How are the Cincinnati Bengals not a better franchise? (1 Viewer)

[Fensalk]

I took the time recently to break down the drafts of every team under their current talent evaluators. The Bengals in recent years have done an excellent job of acquiring talent.

2010

First round: TE Jermaine Gresham - just set a team rookie record for receptions.

Second Round: DE Carlos Dunlap - 9.5 sacks in his rookie season, another rookie team record.

Third Round: WR Jordan Shipley - productive in his rookie season, especially as a third round pick.

2009:

Second Round: LB Rey Maualuga - very productive player.

Third Round: DE/LB Michael Johnson - productive for the third round.

2008:

First round: LB Keith Rivers - very productive player, got the one vote for rookie of the year that didn't go to Jerrod Mayo.

Third round: DT Pat Sims - very productive for a third round pick.

2007:

First round: CB Leon Hall - productive CB and second team all-pro in 2009.

Seventh round: S Chinedum Ndukwe - crazy productive pick for the seventh round.

2006:

First round: CB Johnathan Joseph - very productive CB.

Second round: OT Andrew Whitworth - decent player.

Fourth Round: DT Domata Peko - very productive lineman.

To put this in perspective, the Bengals have really done an excellent job of acquiring talent via the draft compared to many other NFL teams. Look at the defense. They've got a nice pass rusher, some nice defensive linemen, two nice linebackers, a pair of nice corners and they even pulled a quality safety out of their butt in round 7 in the last 4 years. To me this should be a top defense by now. This might actually be the best job of drafting defense of any team in the NFL over this period.

Why are the Bengals so horrible? Is it the coaching?

 

[Godsbrother]

Why are the Bengals so horrible? Is it the coaching?

It all starts with the ownership and front office.

 

[Fensalk]

Why are the Bengals so horrible? Is it the coaching?

It all starts with the ownership and front office.

That makes no sense. The front office is loading this team up with talent over the past 4 years. Maybe the Bengals were woeful in the past but they've clearly had a run of quality drafts and talent acquisition as of late.

 

[Fensalk]

Forget the uniform. I'm going to give you a defense with Carlos Dunlap creating pressure on the QB, Peko and Sims clogging up the running lanes, Maualuga and Rivers roaming around at LB, and then Hall, Joseph and Ndukwe blanketing the secondary. And this results in a defense that is ranked near the bottom of the league? How is that possible? The front office has given the coaches so much.

 

[JohnnyU]

Mike Brown /thread

 

[Fensalk]

Mike Brown has a horrible reputation. But the current problems clearly are not the fault of Mike Brown.

 

[Godsbrother]

Why are the Bengals so horrible? Is it the coaching?

It all starts with the ownership and front office.

That makes no sense. The front office is loading this team up with talent over the past 4 years. Maybe the Bengals were woeful in the past but they've clearly had a run of quality drafts and talent acquisition as of late.

I don't agree with the notion that the Bengals are all that talented but regardless:If the fault is the coaches then the F.O. hired the wrong coachesIf the fault is the players then the F.O. drafted/signed the wrong players

 

[Fensalk]

Last year, they were ranked 6th on defense. That makes a lot more sense to me. But the fall to 24th this year doesn't make any. Maybe we need to really stop looking at the Bengals as a joke franchise. 2010 might have simply been an aberration. The modern Bengals draft well and improve the talent level of their roster every year.

 

[trader jake]

Do the Bengals have first class ______?

Fill in the blank and answer the question.

Owner

GM

head coach

scouts

Stadium

facilities

etc

 

[jswalker1981]

Last year, they were ranked 6th on defense. That makes a lot more sense to me. But the fall to 24th this year doesn't make any. Maybe we need to really stop looking at the Bengals as a joke franchise. 2010 might have simply been an aberration. The modern Bengals draft well and improve the talent level of their roster every year.

But the problem is that the owner is so cheap, he won't spend the money to keep that talent. He will do just enough to put butts in the seats, and that's it. He is one of the owners that would love to not have a salary cap, because than there wouldn't be a salary floor.

 

[Fensalk]

Try out this exercise. Take the Bengals last 4 drafts, and stack them up with any team from the AFC West or AFC South. You'll quickly realize that the Bengals draft better than any of them.

 

[Fensalk]

Last year, they were ranked 6th on defense. That makes a lot more sense to me. But the fall to 24th this year doesn't make any. Maybe we need to really stop looking at the Bengals as a joke franchise. 2010 might have simply been an aberration. The modern Bengals draft well and improve the talent level of their roster every year.

But the problem is that the owner is so cheap, he won't spend the money to keep that talent. He will do just enough to put butts in the seats, and that's it. He is one of the owners that would love to not have a salary cap, because than there wouldn't be a salary floor.

I look at the Bengals and see a team that did great drafting defense, and then went the extra mile to sign Terrell Owens to try to help the offense.

 

[Tackling Dummies]

Do the Bengals have first class ______?Fill in the blank and answer the question.OwnerGMhead coachscoutsStadiumfacilitiesetc

Obviously the OP is discounting that Mike Brown is the cause, but this lays it out nice and simple. Lastly, cherry picking the previous drafts are convenient, but filling out a roster comes in so many forms aside from the draft.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

rubber armed QB and diva WRs are not a winning formula

The D seemd to be pretty banged up this past year. Bengals won that division last year in a sweep with a healthy D

 

[cheese]

Why are the Bengals so horrible? Is it the coaching?

It all starts with the ownership and front office.

That makes no sense. The front office is loading this team up with talent over the past 4 years. Maybe the Bengals were woeful in the past but they've clearly had a run of quality drafts and talent acquisition as of late.

I don't agree with the notion that the Bengals are all that talented but regardless:If the fault is the coaches then the F.O. hired the wrong coaches

If the fault is the players then the F.O. drafted/signed the wrong players

Agreed. I get that Rivers and Maualuga played at USC so people have heard of them, but seriously they're not very good. Ndukwe is pretty much a package-specific player who is good at blitzing at this point. Pat Sims? Come on.

