How Far Is Too Far? Astros Cheating Scandal Ends In Firings, Disarray, Disgust (1 Viewer)

[KarmaPolice]

It is bad but it is also easily preventable if you were suspicious it was happening.  There shouldn't be a live stream for every pitch for sure and there are now rules against it and teams are being punished for it (as they should be)  But knowing what pitch is coming has been happening since baseball started.  It didn't change the fabric/integrity of the game.  Pitch stealing has always been there.  This method is too much and is being punished as it should be.  My problem with the reaction is that it is being made out to be the worst thing in the history of the world.  It's just being way overblown.

For sure- this "changed the fabric of the game" stuff is just nuts, especially for this sport that's history is riddled with corking, tar, scuffing, roids, etc.  Hell, the league itself is juicing the ball and effecting the game.  

They broke the rule laid out by the league, cool - lay out punishment.  Just think people are taking this way out of proportion.  

 

[matuski]

I didn't even know the Astros had won a world series.

 

[Blue Dot Orange Dot]

https://twitter.com/jquadddddd/status/1218021838443438081?s=21

This is awesome. 

 

[rockaction]

This whole thing makes sports look like a total joke. What a disaster. Ban the people involved for life. Strip the titles. Huge fines. Make sure it doesn't happen again. But of course, that won't happen. Pathetic 

This is my gut reaction, then there's this reality

For sure- this "changed the fabric of the game" stuff is just nuts, especially for this sport that's history is riddled with corking, tar, scuffing, roids, etc.  Hell, the league itself is juicing the ball and effecting the game. 

Uh huh. Uh huh. Nods again. 

 

[[scooter]]

It is bad but it is also easily preventable if you were suspicious it was happening.  There shouldn't be a live stream for every pitch

But how do you prevent a team from live-streaming every pitch?

 

[[scooter]]

Jim Gray was just on Fox News calling for the Red Sox title to be vacated, saying that any player who doesn't return his championship ring should be banned from baseball.

(But getting a replacement ring would be OK, is that what you're saying Jimmy??)

 

[Politician Spock]

But how do you prevent a team from live-streaming every pitch?

Make sure there is a porn scene in every direction that a camera in the stadium could be pointed. The streaming service will shut down the stream. 

 

[Politician Spock]

I didn't even know the Astros had won a world series.

Jake Taylor: I play for the Indians.

Chaire Holloway: Here in Cleveland? I didn't know they still had a team!

Jake Taylor: Yup, we've got uniforms and everything, it's really great!

 

[Gally]

But how do you prevent a team from live-streaming every pitch?

By doing sign sequencing for every pitch.  It's not a difficult thing to do.  

 

[RUSF18]

By doing sign sequencing for every pitch.  It's not a difficult thing to do.  

That’s only for 12 year olds. 

 

[Bobcat10]

Used to be fun sitting on the bench in HS trying to figure out the other team's signs.  

This is just as bad, if not worse, than gambling or cheating to lose (losing on purpose).  I can't believe the players involved may not get punished.

 

[rockaction]

Used to be fun sitting on the bench in HS trying to figure out the other team's signs. 

Yep.

This is just as bad, if not worse, than gambling or cheating to lose (losing on purpose).  I can't believe the players involved may not get punished.

This seems incongruous with the first quote. But your point, it seems, would be that in baseball, the stealing signs culture runs rampart, but as laymen, we know when it crosses the line.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Used to be fun sitting on the bench in HS trying to figure out the other team's signs.  

This is just as bad, if not worse, than gambling or cheating to lose (losing on purpose).  I can't believe the players involved may not get punished.

Really?  So you are saying that all involved with this should get the Pete Rose treatment? 

 

[culdeus]

This guy gets it.  Sort of like the Cowboys or Alabama,  good enough but where most people are happy when they lose.

Lol putting the cowboys and Alabama in the same sentence about being good enough

 

[Leroy Hoard]

Lol putting the cowboys and Alabama in the same sentence about being good enough

I'm speaking from a more historical perspective. 

 

[flapgreen]

This is my gut reaction, then there's this reality

Uh huh. Uh huh. Nods again. 

Well, that's a good point, too. 

