Housing While Black (2 Viewers)

[TexanFan02]

Dude, there are pictures of him obviously yelling at the top of his lungs.

you can tell this from a picture? really? I don't think it's possible.

I guess he could be silently screaming, or making that noise they made in The Body Snatchers, but I consider that highly unlikely.

 

[timschochet]

The issue of Gates yelling remains an important point as well. Gates says he never yelled, was incapable of yelling, and claims he can prove it based on the fact that he was treated for a severe bronchial infection. Once again, the only witnesses to Crowley's assertion that Gates was yelling are other policemen who confirmed it after the fact. Earlier on in this thread, Pat Patriot and many other posters asserted that there were other witnesses to Gates yelling as well, but none of these have ever come forward, and I doubt at this point they even exist.If Gates was not yelling, this destroy's Christo's argument about "disturbing the peace" which he attempted to repeat for several pages. It removes even the slightest justification for this arrest, and it proves about 90% of the posters in this thread completely wrong in their assumptions about this matter, along with most of right wing talk radio.

Dude, there are pictures of him obviously yelling at the top of his lungs. That makes him a liar, and makes the cop's story more credible. For someone that seems to dedicate their life to this thread, I would think you'd at least have done a little research, or at least read the thread where this was discussed 20-30 pages ago.

Dude, there is one picture where he looks excited. I don't think it's evident that he's yelling at the top of his lungs. I've done quite a bit of research on this issue, and I've read the thread. There's been a lot of wrong assumptions in this thread.

 

[timschochet]

Dude, there are pictures of him obviously yelling at the top of his lungs.

you can tell this from a picture? really? I don't think it's possible.

I guess he could be silently screaming, or making that noise they made in The Body Snatchers, but I consider that highly unlikely.

Unbelievable. You guys will simply not accept that the police might have lied here. It's just not possible in your eyes, is it?

 

[TexanFan02]

The issue of Gates yelling remains an important point as well. Gates says he never yelled, was incapable of yelling, and claims he can prove it based on the fact that he was treated for a severe bronchial infection. Once again, the only witnesses to Crowley's assertion that Gates was yelling are other policemen who confirmed it after the fact. Earlier on in this thread, Pat Patriot and many other posters asserted that there were other witnesses to Gates yelling as well, but none of these have ever come forward, and I doubt at this point they even exist.

If Gates was not yelling, this destroy's Christo's argument about "disturbing the peace" which he attempted to repeat for several pages. It removes even the slightest justification for this arrest, and it proves about 90% of the posters in this thread completely wrong in their assumptions about this matter, along with most of right wing talk radio.

Dude, there are pictures of him obviously yelling at the top of his lungs. That makes him a liar, and makes the cop's story more credible. For someone that seems to dedicate their life to this thread, I would think you'd at least have done a little research, or at least read the thread where this was discussed 20-30 pages ago.

Dude, there is one picture where he looks excited. I don't think it's evident that he's yelling at the top of his lungs. I've done quite a bit of research on this issue, and I've read the thread. There's been a lot of wrong assumptions in this thread.

Oh, that's for sure.Who posted in: Housing While Black

Poster Posts

timschochet 114

 

[NorvilleBarnes]

I've done quite a bit of research on this issue, and I've read the thread.

 

[timschochet]

According to the police tapes, Crowley identifies that it's Gates, he further identifies that he lives there, and then he instructs the other cars to "keep coming".

On the tape he said "he claims to live here" before he made the comment about keeping the cars coming. He hadn't identified him yet.

I will look at it again, to see if this correct. Even if it is, it doesn't change things. I'm sure he strongly suspected that Gates was telling the truth and confirmed it by seeing his ID a second later. To ask for backup at that point makes no sense unless he had an arrest in the back of his mind.

He is one officer on scene at an unknown place but with visual evidence corroborative of a felony in progress, one located unknown person who refused his first lawful order and is argumentative, and one person as yet unlocated since his initial information involved two men. He has no present knowledge as to whether a crime is in fact in progress and he is facing multiple potentially armed suspects. You think he should go it alone?

Come on, DW, what visual evidence? The suitcases? You're taking Crowley's description of events word for word as gospel. Yes, I suppose it could have happened this way. But it's much more likely he knew there was no felony there. He was just pissed off at the way Gates was talking to him, and decided on the spur of the moment to arrest him. The police report was a cover up of what really happened after the fact. That is my opinion, based on what is most likely from what we know about this.

 

[timschochet]

I've done quite a bit of research on this issue, and I've read the thread.

I know, the two are contradictory.

 

[timschochet]

The issue of Gates yelling remains an important point as well. Gates says he never yelled, was incapable of yelling, and claims he can prove it based on the fact that he was treated for a severe bronchial infection. Once again, the only witnesses to Crowley's assertion that Gates was yelling are other policemen who confirmed it after the fact. Earlier on in this thread, Pat Patriot and many other posters asserted that there were other witnesses to Gates yelling as well, but none of these have ever come forward, and I doubt at this point they even exist.

If Gates was not yelling, this destroy's Christo's argument about "disturbing the peace" which he attempted to repeat for several pages. It removes even the slightest justification for this arrest, and it proves about 90% of the posters in this thread completely wrong in their assumptions about this matter, along with most of right wing talk radio.

Dude, there are pictures of him obviously yelling at the top of his lungs. That makes him a liar, and makes the cop's story more credible. For someone that seems to dedicate their life to this thread, I would think you'd at least have done a little research, or at least read the thread where this was discussed 20-30 pages ago.

Dude, there is one picture where he looks excited. I don't think it's evident that he's yelling at the top of his lungs. I've done quite a bit of research on this issue, and I've read the thread. There's been a lot of wrong assumptions in this thread.

Oh, that's for sure.Who posted in: Housing While Black

Poster Posts

timschochet 114

Nice retort, sir. But of course, those were not the assumptions I was referring to.

 

[Pat Patriot]

According to the police tapes, Crowley identifies that it's Gates, he further identifies that he lives there, and then he instructs the other cars to "keep coming".