Do the Bengals have first class ______?

Fill in the blank and answer the question.

Owner

GM

head coach

scouts

Stadium

facilities

etc

I would say yes to stadium and facilities. To more direcly answer the OP... you're saying we've drafted well in the last 5-10 years and we've won 2 division titles in probably the hardest division in football in that period. That doesn't make them great, but they've been competitive over that time period. I think you're overestimating the players on that list and underestimating the small amount of success those players have already had.

 

[trader jake]

Do the Bengals have first class ______?Fill in the blank and answer the question.OwnerGMhead coachscoutsStadiumfacilitiesetc

I would say yes to stadium and facilities. To more direcly answer the OP... you're saying we've drafted well in the last 5-10 years and we've won 2 division titles in probably the hardest division in football in that period. That doesn't make them great, but they've been competitive over that time period. I think you're overestimating the players on that list and underestimating the small amount of success those players have already had.

Are you including everything in "facilities"? For instance indoor and outdoor practice facilities, weight room, plane, travel arrangements, training staff, etc?I don't know the answer. Over the years I've been led to believe these are all sub-par...maybe that's changed. ??

 

[QuizGuy66]

Why are the Bengals so horrible? Is it the coaching?

It all starts with the ownership and front office.

Which are essentially one and the same. -QG

 

[QuizGuy66]

Mike Brown has a horrible reputation. But the current problems clearly are not the fault of Mike Brown.

Question - who is your team Fensalk? Would you trade your owner for Mike Brown?-QG

 

[5-ish Finkle]

Agreed. I get that Rivers and Maualuga played at USC so people have heard of them, but seriously they're not very good. Ndukwe is pretty much a package-specific player who is good at blitzing at this point. Pat Sims? Come on.

This.Referring to Rey Maualuga as "very productive" is a stretch of Armstrong-ian proportions. Keith Rivers is known more for getting his grill busted than he is for making plays. Ndukwe, who I actually like, is practically a LB playing S. Yeah, he's a great tackler....that's about it. No big plays. Pat Sims? I think I have more career NFL big plays than that guy.

Mike Brown

/threadOne could try and deflect that Brown and his F.O. aren't the root cause here, but they'd be wrong. For the sake of the argument, let's allow that the Bengals are as packed with talent as is being opined in the original post. So what's the cause then? Coaching? Guess who is in charge of overseeing/acquiring that. Bringing in players, regardless of how talented, that don't mesh well with currently implemented systems/schemes? Again, who's in charge of overseeing that aspect?

Take the Bengals last 4 drafts, and stack them up with any team from the AFC West or AFC South. You'll quickly realize that the Bengals draft better than any of them.

Well, I guess here's our answer. The Bengals need to move to the AFC West.

 

[QuizGuy66]

Do the Bengals have first class ______?Fill in the blank and answer the question.OwnerGMhead coachscoutsStadiumfacilitiesetc

I would say yes to stadium and facilities. To more direcly answer the OP... you're saying we've drafted well in the last 5-10 years and we've won 2 division titles in probably the hardest division in football in that period. That doesn't make them great, but they've been competitive over that time period. I think you're overestimating the players on that list and underestimating the small amount of success those players have already had.

Are you including everything in "facilities"? For instance indoor and outdoor practice facilities, weight room, plane, travel arrangements, training staff, etc?I don't know the answer. Over the years I've been led to believe these are all sub-par...maybe that's changed. ??

In terms of outdoor practice facilities - anything would've been better than Spinney Field but largely they are on far in terms of the outdoor facilities.The owner is too cheap, however, to have an indoor practice facility (the northernmost team to do so). It's taken 8 years for the head coach to finally get to choose his own offensive coordinator.The owner is the GM and is cheap. Almost any first round pick we get is bound to be a hold-out, this generally sets their progress back a year. The irony is that he doesn't seem to realize that losing means higher draft picks means more $ out of his pocket. The free agents that come often have to be overpaid to do sne hopeful sign is that there will be new team physicians next year. Something like 19% of Bengals players surveyed gave the team's medical staff a passing grade - the next worst such percentage was Arizona - with a 50% satisfaction rate. Maybe Mike Brown finally realized (or was made to realize by Marvin) that such an approach also is penny-wise but pound foolish. Witness the Antonio Bryant debacle.I think the extremely-limited scouting department hurts in multiple ways. Less eyes on a player means that there's less debate on players - a stronger organization would seek more input while having a good football mind in the GM position to sort those opinions out. Good teams (the Patriots are a prime example) are proactive in the draft - they identify players that fit what they want to do and maneuver their draft picks in such a way that they go get them. The Bengals almost never do this (I'd venture to guess they've made the lowest number of draft-pick trades in the last 10 years and probably have the most original picks of any team in the last 10 years. Just because a coach can bring talent out of players doesn't mean they are the best scout either. Someone that compares more players (i.e. a full-time scout) gets insight the coaches don't. Good scouts know how to work within the system/style the team management wants. The hidden effect of having such coach-dependent scouting is that there's that much less time for the staff to be able to game-plan. Break down the next season's opponents. Install new features to the offense or defense. It has a drag on all of it. The development of the talent they obtain is hurt by this as well IMO.Culture starts from the very top. I'm not sure if Mike Brown has ever uttered the words "Super Bowl". The air force slogan is not "Aim Middle". But that's the sense that Mike Brown gives off. I'm a pro-Marvin guy, mainly because the little change to the culture that has occurred over the last 8 years is directly attributable to him and these latest moves are due in part to pressure he exerted on Brown. It's more impressive than people realize. Mike Brown crushes souls. **** LeBeau is a Hall-of-Famer for his play and for his defensive coordinating but we was dog meat as a head coach with the Bengals. I think that says more about the Front Office than it does LeBeau. If Tom Coughlin were the choice over Marvin 8 years ago I think things would've been worse (free agents don't like to come here in general and at that time Coughlin was even more of a hard case and so I think it would've played differently than his Giants experience has been).I best our re-sign percentage (that is what our guys do once they are free to leave) has to be the worst (or nearly the worst) in the league. It's true that some guys don't fare better elsewhere (see Housh) but the point is that they don't see the merit in staying and sticking it out. For the ones that stay, like Willie Anderson who stayed until almost the end of his career, the nightmares must be unbearable.Those are the thoughts off the top of my head.-QG

 

[cheese]

Do the Bengals have first class ______?Fill in the blank and answer the question.OwnerGMhead coachscoutsStadiumfacilitiesetc

I would say yes to stadium and facilities. To more direcly answer the OP... you're saying we've drafted well in the last 5-10 years and we've won 2 division titles in probably the hardest division in football in that period. That doesn't make them great, but they've been competitive over that time period. I think you're overestimating the players on that list and underestimating the small amount of success those players have already had.

