How Should Women's Sports Be Defined? (1 Viewer)

[GroveDiesel]

With all of the gender issues becoming bigger and bigger, the definition of who qualifies to compete in women's sports is becoming murkier and murkier. Is there any way to create meaningful standards for who can participate? Should there even be a separate category of sports designated for women?

I thought this article was very interesting and the proposed standard seems very reasonable to me, especially in light of the specific case cited by the article. I mean, a transgender girl who has male genitals and is taking no hormone treatments just kind of seems like a boy to me, especially in the context of sports.

http://deadspin.com/lack-of-testosterone-limits-leads-to-debate-over-transg-1795823249

 

[rockaction]

I keep asking, and people keep getting upset. 

How should we define assignments such as this? Sex, or gender. 

I get very negative responses to posting issues pertaining to this, but it's a fundamental issue.  

 

[rockaction]

With all of the gender issues becoming bigger and bigger, the definition of who qualifies to compete in women's sports is becoming murkier and murkier. Is there any way to create meaningful standards for who can participate? Should there even be a separate category of sports designated for women?

I thought this article was very interesting and the proposed standard seems very reasonable to me, especially in light of the specific case cited by the article. I mean, a transgender girl who has male genitals and is taking no hormone treatments just kind of seems like a boy to me, especially in the context of sports.

http://deadspin.com/lack-of-testosterone-limits-leads-to-debate-over-transg-1795823249

Also, Title IX has created its own problem with a "separate but equal" attitude towards women's sports that might get swallowed by its own interpretation and radicalism. What was justified as common sense had led us to no sense at all. 

And this happened in MA in the nineties with field hockey players (male) suing under Title IX and other civil rights provisions to play female sports. 

It's impossible to solve in theory; easy once you draw lines.  

 

[otb_lifer]

I keep asking, and people keep getting upset. 

How should we define assignments such as this? Sex, or gender. 

I get very negative responses to posting issues pertaining to this, but it's a fundamental issue.  

alotta chix named 'Jodi' play softball

 

[rockaction]

alotta chix named 'Jodi' play softball

Modern Humorist, an old website in the aughts, had this Encyclopedia Brown/Nancy Drew character (female) whose only dream it was was to get lost in the back of a softball bus. Too funny.  

 

[George Jefferson Airplane]

We shouldn't let them play sports that don't require lots of bending and holding. 

 

[rockaction]

This is also an example of the more austere, theory-based feminism butting up against the more expressive "I who I am" feminism, genres that definitely bleed (oops, or don't) but also have a lot to reconcile with the other. 

Her op-ed at the end of the article was interesting.  

 

[RokNRole]

Easy.

Born with a bracciole and you play with the boys. Born with a money pit and you play with the girls.

 

[jon_mx]

alotta chix named 'Jodi' play softball

Pretty sure the chick I saw playing softball this weekend was named 'Joe'. 

 

[comfortably numb]

Define....defined.

 

[rockaction]

Define....defined.

Yep. It depends on what the "is" is. 

It's always going to be this way when pure logic trumps wisdom.  

 

[otb_lifer]

Pretty sure the chick I saw playing softball this weekend was named 'Joe'. 

must've been the pitcher

 

[D in the D]

Pretty sure the definition should include the word "boring" for the most part, except for the ones that involve "lots of bending and holding"

 

[jon_mx]

must've been the pitcher

Just weird.  The guy was about 6'-2" looking completely masculine and playing with the girls. 

 

[Beef Ravioli]

If your birth certificate says you are a female then you can play women's sports. If your birth certificate says you are a male then you cannot play women's sports. Sounds pretty simple to me. 

 

[Don't Noonan]

If your birth certificate says you are a female then you can play women's sports. If your birth certificate says you are a male then you cannot play women's sports. Sounds pretty simple to me. 

Exactly,  let's not make this complicated. 

 

[Zow]

Exactly,  let's not make this complicated. 

But you realize the issues is absurdly complicated, no? 

 

[cockroach]

Inferior

 

[Brunell4MVP]

It should be defined by birth.  You can switch your gender all you want, but your birth gender is what matters for sports.

Pretty much the only women's sports anyone cares about is a soccer final and a few swims every 4 years.  Obviously the women, girls and parents care while they participate.  So that's where the question comes in.  But 99.9% of us in DC would rather have a quarter than have the Washington Mystics win the WNBA championship.

 

[EYLive]

Exactly,  let's not make this complicated. 

The problem arises when a female begins transitioning to male, takes testosterone and alters the muscle/bone structure yet is forced to compete against females because of the birth certificate.