On the tape he said "he claims to live here" before he made the comment about keeping the cars coming. He hadn't identified him yet.

I will look at it again, to see if this correct. Even if it is, it doesn't change things. I'm sure he strongly suspected that Gates was telling the truth and confirmed it by seeing his ID a second later. To ask for backup at that point makes no sense unless he had an arrest in the back of his mind.

He is one officer on scene at an unknown place but with visual evidence corroborative of a felony in progress, one located unknown person who refused his first lawful order and is argumentative, and one person as yet unlocated since his initial information involved two men. He has no present knowledge as to whether a crime is in fact in progress and he is facing multiple potentially armed suspects. You think he should go it alone?

Come on, DW, what visual evidence? The suitcases? You're taking Crowley's description of events word for word as gospel. Yes, I suppose it could have happened this way. But it's much more likely he knew there was no felony there. He was just pissed off at the way Gates was talking to him, and decided on the spur of the moment to arrest him. The police report was a cover up of what really happened after the fact. That is my opinion, based on what is most likely from what we know about this.

Tim, I think the visual evidence that DW refers to is the busted door which is consistent with a break in.Come on, Tim. Who is the more credible witness in this case? Crowley or Gates? It just makes more sense that it happened the way the police say it did. Yes, some cops lie. Not every cop is a blatant liar.

 

[the moops]

Yes, some cops lie. Not every cop is a blatant liar.

Nor is every black man living in Cambridge.

 

[Pat Patriot]

Yes, some cops lie. Not every cop is a blatant liar.

Nor is every black man living in Cambridge.

Why cant you look at just this case? Who is more credible in this instance? Who has been backed up by other peoples accounts?Aaron and Tim want to believe that Gates wasnt yelling because he said it was impossible for him to yell. I have read articles where the neighbors said that Gates was yelling on the front porch. This has been backed up by every other policeman on the scene.

 

[timschochet]

Come on, Tim. Who is the more credible witness in this case? Crowley or Gates? It just makes more sense that it happened the way the police say it did. Yes, some cops lie. Not every cop is a blatant liar.

I never said they were. In this case, I disagree with you. It makes much more sense to me that the cops were untruthful.

 

[Pat Patriot]

Come on, Tim. Who is the more credible witness in this case? Crowley or Gates? It just makes more sense that it happened the way the police say it did. Yes, some cops lie. Not every cop is a blatant liar.

I never said they were. In this case, I disagree with you. It makes much more sense to me that the cops were untruthful.

Please unpack that. Why do you believe that 8 policeman are lying?

 

[timschochet]

Yes, some cops lie. Not every cop is a blatant liar.

Nor is every black man living in Cambridge.

Why cant you look at just this case? Who is more credible in this instance? Who has been backed up by other peoples accounts?Aaron and Tim want to believe that Gates wasnt yelling because he said it was impossible for him to yell. I have read articles where the neighbors said that Gates was yelling on the front porch. This has been backed up by every other policeman on the scene.

Again, I repeat, show me these articles! I will change my mind, I swear. You've claimed neighbors as witnesses from the beginning, and I can't find them. This is one reason I think the way I do. I'm really not trying to argue with you, Pat. Show me some neighbors who were quoted agreeing with the police side of events, and it will prove to me that Gates is a liar.

 

[The Big Guy]

Come on, Tim. Who is the more credible witness in this case? Crowley or Gates? It just makes more sense that it happened the way the police say it did. Yes, some cops lie. Not every cop is a blatant liar.

I never said they were. In this case, I disagree with you. It makes much more sense to me that the cops were untruthful.

Is this really your argument? The cops will eventually release the tapes of the radio calls in and that is when this story becomes finalized. Since Crowley has been saying from day 1 that he held open the mic on his radio so dispatch could hear and record the screaming rants of Gates, it makes more sense to me that Gates is being untruthful.

 

[timschochet]

Come on, Tim. Who is the more credible witness in this case? Crowley or Gates? It just makes more sense that it happened the way the police say it did. Yes, some cops lie. Not every cop is a blatant liar.

I never said they were. In this case, I disagree with you. It makes much more sense to me that the cops were untruthful.

Please unpack that. Why do you believe that 8 policeman are lying?

One policeman makes a report, and the rest back him up. It happens all the time, and you know it does.However, if there are other witnesses on the scene, that will make a difference, at least to me.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

According to the police tapes, Crowley identifies that it's Gates, he further identifies that he lives there, and then he instructs the other cars to "keep coming".

On the tape he said "he claims to live here" before he made the comment about keeping the cars coming. He hadn't identified him yet.

I will look at it again, to see if this correct. Even if it is, it doesn't change things. I'm sure he strongly suspected that Gates was telling the truth and confirmed it by seeing his ID a second later. To ask for backup at that point makes no sense unless he had an arrest in the back of his mind.

He is one officer on scene at an unknown place but with visual evidence corroborative of a felony in progress, one located unknown person who refused his first lawful order and is argumentative, and one person as yet unlocated since his initial information involved two men. He has no present knowledge as to whether a crime is in fact in progress and he is facing multiple potentially armed suspects. You think he should go it alone?

Come on, DW, what visual evidence? The suitcases? You're taking Crowley's description of events word for word as gospel. Yes, I suppose it could have happened this way. But it's much more likely he knew there was no felony there. He was just pissed off at the way Gates was talking to him, and decided on the spur of the moment to arrest him. The police report was a cover up of what really happened after the fact. That is my opinion, based on what is most likely from what we know about this.

