wife regularly hopes this doesn’t happen or that doesn’t happen. I’m just like “worry about it if or when it happens” Life is too short.
Snoopy
Footballguy
I have been to hell and back several times. With that, I do live with this philosophy as I don't want others to experience what I have. With that I have very little hope for myself.
bigbottom
Footballguy
These are both incredibly thoughtful posts with inquiries that I have spent a lot of time on. I want to take the time necessary to respond but am tied up for a bit. In the meantime, I wanted to thank you for raising these questions which will make for a great discussion!
jamny
Footballguy
Thanks! I kind of hesitated to post it and look forward to your thoughts.
rockaction
Footballguy
Thanks for the thread, Joe. Nick Cave is a great writer. I’ve been really moved by some of his answers to questions that he receives from fans and readers. An interesting topic coming from an interesting man. When I find the time I’ll look at the entire video.
Ah, so it was a reader question. He gives great answers and his Q&A process can function as a wonderful antidote to the awfulness of the world we see at times.
Thanks for posting.
Ah, so it was a reader question. He gives great answers and his Q&A process can function as a wonderful antidote to the awfulness of the world we see at times.
Thanks for posting.
Thanks. Is that the Red Hand Files newsletter?
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
Cave has an eagerly awaited new record coming out later this month with his band the Bad Seeds. Its the first studio album he's released with the band since Ghosteen in 2019, which was inspired by the death of his son Arthur and explores loss as well as hopefulness. His solo tour last year was incredible - out of character for him but it worked. Its interesting to see the changes in his character since the early days. Thanks for posting this.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Yes, this. It's much like the difference between healthy skepticism and cynicism.
Ridgeback
Footballguy
Yes, it is. It's very much worth to subscribe (it's free). Nick is an amazing writer, regardless if you like his music or not. He's one of my favorites for a number of reasons. His book, Faith, Hope, and Carnage is phenomenal and very much worth the read.
rockaction
Footballguy
No problem. It’s his blog/media center. I don’t know how it works exactly, but I know there are pages and pages of him answering deep questions with thoughtful answers. They’re not high-handed or too abstruse. They’re pretty solid if you can handle the optimism within them. I liked what I read back when I did. Looks like you can subscribe and all that stuff, but there’s plenty to get one started by going to theredhandfiles.com
Regardless, it’s worth checking out. Some of the questions are about loss and death; others are about politics and the contemporary divisions we face; still another is simply a playlist of his songs as ranked by his readers in order so that one might get started appreciating his music.
I was really surprised by his writing. The test of being able to deal with hardship reveals a life force I cannot explain rationally. Cave seems to have been imbued with it.
Here’s a Johnny Cash cover of “The Mercy Seat”. If he sounds literary enough for the listener, I’d urge the listener to check his other stuff out.
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eta* I just got done reading Dinsy Etojuz's post. I would also venture to say that the life force I was describing seems almost innate to the person who possesses or does not possess it. I do not want to get fatalistic about hope nor declare it congenital or genetic; but it would seem some people are naturally constituted to have responses to adversity in almost a preset way.
eta2* I also just benefited from reading bigbottom and dgreen's exchange where I learned about the concept of understanding hope in terms of ends and means, and the potential distinction between each of the two poster's understanding of the meaning of the word. That was just a wonderful exchange.
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bigbottom
Footballguy
Again, thank you for your posts. I’ve thought a lot about the concept of hope and how it can impact our lives. I’ve never reduced any of those thoughts to writing, though I’ve toyed with the idea of doing so. This thread got me to finally try to articulate some of the things that have been rattling around in my brain. So thank you @Joe Bryant for starting this thread.
Now be forewarned, there is nothing earth shattering or even particularly insightful here. And it may not be convincing at all to anyone. Maybe my conclusions are nothing more than the pollyanna ramblings of someone trying to escape the abyss. But I believe them all the same. This is all pretty much stream of consciousness, so please forgive any lack of clarity, triteness, or typos.
WHAT IS HOPE?
HOPE IS NOT DENIAL - To be hopeful, one isn’t required to ignore reality. In fact, the recognition of reality is almost an essential component of true hopefulness. When I speak to families facing life altering diagnoses, the mantra I often share is “know the plan, work the plan.” There is a certain peace that comes with having purpose and direction when facing down something so scary. But there is a third part to the mantra - “be hopeful about the plan.” Because being hopeful puts you in a positive frame of mind that helps you mentally meet the unavoidable challenges you must face. Hope is not being blind to reality. Rather, hope is remaining positive as you face it down.