Are you including everything in "facilities"? For instance indoor and outdoor practice facilities, weight room, plane, travel arrangements, training staff, etc?I don't know the answer. Over the years I've been led to believe these are all sub-par...maybe that's changed. ??

When I think of facilities, I think of the weight/training room and the practice facilitity. Granted I've only seen the facilities of one other NFL team (Cardinals) to compare them, but they seem very nice to me. To be honest, I didn't consider indoor facitilies only because it doesn't even exist. This was stupid on my part. I'm not sure why you'd consider the staff a part of facilities, but we're definitely hurting there as QG mentioned. Factor those things in and you're probably ok in saying that our facilities are nothing special.

 

[David Yudkin]

Last year, the Bengals statistically were about a .500 team. They were about even in points scored/allowed, yardage, and turnovers. But they had an easy schedule and thus were able to eke out 10 wins. They faced 3 teams with 10 wins.

This year, they faced a killer schedlule and the results reflected that. They faced ten teams with 10 or more wins. If they get an easier schedule next year, I suspect their win total will go up quite a bit even if they don't do anything all that different.

 

[Kirby]

2010First round: TE Jermaine Gresham - just set a team rookie record for receptions.Second Round: DE Carlos Dunlap - 9.5 sacks in his rookie season, another rookie team record.Third Round: WR Jordan Shipley - productive in his rookie season, especially as a third round pick.

Fourth Round: Geno Atkins - led the team with 19 quarterback pressures, second with three sacks.

 

[Sheriff66]

Look no further than the joke ownership and front office, then sprinkle in some self centered Ocho Stinko and T.O., and Palmer is underwhelming

 

[cvnpoka]

Last year, the Bengals statistically were about a .500 team. They were about even in points scored/allowed, yardage, and turnovers. But they had an easy schedule and thus were able to eke out 10 wins. They faced 3 teams with 10 wins.This year, they faced a killer schedlule and the results reflected that. They faced ten teams with 10 or more wins. If they get an easier schedule next year, I suspect their win total will go up quite a bit even if they don't do anything all that different.

yup. they werent a much worse team this year, just the schedule was immensely tougher, and they werent as lucky in close games. in 2009, they beat the steelers on a last second td, this year, they drove to the 10 and missed 4 chances to win. a similar dichotomy occurred with the ravens in week 17, where carson fumbled an ez first down (no one touched him) at the ravens ~29 (with like 1:50 left.) the bengals still got the ball back and drove all the way to the ravens 2 yard line but missed 3 opps to score as time expired. compare to last year when reche caldwell converted game winning td with 22s left.

 

[Fensalk]

The thing I'm looking at is that for most teams in the NFL, they are lucky to scrabble together 3 or 4 productive players out of their last 4 drafts. The Bengals can build pretty much an entire defense and some offensive pieces. Their 2010 draft might have been their best one yet. Its really amazing when you actually sit down and compare drafts of different teams, to see just how much the Bengals stand out as of late.

I get the schedule was tougher, but how do they add all those pieces out of the 2010 draft and only win 4 games? How would you grade the Bengals 2010 draft? I'd give them an A.

I forgot to mention the Bengals added Geno Atkins. Roderick Muckelroy is also probably going to be a productive LB out of their 2010 draft. They are looking at having added 5 players that are going to contribute in major ways to the club out of the 2010 draft. How many other teams can say that?

 

[Fensalk]

Grading the Bengals' 2010 draft

WRITTEN BY DAVE BIDDLE | 17 DECEMBER 2010

This season as been a disaster, but one of the few bright spots of 2010 for the Bengals was their draft in April. Let’s take a closer look:

First round, tight end Jermaine Gresham: I wanted Dez Bryant – and still think he’s going to be a star in the NFL – but there is no question Gresham is a very-exciting talent at the TE position. But he’s not just living on potential; he’s been productive as a rookie with 47 receptions for 409 yards (8.7 yards per catch) and three touchdowns. He is without a doubt the franchise’s best tight end since Rodney Holman. Gresham is a freakish athlete (6-foot-5, 261 pounds) with great hands and he’s only going to get better with time. If he’s able to stay healthy, we’ll be talking about one of the best tight ends in the NFL in a few years.

Second round, defensive end Carlos Dunlap: He was considered a possible steal when the Bengals nabbed him and he’s more-than lived up to the hype. Dunlap leads the team by far with five sacks (no one else has more than two) and is a physical force at his size of 6-foot-6, 277 pounds. Dunlap is really starting to come on now at the end of his rookie season and the future appears glaring bright for him. In addition, the future status of Antwan Odom is up in the air, and the other starting defensive end – Robert Geathers – has also seen his production fall off. Dunlap is a likely starter for the foreseeable future. (And I’d like to see Michael Johnson paired with him as the other starting DE – at least on passing downs. Jonathan Fanene – who has been hurt this season – might also be a starting DE next year.)