I'll try this again, and slowly. You tell me where I get it wrong and you analyse it not from the end ,knowing the ultimate outcome, but from the point of view of an officer with the facts unfolding.Officers are dispatched to a home. Their information is that there may have been a break in, it seems to be in fact in progress, and it involves, reportedly, two men forcing the front door.Sgt. Crowley arrives on scene. He maybe has some conversation with the reporting party who is around the front of the residence and he then walks up to the front door porch area.The front door is in fact broken Gates admits as much. This would be some independant corroboration that a break in may have occured or actually be in progress. The independant visual evidence is not dispositive, but it is consistent with the theory and it is not what one would expect from a home in a well maintained neighborhood.The officer can see a man inside the residence. The man's identity is unknown. A home invasion may be in progress. A reported second suspect is out of sight, doing what, or presenting what danger to the officer who can say? The situation is unfolding.The Sgt seeks identification. He absolutely has that right in a situation that he can at this point articulate as an apparent felony in progress. How he seeks this we do not know with certainty from the stories as they are jumbled, mixed, and somewhat contradictory. He could have made a polite request, he could have made an urgent demand, or he could have fallen back on his training and years of experience and done it right by identifying himself and issuing a lawful order to keep his hands in plain sight, to approach, and to identify himself. Given he is a training officer, experienced, and with interest in controlling a potentially dangerous situation I tend to strongly believe the latter as it is in the Cops self interest because proper procedure here helps insure his own safety. I understand for others they may dispute or question the point. Nothing here is certain, I freely grant that. Self interest and self preservation are, however, stronger incentives for my belief than mere convenience because I would like to advance an argument. In fact I believe that Gates has said his first reactions were some involving surprise and then indignation followed by him questioning the officer. I have yet to see where he stated that he did these things only after his first initial cooperation so I feel pretty comfortable here but i do acknowledge other actual possibilities.Next we have some divergence of story, but not much, and I bleieve it is admitted even by Gates that his first response was not to obey the what, request? lawful order? but rather to begin by giving the officer grief. His resposne was not to cooperate but to gain control of the situation and have it play out to his individual seense of decorum. If Gates did in fact refuse the lawful order he has right there, at that instance committed a crime. He could be a felon, maybe armed, from all the officer knows up until that crucial point. He could have an armed accomplice endangering the officer or citizens. He has broken the law, potentially prolonged a very dangerous encounter (remember we do not yet know Gates is a mild mannered loud mouth who rightfully lives there and that there is no felony in progress), that is yet to be determined. So at this crucial point, have I made any major errors you would take issue with. If so what? If not we have the established crime of failing to obey a lawful order and with the initial call still very much up in the air. Do you feel the cop should proceed without backup? Do you think in the Cops experience in such situations that real criminals don't try to talk their way out of things or give stories? What do you think correct procedure should be? What procedure would you impose on all cops at this point?Answer this much and we can go on from there. Remembe I admit I do not know there was a refusal of a lawful order though I do believe there most likely was. If you want, rather than taking only the one side you could, as I have, speak to both possibilities. Lets not get to the fact, or be clouded by the fact, that seconds from now he will both begin to I.D. himself and to be abusive. That is yet to come, but at this moment what have we?

 

[timschochet]

Come on, Tim. Who is the more credible witness in this case? Crowley or Gates? It just makes more sense that it happened the way the police say it did. Yes, some cops lie. Not every cop is a blatant liar.

I never said they were. In this case, I disagree with you. It makes much more sense to me that the cops were untruthful.

Is this really your argument? The cops will eventually release the tapes of the radio calls in and that is when this story becomes finalized. Since Crowley has been saying from day 1 that he held open the mic on his radio so dispatch could hear and record the screaming rants of Gates, it makes more sense to me that Gates is being untruthful.

If that finally happens, of course I will not only change my mind but come in here and issue a big mea culpa.But I doubt this will happen: if they had a tape of Gates yelling, it would have long since been released. The story is finalized as far as the police are concerned; the charges were dropped. They would have no motive for not releasing this at this point.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

Aaron and Tim want to believe that Gates wasnt yelling because he said it was impossible for him to yell.

I don't "want" to believe anything. I just think a picture is inconclusive when trying to figure out how loud someone is being so not sure why people continue to refer to it as "proof". If you have a sore throat and get agitated enough where you try to yell, it might look like you're yelling in a picture but I doubt anyone around you would say you were "yelling at the top of your lungs" or whatever the report says happened.I actually find the police report pretty believable for the most part, but that doesn't mean we should accept everything in it as a 100% unbiased and objective report of what actually happened.

 

[Pat Patriot]

Aaron and Tim want to believe that Gates wasnt yelling because he said it was impossible for him to yell.

I don't "want" to believe anything. I just think a picture is inconclusive when trying to figure out how loud someone is being so not sure why people continue to refer to it as "proof". If you have a sore throat and get agitated enough where you try to yell, it might look like you're yelling in a picture but I doubt anyone around you would say you were "yelling at the top of your lungs" or whatever the report says happened.I actually find the police report pretty believable for the most part, but that doesn't mean we should accept everything in it as a 100% unbiased and objective report of what actually happened.

Aaron, I am not going off of the picture. I am going off the statements of the police and the neighbors who said that Gates was yelling loudly from his porch. Based on the eyewitness testimony, the picture supports the fact that Gates was out of control and yelling at the Cops.

 

[timschochet]

DW, you do not have it right, at least not according to Professor Gates. At no point did he ever admit refusing to give Crowley an ID. From his story:

All of a sudden, there was a policeman on my porch. And I thought, ‘This is strange.’ So I went over to the front porch still holding the phone, and I said ‘Officer, can I help you?’ And he said, ‘Would you step outside onto the porch.’ And the way he said it, I knew he wasn’t canvassing for the police benevolent association. All the hairs stood up on the back of my neck, and I realized that I was in danger. And I said to him no, out of instinct. I said, ‘No, I will not.’

My lawyers later told me that that was a good move and had I walked out onto the porch he could have arrested me for breaking and entering. He said ‘I’m here to investigate a 911 call for breaking and entering into this house.’ And I said ‘That’s ridiculous because this happens to be my house. And I’m a Harvard professor.’ He says ‘Can you prove that you’re a Harvard professor?’ I said yes, I turned and closed the front door to the kitchen where I’d left my wallet, and I got out my Harvard ID and my Massachusetts driver’s license which includes my address and I handed them to him. And he’s sitting there looking at them.