HOPE IS TRIUMPH OVER DESPAIR - When facing a challenging reality, an acute sense of despair can infect and ultimately overwhelm you. Despair is perhaps the most insidious of all emotions. Despair doesn’t spur you to action - it paralyzes you. It steals happiness from you. It makes you feel powerless to the world around you. And when you feel powerless, you often become powerless.
HOPE IS THE ABSENCE OF CYNICISM - There is so much beauty in the world. There is so much goodness in the hearts of those around you. Cynicism makes you suspicious of that beauty and goodness. And when you can’t trust something, in many ways it ceases to exist. A hopeful heart is one that trusts in the beauty and goodness of the world, and that trust has a way of revealing those things to you in fundamental and everlasting ways.
HOPE UNLOCKS JOY - Similarly, when you have a hopeful disposition devoid of despair and cynicism, it opens your heart and mind to experience joy. To welcome it. To embrace moments that make your heart smile. This is of course not to say that joy is unachievable by those who are not hopeful. But for a true cynic, joy is only occasional and almost always momentary.
HOPE IS COMPLICATED . . . AND ALSO SIMPLE - It can be hard to hope. What if I am hopeful and things don’t turn out the way I want them to? What if the bad thing that I fear ends up happening anyway despite all my hope? Will I have regrets? Will I curse my stupid misplaced hopefulness? These questions and thoughts can create doubt, complicating your efforts to have a hopeful heart. Lowering our expectations and giving in to fear and despair is a way to protect ourselves from feeling betrayed by hope.
But one thing I learned after experiencing one of the worst things that a parent can experience is that the outcome is not the point of hope. HOPE IS THE POINT OF HOPE. Sure, had I not had hope, I would have been “right” that life sucks and is unfair. I would have been “right” to be cynical. I would have been “right” to be overwhelmed by despair. And what would being right have cost me? It would have cost me all the joy, all the beauty, all the goodness of those last fifteen months with Chance. As I mentioned during that radio interview, some of the greatest and most meaningful moments of my life occurred during those fifteen months when Chance was battling cancer. Without a hopeful heart, I’m afraid I would have missed them. They would have been invisible to me, lost in the fog of grief and despair and anger. And after losing Chance, had I not fought to regain my hopeful heart, I would have been robbed of all the joy, beauty and goodness that still exists in my life and with my loved ones. Indeed, I very well may have been robbed of life itself. So yes, embracing hope can be difficult and challenging. And you may worry that it will ultimately betray you. But in the end, I think it’s a simple realization that hope, if only for the sake of having hope, is still worth it. Indeed, it may be worth everything.
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bigbottom
Footballguy
@dgreen and @jamny, I’m not sure whether I directly answered your questions. But hopefully I was in the ballpark. I look forward to continued discussion on this topic.
And make no mistake, I’m not saying that we should embrace false positivity and deny ourselves the right to experience grief, and fear, and loss, and anger. Those are all valid and natural feelings that should be felt without shame. The key is not letting those emotions control you and damage your ability to have a meaningful and rewarding life.
And make no mistake, I’m not saying that we should embrace false positivity and deny ourselves the right to experience grief, and fear, and loss, and anger. Those are all valid and natural feelings that should be felt without shame. The key is not letting those emotions control you and damage your ability to have a meaningful and rewarding life.
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Ridgeback
Footballguy
His show has changed dramatically but I'm not sure it's out of character, but evolving.
He has a presence live that I've never seen with another musician. If anyone else tried half his antics it would be pretentious as hell. But the connection he has with his audience is authentic, no doubt.
I'm not religious at all, and it usually turns me off when anyone waves one righteous book or another. That being said, his values on faith have made me think again what faith means, and the searching involved about there being a creator. The search for a higher truth almost seems to him more important than indeed if there is an almighty figure at the end of the tunnel.
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Thank you for sharing that perspective. It's a beautiful testament. Thank you.
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
tl;dr - optimism and hopefulness can be learned and developed even if you're not naturally resilient or optimistic. The book "Learned Optimism" is a fantastic place to start.
I spent a few years in my 20s trying to figure out why my sister and I seemed to be rebounding quickly from some pretty grim stuff while some of the other kids we'd grown up with never got past the things they faced. My sister is writing a memoir right now and it's shocking how many of the kids we knew from our neighborhood are dead or in jail or have been involved with drugs and etc. Anyhow, my motivation wasn't survivor guilt exactly, but "why me" did seem important to try and understand and I ended up turning it into a small research project.
