How long should someone sit in jail if they can't afford bail? (1 Viewer)

[Gary Coal Man]

Experts Say De Blasio's Bail Reform Plan Is Not Enough

Mayor Bill de Blasio announced last week his plan for the allocation of $17.8 million to reduce unwarranted jail time for defendants awaiting trial. This initiative will keep roughly 3,000 people from unnecessarily being imprisoned who can't afford bail, leaving them under court supervision, according to NYC.gov.

Avoiding nonessential imprisonment of low-risk offenders may seem like a step forward in the overwhelming issue of mass incarceration in America, but it's not enough, Alec Karakatsanis, the co-founder of Equal Justice Under Law, told HuffPost Live on July 9.

"As de Blasio made clear in his statement [last week], he's only increasing a small pretrial release program by a couple of thousand spots," Karakatsanis told host Marc Lamont Hill. "There's still 40,000 human beings in New York every year held in a cage solely because they can't afford money bail."

And for those people, any amount of time behind bars before they can make bail can have irreparable consequences, according to Robyn Mar, director of Early Advocacy for the Bronx Defenders.

"Even a short amount of pretrial detention can be extremely destabilizing to peoples' lives," Mar said. "Missing days of work, losing jobs, ... missing days of school. People are at risk of child protective services coming in and trying to take their kids away from them. There can be immigration consequences. It's really devastating to people, and when they come out they have less than when they went in."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/07/13/de-blasio-bail-reform_n_7772192.html?ncid=fcbklnkushpsn00000001

 

[Cjw_55106]

In a case like this, what makes one an expert? Overall, the guy may be right, but lets not gloss over this mistruth:

"There's still 40,000 human beings in New York every year held in a cage solely because they can't afford money bail."

No sir, they are not there solely because they cant afford bail.

 

[The Big Guy]

There should be more ROR and desk tickets and less bail. I just saw someone get bail of 10K locally for getting caught stealing 2500 from a grocery store. Explain how that makes sense on any planet.

 

[Cjw_55106]

There should be more ROR and desk tickets and less bail. I just saw someone get bail of 10K locally for getting caught stealing 2500 from a grocery store. Explain how that makes sense on any planet.

Because you generally only need 10% of that bail amount and it probably wasnt his first offense?

 

[jon_mx]

There should be more ROR and desk tickets and less bail. I just saw someone get bail of 10K locally for getting caught stealing 2500 from a grocery store. Explain how that makes sense on any planet.

Is $2500 not serious? That is a bit more than lunch money.

 

[The Big Guy]

There should be more ROR and desk tickets and less bail. I just saw someone get bail of 10K locally for getting caught stealing 2500 from a grocery store. Explain how that makes sense on any planet.

Is $2500 not serious? That is a bit more than lunch money.

Of course 2500 is serious, but to add to it being coupon fraud and not a cart full of meat and baby formula running out the door. But bail being 4x the amount being charged with stealing seems very excessive. And then if they don't have it and can't come up with bail, they have to sit in jail until trial costing us a lot of money.

 

[igbomb]

In a case like this, what makes one an expert? Overall, the guy may be right, but lets not gloss over this mistruth:

"There's still 40,000 human beings in New York every year held in a cage solely because they can't afford money bail."

No sir, they are not there solely because they cant afford bail.

When you're comparing it to people with similar crimes that had enough money to make bail, then yes, the sole reason they are in jail and the others aren't is because they can't afford the bail.

 

[JHuber77]

People forget that bail bondsmen also will bail you out for 10% with some collateral. If stealing $2,500 worth of merchandise gives you $10K in bail/bonds, your really only paying 1K.

 

[Cjw_55106]

In a case like this, what makes one an expert? Overall, the guy may be right, but lets not gloss over this mistruth:

"There's still 40,000 human beings in New York every year held in a cage solely because they can't afford money bail."

No sir, they are not there solely because they cant afford bail.

When you're comparing it to people with similar crimes that had enough money to make bail, then yes, the sole reason they are in jail and the others aren't is because they can't afford the bail.