 

[cosjobs]

Maybe all the players involved should be forced to wear an eye patch this season.

 

[cosjobs]

As far as stripping title, if the act was not illegal until 2018, I do not see how the Astros title can be taken away. 

It can be tarnished and ridiculed, but its still theirs.

 

[Tom Hagen]

As far as stripping title, if the act was not illegal until 2018, I do not see how the Astros title can be taken away. 

It can be tarnished and ridiculed, but its still theirs.

Manfred sent a memo to all clubs on 9/15/17 warning of severe consequences for electronic sign stealing.  It was clearly against the rules before the 2017 playoffs started.

 

[shadyridr]

As far as stripping title, if the act was not illegal until 2018, I do not see how the Astros title can be taken away. 

It can be tarnished and ridiculed, but its still theirs.

9/2017

 

[cosjobs]

I guess I stand corrected on the timing. I thought I was referencing a timeline up thread. 

Still unsure about stripping a title. As far as the MLB overall, I think it would be extremely disruptive to do it for the first time on a weeks old rule chance. But I can still see the argument on the other side, although I am not yet persuaded.

I do know that if they voluntarily relinquished it and/or suspended some culprits, it would make it easier for me to return as a fan.

 

[TheIronSheik]

I was watching a football game yesterday and there was a fumble.  A pile of people jumped on top of the ball and the ref blew the whistle.  But I noticed that these guys kept trying to wrestle the ball away from whoever had it at the whistle.  By the time the ref made the call as to who recovered the fumble, I'm pretty sure it wasn't the person who had it when the whistle blew.  

I was blown away that these teams would cheat so blatantly.  Honestly, I'm done with football until they get this fixed.  It's ruining the integrity of the game.  That guy who fumbled the ball might lose his job just because some guys in a pile couldn't follow the rules.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

I was watching a football game yesterday and there was a fumble.  A pile of people jumped on top of the ball and the ref blew the whistle.  But I noticed that these guys kept trying to wrestle the ball away from whoever had it at the whistle.  By the time the ref made the call as to who recovered the fumble, I'm pretty sure it wasn't the person who had it when the whistle blew.  

I was blown away that these teams would cheat so blatantly.  Honestly, I'm done with football until they get this fixed.  It's ruining the integrity of the game.  That guy who fumbled the ball might lose his job just because some guys in a pile couldn't follow the rules.

Not to mention the physical attacks going on, people poking each other in the eye and other sensitive areas of the body.  Imagine if that went on when a guy slid into 2nd base.

 

[Bobcat10]

Really?  So you are saying that all involved with this should get the Pete Rose treatment? 

Not sure I completely agree with the Pete Rose treatment so I'd have to say no to your question.

Steroids, Blacksox, gambling, Astros....these are all black eyes to the game and should all carry suspensions at a minimum.  It's quite telling when pitchers are coming out and saying they'd rather face hitters using steroids before hitters knowing what is coming.  

 

[Brunell4MVP]

After pondering this few a few weeks, I don't find anything wrong with what was done.  Stealing signs is part of the sport dating back forever.  Just like plunking batters.  Just like its unwritten rules.  So what if it was done electronically versus visually?  The easy solution was for the pitcher and catcher to communicate by microphone or some kind of earpiece..  The NFL already does it that way with QBs.  To me, this was all on MLB for not empowering managers to take measures to make pitches harder to steal.  And for all the other "rules" they overlook.   If you ask me, Rob Manfred is the one that should be fired for this fiasco.

 

[Ron Swanson]

Not sure I completely agree with the Pete Rose treatment so I'd have to say no to your question.

Steroids, Blacksox, gambling, Astros....these are all black eyes to the game and should all carry suspensions at a minimum.  It's quite telling when pitchers are coming out and saying they'd rather face hitters using steroids before hitters knowing what is coming.  

I think you need to add player strikes to this list.

 

[TheIronSheik]

Not sure I completely agree with the Pete Rose treatment so I'd have to say no to your question.

Steroids, Blacksox, gambling, Astros....these are all black eyes to the game and should all carry suspensions at a minimum.  It's quite telling when pitchers are coming out and saying they'd rather face hitters using steroids before hitters knowing what is coming.  