Third round, wide receiver Jordan Shipley: The Bengals hit this one out of the park. I thought Shipley might be a sneaky-good pick, but I didn’t think he would be nearly this good. Through 13 games, he has 47 receptions for 569 yards (12.1 ypc) and two touchdowns. He’s fearless going over the middle (despite a hit earlier in the season against the Browns that might make other receivers gunshy), does a great job getting open and catches nearly everything thrown in his direction. Plus, he can get yards-after-catch. Add it all up, and the Bengals found a keeper here in the third round with the 5-foot-11, 193-pounder. He is the ideal NFL slot receiver.

Third round, cornerback Brandon Ghee: I thought this was a good pick at the time because Ghee was considered the top corner left on the board and the Bengals needed depth at the position behind starters Johnathan Joseph and Leon Hall. However, Ghee has been banged up for most of the season (he’s on injured reserve and won’t play the final three games) and hasn’t been able to show what he can do. Cincinnati landed the 6-foot, 192-pound Wake Forest product with a compensatory pick and if he’s going to stick with the Bengals he’ll need to impress the new coaching staff during the offseason and in camp next year.

Fourth round, defensive tackle Geno Atkins: Man I love this kid. It’s rare to find good pass-rushers from the DT position, but Akins has the potential to be a great one. He just has a knack for beating his man at the line of scrimmage and getting to the quarterback. It’s not showing up in the stat-book this season (he has 1.5 sacks) but there have been several occasions in which he’s forced an incomplete pass because he drilled the QB just as he was throwing the ball. And he’s led to other players (like Dunlap) getting sacks because Atkins was able to flush the quarterback out of the pocket. Atkins is a long-term asset for sure and was a steal this late in the proceedings. The knock on him is his size (6-1, 293) but he plays bigger than that and has tremendous burst and quickness. And it must be repeated: You just don’t see defensive tackles with those kind of pass-rush moves.

Fourth round, linebacker Roderick Muckelroy: He was a productive player at Texas and this appears to be a solid pick in retrospect. Nothing spectacular and Muckelroy might never be a starter at this level, but he looks like a decent special teams guy and backup LB. The Bengals landed him with their second compensatory pick of the ’10 draft and he helps give the roster quality depth at the bottom. Muckelroy doesn’t have great speed, but he’s not slow, either. And he brings nice side to the gridiron at 6-2, 246.

Other draft picks: The Bengals’ other picks in the 2010 draft were: OL Otis Hudson (fifth round), WR Dez Briscoe (sixth) and center Reggie Stephens (seventh). Only Stephens was able to make the active roster.

Grade: We won’t know the true grade of the Bengals’ 2010 draft for another 2-3 years. But as it stands right now, I give the team a solid A-. They did good with their top picks in Gresham and Dunlap, and also found some nice steals with Shipley and Atkins. All four of those guys should be impact players for the next several years and if you get that much quality out of one draft, you did well.

 

[Black Box]

Without looking it up, I'd guess that the Steelers (almost for certain) and the Ravens (less certain) still out-drafted the Bengals.

 

[Boston]

Young talent can be overrated...every franchise needs it but if it's not complementing a solid veteran nucleus with leadership skills it's usually not going to translate to wins and losses...

 

[TheWheel]

It has a lot to do with the Steelers and Ravens. It's hard to compete in a division like that especially with the Steelers. That and whimsical coaching. RUN THE BALL!

 

[Dr. Octopus]

The thing I'm looking at is that for most teams in the NFL, they are lucky to scrabble together 3 or 4 productive players out of their last 4 drafts.

This doesn't seem like a very true statement - maybe for some really sorry teams, but not for "most" teams.

 

[Fensalk]

The thing I'm looking at is that for most teams in the NFL, they are lucky to scrabble together 3 or 4 productive players out of their last 4 drafts.

This doesn't seem like a very true statement - maybe for some really sorry teams, but not for "most" teams.

You should take a look at some of the awful drafts some teams have had lately.

 

[chidoy]

Mike Brown /thread

/thread

 

[Orange Crush]

The thing I'm looking at is that for most teams in the NFL, they are lucky to scrabble together 3 or 4 productive players out of their last 4 drafts.

This doesn't seem like a very true statement - maybe for some really sorry teams, but not for "most" teams.

You should take a look at some of the awful drafts some teams have had lately.

Very true. And yet, because that's true, you need to expand that analysis to take a look at how the rest of the Bengals squad was acquired. Are there a lot of veteran players who were drafted by the Bengals and re-signed (like Palmer and Ocho Cinco/Johnson)? Or are there a lot of free agents? Are there a lot of undrafted free agents who somehow made the roster? Then compare talent-wise, those players against others at their position in the NFL.I haven't done the analysis, but here's my guess -- a lot of those rookies you mentioned are starting not because they'd start on most teams but because rookie contracts are cheap and the Bengals front office doesn't want to pay the money to bring in someone of high enough value to compete for that starting spot. While the Bengals try to trumpet their free agent signings (Terrell Owens in 2010, Laverneus Coles, Cedric Benson, and S Roy Williams in 2009), the reality is that they sign aging veterans whose best days (and contract values) are behind them. The Owens signing could legitimately be argued as an aggressive move for the team, trying to improve their passing game and take a competitive step forward following their 2009 division title, but its easy to see how delusional that was in hindsight.This is a cheap team. Ownership isn't independently wealthy apart from the team, and because of that the financial bottom line is far more important to them than on-field competitiveness. There are hundreds of stories out there about how cheap Mike Brown is. That mentality permeates the front office and their roster decisions.

 

[domvin]

Last year, the Bengals statistically were about a .500 team. They were about even in points scored/allowed, yardage, and turnovers. But they had an easy schedule and thus were able to eke out 10 wins. They faced 3 teams with 10 wins.This year, they faced a killer schedlule and the results reflected that. They faced ten teams with 10 or more wins. If they get an easier schedule next year, I suspect their win total will go up quite a bit even if they don't do anything all that different.

