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Hostage situation in Bangladesh (1 Viewer)

Ministry of Pain said:
You said up top it's not 2,000 years old. Muhammad was alive 570-622 AD according to history, it's still 1,400 years old. You made it sound like it was as old as Scientology :)  
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When you read something I didn't type or mean, that's your fault.  Not mine. I can explain things to you, but I can't understand them for you.

 
Ministry of Pain said:
What do you do when something that is part of a religion or widely accepted as A-OK within the religion strikes against the moral code of many Americans?
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This really isn't complicated. In America muslims live peacefully and generally embrace American values.

Look at the Garland situation - there was an exhibit potentially offensive to muslims but 1 guy from Phoenix flipped out? Or was it 2? American muslims may object to some religious depictions, but like Catholics and Christians, Jewish, they respect the laws, like all of us. I don't even understand this issue in the context of Dhaka.

In Bangladesh there have been serious issues with attacks on what are basically secular or democratic writers and artists, there it is a major problem.

 
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Ministry of Pain said:
Let's steer the conversation towards money instead of religion because most of these folks blowing themselves up are pretty much brain washed by the top level losers in these organizations. There is a culture clash but I think it goes deeper than religion. 

They don't like Western values, period. You can scream Muslim/Islam, listen folks there are plenty of religions that are conservative and have not come around to 21st Century Western culture or European like societies. I think it's deplorable the way women are treated in the Middle East but look how long it took for women to have a voice in America and we still are scared to elect a female President (You bet your ### I just said that). 

You cannot expect everyone to adopt our way or standard of living. Whatever we do here, those are our beliefs as a society, it's not for us to say how others should behave in their own countries. I wish they were nicer and more progressive with their LGBT views but the fact is they kill them for sport in the Middle East. Act shocked, run around with your hands in the air but in the end it doesn't matter. You are not going to take these people and fast forward them 500-1,000 years into modern day America. 

And if you want to visit these countries, good luck with that and I wish you well in your travels. But please don't go there and then come back and do some journalist piece on the horrors going on there. A group of thugs and terrorists formed a triangle covering a large chunk of the desert from Syria to Iraq and there are a lot of moving pieces and you can't just point at one thing and say that's the problem. Saudi Arabia is supposed to be our friend but yet they seem to be responsible in part for 9/11 and treat human beings especially women and gays something horrific there. 

I meet Muslims in America, in general they are pretty nice folks. Rare I find one who is not pretty committed to America and our values/way of life. I know it's hard to not paint in a broad stroke or condemn Muslims but in a lot of ways we are falling into their trap and help their cause. I wish it weren't true but the more they can get wall to wall coverage with Paris...Orlando...Turkey...Bangladesh and I'm missing a bunch. And now we are wasting our time discussing it here on a Friday Night when we should be spending the time we have the folks we love and who love us. 

#### these ####s!!!
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Money?  What do we know about their money? That they occasionally take hostages to try and fund their resources to kill us?

We aren't expecting them to adopt our way of life, we are expecting them to not kill us for it. 

Brainwashing is part of and because of their religion. They aren't doing it because they're a young religion, they aren't doing it because they are confined to an oppressed part of the word, they aren't doing it to get rich, they are doing it because they really believe that ####. 

 
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Henry Ford said:
primarily contained in an area of the world filled with underdeveloped nations and dictatorial / feudal / slave labor regimes
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So "the world" filled that area with underdeveloped nations and dictatorial/feudal/slave labor regimes rather than the people of that area being more responsible for their underdeveloped dictatorial/feudal/ slave labor state?  

I agree that foreign powers helped draw national boundaries that would lead to ethnic/religious conflict and that there would be less conflict if those groups were autonomous (Joe Biden), but I fail to see how "the world" is responsible for lifetsyle and political choices that seem to be part and parcel with that area of the world and the religion that dominates it.