If they werent arrested and charged with a crime, they wouldnt be in jail. It doesnt matter who you compare, bail isnt the sole reason.

 

[Joe Summer]

In a case like this, what makes one an expert? Overall, the guy may be right, but lets not gloss over this mistruth:

"There's still 40,000 human beings in New York every year held in a cage solely because they can't afford money bail."

No sir, they are not there solely because they cant afford bail.

When you're comparing it to people with similar crimes that had enough money to make bail, then yes, the sole reason they are in jail and the others aren't is because they can't afford the bail.

If they werent arrested and charged with a crime, they wouldnt be in jail. It doesnt matter who you compare, bail isnt the sole reason.

Reading comprehension is the sole reason why you posted this.

 

[randall146]

People need to remember that the point of bail is supposed to be assuring that the accused, though presumed innocent person will appear at future court proceedings where their guilt will be determined.

The price of stolen baby formula or whether there is a prior criminal record are really irrelevant.

 

[Kal El]

People need to remember that the point of bail is supposed to be assuring that the accused, though presumed innocent person will appear at future court proceedings where their guilt will be determined.

The price of stolen baby formula or whether there is a prior criminal record are really irrelevant.

That makes sense, but wouldn't it make more sense to try and clean out the backlog of cases in the system?

 

[The Big Guy]

People forget that bail bondsmen also will bail you out for 10% with some collateral. If stealing $2,500 worth of merchandise gives you $10K in bail/bonds, your really only paying 1K.

Yes please remember that. Because you are giving 1000 dollars to the bail bondsman for them to covet your 10000 dollar bail for you. That is 1000 dollars that you will never see again,guilty or innocent and by setting bail at 10K the judicial system has all but assured that this person is now officially worse no matter what the outcome of their case. If the judge made the bail 1000 cash only for the person then they would at least be getting their money back when they show up for trial which is all this is supposed to be about anyway.

 

[randall146]

People need to remember that the point of bail is supposed to be assuring that the accused, though presumed innocent person will appear at future court proceedings where their guilt will be determined.

The price of stolen baby formula or whether there is a prior criminal record are really irrelevant.

That makes sense, but wouldn't it make more sense to try and clean out the backlog of cases in the system?

That would also make sense, but the two don't really have anything to do with each other

 

[The Big Guy]

People forget that bail bondsmen also will bail you out for 10% with some collateral. If stealing $2,500 worth of merchandise gives you $10K in bail/bonds, your really only paying 1K.

Yes please remember that. Because you are giving 1000 dollars to the bail bondsman for them to covet your 10000 dollar bail for you. That is 1000 dollars that you will never see again,guilty or innocent and by setting bail at 10K the judicial system has all but assured that this person is now officially worse no matter what the outcome of their case. If the judge made the bail 1000 cash only for the person then they would at least be getting their money back when they show up for trial which is all this is supposed to be about anyway.

Holy crap, that's how bail works? No thanks.

How Bonds and Bondsmen Work?When a bail bondsman, working with a bail bonding agency, puts up a fee for the release of a suspect on bail, the bondsman charges a fee of usually about 10% of the amount of money that is required to pay the bail. This initial fee is not refundable, even if the case is thrown out after the suspect posts bail.

The bail bondsman will take out a security against a defendant’s assets in order to cover the cost of the bail. If the defendant does not have enough assets, then the bondsman might take out securities against individuals that are willing to assist, such as relatives and friends. When a security is taken out, a bondsman often requires that 10% cash payment in addition to the mortgage on a person’s home that would equal the full amount of the bail bond money owed.

In the event that a defendant does not arrive in court on trial day, the bondsman can not only hire a bounty hunter to track the defendant down, but the bondsman then has a right to sue the defendant for money that was given to the court for the defendant’s bail bond. The bail bond agency may also recover any unpaid money by claiming assets that were owned by the defendant or those individuals that signed a contract to financial assist the defendant.