In your post, you stated:

I bleieve it is admitted even by Gates that his first response was not to obey the what, request? lawful order? but rather to begin by giving the officer grief. His resposne was not to cooperate but to gain control of the situation and have it play out to his individual seense of decorum.

So this is not correct, according to Gates. As I wrote before, you have accepted Crowley's version of events here. If Gates is telling the trth, he gave both his Harvard ID and Drivers License to Crowley. He complied.

 

[timschochet]

Aaron and Tim want to believe that Gates wasnt yelling because he said it was impossible for him to yell.

I don't "want" to believe anything. I just think a picture is inconclusive when trying to figure out how loud someone is being so not sure why people continue to refer to it as "proof". If you have a sore throat and get agitated enough where you try to yell, it might look like you're yelling in a picture but I doubt anyone around you would say you were "yelling at the top of your lungs" or whatever the report says happened.I actually find the police report pretty believable for the most part, but that doesn't mean we should accept everything in it as a 100% unbiased and objective report of what actually happened.

Aaron, I am not going off of the picture. I am going off the statements of the police and the neighbors who said that Gates was yelling loudly from his porch. Based on the eyewitness testimony, the picture supports the fact that Gates was out of control and yelling at the Cops.

OK, Pat, please. I'm begging you now. I don't like attacking police. I would be much happier if they were right. I really don't care if I am proved wrong; in this case, I'd be excited about it. So please produce these neighbors. An article. A report. Something.If you can't, you need to stop mentioning them as proof.

 

[Pat Patriot]

Aaron and Tim want to believe that Gates wasnt yelling because he said it was impossible for him to yell.

I don't "want" to believe anything. I just think a picture is inconclusive when trying to figure out how loud someone is being so not sure why people continue to refer to it as "proof". If you have a sore throat and get agitated enough where you try to yell, it might look like you're yelling in a picture but I doubt anyone around you would say you were "yelling at the top of your lungs" or whatever the report says happened.I actually find the police report pretty believable for the most part, but that doesn't mean we should accept everything in it as a 100% unbiased and objective report of what actually happened.

Aaron, I am not going off of the picture. I am going off the statements of the police and the neighbors who said that Gates was yelling loudly from his porch. Based on the eyewitness testimony, the picture supports the fact that Gates was out of control and yelling at the Cops.

OK, Pat, please. I'm begging you now. I don't like attacking police. I would be much happier if they were right. I really don't care if I am proved wrong; in this case, I'd be excited about it. So please produce these neighbors. An article. A report. Something.If you can't, you need to stop mentioning them as proof.

Tim, I am telling you what I read. I dont bookmark every article that I read. Did anyone else in this thread not read the same thing? Crowley met the complainant in front of the house and all reports have other neighbors gathering in front of the house. If all of this happened outside the house, it shouldnt really be that debateable.

 

[Da Guru]

Is Gates allergic to peanuts?

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

DW, you do not have it right, at least not according to Professor Gates. At no point did he ever admit refusing to give Crowley an ID. From his story:

All of a sudden, there was a policeman on my porch. And I thought, ‘This is strange.’ So I went over to the front porch still holding the phone, and I said ‘Officer, can I help you?’ And he said, ‘Would you step outside onto the porch.’ And the way he said it, I knew he wasn’t canvassing for the police benevolent association. All the hairs stood up on the back of my neck, and I realized that I was in danger. And I said to him no, out of instinct. I said, ‘No, I will not.’

My lawyers later told me that that was a good move and had I walked out onto the porch he could have arrested me for breaking and entering. He said ‘I’m here to investigate a 911 call for breaking and entering into this house.’ And I said ‘That’s ridiculous because this happens to be my house. And I’m a Harvard professor.’ He says ‘Can you prove that you’re a Harvard professor?’ I said yes, I turned and closed the front door to the kitchen where I’d left my wallet, and I got out my Harvard ID and my Massachusetts driver’s license which includes my address and I handed them to him. And he’s sitting there looking at them.

In your post, you stated:

I bleieve it is admitted even by Gates that his first response was not to obey the what, request? lawful order? but rather to begin by giving the officer grief. His resposne was not to cooperate but to gain control of the situation and have it play out to his individual seense of decorum.

So this is not correct, according to Gates. As I wrote before, you have accepted Crowley's version of events here. If Gates is telling the trth, he gave both his Harvard ID and Drivers License to Crowley. He complied.

Help me. Gates story is not that his first reaction was to comply, produce the items, and then question the officer but was surprise, followed by contempt as expressed in his policeman's benevolence line, and then "No I will not." I'm not going with Crowley solely, though I notice you completely ignore what his training and self interest ina dangeous situation would be, i am going here with gates direct quote. "NO I WILL NOT. " That is refusal. I agree that after this Gates did give over his information, but at this point, this crucial point, what is it we have? I'll answer since you seem unwilling. What we have is a potential felon in a dangerous and exigent circumstance refusing at the very least a request and very liekly a lawful order, and by doing so he is for some as yet undetermined amount of time prolonging a very dangerous situation.I noticed you took no stab at defining what procedure you would like to see here. I think it would be a worthwhile exercise if you undertook it in good faith.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

Aaron, I am not going off of the picture. I am going off the statements of the police and the neighbors who said that Gates was yelling loudly from his porch. Based on the eyewitness testimony, the picture supports the fact that Gates was out of control and yelling at the Cops.

Well, I probably wasn't referring to you there then.There was this post that I responded to initially:

Dude, there are pictures of him obviously yelling at the top of his lungs.

 

[timschochet]

DW, you do not have it right, at least not according to Professor Gates. At no point did he ever admit refusing to give Crowley an ID. From his story:

All of a sudden, there was a policeman on my porch. And I thought, ‘This is strange.’ So I went over to the front porch still holding the phone, and I said ‘Officer, can I help you?’ And he said, ‘Would you step outside onto the porch.’ And the way he said it, I knew he wasn’t canvassing for the police benevolent association. All the hairs stood up on the back of my neck, and I realized that I was in danger. And I said to him no, out of instinct. I said, ‘No, I will not.’

