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How Far Is Too Far? Astros Cheating Scandal Ends In Firings, Disarray, Disgust (1 Viewer)

RUSF18 said:
You can say it as many times as you want. It doesn’t change the fact that it isn’t what is being discussed and isn’t what is being punished. 
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What do you mean.  It's exactly what he's saying.  That they had camera's pointed at people to learn signs.  They had videotape of it that they would study.

 
rockaction said:
Where would you say the product reviews are affiliate site reviews done most commonly and how?

I'm always on the look out, but never really effective in how that goes. A lot of my buying recently has been on the second hand market with limited edition clothing, and honestly, who knows what you're getting?
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Off the top of my head I can't really give you a good answer. I can't think of a recent enough experience to be specific. However, if you were to Google rankings for xxx or reviews of yyy. Chances are much of the 1st page of results will not be truly independent.

 
RUSF18 said:
You can say it as many times as you want. It doesn’t change the fact that it isn’t what is being discussed and isn’t what is being punished. 
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It is exactly what the issue is.  Sign stealing using technology.  Yes, Astros broke the MLB mandate of not using technology but so does many other teams.  Sign stealing is part of the game and has always been done.  It does not alter the integrity of the game.  It's not a big deal.  If MLB wants to punish the Astros because they were caught then do it and move on.  No need to make this into something it is not. 

 
I think instead of taking Tim Flannery's post as gospel we ought to treat is as evidence in support of A or in support of B, not as in final arbiter or say so about the topic. I think other players -- current players who have been affected by the cheating -- should have their say, too.

I mean, the LA Dodgers just got beat by the front offices of two teams that admittedly used video and watches to give players competitive advantages at the plate. Seems the only thing the Dodger front office did from payroll to managing down is to not cheat.

 
Gally said:
It is exactly what the issue is.  Sign stealing using technology.  Yes, Astros broke the MLB mandate of not using technology but so does many other teams.  Sign stealing is part of the game and has always been done.  It does not alter the integrity of the game.  It's not a big deal.  If MLB wants to punish the Astros because they were caught then do it and move on.  No need to make this into something it is not. 
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It absolutely alters the integrity of the game.

See, I can deal in declaratives, too. Saying it so doesn't make it so. Just like RUSF18 said. You can say it as many times and as many different ways as you want -- they stole signs using technology against the rules. Everyone, from the fans of the sport to MLB, thought the transgressions were large enough to handle stiff opprobrium and fines and sanctions that led to two firings of the two main front office people involved. 

 
rockaction said:
I think instead of taking Tim Flannery's post as gospel we ought to treat is as evidence in support of A or in support of B, not as in final arbiter or say so about the topic. I think other players -- current players who have been affected by the cheating -- should have their say, too.

I mean, the LA Dodgers just got beat by the front offices of two teams that admittedly used video and watches to give players competitive advantages at the plate. Seems the only thing the Dodger front office did from payroll to managing down is to not cheat.
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It's not meant to be gospel.  But it's meant to show that this is what's happening.  

 
TheIronSheik said:
What do you mean.  It's exactly what he's saying.  That they had camera's pointed at people to learn signs.  They had videotape of it that they would study.
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He means the issue isn't that people drive fast. Of course they drive fast. The issue is when they break the speed limit. Just because people are allowed to drive fast doesn't mean they can never take it too far.

We all agree that stealing signs is part of the game of baseball, just like driving fast is part of driving. We don't all agree that taking it too far should just be accepted. 

 
Politician Spock said:
He means the issue isn't that people drive fast. Of course they drive fast. The issue is when they break the speed limit. Just because people are allowed to drive fast doesn't mean they can never take it too far.

We all agree that stealing signs is part of the game of baseball, just like driving fast is part of driving. We don't all agree that taking it too far should just be accepted. 
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But what Flannery is saying they did/do would violate the rules as they are expressed currently.

 
TheIronSheik said:
But what Flannery is saying they did/do would violate the rules as they are expressed currently.
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And when there is a stretch of road that people have found they never get caught speeding, when law enforcement learns of it, they start enforcing that road.

It doesn't mean people should just get to keep doing it because they found a weak spot in law enforcement. 

 
Politician Spock said:
And when there is a stretch of road that people have found they never get caught speeding, when law enforcement learns of it, they start enforcing that road.

It doesn't mean people should just get to keep doing it because they found a weak spot in law enforcement. 
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I think you and I are arguing two different things.  From the beginning, I said if they got caught breaking the rules, they deserved the punishment they got.

In your scenario, people we're speeding for 125 years.  Then the police decided to add a speed limit.  The Astros flew by in their car and they were given the death penalty as people cheered that this heinous crime was finally rectified. 