Pretty sweet deal for the bail bondsman. Not so sweet deal for the poor schmuck who can pay the money that he probably can't afford or potentially lose his job for missing work or having to call out of work because he is in jail. I am no softee on crime or criminals, but the system seems to just be a huge free money source for the bail bondsmen.

 

[TakiToki]

In a case like this, what makes one an expert? Overall, the guy may be right, but lets not gloss over this mistruth:

"There's still 40,000 human beings in New York every year held in a cage solely because they can't afford money bail."

No sir, they are not there solely because they cant afford bail.

When you're comparing it to people with similar crimes that had enough money to make bail, then yes, the sole reason they are in jail and the others aren't is because they can't afford the bail.

If they werent arrested and charged with a crime, they wouldnt be in jail. It doesnt matter who you compare, bail isnt the sole reason.

They likely wouldn't be in jail if they had Superman powers and could just bust right through the walls. Why wasn't that addressed? Why are these liberals afraid of the truth?

 

[Ignoramus]

This 16 year old kid spent three years in Rikers, much of it in solitary confinement, due in no small part to a ####ed up bail system. He recently killed himself as a result of what he endured there.

 

[cstu]

This 16 year old kid spent three years in Rikers, much of it in solitary confinement, due in no small part to a ####ed up bail system. He recently killed himself as a result of what he endured there.

But, because Browder was still on probation, the judge ordered him to be held and set bail at three thousand dollars. The amount was out of reach for his family

They couldn't come up with $300?

 

[Cjw_55106]

This 16 year old kid spent three years in Rikers, much of it in solitary confinement, due in no small part to a ####ed up bail system. He recently killed himself as a result of what he endured there.

Was that in another article?

 

[Christo]

This 16 year old kid spent three years in Rikers, much of it in solitary confinement, due in no small part to a ####ed up bail system. He recently killed himself as a result of what he endured there.

Was that in another article?

Link at the bottom of that page

 

[Cjw_55106]

This 16 year old kid spent three years in Rikers, much of it in solitary confinement, due in no small part to a ####ed up bail system. He recently killed himself as a result of what he endured there.

Was that in another article?

Link at the bottom of that page

Thank you sir.

 

[igbomb]

In a case like this, what makes one an expert? Overall, the guy may be right, but lets not gloss over this mistruth:

"There's still 40,000 human beings in New York every year held in a cage solely because they can't afford money bail."

No sir, they are not there solely because they cant afford bail.

When you're comparing it to people with similar crimes that had enough money to make bail, then yes, the sole reason they are in jail and the others aren't is because they can't afford the bail.

If they werent arrested and charged with a crime, they wouldnt be in jail. It doesnt matter who you compare, bail isnt the sole reason.

Is this the old argument that once you (allegedly) commit a crime, regardless of what happens you had it coming.

This is the same tired and ridiculous argument people use when a guy selling loose cigarettes gets choked to death.

 

[igbomb]

This 16 year old kid spent three years in Rikers, much of it in solitary confinement, due in no small part to a ####ed up bail system. He recently killed himself as a result of what he endured there.

But, because Browder was still on probation, the judge ordered him to be held and set bail at three thousand dollars. The amount was out of reach for his family

They couldn't come up with $300?

That's what you took away from that?

 

[Cjw_55106]

In a case like this, what makes one an expert? Overall, the guy may be right, but lets not gloss over this mistruth:

"There's still 40,000 human beings in New York every year held in a cage solely because they can't afford money bail."

No sir, they are not there solely because they cant afford bail.

When you're comparing it to people with similar crimes that had enough money to make bail, then yes, the sole reason they are in jail and the others aren't is because they can't afford the bail.

If they werent arrested and charged with a crime, they wouldnt be in jail. It doesnt matter who you compare, bail isnt the sole reason.

Is this the old argument that once you (allegedly) commit a crime, regardless of what happens you had it coming.

This is the same tired and ridiculous argument people use when a guy selling loose cigarettes gets choked to death.

No, that isnt the argument. The argument (which wasnt really an argument, just pointing out the facts) was that 40,000 people arent in jail in NY soley because they didnt have money. Like I said, the guy may have a point on some level, but dont use words like "soley" to try to enhance your story.