My lawyers later told me that that was a good move and had I walked out onto the porch he could have arrested me for breaking and entering. He said ‘I’m here to investigate a 911 call for breaking and entering into this house.’ And I said ‘That’s ridiculous because this happens to be my house. And I’m a Harvard professor.’ He says ‘Can you prove that you’re a Harvard professor?’ I said yes, I turned and closed the front door to the kitchen where I’d left my wallet, and I got out my Harvard ID and my Massachusetts driver’s license which includes my address and I handed them to him. And he’s sitting there looking at them.

In your post, you stated:

I bleieve it is admitted even by Gates that his first response was not to obey the what, request? lawful order? but rather to begin by giving the officer grief. His resposne was not to cooperate but to gain control of the situation and have it play out to his individual seense of decorum.

So this is not correct, according to Gates. As I wrote before, you have accepted Crowley's version of events here. If Gates is telling the trth, he gave both his Harvard ID and Drivers License to Crowley. He complied.

Help me. Gates story is not that his first reaction was to comply, produce the items, and then question the officer but was surprise, followed by contempt as expressed in his policeman's benevolence line, and then "No I will not." I'm not going with Crowley solely, though I notice you completely ignore what his training and self interest ina dangeous situation would be, i am going here with gates direct quote. "NO I WILL NOT. " That is refusal. I agree that after this Gates did give over his information, but at this point, this crucial point, what is it we have? I'll answer since you seem unwilling. What we have is a potential felon in a dangerous and exigent circumstance refusing at the very least a request and very liekly a lawful order, and by doing so he is for some as yet undetermined amount of time prolonging a very dangerous situation.I noticed you took no stab at defining what procedure you would like to see here. I think it would be a worthwhile exercise if you undertook it in good faith.

You stated that Gates said no when asked for his ID. That's what Crowley says. Gates says he said no when asked to step outside. I think he has a good reason to do so. I admit not being an expert about police procedure, but if Gates is telling the truth, then Crowley should have left upon examining the drivers license. That should have been the end of it. Now if Gates is lying, that's something different. If a policeman comes to your door and, before asking you anything else, asks you to step outside, is it against the law to refuse? I'm asking because I honestly don't know the answer.

 

[Pat Patriot]

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/regional/...ticleid=1187095

Tim, I think this is an interesting article. In it Gates insinuates that he was arresting by a police officer other than Crowley:

I stepped onto the front porch and asked one of his colleagues for his name and badge number. And when I did, the same officer said, “Thank you for accommodating our request. You are under arrest.” And he handcuffed me right there.

Yet Crowley claims to have put the cuffs on Gates:

I warned Gates that he was becoming disorderly. Gates ignored my warning and continued to yell, which drew the attention of both the police officers and citizens, who appeared surprised and alarmed by Gates’ outburst. For a second time I warned Gates to calm down while I withdrew my department issued handcuffs from their carrying case. Gates again ignored my warning and continued to yell at me. It was at this time that I informed Gates that he was under arrest.

Conflicting information. I do not know why the "citizens" at the scene werent interviewed. However, if there were "citizens" at the scene to contradict the police or back Gates, wouldnt they have already surfaced by now? And I do believe there were citizens there because if a number of cruisers showed up in my neighborhood, anybody who was home would be out on the street trying to find out what was going on.

 

[StrikeS2k]

OK, Pat, please. I'm begging you now. I don't like attacking police.

Yes you do, especially in cases that involve black potential suspects.

 

[timschochet]

Tim, I am telling you what I read. I dont bookmark every article that I read. Did anyone else in this thread not read the same thing? Crowley met the complainant in front of the house and all reports have other neighbors gathering in front of the house. If all of this happened outside the house, it shouldnt really be that debateable.

I'm honestly confused about this. Such a big story, if there were witnesses, why doesn't a single one approach the press? Why isn't one of them on Sean Hannity's show, saying "Yeah, he was yelling at the top of his lungs!" Or, conversely, why isn't one on Keith Olbermann's show saying, "He wasn't yelling at all." Do you see my point? Even Gates acknowledges there were witnesses AFTER the arrest took place. But frankly I'm suspicious of their presence beforehand. If there were some story, article, report, I'd believe it. I can't find any.

 

[timschochet]

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/regional/...ticleid=1187095

Tim, I think this is an interesting article. In it Gates insinuates that he was arresting by a police officer other than Crowley:

I stepped onto the front porch and asked one of his colleagues for his name and badge number. And when I did, the same officer said, “Thank you for accommodating our request. You are under arrest.” And he handcuffed me right there.

Yet Crowley claims to have put the cuffs on Gates:

I warned Gates that he was becoming disorderly. Gates ignored my warning and continued to yell, which drew the attention of both the police officers and citizens, who appeared surprised and alarmed by Gates’ outburst. For a second time I warned Gates to calm down while I withdrew my department issued handcuffs from their carrying case. Gates again ignored my warning and continued to yell at me. It was at this time that I informed Gates that he was under arrest.

Conflicting information. I do not know why the "citizens" at the scene werent interviewed. However, if there were "citizens" at the scene to contradict the police or back Gates, wouldnt they have already surfaced by now? And I do believe there were citizens there because if a number of cruisers showed up in my neighborhood, anybody who was home would be out on the street trying to find out what was going on.

You're exactly right, which makes me believe that Gates MUST have been arrested the moment he walked outside, which is what he related. If Crowley had spent time warning him as is claimed, surely this would have been confirmed by the "citizens". Since it wasn't, I don't think the "citizens" really saw anything.

 

[Pat Patriot]

DW, you do not have it right, at least not according to Professor Gates. At no point did he ever admit refusing to give Crowley an ID. From his story:

All of a sudden, there was a policeman on my porch. And I thought, ‘This is strange.’ So I went over to the front porch still holding the phone, and I said ‘Officer, can I help you?’ And he said, ‘Would you step outside onto the porch.’ And the way he said it, I knew he wasn’t canvassing for the police benevolent association. All the hairs stood up on the back of my neck, and I realized that I was in danger. And I said to him no, out of instinct. I said, ‘No, I will not.’