This is actually pretty valid. Their schedule was a cakewalk the first 9 games of 2009. They finished up 2-5 down the stretch against decent teams. They lost to the raiders, chargers, vikings, jets to round out the season.Every team goes on cycles, but this is an organization that reached 200 L's quicker than any other organization.2 Winning seasons in 20 years.The OP is citing that the Bengals have had some great drafts. Actually, they have been poor.Passed on Steven Jackson, traded down, and took Chris PerryDrafted Jerome Simpson ahead of Desean JacksonDrafted Andre Smith with a top franchise pick.Drafted Gresham when Dez Bryant fell into their lapGo back even further-They turned down the Saints deal for all their draft picks, so the Saints could take Ricky Williams. Instead, the Bengals selected-Akili Smith. They could have drafted Champ Bailey, and had an extra pick in each round. Jimmy Johnson would have pounced on that deal.They got zero out of Perry, and I think Andre Smith has had 5 starts in maybe 2 years. There were giant RED Flapjack warnings about the POS that Andre Smith is, and they took him with the 4th pick(maybe 6th pick) overall.Constant weight problems in college lead to weight problems in the NFL.It's a myriad of things.....but the fact that they do not have a legit front office leads to a lot of their problems.Who manages the salary cap? Mike Brown. Who runs their draft-Mike Brown.I live in Cincy-I'd be OK if they moved and we received a new team, with new ownership 5 years down the road.

 

[David Yudkin]

The OP is citing that the Bengals have had some great drafts. Actually, they have been poor.Passed on Steven Jackson, traded down, and took Chris PerryDrafted Jerome Simpson ahead of Desean JacksonDrafted Gresham when Dez Bryant fell into their lap

I personally can't hold teams responsible for who they didn't take. If that were the case, all teams would be guilty. If they end up with a lemon, ok, but saying they missed on what turned out to be a good player happens to every team.Or as it was described here the other day in an article about drafting, the Pats took Tom Brady in the 6th round, and while some will tip their caps to the Pats, ALL the franchises passed on him 5 times including New England.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

The Bengals had one of the toughest scheds in the league and underperformed in the W/L column compared to what you'd expect on their point differential. They'll bounce back to .500 or so next year with the NFC-W on the schedule and the typical regression to the mean.

As for Simpson and Gresham... let's revisit after 2011.

 

[cheese]

Grading the Bengals' 2010 draft

WRITTEN BY DAVE BIDDLE | 17 DECEMBER 2010

This season as been a disaster, but one of the few bright spots of 2010 for the Bengals was their draft in April. Let’s take a closer look:

First round, tight end Jermaine Gresham: I wanted Dez Bryant – and still think he’s going to be a star in the NFL – but there is no question Gresham is a very-exciting talent at the TE position. But he’s not just living on potential; he’s been productive as a rookie with 47 receptions for 409 yards (8.7 yards per catch) and three touchdowns. He is without a doubt the franchise’s best tight end since Rodney Holman. Gresham is a freakish athlete (6-foot-5, 261 pounds) with great hands and he’s only going to get better with time. If he’s able to stay healthy, we’ll be talking about one of the best tight ends in the NFL in a few years.

Second round, defensive end Carlos Dunlap: He was considered a possible steal when the Bengals nabbed him and he’s more-than lived up to the hype. Dunlap leads the team by far with five sacks (no one else has more than two) and is a physical force at his size of 6-foot-6, 277 pounds. Dunlap is really starting to come on now at the end of his rookie season and the future appears glaring bright for him. In addition, the future status of Antwan Odom is up in the air, and the other starting defensive end – Robert Geathers – has also seen his production fall off. Dunlap is a likely starter for the foreseeable future. (And I’d like to see Michael Johnson paired with him as the other starting DE – at least on passing downs. Jonathan Fanene – who has been hurt this season – might also be a starting DE next year.)

Third round, wide receiver Jordan Shipley: The Bengals hit this one out of the park. I thought Shipley might be a sneaky-good pick, but I didn’t think he would be nearly this good. Through 13 games, he has 47 receptions for 569 yards (12.1 ypc) and two touchdowns. He’s fearless going over the middle (despite a hit earlier in the season against the Browns that might make other receivers gunshy), does a great job getting open and catches nearly everything thrown in his direction. Plus, he can get yards-after-catch. Add it all up, and the Bengals found a keeper here in the third round with the 5-foot-11, 193-pounder. He is the ideal NFL slot receiver.

Third round, cornerback Brandon Ghee: I thought this was a good pick at the time because Ghee was considered the top corner left on the board and the Bengals needed depth at the position behind starters Johnathan Joseph and Leon Hall. However, Ghee has been banged up for most of the season (he’s on injured reserve and won’t play the final three games) and hasn’t been able to show what he can do. Cincinnati landed the 6-foot, 192-pound Wake Forest product with a compensatory pick and if he’s going to stick with the Bengals he’ll need to impress the new coaching staff during the offseason and in camp next year.

Fourth round, defensive tackle Geno Atkins: Man I love this kid. It’s rare to find good pass-rushers from the DT position, but Akins has the potential to be a great one. He just has a knack for beating his man at the line of scrimmage and getting to the quarterback. It’s not showing up in the stat-book this season (he has 1.5 sacks) but there have been several occasions in which he’s forced an incomplete pass because he drilled the QB just as he was throwing the ball. And he’s led to other players (like Dunlap) getting sacks because Atkins was able to flush the quarterback out of the pocket. Atkins is a long-term asset for sure and was a steal this late in the proceedings. The knock on him is his size (6-1, 293) but he plays bigger than that and has tremendous burst and quickness. And it must be repeated: You just don’t see defensive tackles with those kind of pass-rush moves.

Fourth round, linebacker Roderick Muckelroy: He was a productive player at Texas and this appears to be a solid pick in retrospect. Nothing spectacular and Muckelroy might never be a starter at this level, but he looks like a decent special teams guy and backup LB. The Bengals landed him with their second compensatory pick of the ’10 draft and he helps give the roster quality depth at the bottom. Muckelroy doesn’t have great speed, but he’s not slow, either. And he brings nice side to the gridiron at 6-2, 246.

Other draft picks: The Bengals’ other picks in the 2010 draft were: OL Otis Hudson (fifth round), WR Dez Briscoe (sixth) and center Reggie Stephens (seventh). Only Stephens was able to make the active roster.