But since we know this has happened in the past, even as far back as 1900, why is the Astros and Red Sox so much more impactful to the sport?

 

[Hov34]

https://twitter.com/jquadddddd/status/1218021838443438081?s=21

This is awesome. 

Trevor Bauer

 

[Bobcat10]

But since we know this has happened in the past, even as far back as 1900, why is the Astros and Red Sox so much more impactful to the sport?

I'm not aware of any recent technology-aided sign stealing scandals, let alone 100+ years ago.  I could be wrong though. 

I guess some people will think about it in the terms you put out there.  Being a long time player and coach, to me sign stealing and technology-aided sign stealing are apples and oranges.  

 

[rockaction]

I'm not aware of any recent technology-aided sign stealing scandals, let alone 100+ years ago.  I could be wrong though. 

I guess some people will think about it in the terms you put out there.  Being a long time player and coach, to me sign stealing and technology-aided sign stealing are apples and oranges.  

The New York Giants in 1951 were doing it with a telegraph and morse code, I swear to you. Bobby Thompson's "Shot Heard 'Round The World" was the result of stealing signs, IIRC. 

https://nypost.com/2002/07/29/51-giants-come-clean-admit-to-sign-stealing-scheme/

 

[-fish-]

The New York Giants in 1951 were doing it with a telegraph and morse code, I swear to you. Bobby Thompson's "Shot Heard 'Round The World" was the result of stealing signs, IIRC. 

https://nypost.com/2002/07/29/51-giants-come-clean-admit-to-sign-stealing-scheme/

Dodgers just keep getting screwed by this.  

 

[Gally]

I'm not aware of any recent technology-aided sign stealing scandals, let alone 100+ years ago.  I could be wrong though. 

I guess some people will think about it in the terms you put out there.  Being a long time player and coach, to me sign stealing and technology-aided sign stealing are apples and oranges.  

So the act of sign stealing is fine with you.  You just think the method is the problem?  The end result is the exact same thing.  Opponents can still hide their signs and change sequencing.  Teams adapt to come up with better ways to steal signs since the beginning of the sport.  Teams have adapted to protect their signs. It's the same thing and apples to apples.

However, the one big difference is the league offices put out a statement that using cameras to steal signs was not allowed.  Once that happened then it became a punishable act.  However, it doesn't change the integrity or fabric of the game because the end result (stealing signs) is still allowed.  Punish them because they used a bad method but it isn't the end of the world.

 

[TheIronSheik]

The New York Giants in 1951 were doing it with a telegraph and morse code, I swear to you. Bobby Thompson's "Shot Heard 'Round The World" was the result of stealing signs, IIRC. 

https://nypost.com/2002/07/29/51-giants-come-clean-admit-to-sign-stealing-scheme/

Yup.  And as I've pointed out, in 1900, the Phillies got busted for using a buzzer to relay in the pitches using a telegraph line, too.  

 

[TheIronSheik]

Yup.  And as I've pointed out, in 1900, the Phillies got busted for using a buzzer to relay in the pitches using a telegraph line, too.  

Also, Jack McDowell just said in the 80's, the White Sox were doing it with a light flickering in a Gatorade advertisement in centerfield.  

These are just the ones we KNOW about.  I'm guessing there are dozens more that never were disclosed.  

 

[Bobcat10]

So the act of sign stealing is fine with you.  You just think the method is the problem?  The end result is the exact same thing.  Opponents can still hide their signs and change sequencing.  Teams adapt to come up with better ways to steal signs since the beginning of the sport.  Teams have adapted to protect their signs. It's the same thing and apples to apples.

However, the one big difference is the league offices put out a statement that using cameras to steal signs was not allowed.  Once that happened then it became a punishable act.  However, it doesn't change the integrity or fabric of the game because the end result (stealing signs) is still allowed.  Punish them because they used a bad method but it isn't the end of the world.

Are there any other ways to steal a catcher's signs?

1. Lazy catcher signaling

2. Runner on 2nd base

3. Use of technology outside the field of play

4.  ?

 

[TheIronSheik]

Interesting article about how former players and coaches seem more upset with Fiers than the Astros.