My lawyers later told me that that was a good move and had I walked out onto the porch he could have arrested me for breaking and entering. He said ‘I’m here to investigate a 911 call for breaking and entering into this house.’ And I said ‘That’s ridiculous because this happens to be my house. And I’m a Harvard professor.’ He says ‘Can you prove that you’re a Harvard professor?’ I said yes, I turned and closed the front door to the kitchen where I’d left my wallet, and I got out my Harvard ID and my Massachusetts driver’s license which includes my address and I handed them to him. And he’s sitting there looking at them.

In your post, you stated:

I bleieve it is admitted even by Gates that his first response was not to obey the what, request? lawful order? but rather to begin by giving the officer grief. His resposne was not to cooperate but to gain control of the situation and have it play out to his individual seense of decorum.

So this is not correct, according to Gates. As I wrote before, you have accepted Crowley's version of events here. If Gates is telling the trth, he gave both his Harvard ID and Drivers License to Crowley. He complied.

Help me. Gates story is not that his first reaction was to comply, produce the items, and then question the officer but was surprise, followed by contempt as expressed in his policeman's benevolence line, and then "No I will not." I'm not going with Crowley solely, though I notice you completely ignore what his training and self interest ina dangeous situation would be, i am going here with gates direct quote. "NO I WILL NOT. " That is refusal. I agree that after this Gates did give over his information, but at this point, this crucial point, what is it we have? I'll answer since you seem unwilling. What we have is a potential felon in a dangerous and exigent circumstance refusing at the very least a request and very liekly a lawful order, and by doing so he is for some as yet undetermined amount of time prolonging a very dangerous situation.I noticed you took no stab at defining what procedure you would like to see here. I think it would be a worthwhile exercise if you undertook it in good faith.

You stated that Gates said no when asked for his ID. That's what Crowley says. Gates says he said no when asked to step outside. I think he has a good reason to do so. I admit not being an expert about police procedure, but if Gates is telling the truth, then Crowley should have left upon examining the drivers license. That should have been the end of it. Now if Gates is lying, that's something different. If a policeman comes to your door and, before asking you anything else, asks you to step outside, is it against the law to refuse? I'm asking because I honestly don't know the answer.

If a police officer came and knocked at your door, you do have the right to refuse to go outside. I have done it myself (advice from my Dad). In this circumstance, the officer is not knocking at the door. He is investigating a potential break in and has not established Gates as the owner of the house. Gates does not initially know that so I give Gates the benefit of the doubt. Once the officer says he is investigating a break in, Gates says he complies and gives his Harvard ID and Mass License. That is where I think he is lying. Officer Crowley subsequently called the Harvard Police to verify Gates ownership of the house because Crowley says that Gates only gave him his Harvard ID which doesnt have an address. If Gates gave Crowley both the Harvard ID and Mass License then why did Crowley call the Harvard Police? Gates story doesnt hold water for me.

 

[Pat Patriot]

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/regional/...ticleid=1187095

Tim, I think this is an interesting article. In it Gates insinuates that he was arresting by a police officer other than Crowley:

I stepped onto the front porch and asked one of his colleagues for his name and badge number. And when I did, the same officer said, “Thank you for accommodating our request. You are under arrest.” And he handcuffed me right there.

Yet Crowley claims to have put the cuffs on Gates:

I warned Gates that he was becoming disorderly. Gates ignored my warning and continued to yell, which drew the attention of both the police officers and citizens, who appeared surprised and alarmed by Gates’ outburst. For a second time I warned Gates to calm down while I withdrew my department issued handcuffs from their carrying case. Gates again ignored my warning and continued to yell at me. It was at this time that I informed Gates that he was under arrest.

Conflicting information. I do not know why the "citizens" at the scene werent interviewed. However, if there were "citizens" at the scene to contradict the police or back Gates, wouldnt they have already surfaced by now? And I do believe there were citizens there because if a number of cruisers showed up in my neighborhood, anybody who was home would be out on the street trying to find out what was going on.

You're exactly right, which makes me believe that Gates MUST have been arrested the moment he walked outside, which is what he related. If Crowley had spent time warning him as is claimed, surely this would have been confirmed by the "citizens". Since it wasn't, I don't think the "citizens" really saw anything.

That makes no sense Tim. Then why is Crowley catching so much flack if he wasnt even the officer that arrested Gates? It just seems another part of Gates story where he is loose with the facts and his version doesnt make sense.

 

[timschochet]

OK, Pat, please. I'm begging you now. I don't like attacking police.

Yes you do, especially in cases that involve black potential suspects.

Not even something to joke about Strike. It's true that I am suspicious of some police when it comes to relations with Blacks. But I do not enjoy criticizing the police, ever.The vast majority of policemen and women are absolute heroes. We are all greatly in their debt, for they risk their lives for all of us. I certainly do not share Gigantomachia's attitude. Please don't accuse me of this.

 

[Pat Patriot]

Tim, I am telling you what I read. I dont bookmark every article that I read. Did anyone else in this thread not read the same thing? Crowley met the complainant in front of the house and all reports have other neighbors gathering in front of the house. If all of this happened outside the house, it shouldnt really be that debateable.

I'm honestly confused about this. Such a big story, if there were witnesses, why doesn't a single one approach the press? Why isn't one of them on Sean Hannity's show, saying "Yeah, he was yelling at the top of his lungs!" Or, conversely, why isn't one on Keith Olbermann's show saying, "He wasn't yelling at all." Do you see my point? Even Gates acknowledges there were witnesses AFTER the arrest took place. But frankly I'm suspicious of their presence beforehand. If there were some story, article, report, I'd believe it. I can't find any.