 
TheIronSheik said:
I think you and I are arguing two different things.  From the beginning, I said if they got caught breaking the rules, they deserved the punishment they got.

In your scenario, people we're speeding for 125 years.  Then the police decided to add a speed limit.  The Astros flew by in their car and they were given the death penalty as people cheered that this heinous crime was finally rectified. 
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New rules are written in sports a lot. Not sure why you have such an issue with this one. 

 
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Politician Spock said:
New rules are written in sports a lot. Not sure why you have such an issue with this one. 
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Again, not my argument.  From the beginning I've said it's not that big of a deal.  That's all.  I haven't complained about anything or said that they didn't break the rules or that they didn't deserve to be punished.

All I've said was that we've made this out to be such an egregious crime that has ruined baseball forever.  It's not.  And it hasn't.  Because it's been going on forever.  

 
TheIronSheik said:
Again, not my argument.  From the beginning I've said it's not that big of a deal.  That's all.  I haven't complained about anything or said that they didn't break the rules or that they didn't deserve to be punished.

All I've said was that we've made this out to be such an egregious crime that has ruined baseball forever.  It's not.  And it hasn't.  Because it's been going on forever.  
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Go find us the people in these threads who have claimed that players/teams haven’t been trying to steal signs forever. 

Then go back to my post at the top of this very page which you had difficulty with. 

Who do you think you’re arguing with?

 
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RUSF18 said:
Go find us the people in these threads who have claimed that players/teams haven’t been trying to steal signs forever. 

Then go back to my post at the top of this very page which you had difficulty with. 
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Easy there, GB.  I'm not trying to be confrontational.  I am posting in two threads on the same subject, so I admit, maybe I'm confusing the two arguments into one.  If so, I apologize.  That's my bad, GB. 

 
TheIronSheik said:
Again, not my argument.  From the beginning I've said it's not that big of a deal.  That's all.  I haven't complained about anything or said that they didn't break the rules or that they didn't deserve to be punished.

All I've said was that we've made this out to be such an egregious crime that has ruined baseball forever.  It's not.  And it hasn't.  Because it's been going on forever.  
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Plowing into the catcher had been going on forever too. And before they changed the rule, that was always something I hated about baseball. It's a play that has absolutely nothing to do with team work and is just a brutal play that only appealed to fans who were also fans of "pro" wrestling. I'm glad they changed the rule on it now.

And I'm glad they changed the rules on sign stealing now too. If they are going to allow technology to steal signs, then they should allow technology to get rid of the need for signs. Just give the pitchers, catchers and coaches secure headsets. But if they aren't going to allow technology to communicate, then technology shouldn't be allowed for other purposes either. 

 
RUSF18 said:
Go find us the people in these threads who have claimed that players/teams haven’t been trying to steal signs forever. 

Then go back to my post at the top of this very page which you had difficulty with. 

Who do you think you’re arguing with?
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What we have been trying to say is that the infraction isn't a big deal because the end result (stealing signs) has been happening since the game began.  A new rule was put in place and the Astros broke it.  They are being punished.  We are fine with that.   The argument is surrounding whether the infraction is really a big deal or not.  Signs get stolen and always will get stolen.  The end result isn't a big deal because it is always happening and is easily prevented (even if they use cameras).  Change your signs, use multiple signs, etc. 

 
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Politician Spock said:
Plowing into the catcher had been going on forever too. And before they changed the rule, that was always something I hated about baseball. It's a play that has absolutely nothing to do with team work and is just a brutal play that only appealed to fans who were also fans of "pro" wrestling. I'm glad they changed the rule on it now.

And I'm glad they changed the rules on sign stealing now too. If they are going to allow technology to steal signs, then they should allow technology to get rid of the need for signs. Just give the pitchers, catchers and coaches secure headsets. But if they aren't going to allow technology to communicate, then technology shouldn't be allowed for other purposes either. 
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I still feel like you're accusing me of arguing a point I'm not actually arguing, GB.  First off, I totally agree with the headset.  I've said that for years.  

But again, my point isn't that I don't want them changing the rules.  There are plenty of rule changes I want to see.  My only point is that one day, back in 2017, sign stealing was pretty much OK to do.  Then they made the rule change, and the next day it became a crime on par with murder.  An act so vile, it was ruining the integrity of baseball and driving fans away from viewing it anymore.  The point I'm trying to make is how could it be such a blight on the game if it was allowed up until 2 years ago?

 
Gally said:
What we have been trying to say is that the infraction isn't a big deal because the end result (stealing signs) has been happening since the game began.  A new rule was put in place and the Astros broke it.  They are not being punished.  We are fine with that.   The argument is surrounding whether the infraction is really a big deal or not.  Signs get stolen and always will get stolen.  The end result isn't a big deal because it is always happening and is easily prevented (even if they use cameras).  Change your signs, use multiple signs, etc. 
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I've been watching baseball since I was five and argue that this alone has added a good fifteen minutes length to each game. And I disagree that it is easily prevented. They didn't start focusing on the catcher's crotch for ten seconds until Fox started doing it on close-ups in the late nineties during the playoffs. And that is where I disagree with your contention that it is easily prevented. How many mound visits did we start seeing during those years? They skyrocketed.