Perhaps I can agree with you that American intervention in recent years has helped facilitate a worse North Africa and Middle East  (overthrow of fairly secular Sadam Hussein led to religious and ethnic conflict; overthrow of Mubarak led to chaos and rise of fundamentalist forces; overthrow of Qadafy led to chaos and rise of fundamentalist forces; and the attempted overthrow of al-Assad ia leading to chaos and the rise of fundamentalist forces), but then I'd ask why you'd want to continue the policy of Secretary of State Clinton as President Clinton if you're concerned about "the world" creating a more feudal Islamic world.

 
BBC news was talking about how Bangladesh has been refusing to acknowledge that the Islamic State is responsible for previous murders.  They blame political opposition and other straw men similar to some in this thread. They said they are going to have to face that Islam State is a real threat after this. 

 
tonydead said:
Money?  What do we know about their money? That they occasionally take hostages to try and fund their resources to kill us?

We aren't expecting them to adopt our way of life, we are expecting them to not kill us for it. 

Brainwashing is part of and because of their religion. They aren't doing it because they're a young religion, they aren't doing it because they are confined to an oppressed part of the word, they aren't doing it to get rich, they are doing it because they really believe that ####. 
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I enjoy the spirit of many of your posts. I say money because most are poor and have a bag of sand to their name. They are not recruiting elitists and convincing people who already have a purpose in life to join their cause. Of course there are exceptions.

Money is not the root of all evil, lack of money is. Put it another way, a person with no hope is a dangerous human being. These folks must feel hopeless until the hooligans show up and preach fundamentalism and some way out for these folks. 

Seems like most of the world managed to get along within reason with these folks until about the 20th Century...the Crusades were not the Muslims' idea of a good time, there's plenty of blood on all religions. But in the last 100 years it seems like they have become what we are sold as the true enemy. Let's be honest, when Israel was recognized post WWII, it's been a real tough burden to be their best friend. The Middle East hates them and Americans are conditioned to feel sympathetic towards Israel, there can be almost no debate about this. The reality of the Israel/Palestine conflict and the relationships they have with the Middle East, I'll leave that alone as everyone has their own opinion. 

America wasn't fighting with the Middle East in the 1700s, 1800s, but then the 20th century rolls around and we start needing oil and resources from there as time moves on and we are forced to try and figure out a way to get along with everyone. It hasn't worked out well, it isn't working presently and it's not likely to work in the future as long as we lower our values in the name of buying goods and resources or expanding our empire. 

 
tonydead said:
BBC news was talking about how Bangladesh has been refusing to acknowledge that the Islamic State is responsible for previous murders.  They blame political opposition and other straw men similar to some in this thread. They said they are going to have to face that Islam State is a real threat after this. 
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Who in this thread is not blaming terrorism? 

 
Ministry of Pain said:
I enjoy the spirit of many of your posts. I say money because most are poor and have a bag of sand to their name. They are not recruiting elitists and convincing people who already have a purpose in life to join their cause. Of course there are exceptions.

Money is not the root of all evil, lack of money is. Put it another way, a person with no hope is a dangerous human being. These folks must feel hopeless until the hooligans show up and preach fundamentalism and some way out for these folks. 

Seems like most of the world managed to get along within reason with these folks until about the 20th Century...the Crusades were not the Muslims' idea of a good time, there's plenty of blood on all religions. But in the last 100 years it seems like they have become what we are sold as the true enemy. Let's be honest, when Israel was recognized post WWII, it's been a real tough burden to be their best friend. The Middle East hates them and Americans are conditioned to feel sympathetic towards Israel, there can be almost no debate about this. The reality of the Israel/Palestine conflict and the relationships they have with the Middle East, I'll leave that alone as everyone has their own opinion. 