Grade: We won’t know the true grade of the Bengals’ 2010 draft for another 2-3 years. But as it stands right now, I give the team a solid A-. They did good with their top picks in Gresham and Dunlap, and also found some nice steals with Shipley and Atkins. All four of those guys should be impact players for the next several years and if you get that much quality out of one draft, you did well.

I think we can all agree that the 2010 draft looks really good right now. It takes more than 10 months (if ever) for one really good draft to turn around a franchise. Im not as convinced as others that this team was half the team the 2009 team was. Sure, they played a ton of good offenses, but our defense was helpless against pretty much everybody. And I dont care about scoring diff or anything else, the way the 2009 team ran the ball and defended the pass, they won a lot of those 10 games pretty comfortably.

 

[slayer666]

Mike Brown /thread

This and it's a ##### being in the same division as Pittsburgh and Baltimore.

 

[Rustoleum]

I put a lot of fault on coaching/ownership this year, but I think the OP is also over-estimating some of the talent:

It was visibly evident in the preseason that Dunlap and Atkins were the two most productive D-linemen, at least in terms of getting to the QB, yet until every stubbed-toe started landing guys on IR near the end of the season, they languished behind the largely overrated veterans, who got ZERO pressure on the QB.

To be truly productive, I think Mauluaga needs to be in the middle.

Keith Rivers looks like a less-productive Brian Simmons to me.

Have they ever decided where they are putting Michael Johnson yet? I think he produces better at end rather than at LB, regardless of size, yet they keep trying to change guy's positions (David Pollack).

Ndukwe can be invaluable as a backup, but he isn't a starting safety on a "good" defense.

Between guys who should be on the field but aren't, guys in the "wrong" positions, and guys who should be good but aren't. I'm surprised it wasn't worse.

Goes to show how much having two decent corners can help.

 

[domvin]

The OP is citing that the Bengals have had some great drafts. Actually, they have been poor.Passed on Steven Jackson, traded down, and took Chris PerryDrafted Jerome Simpson ahead of Desean JacksonDrafted Gresham when Dez Bryant fell into their lap

I personally can't hold teams responsible for who they didn't take. If that were the case, all teams would be guilty. If they end up with a lemon, ok, but saying they missed on what turned out to be a good player happens to every team.Or as it was described here the other day in an article about drafting, the Pats took Tom Brady in the 6th round, and while some will tip their caps to the Pats, ALL the franchises passed on him 5 times including New England.

I agree to a certain extent-I cited the three above specifically, and here's why-Jackson was head and shoulders above Julius Jones and Chris Perry at the time. Jackson fell into their lap.Jerome Simpson as a player out of Western Carolina, would have been a guy you could have waited on. Desean was running a blistering 40 at his Pro day, and training with Jerry Rice. Don't overdraft a player.Gresham: I think Gresham will be a fine TE, but when a transcendant talent at wr falls into your lap, take the wr. TE's are easier to find than stud wrs.My 2 cents for what it is worth

 

[Bracie Smathers]

I took the time recently to break down the drafts of every team under their current talent evaluators. The Bengals in recent years have done an excellent job of acquiring talent.... To put this in perspective, the Bengals have really done an excellent job of acquiring talent via the draft compared to many other NFL teams. ...Why are the Bengals so horrible? Is it the coaching?

A few people have mentioned culture and AFCN competition, but so far no one has mentioned QB play and that is something to consider. Carson seems to have slipped and that can pull down an entire team as much as stellar QB play can elevate an entire team but when a guy isn't performing others are loathe to bring it up publically or it will seem the team or the coaches have lost faith and that is why teams will stick with guys who either don't have it or have lost it. So I think of the talent you do have to bring up Carson Palmer's performance as of late.Others have zeroed in on Mike Brown but as you corectly point out he has been able to build a scouting department that aquires talent but I would go back to culture to see why the talent hasn't gelled.Many of the 'talented' players that the Bengals have gotten in the draft are not the best citizens. The Bengals have a lengthy history of aquiring bad charector guys so if/when things go wrong the locker room self destructs.Just look at the Ocho-TO show, or to Chirs Henry or Ray M. and a few others on the draft list.Mike Brown will take chances on shaky charector guys, he'll get talent but their is a cost of getting guys whose off-field issues somehow become on-field distractions. I first look at the QB but also at the culture of the team when asking why the Bengals haven't produced up to their talent level.

 

[Fensalk]

Overall I think the Bengals are a very interesting franchise. They seem to be drafting very, very well in recent years, but it hasn't come together yet. I wonder if at some point in the next 5 years, everything will come together just perfect, they will have a cinderella season and win a Super Bowl. It won't be something they can sustain, but I could see one magic season for them. There's just so much talent pouring in.

 

[massraider]

There's a lot of Bengal fans that would disagree with the notion that Rey and Rivers are good LBs.

 

[duaneok66]

wasnt the secondary decimated by injuries this year???

 

[notdarkyet]

1. Mike Brown.

2. Lack of staff (GM,Scouting,etc)

3. Poor evaluation of talent they do have. Some young guys are not starting that are clearly playing better than their veteran couterparts. And doesn't it seem like they are constantly trying to put people in new positions? Michael Johnson as a OLB when he has shown he can be a great pass rusher at DE (his natural position), Rey Maualuga being put to the outside when he was a natural MLB.

4.a Poor In Game coaching. This coaching staff doesnt make necessary adjustments during the game. Not at half time, not on the fly. They might come into the game with a solid plan and the other team will make half time adjustments and kick the Bengals teeth in. Marvin has said as much in some press conferences saying looking b ac kthey should have done this or that. Well Monday is too late Marv.