 

[Joe Summer]

In a case like this, what makes one an expert? Overall, the guy may be right, but lets not gloss over this mistruth:

"There's still 40,000 human beings in New York every year held in a cage solely because they can't afford money bail."

No sir, they are not there solely because they cant afford bail.

When you're comparing it to people with similar crimes that had enough money to make bail, then yes, the sole reason they are in jail and the others aren't is because they can't afford the bail.

If they werent arrested and charged with a crime, they wouldnt be in jail. It doesnt matter who you compare, bail isnt the sole reason.

Is this the old argument that once you (allegedly) commit a crime, regardless of what happens you had it coming.

This is the same tired and ridiculous argument people use when a guy selling loose cigarettes gets choked to death.

No, that isnt the argument. The argument (which wasnt really an argument, just pointing out the facts) was that 40,000 people arent in jail in NY soley because they didnt have money. Like I said, the guy may have a point on some level, but dont use words like "soley" to try to enhance your story.

Was there anything else besides money that could have got him out of jail? (Besides a time machine of course.)

 

[randall146]

To clear up the bail-cost issue a little bit, there are (at least) 3 commonly used bail requirements:

1) "unsecured bond" or "personal recognizance" - this means the defendant doesn't pay anything now but simply makes a promise to show up to their court dates. The only financial aspect is the theoretical condition that they are agreeing to pay $ if they don't show up later. In other words, a judge might set $1000 unsecured bond, which means you go free now if you promise to pay us $1000 if you don't show up.

2) "secured bond" or "surety bail" - this is what was discussed above. Let's say the Judge sets $10,000 secured bond. A defendant could get out in three ways. He could give the court $10,000, which he gets back at the end of his case assuming he shows up. OR, he could post $10,000 worth of property, such as allowing the court to put a lien for $10,000 on his home. The lien would be removed at the end of the case, or executed if he failed to return to court. OR, as described earlier in the thread, he could PAY a bail bondsman to post the cash or property for him. And, as described above, it is fairly typical for the price to be 10% of the unsecured bond. So you pay a bondsman $1000 to post $10,000 worth of property on your behalf. At the end of the case, the bondsman gets his property back but the defendant gets nothing.

3) Cash bail. Sometimes a judge just sets cash bail, which means you can only pay with cash. Sometimes judges do this because they don't like the bail bondsman system for whatever reason (it preys on the poor; it doesn't assure people's appearance). Sometimes they do it because the judicial system wants the money. You owe the system $250 from past court costs and don't show up to court? $250 cash bail.

It's possible the poor kid who did 3 years at Riker's couldn't afford the $300 to pay the bondsman, but it's also possible that it was $3000 cash bail. I don't know specifically how they do/did bail in NY.

 

[igbomb]

In a case like this, what makes one an expert? Overall, the guy may be right, but lets not gloss over this mistruth:

"There's still 40,000 human beings in New York every year held in a cage solely because they can't afford money bail."

No sir, they are not there solely because they cant afford bail.

When you're comparing it to people with similar crimes that had enough money to make bail, then yes, the sole reason they are in jail and the others aren't is because they can't afford the bail.

If they werent arrested and charged with a crime, they wouldnt be in jail. It doesnt matter who you compare, bail isnt the sole reason.

Is this the old argument that once you (allegedly) commit a crime, regardless of what happens you had it coming.

This is the same tired and ridiculous argument people use when a guy selling loose cigarettes gets choked to death.

No, that isnt the argument. The argument (which wasnt really an argument, just pointing out the facts) was that 40,000 people arent in jail in NY soley because they didnt have money. Like I said, the guy may have a point on some level, but dont use words like "soley" to try to enhance your story.

Yes they are. The rich guy who gets charged with the exact same crime is not sitting in a cell, SOLELY due to the fact that he has money.

It's not a story enhancement. It's a pretty cut and dry direct cause. The argument isn't around why they were arrested to begin with, it's about why they are still in a cell days/months/even years after getting arrested but without going to trial.