The Press didnt do their job. Even if there were only witnesses after the arrest, wouldnt the press normally be all over these people just to hear what they say? I'm not in Boston anymore. Maybe the local news talked to these folks. They dont even have an interview with the original witness of the "break in". There are limited interviews of the women who called in the "break in" but she wasnt the little old woman who original saw the professor trying to "break into his house". Where are the interviews with her? I dont have an answer for that.

 

[Pat Patriot]

OK, Pat, please. I'm begging you now. I don't like attacking police.

Yes you do, especially in cases that involve black potential suspects.

Not even something to joke about Strike. It's true that I am suspicious of some police when it comes to relations with Blacks. But I do not enjoy criticizing the police, ever.The vast majority of policemen and women are absolute heroes. We are all greatly in their debt, for they risk their lives for all of us. I certainly do not share Gigantomachia's attitude. Please don't accuse me of this.

Lets discuss that. Some police. Why Crowley? Why suspicious of him? Why suspicious of all of his colleagues? Is it because it is Gates who is a friend of the President on the other side?And please dont say because the charges were dropped. I have already told you that I was arrested twice for disorderly conduct and charges were dropped both times.

 

[StrikeS2k]

OK, Pat, please. I'm begging you now. I don't like attacking police.

Yes you do, especially in cases that involve black potential suspects.

Not even something to joke about Strike. It's true that I am suspicious of some police when it comes to relations with Blacks. But I do not enjoy criticizing the police, ever.The vast majority of policemen and women are absolute heroes. We are all greatly in their debt, for they risk their lives for all of us. I certainly do not share Gigantomachia's attitude. Please don't accuse me of this.

Why would you think I'm joking, Timmy? I'm not accusing you of anything. I'm expressing my opinion. Sorry you feel it reflects poorly on you. Provide me a link to ONE thread EVER where you've supported the PoPo. Just one. Then I'll consider changing my opinion.

 

[timschochet]

OK, Pat, please. I'm begging you now. I don't like attacking police.

Yes you do, especially in cases that involve black potential suspects.

Not even something to joke about Strike. It's true that I am suspicious of some police when it comes to relations with Blacks. But I do not enjoy criticizing the police, ever.The vast majority of policemen and women are absolute heroes. We are all greatly in their debt, for they risk their lives for all of us. I certainly do not share Gigantomachia's attitude. Please don't accuse me of this.

Lets discuss that. Some police. Why Crowley? Why suspicious of him? Why suspicious of all of his colleagues? Is it because it is Gates who is a friend of the President on the other side?And please dont say because the charges were dropped. I have already told you that I was arrested twice for disorderly conduct and charges were dropped both times.

Because the arrest didn't make sense to me. You know my reasons. I understand you disagree with them. I have no reason to be suspicious of Crowley in particular; it's the circumstances behind this particular event that bother me.

 

[PizzaDeliveryGuy]

You guys.

 

[timschochet]

OK, Pat, please. I'm begging you now. I don't like attacking police.

Yes you do, especially in cases that involve black potential suspects.

Not even something to joke about Strike. It's true that I am suspicious of some police when it comes to relations with Blacks. But I do not enjoy criticizing the police, ever.The vast majority of policemen and women are absolute heroes. We are all greatly in their debt, for they risk their lives for all of us. I certainly do not share Gigantomachia's attitude. Please don't accuse me of this.

Why would you think I'm joking, Timmy? I'm not accusing you of anything. I'm expressing my opinion. Sorry you feel it reflects poorly on you. Provide me a link to ONE thread EVER where you've supported the PoPo. Just one. Then I'll consider changing my opinion.

How about this one?

 

[Pat Patriot]

OK, Pat, please. I'm begging you now. I don't like attacking police.

Yes you do, especially in cases that involve black potential suspects.

Not even something to joke about Strike. It's true that I am suspicious of some police when it comes to relations with Blacks. But I do not enjoy criticizing the police, ever.The vast majority of policemen and women are absolute heroes. We are all greatly in their debt, for they risk their lives for all of us. I certainly do not share Gigantomachia's attitude. Please don't accuse me of this.

Lets discuss that. Some police. Why Crowley? Why suspicious of him? Why suspicious of all of his colleagues? Is it because it is Gates who is a friend of the President on the other side?And please dont say because the charges were dropped. I have already told you that I was arrested twice for disorderly conduct and charges were dropped both times.

Because the arrest didn't make sense to me. You know my reasons. I understand you disagree with them. I have no reason to be suspicious of Crowley in particular; it's the circumstances behind this particular event that bother me.

Have you ever had a heated encounter with a Police Officer? It doesnt seem so give the Ivory Tower nature of your posts in this thread. The simple facts are that the Police responded to a call about a break in. After assessing the situation, with much difficulty due to the lack of cooperation of Gates, Crowley decides to leave. Gates decides to make a scene and generally act like a jackass. He gets arrested.This same situation, regardless of race, happens a hundred times a day in this country. What about this arrest doesnt make sense to you? Some in this thread have said berating a cop, yelling at a cop, insulting a cop are not against the law. That might be true to the letter of the law, however, those seem to be pretty good ways to get arrested. At least in my experience.Do you really want the judges of this country to clarify the interpretation of the law for police forces across the country by saying Police have to take whatever crap any citizen decides to give them? Its not going to happen because the courts realize that giving the police the leeway to arrest people that are making their job more difficult than it needs to be is a necessary part of the police staying safe.It doesnt seem to me to be too much to be civil to the police when they come to investigate crimes, even if you are black.

 

[StrikeS2k]

OK, Pat, please. I'm begging you now. I don't like attacking police.

Yes you do, especially in cases that involve black potential suspects.

Not even something to joke about Strike. It's true that I am suspicious of some police when it comes to relations with Blacks. But I do not enjoy criticizing the police, ever.The vast majority of policemen and women are absolute heroes. We are all greatly in their debt, for they risk their lives for all of us. I certainly do not share Gigantomachia's attitude. Please don't accuse me of this.

Why would you think I'm joking, Timmy? I'm not accusing you of anything. I'm expressing my opinion. Sorry you feel it reflects poorly on you. Provide me a link to ONE thread EVER where you've supported the PoPo. Just one. Then I'll consider changing my opinion.