It eventually led me to the idea of "resilience". It's been awhile, so maybe this isn't quite right, but resilience is the naturally occurring ability to remain open and engaged with the world and the people around you, and, especially as a young kid, the ability to get people to engage with you in positive ways. It ties into the ability to bounce back from setbacks. This was in the 90s, so I'm sure the idea's been expanded on and researched to death by this point and this is out of date.
It was a very interesting thing and also very unsatisfying in the end. They were able to measure resilience in infants at what seemed like an almost impossibly young age. And without knowing anything about the infant other than observing it for some period of time you could sort them into buckets where X years later significantly more in one bucket would be in prison, have addictions, etc. It was a depressing answer: there's a lot of dumb luck involved.
But... the more I dug the more the ideas of grace and forgiveness, and optimism and hope layered in on top of that.
The first two are more backward looking -- not letting yourself get tied down by the past. Recognizing that no one "deserves" to be redeemed or saved -- it's a gift -- and that it's self-defeating to hang onto your injuries and grievances. I'm not Christian in the sense most people think of it, but there's deep wisdom there around these ideas IMO.
The second two, optimism and hope, are the way forward. In a lot of ways resilience just means naturally optimistic and hopeful. But it can be developed too. The book "Learned Optimism" was super helpful in understanding that for me. It's a way of thinking that some people have naturally, but can be learned by anyone. It shares some core pieces with Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) in that it changes how you think and self-talk about the events in your life (old and new) and allows you to eventually change the emotions you experience around those events. It's not magic -- it takes a lot of work over time if your wounds are deep -- but the fact that the modern science supported so much of the old wisdom was very appealing.
Hopefully this doesn't come across as TMI, or a look-at-me kind of thing, but these ideas were really important in my life, and I thought sharing it might help someone else.
I spent a few years in my 20s trying to figure out why my sister and I seemed to be rebounding quickly from some pretty grim stuff while some of the other kids we'd grown up with never got past the things they faced. My sister is writing a memoir right now and it's shocking how many of the kids we knew from our neighborhood are dead or in jail or have been involved with drugs and etc. Anyhow, my motivation wasn't survivor guilt exactly, but "why me" did seem important to try and understand and I ended up turning it into a small research project.
It eventually led me to the idea of "resilience". It's been awhile, so maybe this isn't quite right, but resilience is the naturally occurring ability to remain open and engaged with the world and the people around you, and, especially as a young kid, the ability to get people to engage with you in positive ways. It ties into the ability to bounce back from setbacks. This was in the 90s, so I'm sure the idea's been expanded on and researched to death by this point and this is out of date.
It was a very interesting thing and also very unsatisfying in the end. They were able to measure resilience in infants at what seemed like an almost impossibly young age. And without knowing anything about the infant other than observing it for some period of time you could sort them into buckets where X years later significantly more in one bucket would be in prison, have addictions, etc. It was a depressing answer: there's a lot of dumb luck involved.
But... the more I dug the more the ideas of grace and forgiveness, and optimism and hope layered in on top of that.
The first two are more backward looking -- not letting yourself get tied down by the past. Recognizing that no one "deserves" to be redeemed or saved -- it's a gift -- and that it's self-defeating to hang onto your injuries and grievances. I'm not Christian in the sense most people think of it, but there's deep wisdom there around these ideas IMO.
The second two, optimism and hope, are the way forward. In a lot of ways resilience just means naturally optimistic and hopeful. But it can be developed too. The book "Learned Optimism" was super helpful in understanding that for me. It's a way of thinking that some people have naturally, but can be learned by anyone. It shares some core pieces with Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) in that it changes how you think and self-talk about the events in your life (old and new) and allows you to eventually change the emotions you experience around those events. It's not magic -- it takes a lot of work over time if your wounds are deep -- but the fact that the modern science supported so much of the old wisdom was very appealing.
Hopefully this doesn't come across as TMI, or a look-at-me kind of thing, but these ideas were really important in my life, and I thought sharing it might help someone else.
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bigbottom
Footballguy
I love this so much. Very insightful. I am going to look into that book.
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
That means a lot coming from you BB. Thank you.
Check to be sure what's in that specific book is still the current thinking. I'm sure the core ideas are still alive, but they may have been developed over the years too.