4.b Awful clock management and challenges. Marvin throws challenge flag as a measure of desperation. He throws it on plays where he thinks the game is getting out of hand, not necessarily when he thinks the call on the field was wrong. Timeouts and clock management seem almost randomized. The fact that they went on record to say that they don't put Carson in charge of calling timeouts in the middle of the 2 minute drill is just mind bogglingly pathetic. If he is supposed to be your franchise QB and he can't walk and chew gum at the same time (run the offense and handle clock management), then he shouldnt be your franchise QB. Could you imagine a Brady, Manning, Brees, Rodgers... well ANY QB in the NFL not being in charge of their timeouts?

5. QB play. While some of the interceptions are not on Carson, plenty are, and even more of an issue is his propensity to try to get his WRs murdered with high balls over the middle. I don't know if there is anything physically wrong with Carson as far as his elbow or knee, but I think psychologically he is still traumatized from the knee injury. If you watch him in the pocket if there is any pressure or people falling around his legs, he doesn't step into the throw which results in balls sailing high. I worry far more about his accuracy than his arm strength at this point.

6. Playcalling. Offensively, it was Bratkowski being as predictable as the original Tecmo Bowl. They really need to get back to running the ball. Their line blocks much better in the running game than the pass. Luckily Bratkowski is gone. I don't know if Jay Gruden is the answer. I do know that he is not Brakowski, which can only be a good thing. Defensively I think injuries might have played a role in this, but I would like to see more blitzing. They have some talent at CB, if they just force the QB to make a quick decision, they will get off the field quicker. Too many times we sent just 4, let the QB make a sandwich and wait for someone to get open.

7. Identity. This team needs to have an identity. I have no idea if this is supposed to be a running team, a passing team, a team that relies on it's defense. They just muddle around between all of them and end up doing none of them well.

8. Lack of mental toughness. Things start going wrong and you have WRs pissing and moaning they don't have the ball and the body language of the team doesn't look like they think they can overcome it.

9. The Bo Jackson curse. By ruining the career of one of the potential all time greats, they have been cursed to suck for the rest of time. Kidding.... mostly.

Things will get better when Mike Brown dies. Katie (as much as I think she sucks) has said that she would hire a GM. Who knows if it would be a good GM hire, but at least it would be something.

 

[duaneok66]

1. Mike Brown.2. Lack of staff (GM,Scouting,etc)3. Poor evaluation of talent they do have. Some young guys are not starting that are clearly playing better than their veteran couterparts. And doesn't it seem like they are constantly trying to put people in new positions? Michael Johnson as a OLB when he has shown he can be a great pass rusher at DE (his natural position), Rey Maualuga being put to the outside when he was a natural MLB.4.a Poor In Game coaching. This coaching staff doesnt make necessary adjustments during the game. Not at half time, not on the fly. They might come into the game with a solid plan and the other team will make half time adjustments and kick the Bengals teeth in. Marvin has said as much in some press conferences saying looking b ac kthey should have done this or that. Well Monday is too late Marv. 4.b Awful clock management and challenges. Marvin throws challenge flag as a measure of desperation. He throws it on plays where he thinks the game is getting out of hand, not necessarily when he thinks the call on the field was wrong. Timeouts and clock management seem almost randomized. The fact that they went on record to say that they don't put Carson in charge of calling timeouts in the middle of the 2 minute drill is just mind bogglingly pathetic. If he is supposed to be your franchise QB and he can't walk and chew gum at the same time (run the offense and handle clock management), then he shouldnt be your franchise QB. Could you imagine a Brady, Manning, Brees, Rodgers... well ANY QB in the NFL not being in charge of their timeouts?5. QB play. While some of the interceptions are not on Carson, plenty are, and even more of an issue is his propensity to try to get his WRs murdered with high balls over the middle. I don't know if there is anything physically wrong with Carson as far as his elbow or knee, but I think psychologically he is still traumatized from the knee injury. If you watch him in the pocket if there is any pressure or people falling around his legs, he doesn't step into the throw which results in balls sailing high. I worry far more about his accuracy than his arm strength at this point.6. Playcalling. Offensively, it was Bratkowski being as predictable as the original Tecmo Bowl. They really need to get back to running the ball. Their line blocks much better in the running game than the pass. Luckily Bratkowski is gone. I don't know if Jay Gruden is the answer. I do know that he is not Brakowski, which can only be a good thing. Defensively I think injuries might have played a role in this, but I would like to see more blitzing. They have some talent at CB, if they just force the QB to make a quick decision, they will get off the field quicker. Too many times we sent just 4, let the QB make a sandwich and wait for someone to get open.7. Identity. This team needs to have an identity. I have no idea if this is supposed to be a running team, a passing team, a team that relies on it's defense. They just muddle around between all of them and end up doing none of them well. 8. Lack of mental toughness. Things start going wrong and you have WRs pissing and moaning they don't have the ball and the body language of the team doesn't look like they think they can overcome it.9. The Bo Jackson curse. By ruining the career of one of the potential all time greats, they have been cursed to suck for the rest of time. Kidding.... mostly.Things will get better when Mike Brown dies. Katie (as much as I think she sucks) has said that she would hire a GM. Who knows if it would be a good GM hire, but at least it would be something.

Shark Pool GOLD . . .thank you, Sir . . .

 

[QuizGuy66]