I think it's short-sighted to say it's easy to get around or that it doesn't have a tremendously deleterious impact on the game.

 
TheIronSheik said:
I still feel like you're accusing me of arguing a point I'm not actually arguing, GB.  First off, I totally agree with the headset.  I've said that for years.  

But again, my point isn't that I don't want them changing the rules.  There are plenty of rule changes I want to see.  My only point is that one day, back in 2017, sign stealing was pretty much OK to do.  Then they made the rule change, and the next day it became a crime on par with murder.  An act so vile, it was ruining the integrity of baseball and driving fans away from viewing it anymore.  The point I'm trying to make is how could it be such a blight on the game if it was allowed up until 2 years ago?
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If you wanted a fastaball in the ear, it was. But it was never on the level of technology. They found out about '54 and everyone winced at the possibilities for the modern game. It was indeed that technology hadn't been abused yet, or that widespread dissemination of information had happened.

Again, this is where the interception and knowledge of it come in. I don't know where the line is drawn, but this seems particularly egregious and asterisk-worthy. Is that an ad hoc thing. Yeah, it is. But so isn't cheating and how deep it is and how rampant in some clubhouses.

 
rockaction said:
I've been watching baseball since I was five and argue that this alone has added a good fifteen minutes length to each game. And I disagree that it is easily prevented. They didn't start focusing on the catcher's crotch for ten seconds until Fox started doing it on close-ups in the late nineties during the playoffs. And that is where I disagree with your contention that it is easily prevented. How many mound visits did we start seeing during those years? They skyrocketed.

I think it's short-sighted to say it's easy to get around or that it doesn't have a tremendously deleterious impact on the game.
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I would argue TV breaks, walk up music, adjusting batting gloves between each pitch, changing baseballs every pitch, etc have increased the time of games much more than teams trying to steal signs.  I don't think this argument against stealing/preventing stealing signs holds much water.....

 
TheIronSheik said:
I still feel like you're accusing me of arguing a point I'm not actually arguing, GB.  First off, I totally agree with the headset.  I've said that for years.  

But again, my point isn't that I don't want them changing the rules.  There are plenty of rule changes I want to see.  My only point is that one day, back in 2017, sign stealing was pretty much OK to do.  Then they made the rule change, and the next day it became a crime on par with murder.  An act so vile, it was ruining the integrity of baseball and driving fans away from viewing it anymore.  The point I'm trying to make is how could it be such a blight on the game if it was allowed up until 2 years ago?
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I think they aren't vacating the Astros WS win because it was in 2017. I think the punishment is for what happened after both leagues were made clear of the rule. 

 
So they had someone using video and rolling back the at bats to reverse engineer the signs?  Yes?  

I know there are neural networks out there that amateur YouTube guys did to crack signs. For lulz.  Was it to that level but for real?

 
The Astros offense will be under the microscope for sure this season. If their numbers go down in the slightest everyone will be piling on even worse than now.

If they put up better numbers they can shut some people up.

 
culdeus said:
So they had someone using video and rolling back the at bats to reverse engineer the signs?  Yes?  

I know there are neural networks out there that amateur YouTube guys did to crack signs. For lulz.  Was it to that level but for real?
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Neural networks, GB? Like brain maps?

I'm just unsure what you're talking about, but if so, then yes, something like it. Except there's no real copyright or patent or trade secret issue here, I just used it as a way to look at how we deal with commodity valuation relating to precious or secret information in other workplaces. If that's a confusing pedagogical tool, my bad, and ignore it at your wont. 

 
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rockaction said:
If you wanted a fastaball in the ear, it was. But it was never on the level of technology. They found out about '54 and everyone winced at the possibilities for the modern game. It was indeed that technology hadn't been abused yet, or that widespread dissemination of information had happened.

Again, this is where the interception and knowledge of it come in. I don't know where the line is drawn, but this seems particularly egregious and asterisk-worthy. Is that an ad hoc thing. Yeah, it is. But so isn't cheating and how deep it is and how rampant in some clubhouses.
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Hitting a home run gets you a fastball to the ear, too.  Baseball is weird. 

 
TheIronSheik said:
Hitting a home run gets you a fastball to the ear, too.  Baseball is weird. 
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Don't dig in to your perfectly legal batter's box with your perfectly legal right to swing at a ball on the inside corner! Even more so when we're still trying and you're up an arbitrary amount! What amount? Didn't you hear? It's arbitrary! Everyone knows when the game is really over, right?