Judge Smails
Footballguy
Thank you for this BB. I am estranged from my son which is killing me and Mrs Smails. The hope vs despair battle is real. What you have done in honor of Chance has always inspired me. I will choose hope.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
This is one of the best posts I’ve ever read on this forum.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
I’m dealing with this. It is very difficult to process. Both of my folks have passed, went through a divorce, was replaced as CFO two years after I spent 20 years of trying to grab that ring…being incommunicado with my first born hurts as much or more than anything I have experienced.
(OK not as devastating as dealing with after affects of combat trauma, but that’s neither here nor there….my heart aches that my oldest is not in my life.)
My heart goes for you and Mrs Smalls. I can find few soothing words. Hang tough, brother man. Never lose hope one day it gets better, resolves, and all of you experience forgiveness and healing.
Will be praying for you and your family.
Wow, so many thoughtful perspectives in this thread. Thank you, everyone - great thread!
Chapeau, FFA.
dgreen
Footballguy
Thanks for your response. I think you did answer my question, but not necessarily in the way I was asking. I hesitated to even ask my question because I felt like I was asking you to intellectualize your experience. I was asking a head question and you appropriately provided a heart answer.
I believe many things can only really be known through experience. My experiences have led me to not really need to lean on hope, making me struggle to really know what hope is. Your experience was very different, providing a true knowledge of hope.
Trying to communicate those types of things between two different life experiences isn’t easy. Hope as an end and not a means to an end is something I will have to wrestle with.
bigbottom
Footballguy
Man that is really tough. I can imagine that it’s tearing you up. But I’m so glad you are choosing to have a hopeful heart for your life as it exists presently, and perhaps even for one day repairing the relationship with your son.
bigbottom
Footballguy
Will be praying for you as well brother. Hang in there.
Judge Smails
Footballguy
Thank you, Bobby. I never knew what No Contact was until it happened to us. Now I know it is rampant. Praying for you and your family as well. So tough.
jamny
Footballguy
This thread, and specifically this post, have given me lots to think about. Specifically about hope vs. optimism. I've always freely considered myself to be an eternal optimist but never thought of myself as hopeful. It seems too forward thinking to me and out of my control. I know it sounds cliche but I really have always tried to live for today. I have never really been nostalgic for the past and while I may plan for things in the future, it is done to ensure that my "today" is the best it can be. Like planning a vacation. I'll also admit that there's a flaw in my way of thinking in that I might have been able to achieve more in my life if I planned more but I am as happy as I've ever been and really couldn't ask for anything more in my life right now. Hopeful people seem to plan more to make a better future happen.
Another thing is, I have never had to endure anything close to what @bigbottom and others have and I never will. Sure, either my wife or I will someday face a serious challenge, but it is to be expected. My wife is generally a pessimist and I've always tried to be a counter to that and keep her focused on the now and staying positive. She did have a medical scare a few years ago and I got to see her strength and resilience at the time, so I don't worry about how she'll handle things.
I found this to be a very interesting read
dgreen
Footballguy
I was thinking about this some more and it is similar to another "unrealistic" perspective that I think is helpful. I'm a fan of giving people the benefit of the doubt. I think we should approach others with the belief that they are doing their best to do what's right. And, for the most part, I think that's true. But it's obviously not literally true all the time. I realize there are bad actors out there, but I just don't think I come in contact with them enough for me to view the world that way. Even when someone does behave poorly, I find it best to just assume they are having a bad moment in an otherwise good life. We all have those moments. If I see myself as someone who largely wants to do good but has moments that aren't so friendly to others, then that's how I should view others too. It's that old saying that we judge others by their outcomes but we want to be judged by our intentions.
Also, on a not-so-serious level, I think I'll try to incorporate hope into my son's senior year of high school football. It looks like he'll be a backup. I don't think it's a horrible decision by the coaches, but I would just really love for him to be able to get some good playing and gain that experience. When I have the mindset based on a lack of hope, it makes me think I'm not going to enjoy going this games. Maybe I'll try this hope thing so I can enjoy it better. We'll see. At some point I'll get frustrated and probably mumble rude comments in the stands about the coaches, but I'll have good intentions and that's how I should be judged!
Also, on a not-so-serious level, I think I'll try to incorporate hope into my son's senior year of high school football. It looks like he'll be a backup. I don't think it's a horrible decision by the coaches, but I would just really love for him to be able to get some good playing and gain that experience. When I have the mindset based on a lack of hope, it makes me think I'm not going to enjoy going this games. Maybe I'll try this hope thing so I can enjoy it better. We'll see. At some point I'll get frustrated and probably mumble rude comments in the stands about the coaches, but I'll have good intentions and that's how I should be judged!
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