 

[Kal El]

People need to remember that the point of bail is supposed to be assuring that the accused, though presumed innocent person will appear at future court proceedings where their guilt will be determined.

The price of stolen baby formula or whether there is a prior criminal record are really irrelevant.

That makes sense, but wouldn't it make more sense to try and clean out the backlog of cases in the system?

That would also make sense, but the two don't really have anything to do with each other

My mode of thinking is that if they can't afford bail, they're stuck until their case is heard, which with the current backlog could take a long time. Clear out the mess, and let people quickly have their day in court. It would also free up space for those that have been convicted.

 

[Rove!]

hey, the worst mayor in America may have finally gotten something right....

 

[cstu]

This 16 year old kid spent three years in Rikers, much of it in solitary confinement, due in no small part to a ####ed up bail system. He recently killed himself as a result of what he endured there.

But, because Browder was still on probation, the judge ordered him to be held and set bail at three thousand dollars. The amount was out of reach for his family

They couldn't come up with $300?

That's what you took away from that?

I took away a lot of stuff but what kind of mother lets her son sit in jail instead of scrounging up $300? It said in the article she visited him every week and gave him money for the commissary. Couldn't be bothered to visit a bondsman?

 

[Christo]

This 16 year old kid spent three years in Rikers, much of it in solitary confinement, due in no small part to a ####ed up bail system. He recently killed himself as a result of what he endured there.

But, because Browder was still on probation, the judge ordered him to be held and set bail at three thousand dollars. The amount was out of reach for his family

They couldn't come up with $300?

That's what you took away from that?

I took away a lot of stuff but what kind of mother lets her son sit in jail instead of scrounging up $300? It said in the article she visited him every week and gave him money for the commissary. Couldn't be bothered to visit a bondsman?

It's not just $300. It's $300 plus $2,700 in security. If she rents, has a car with a note, and lives paycheck to paycheck, she may not have the security. How much do you think she was giving him for the commissary?

 

[randall146]

Just read the article. He was held for 2 months on the $3,000 bail, which the family couldn't afford. However, he was indicted after 2 months and, because he was an alleged violator of probation as well, he was held without bail.

So, no, it's not mom's fault

 

[MikeMan]

Piddly squabbling re: "only" aside, the lack of a speedy hearing for minor offenses is ridiculous. If these people can't make bail, they probably won't be paying their 'fine' they get after their hearing either. Extra time in the slammer is just a money drain on taxes and a money drain on their families which only makes some of their problems worse causing more criminal behavior. And the innocent ones are now behind on their rent too. I'm not sure the answer though - if you want more judges, courts, infrastructure, etc... you need more money and helping the poor in this way is not the top priority for any politician or city. If anything, people and politicians want to clamor for 'more police', not more bureaucracy.

 

[cstu]

This 16 year old kid spent three years in Rikers, much of it in solitary confinement, due in no small part to a ####ed up bail system. He recently killed himself as a result of what he endured there.

But, because Browder was still on probation, the judge ordered him to be held and set bail at three thousand dollars. The amount was out of reach for his family

They couldn't come up with $300?

That's what you took away from that?

I took away a lot of stuff but what kind of mother lets her son sit in jail instead of scrounging up $300? It said in the article she visited him every week and gave him money for the commissary. Couldn't be bothered to visit a bondsman?

It's not just $300. It's $300 plus $2,700 in security. If she rents, has a car with a note, and lives paycheck to paycheck, she may not have the security. How much do you think she was giving him for the commissary?

I would lie, cheat, and steal (more than usual) to come up with $3k.

 

[Christo]

This 16 year old kid spent three years in Rikers, much of it in solitary confinement, due in no small part to a ####ed up bail system. He recently killed himself as a result of what he endured there.

But, because Browder was still on probation, the judge ordered him to be held and set bail at three thousand dollars. The amount was out of reach for his family

They couldn't come up with $300?

That's what you took away from that?

I took away a lot of stuff but what kind of mother lets her son sit in jail instead of scrounging up $300? It said in the article she visited him every week and gave him money for the commissary. Couldn't be bothered to visit a bondsman?