1. Mike Brown.2. Lack of staff (GM,Scouting,etc)3. Poor evaluation of talent they do have. Some young guys are not starting that are clearly playing better than their veteran couterparts. And doesn't it seem like they are constantly trying to put people in new positions? Michael Johnson as a OLB when he has shown he can be a great pass rusher at DE (his natural position), Rey Maualuga being put to the outside when he was a natural MLB.4.a Poor In Game coaching. This coaching staff doesnt make necessary adjustments during the game. Not at half time, not on the fly. They might come into the game with a solid plan and the other team will make half time adjustments and kick the Bengals teeth in. Marvin has said as much in some press conferences saying looking b ac kthey should have done this or that. Well Monday is too late Marv. 4.b Awful clock management and challenges. Marvin throws challenge flag as a measure of desperation. He throws it on plays where he thinks the game is getting out of hand, not necessarily when he thinks the call on the field was wrong. Timeouts and clock management seem almost randomized. The fact that they went on record to say that they don't put Carson in charge of calling timeouts in the middle of the 2 minute drill is just mind bogglingly pathetic. If he is supposed to be your franchise QB and he can't walk and chew gum at the same time (run the offense and handle clock management), then he shouldnt be your franchise QB. Could you imagine a Brady, Manning, Brees, Rodgers... well ANY QB in the NFL not being in charge of their timeouts?5. QB play. While some of the interceptions are not on Carson, plenty are, and even more of an issue is his propensity to try to get his WRs murdered with high balls over the middle. I don't know if there is anything physically wrong with Carson as far as his elbow or knee, but I think psychologically he is still traumatized from the knee injury. If you watch him in the pocket if there is any pressure or people falling around his legs, he doesn't step into the throw which results in balls sailing high. I worry far more about his accuracy than his arm strength at this point.6. Playcalling. Offensively, it was Bratkowski being as predictable as the original Tecmo Bowl. They really need to get back to running the ball. Their line blocks much better in the running game than the pass. Luckily Bratkowski is gone. I don't know if Jay Gruden is the answer. I do know that he is not Brakowski, which can only be a good thing. Defensively I think injuries might have played a role in this, but I would like to see more blitzing. They have some talent at CB, if they just force the QB to make a quick decision, they will get off the field quicker. Too many times we sent just 4, let the QB make a sandwich and wait for someone to get open.7. Identity. This team needs to have an identity. I have no idea if this is supposed to be a running team, a passing team, a team that relies on it's defense. They just muddle around between all of them and end up doing none of them well. 8. Lack of mental toughness. Things start going wrong and you have WRs pissing and moaning they don't have the ball and the body language of the team doesn't look like they think they can overcome it.9. The Bo Jackson curse. By ruining the career of one of the potential all time greats, they have been cursed to suck for the rest of time. Kidding.... mostly.Things will get better when Mike Brown dies. Katie (as much as I think she sucks) has said that she would hire a GM. Who knows if it would be a good GM hire, but at least it would be something.

Shark Pool GOLD . . .thank you, Sir . . .

notdarkyet is more eloquent than me. I have to say one other thing. You know a situation is bad when you'll keep the mediocre option you know vs the unknown.2 examples:1) Marvin's not a great HC by overall NFL standards. He certainly couldn't go straight to another HC job (unless someone regarded him as Mangenius, but that case in an anomaly. However, the fan base largely wanted him to stay because there was a much greater fear of whatever coach Mikey Boy would hire to replace him. 2) Same thing goes for QB I think with Carson. I'm not as dire as some about him - I think his career could definitely be salvaged with the right people around him (I'm not sure that's here) but at this point he's in that muddled middle of QBs - far from the level we was at in '05. Still, I fear that Akili Smith 2.0 is what will happen - the unknown is worse than the mediocre that we have.I forgot/didn't account for the whole Carson laying out his receivers thing. This was true even before the knee injury - who knows it could even be the initial spark of the issues between Chad and him. Housh was always a lot more willing to take the pounding than Chad, but hell, that might've contributed to Housh leaving as well. Don't that going more original Bengal offense (aka the West Coast Offense) will make this happen even more.Anyhow, it appears that Fensalk has been converted to a Bengals fan . Prosperity is just around the corner... -QG

 

[notdarkyet]

That is why Mike Brown is so bad. For good reason, the fans fear his ability to replace mediocrity with something better. Marvin has many many flaws, but compared to Mike Brown's track record for hiring coaches, he's far and away the best Mike has brought in. That in itself is just scary.

Agreed on Carson as well. As bad as he has been at certain stretches, he has shown that he is capable of being a pretty good QB. Who knows what Mike will want to bring in through the draft. I have a feeling that if Cam Newton is available, Mikey will pull the trigger on him.

The other aspect of Mike Brown sucking so bad is that this will never be a destination for quality FA's. 2nd-3rd tier players maybe, but most FA's come here based on a lack of options. Either based on their off field issues, or their declining play. So that puts a lot of pressure on hitting on your draft, and having them contribute early (before they can become FAs and leave).

 

[Fensalk]

I took the time recently to break down the drafts of every team under their current talent evaluators. The Bengals in recent years have done an excellent job of acquiring talent.

2010

First round: TE Jermaine Gresham - just set a team rookie record for receptions.

Second Round: DE Carlos Dunlap - 9.5 sacks in his rookie season, another rookie team record.

Third Round: WR Jordan Shipley - productive in his rookie season, especially as a third round pick.

2009:

Second Round: LB Rey Maualuga - very productive player.

Third Round: DE/LB Michael Johnson - productive for the third round.

2008:

First round: LB Keith Rivers - very productive player, got the one vote for rookie of the year that didn't go to Jerrod Mayo.

Third round: DT Pat Sims - very productive for a third round pick.

2007:

First round: CB Leon Hall - productive CB and second team all-pro in 2009.

Seventh round: S Chinedum Ndukwe - crazy productive pick for the seventh round.

2006:

First round: CB Johnathan Joseph - very productive CB.

Second round: OT Andrew Whitworth - decent player.

Fourth Round: DT Domata Peko - very productive lineman.

To put this in perspective, the Bengals have really done an excellent job of acquiring talent via the draft compared to many other NFL teams. Look at the defense. They've got a nice pass rusher, some nice defensive linemen, two nice linebackers, a pair of nice corners and they even pulled a quality safety out of their butt in round 7 in the last 4 years. To me this should be a top defense by now. This might actually be the best job of drafting defense of any team in the NFL over this period.

Why are the Bengals so horrible? Is it the coaching?

Let's add2011:

First Round: WR A.J. Green

Second Round: QB Andy Dalton

Last year, they were ranked 6th on defense. That makes a lot more sense to me. But the fall to 24th this year doesn't make any. Maybe we need to really stop looking at the Bengals as a joke franchise. 2010 might have simply been an aberration. The modern Bengals draft well and improve the talent level of their roster every year.