LINK

 

[Gally]

Are there any other ways to steal a catcher's signs?

1. Lazy catcher signaling

2. Runner on 2nd base

3. Use of technology outside the field of play

4.  ?

Pitch tipping is another but I am not sure of what point you are trying to make....

 

[rockaction]

Interesting article about how former players and coaches seem more upset with Fiers than the Astros.

LINK

Dude, that is no evidence to support the ethical ramifications of cheaters.

That's like catching a bunch of serial murderers from tips and those that didn't get caught come out of the woodwork to decry the whistle blowers.

Are whistle blowers saints all the time? No, they can indeed be dirty rats. But asking the fox den about the hen is a bad logical move to make when edifying the contra argument.

 

[TheIronSheik]

Dude, that is no evidence to support the ethical ramifications of cheaters.

That's like catching a bunch of serial murderers from tips and those that didn't get caught come out of the woodwork to decry the whistle blowers.

Are whistle blowers saints all the time? No, they can indeed be dirty rats. But asking the fox den about the hen is a bad logical move to make when edifying the contra argument.

I wasn't trying to justify anything.  I was just stating that former players and coaches seem to be more upset with Fiers than the Astros.  

 

[rockaction]

I wasn't trying to justify anything.  I was just stating that former players and coaches seem to be more upset with Fiers than the Astros.  

Ah, I see. Fair enough. 

 

[Bobcat10]

Pitch tipping is another but I am not sure of what point you are trying to make....

I thought about that too so it could be another one....I thought it was sort of borderline to this discussion.

Whether they achieve the same result I still think #3 is very different than the others.  So different that MLB issued the warning, as you mentioned.  #1 and #2 happen within the field of play and are situational with gamesmanship involved.  

 

[Pipes]

As far as stripping title, if the act was not illegal until 2018, I do not see how the Astros title can be taken away. 

It can be tarnished and ridiculed, but its still theirs.

Agreed.  I'm fine with putting an asterisks next to their name but I'm not a fan of stripping titles. 

 

[Leroy Hoard]

Also, Jack McDowell just said in the 80's, the White Sox were doing it with a light flickering in a Gatorade advertisement in centerfield.  

These are just the ones we KNOW about.  I'm guessing there are dozens more that never were disclosed.  

As always, the last of the caught will get the brunt of the punishment.

 

[-fish-]

I guess I stand corrected on the timing. I thought I was referencing a timeline up thread. 

Still unsure about stripping a title. As far as the MLB overall, I think it would be extremely disruptive to do it for the first time on a weeks old rule chance. But I can still see the argument on the other side, although I am not yet persuaded.

I do know that if they voluntarily relinquished it and/or suspended some culprits, it would make it easier for me to return as a fan.

They shouldn’t have their title stripped.  They should have to wear jerseys that say “we cheated” instead of their normal logo for a season.  As a Dodgers fan, that would make me feel much better about the money I shelled out for tickets and travel to a World Series that may have been stolen from my team.

I’m sure there is a class action to come asking for refunds for the price of tickets to tainted games.

 

[DallasDMac]

People take sports way to seriously. The level of passion from some folks over this is truly mind-bottling to me.

 

[NotSmart]

People take sports way to seriously. The level of passion from some folks over this is truly mind-bottling to me.

If you figure this out sooner than your late 40's, you're doing well.

 

[rockaction]

People take sports way to seriously. The level of passion from some folks over this is truly mind-bottling to me.

People do. People also pony up serious entertainment dollars and time for fair sporting events. When the cheat comes in, people are upset.

 

[Zegras11]

Flying to Houston right now.  I feel dirty.  

 

[Tom Hagen]

People do. People also pony up serious entertainment dollars and time for fair sporting events. When the cheat comes in, people are upset.

Not to mention people who have wagered money expecting a fair competition.

 

[TheIronSheik]

As always, the last of the caught will get the brunt of the punishment.

And I get that.  I'm not so much talking about the punishment.  I'm talking more about how people are saying the game is tainted and will never be the same.  How this is one of the worst, if not THE worst, scandal in any sport.  

I'm simply asking how can that be if it's been happening since the 1800's?  If it wasn't the end of the world back then, why is it now?