America wasn't fighting with the Middle East in the 1700s, 1800s, but then the 20th century rolls around and we start needing oil and resources from there as time moves on and we are forced to try and figure out a way to get along with everyone. It hasn't worked out well, it isn't working presently and it's not likely to work in the future as long as we lower our values in the name of buying goods and resources or expanding our empire. 
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The wars involving Israel were against Egypt, Jordan and Syria. The Palestinians lived in Israel until Arab propaganda told them to get out the way so they could destroy Israel. Except when they didn't, the Israelis said " we'd prefer you stay where you ran away."

 
Ministry of Pain said:
I enjoy the spirit of many of your posts. I say money because most are poor and have a bag of sand to their name. They are not recruiting elitists and convincing people who already have a purpose in life to join their cause. Of course there are exceptions.

Money is not the root of all evil, lack of money is. Put it another way, a person with no hope is a dangerous human being. These folks must feel hopeless until the hooligans show up and preach fundamentalism and some way out for these folks. 

Seems like most of the world managed to get along within reason with these folks until about the 20th Century...the Crusades were not the Muslims' idea of a good time, there's plenty of blood on all religions. But in the last 100 years it seems like they have become what we are sold as the true enemy. Let's be honest, when Israel was recognized post WWII, it's been a real tough burden to be their best friend. The Middle East hates them and Americans are conditioned to feel sympathetic towards Israel, there can be almost no debate about this. The reality of the Israel/Palestine conflict and the relationships they have with the Middle East, I'll leave that alone as everyone has their own opinion. 

America wasn't fighting with the Middle East in the 1700s, 1800s, but then the 20th century rolls around and we start needing oil and resources from there as time moves on and we are forced to try and figure out a way to get along with everyone. It hasn't worked out well, it isn't working presently and it's not likely to work in the future as long as we lower our values in the name of buying goods and resources or expanding our empire. 
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Signing up to blow themselves up because they are poor doesn't make much sense. Signing up for 720 virgins in the afterlife does. 

Religion has a lot of blood on its hands indeed. 

 
timschochet said:
Who in this thread is not blaming terrorism? 
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Terrorism is the result not the cause.

So far we've had people blame the dark ages, geographical location, political reasons and money for terrorism rather than the one thing all these guys have in common which is religion. 

 
tonydead said:
Signing up to blow themselves up because they are poor doesn't make much sense. Signing up for 720 virgins in the afterlife does. 

Religion has a lot of blood on its hands indeed. 
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You are going to have a hard time convincing a person who is well off to give that up for umpteen numbers of virgins in the after life, those folks can afford a hooker in the real world. They are recruiting people who have nothing and I would imagine they start by feeding those who are hungry or bringing food initially to areas where they know they can recruit, once they feed them and get them to calm down, next they start brainwashing them. It's not that hard to figure out how this happens.

Here is the real issue right now. Syria is a major PIA, we would like new leadership and Russia is determined that won't happen. And Russia has been going out of their way to provoke us or have they? Vice on HBO really showed how close some of these missile shield/defense systems sit to Russia's border, we would never allow anything like that in say Mexico or Canada but Russia is expected to just put up with it because we are the wonderful United States...see where this starts getting complicated.  

Next pour in a civil war in Syria and ISIS like a looter in a riot picking up recruits and resources and making it look like they are conquering in the wake of unrest, they thrive on it. We can't just march into Syria and mow them down, it's not that simple. We sort of have to use the drones and not report much of what happens or brag when we bag a few bad guys, it's complicated. 

Next we have a bunch of iffy governments in places we were trying to prop up like Iraq and Afghanistan, things are far from smooth in these areas.

I get the tone you simply feel the world would be a better place with a couple less religions in it. Are you an equal opp hater here? I admit Christians for the most part seem to be the most flexible and easy to get along with but I was raised as one of them even if I reject most of it now. Most of this country is Christian or identifies themselves as Christian. I hate saying one religion is better than another, seems unfair when both/most/all have a rap sheet a mile long. 

 
tonydead said:
Terrorism is the result not the cause.