It's not just $300. It's $300 plus $2,700 in security. If she rents, has a car with a note, and lives paycheck to paycheck, she may not have the security. How much do you think she was giving him for the commissary?

I would lie, cheat, and steal (more than usual) to come up with $3k.

Good for you.

 

[randall146]

This 16 year old kid spent three years in Rikers, much of it in solitary confinement, due in no small part to a ####ed up bail system. He recently killed himself as a result of what he endured there.

But, because Browder was still on probation, the judge ordered him to be held and set bail at three thousand dollars. The amount was out of reach for his family

They couldn't come up with $300?

That's what you took away from that?

I took away a lot of stuff but what kind of mother lets her son sit in jail instead of scrounging up $300? It said in the article she visited him every week and gave him money for the commissary. Couldn't be bothered to visit a bondsman?

It's not just $300. It's $300 plus $2,700 in security. If she rents, has a car with a note, and lives paycheck to paycheck, she may not have the security. How much do you think she was giving him for the commissary?

I would lie, cheat, and steal (more than usual) to come up with $3k.

the point of bail isn't to incentivize additional crime

 

[whoknew]

This is a long but good article on one of the many problems with the criminal justice system:

The thesis:

But as bail has evolved in America, it has become less and less a tool for keeping people out of jail, and more and more a trap door for those who cannot afford to pay it. Unsecured bond has become vanishingly rare, and in most jurisdictions, there are only two ways to make bail: post the entire amount yourself up front — what’s called ‘‘money bail’’ or ‘‘cash bail’’ — or pay a commercial bail bondsman to do so. For relatively low bail amounts — say, below $2,000, the range in which most New York City bails fall — the second option often doesn’t even exist; bondsmen can’t make enough money from such small bails to make it worth their while.

With national attention suddenly focused on the criminal-justice system, bail has been cited as an easy target for reformers. But ensuring that no one is held in jail based on poverty would, in many respects, necessitate a complete reordering of criminal justice. The open secret is that in most jurisdictions, bail is the grease that keeps the gears of the overburdened system turning. Faced with the prospect of going to jail for want of bail, many defendants accept plea deals instead, sometimes at their arraignments. New York City courts processed 365,000 arraignments in 2013; well under 5 percent of those cases went all the way to a trial resolution. If even a small fraction of those defendants asserted their right to a trial, criminal courts would be overwhelmed. By encouraging poor defendants to plead guilty, bail keeps the system afloat.

 

[Mile High]

So if you're really poor, set in jail or walk out with a record. Hell of a system we have going on.

 

[AhrnCityPahnder]

In a case like this, what makes one an expert? Overall, the guy may be right, but lets not gloss over this mistruth:

"There's still 40,000 human beings in New York every year held in a cage solely because they can't afford money bail."

No sir, they are not there solely because they cant afford bail.

When you're comparing it to people with similar crimes that had enough money to make bail, then yes, the sole reason they are in jail and the others aren't is because they can't afford the bail.

If they werent arrested and charged with a crime, they wouldnt be in jail. It doesnt matter who you compare, bail isnt the sole reason.

Is this the old argument that once you (allegedly) commit a crime, regardless of what happens you had it coming.

This is the same tired and ridiculous argument people use when a guy selling loose cigarettes gets choked to death.

No, that isnt the argument. The argument (which wasnt really an argument, just pointing out the facts) was that 40,000 people arent in jail in NY soley because they didnt have money. Like I said, the guy may have a point on some level, but dont use words like "soley" to try to enhance your story.

Yes they are. The rich guy who gets charged with the exact same crime is not sitting in a cell, SOLELY due to the fact that he has money.

It's not a story enhancement. It's a pretty cut and dry direct cause. The argument isn't around why they were arrested to begin with, it's about why they are still in a cell days/months/even years after getting arrested but without going to trial.

OK Team, we're going to split into two teams here. Those of you who can read, step over to the right. The rest of you, stop posting in this thread. NOW GO GET EM BOYS.

BREAK