How about this one?

Not even something to joke about, Timmy.

 

[Pat Patriot]

OK, Pat, please. I'm begging you now. I don't like attacking police.

Yes you do, especially in cases that involve black potential suspects.

Not even something to joke about Strike. It's true that I am suspicious of some police when it comes to relations with Blacks. But I do not enjoy criticizing the police, ever.The vast majority of policemen and women are absolute heroes. We are all greatly in their debt, for they risk their lives for all of us. I certainly do not share Gigantomachia's attitude. Please don't accuse me of this.

Why would you think I'm joking, Timmy? I'm not accusing you of anything. I'm expressing my opinion. Sorry you feel it reflects poorly on you. Provide me a link to ONE thread EVER where you've supported the PoPo. Just one. Then I'll consider changing my opinion.

How about this one?

Does this one count? I think it was one supportive post until you ultimately turned on Crowley and started calling him a liar and accused him of a coverup. Is that how you support the Police?

 

[Witz]

Tim, I am telling you what I read. I dont bookmark every article that I read. Did anyone else in this thread not read the same thing? Crowley met the complainant in front of the house and all reports have other neighbors gathering in front of the house. If all of this happened outside the house, it shouldnt really be that debateable.

I'm honestly confused about this. Such a big story, if there were witnesses, why doesn't a single one approach the press? Why isn't one of them on Sean Hannity's show, saying "Yeah, he was yelling at the top of his lungs!" Or, conversely, why isn't one on Keith Olbermann's show saying, "He wasn't yelling at all." Do you see my point? Even Gates acknowledges there were witnesses AFTER the arrest took place. But frankly I'm suspicious of their presence beforehand. If there were some story, article, report, I'd believe it. I can't find any.

Bill Carter - the individual who snapped the infamous photo of Gates - noted that Gates was yelling. The Boston Channel - 07/22/2009

Bill Carter, the man who snapped a photograph of Gates being led away in handcuffs, said police officers were calm and that Gates was "slightly out of control" and "agitated" when he was arrested.

"The officers around kind of calmed him down," Carter said. "I heard him yelling -- Mr. Gates yelling. I didn't hear anything that he was saying so I couldn't say that he was belligerent."

 

[snitwitch]

Not sure if it's been posted yet, but the beers for Beer Summit 2009 have been announced. Below are the selections and what I believe they say about the men who picked 'em:

Obama will be drinking Bud Light (either (a) trying for a downmarket, regular joe beer, to appear more like the "common man", or (b) is watching his waistline)

Gates has stated he likes Red Stripes (either (a) he doesn't drink much beer, or (b) is picking a beer that hails from the predominantly black country of Jamaica due to his political-racial beliefs)

Mr. Crowley prefers Blue Moon (trying to appear sophisticated by ordering a microbrew, yet failing to realize the only American witbier worth drinking is Allagash White)

Blue Moon is not a microbrew. It is made by Coors.It is decent enough though.

People that drink Bud Light are people that 99% of the time i do not want to hang out with.

True, I guess I forgot about that.I'll drink bud light if it's offered to me, but I don't buy it. Heck I'll drink any of the above mentioned beers

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Do you really want the judges of this country to clarify the interpretation of the law for police forces across the country by saying Police have to take whatever crap any citizen decides to give them?

They've already done that.

 

[StrikeS2k]

Timmy's 2nd post in this thread, and the first where he expresses his opinion on this incident:

I don't think you can make this statement not being there. I suspect race had everything to do with it, but I can't prove it either. However, there is an overwhelming historical experience to support my suspicion and not yours.

Way to support the PoPo there Timmy.

 

[Pat Patriot]

Do you really want the judges of this country to clarify the interpretation of the law for police forces across the country by saying Police have to take whatever crap any citizen decides to give them?

They've already done that.

I think I have said this previously in this thread but it would seem then that what you are quoting has not resonated or reached the rank and file police officers in Massachusetts. Not even the lead trainer for diversity on the Cambridge Police force.

 

[timschochet]

But there is another side to this story that also is becoming very angry- at Obama. These are the millions of white middle class and blue collars who pay their bills, look upon the police force as their protectors and friends, and believe in law and order and not being rude to authority. Many of these fine Americans are Democrats and they voted for Obama. I don't think they're going to take too kindly to him saying "the police behaved stupidly" even if they did. They believe, rightfully so, that police are mistreated, especially by liberals, and not regarded as the heroes they really are. As these white Americans face increasingly more difficult economic conditions, I think they will become more and more resentful and angry at "liberal elites" who tell them that they are racist, the police are racist, etc.

I had to look a little ways to find this post.

 

[TexanFan02]

Tim, I am telling you what I read. I dont bookmark every article that I read. Did anyone else in this thread not read the same thing? Crowley met the complainant in front of the house and all reports have other neighbors gathering in front of the house. If all of this happened outside the house, it shouldnt really be that debateable.

I'm honestly confused about this. Such a big story, if there were witnesses, why doesn't a single one approach the press? Why isn't one of them on Sean Hannity's show, saying "Yeah, he was yelling at the top of his lungs!" Or, conversely, why isn't one on Keith Olbermann's show saying, "He wasn't yelling at all." Do you see my point? Even Gates acknowledges there were witnesses AFTER the arrest took place. But frankly I'm suspicious of their presence beforehand. If there were some story, article, report, I'd believe it. I can't find any.

Bill Carter - the individual who snapped the infamous photo of Gates - noted that Gates was yelling. The Boston Channel - 07/22/2009

Bill Carter, the man who snapped a photograph of Gates being led away in handcuffs, said police officers were calm and that Gates was "slightly out of control" and "agitated" when he was arrested.

"The officers around kind of calmed him down," Carter said. "I heard him yelling -- Mr. Gates yelling. I didn't hear anything that he was saying so I couldn't say that he was belligerent."

Thought he had a bronchial inflammation and couldn't yell?Oops.