So far we've had people blame the dark ages, geographical location, political reasons and money for terrorism rather than the one thing all these guys have in common which is religion. 
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Seems like they lack religion. By and large most religions are peaceful in nature, yes/no? The extremists is a twisted version, you understand that. They behead people, that's just a criminal and punishable by any means the law sees fit. What is they were sun worshipers? 

It wasn't like this always. These folks were amazing back in the Ottoman Empire, they were a gateway for the silk roads and bridging the Far East to Western Europe. The contributions made thru art, literature, and fundamentals such as math/Algebra, these folks were not stupid and not acting like savages the entire way. 

Something has happened more recently that has seemed to cause a collision of ideologies.

 
tonydead said:
Terrorism is the result not the cause.

So far we've had people blame the dark ages, geographical location, political reasons and money for terrorism rather than the one thing all these guys have in common which is religion. 
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But the problem with this commonality is that the vast majority of Muslims do not practice terrorism. 

 
Ministry of Pain said:
You are going to have a hard time convincing a person who is well off to give that up for umpteen numbers of virgins in the after life, those folks can afford a hooker in the real world. They are recruiting people who have nothing and I would imagine they start by feeding those who are hungry or bringing food initially to areas where they know they can recruit, once they feed them and get them to calm down, next they start brainwashing them. It's not that hard to figure out how this happens.

Here is the real issue right now. Syria is a major PIA, we would like new leadership and Russia is determined that won't happen. And Russia has been going out of their way to provoke us or have they? Vice on HBO really showed how close some of these missile shield/defense systems sit to Russia's border, we would never allow anything like that in say Mexico or Canada but Russia is expected to just put up with it because we are the wonderful United States...see where this starts getting complicated.  

Next pour in a civil war in Syria and ISIS like a looter in a riot picking up recruits and resources and making it look like they are conquering in the wake of unrest, they thrive on it. We can't just march into Syria and mow them down, it's not that simple. We sort of have to use the drones and not report much of what happens or brag when we bag a few bad guys, it's complicated. 

Next we have a bunch of iffy governments in places we were trying to prop up like Iraq and Afghanistan, things are far from smooth in these areas.

I get the tone you simply feel the world would be a better place with a couple less religions in it. Are you an equal opp hater here? I admit Christians for the most part seem to be the most flexible and easy to get along with but I was raised as one of them even if I reject most of it now. Most of this country is Christian or identifies themselves as Christian. I hate saying one religion is better than another, seems unfair when both/most/all have a rap sheet a mile long. 
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I'm not sure how much any of this has to do with Bangladesh. 

 
tonydead said:
Terrorism is the result not the cause.

So far we've had people blame the dark ages, geographical location, political reasons and money for terrorism rather than the one thing all these guys have in common which is religion. 
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Religion is the tool used to manipulate. ..

 
bueno said:
The history is interesting, but Henry has somewhat of a point. After the conquest of Arabia by the Ottomans and their subsequent defeat, Islam is kind of in their dark ages. It matters not that their Golden Age was really the Golden Age of other cultures they conquered and converted, it was a golden age that has since disappeared, leaving them in a near-feudal situation. It is a pity that the riches that the Arabs are making off of oil isn't pulling them out, because when their oil is gone, they will fall on even harder times.
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Take the bin Laden family for example.  They are wealthy and intimately connected with the innermost circles of the Saudi Royal family.

 
Southern Africa is a violent brutal place and it's mostly Christian so let's now confine Africa's problems to the Northern Muslim areas.  WW1 and WW2 created instability through Africa and especially the ME. Also, let us not forget that for many extensive periods of history Muslim countries/empires were progressive and flourished. Hell, in the 60s and early 70s, lots of the areas we consider the heart of extreme Islam were quite liberal. However, there was a strong backlash by conservatives against the liberals and we got the overthrown dynasty in Iran. We also got the extremist right wing groups fighting the Soviets and receiving American support in Afghanistan. In the scope of history, this issue with Islam is a very new one. 

 
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