No kidding. Baseball's been absurd in many places at many times for a century and half or longer. That there was no formal rule about technology and sign stealing shows you exactly how much attention they were paying to the workings of the telecast and the stadiums' capabilities for tech.

Oof all around. 

 
Major League Baseball itself has been accused of juicing balls to get more people to watch.  I mean, even the league itself doesn't have dirt on it's hands when it comes to "breaking the rules."

 
rockaction said:
Don't dig in to your perfectly legal batter's box with your perfectly legal right to swing at a ball on the inside corner! Even more so when we're still trying and you're up an arbitrary amount! What amount? Didn't you hear? It's arbitrary! Everyone knows when the game is really over, right?

No kidding. Baseball's been absurd in many places at many times for a century and half or longer. That there was no formal rule about technology and sign stealing shows you exactly how much attention they were paying to the workings of the telecast and the stadiums' capabilities for tech.

Oof all around. 
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You got that right.  Baseball is unlike any other sport, GB.

 
Meh.  I like that they got punished.  Deservedly so, but this isn't going to be headlines for long.  It doesn't approach anywhere near what steroids did to the game IMO.

Sign stealing is like everyone driving 3-4 mph over the speed limit.  Technically illegal, but never punished.  The Astros just did 20 over the limit.  The police caught them, they got a ticket.  End of story IMO.

 
encaitar said:
Meh.  I like that they got punished.  Deservedly so, but this isn't going to be headlines for long.  It doesn't approach anywhere near what steroids did to the game IMO.

Sign stealing is like everyone driving 3-4 mph over the speed limit.  Technically illegal, but never punished.  The Astros just did 20 over the limit.  The police caught them, they got a ticket.  End of story IMO.
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Twenty over gets you reckless in most states and it sounds like they got reckless or negligence on some account, if we're furthering the analogy. 

 
Slapdash said:
I feel for players like Yu Darvish and Kershaw who were really impacted by this
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And yet Houston still lost 3 games to the Dodgers. It kind of makes you wonder how bad their team really would have been if they hadn't cheated so hard.

 
The General said:
*
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You could put asterisks, pound signs, percentage signs, semicolons...  it don't matter.

That championship was amazing.  And it still feels amazing even with all of those signs you add to the end of it.  The same way it probably doesn't affect LA fans if you write that the Dodgers were the 2017 World Series Losers*.

 
TheIronSheik said:
You could put asterisks, pound signs, percentage signs, semicolons...  it don't matter.

That championship was amazing.  And it still feels amazing even with all of those signs you add to the end of it.  The same way it probably doesn't affect LA fans if you write that the Dodgers were the 2017 World Series Losers*.
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Yup. I’d be fine if the Mariners won a WS in this manner meaning I’d make that trade. Would also be defensive when people poked me about it :lol:

 
encaitar said:
Meh.  I like that they got punished.  Deservedly so, but this isn't going to be headlines for long.  It doesn't approach anywhere near what steroids did to the game IMO.

Sign stealing is like everyone driving 3-4 mph over the speed limit.  Technically illegal, but never punished.  The Astros just did 20 over the limit.  The police caught them, they got a ticket.  End of story IMO.
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The story does not end until Cora gets his punishment, which is likely to set some records I think.   

Everything in the Houston report points to Cora as the ring leader.  If they are able to couple that with what ever they find in the Red Sox investigation, Core is likely to get a much bigger punishment than the Houston guys got.

 
TheIronSheik said:
You could put asterisks, pound signs, percentage signs, semicolons...  it don't matter.

That championship was amazing.  And it still feels amazing even with all of those signs you add to the end of it.  The same way it probably doesn't affect LA fans if you write that the Dodgers were the 2017 World Series Losers*.
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I like  this sign:

2017 World Series Champions: Houston Astros   <---- CHEATERS!!!!

 
The report really makes you feel like players should have been suspended.  They really got off scot free when it was all them.  

One interesting thing is that it said they did it off and on throughout 2017 and into 2018 when they finally stopped because they no longer thought it was effective and that many of the batters found it more distracting than helpful.  

 
TheIronSheik said:
The report really makes you feel like players should have been suspended.  They really got off scot free when it was all them.  

One interesting thing is that it said they did it off and on throughout 2017 and into 2018 when they finally stopped because they no longer thought it was effective and that many of the batters found it more distracting than helpful.  
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This is another factor that many people may not realize.  Some batters would rather not know what was coming because it took away their focus on actually trying to hit the ball.  It can also be mistaken as other teams figure out they were being stolen and change up the signs.  When I played in college there were people on the team that didn't want to get signs relayed to them because they found it more of a distraction than a benefit.  

 
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