 

[need2know]

Women play sports?

 

[EYLive]

I think any gender should be allowed to try-out and compete in male sports, but only non-transitioning females should be allowed to compete against females. Any hormone therapy or surgery disqualifies a person from womens sports.

 

[EYLive]

Women play sports?

They play the hell out of beach volleyball.  

 

[Wrigley]

Women play sports?

Met my wife playing co-ed softball 

 

[Beef Ravioli]

The problem arises when a female begins transitioning to male, takes testosterone and alters the muscle/bone structure yet is forced to compete against females because of the birth certificate.

Then they are disqualified from playing women's sports. 

 

[Franknbeans]

Met my wife playing co-ed softball 

we'll allow it

 

[Dedfin]

Let's just limit women's sports to cleaning and baking.

 

[rockaction]

Sort of curious, aside from the obvious stereotypes and asides, exactly how this gets resolved. 

Before somebody steps in says "no big deal either way," why don't we limit the debate to the parameters that we do indeed need to resolve this instead of letting it unfold naturally.  

 

[EYLive]

Then they are disqualified from playing women's sports. 

That's how I'd rule it. Although a firestorm of outrage and hottakes will likely follow if this played out in real life (and it probably already has).

 

[Dedfin]

That's how I'd rule it. Although a firestorm of outrage and hottakes will likely follow if this played out in real life (and it probably already has).

  YOU are on the hottake side here.

 

[rockaction]

  YOU are on the hottake side here.

How so? He's asking for a biological definition of sex in order for participation. How is that a hot take?  

 

[dickey moe]

By the size of their knockers.

 

[The General]

If a woman can compete with the men she should play with them. If she can't cut it then stay in the lesser skilled women's division.

 

[James Daulton]

Naturally on the Offdee scale.  Tennis at the top, women's shot put at the bottom.

 

[Chadstroma]

I kid you not.... on the radio yesterday they were talking about a girls team that was not allowed to play because a 'girl' was said not to be a 'girl'. There was a quick interview of the 'girl' and they were saying it was only because 'she' didn't look like a 'girl' because of short hair etc.

I use the quotation marks because I still have no idea if this was a girl who was mistaken for a boy or a transgender thing.

There are things in life that shouldn't be confusing.

 

[rockaction]

I kid you not.... on the radio yesterday they were talking about a girls team that was not allowed to play because a 'girl' was said not to be a 'girl'. There was a quick interview of the 'girl' and they were saying it was only because 'she' didn't look like a 'girl' because of short hair etc.

I use the quotation marks because I still have no idea if this was a girl who was mistaken for a boy or a transgender thing.

There are things in life that shouldn't be confusing.

Yet they are. And confusing laws make for confusing stuff. 

Why should logical enterprises end up anywhere but?  

 

[MarvinTScamper]

The problem arises when a female begins transitioning to male, takes testosterone and alters the muscle/bone structure yet is forced to compete against females because of the birth certificate.

Or, they don't get to compete, because of the unfair advantages created.  

 

[Cowboysfan8]

Or, they don't get to compete, because of the unfair advantages created.  

It really doesn't have to be any more complicated than this 

 

[RokNRole]

https://www.google.com/amp/www.marieclaire.com/culture/gmp3065/transgender-facts-figures/

According to these statistics there are approximately 700k transgenders in the US. The number may be considerably higher due to unreported statistics. Currently unable to find out what percentage  of them have actually undergone a surgical and hormonal transition but I imagine it's a very small fraction of the overall population that just identifies as transgender.

With the trends we are seeing it may not be too far in the future until there are enough athletes to create their own transgender leagues......although that all depends if the profit potential is there.

I will have to agree with scamper that for the time being they will have to accept not competing. They can choose gender reassignment or sports. Nobodies individual rights are important enough if it infringes on other people's rights.

Once the population is their they can form the HSNBA 

 

[TakiToki]

I don't believe defining girls'/women's eligibility requirements is easy. But I think boys'/men's descriptors should be dropped in the amateur arena. In my opinion, there is no good reason for those such as Serena Williams, Brittney Griner and Annika Sorenstam to have restrictions as to against whom they may compete. They are elite athletes, and should have been afforded the opportunity to compete against the best throughout their formative years.

I believe the top level of any sport should be open with no restrictions of any sort.  Then there are decisions to be made with respect to the lower levels. You can restrict by sex, size, skill or some combination thereof to allow for the diversity of competition.

 

[MarvinTScamper]

I don't believe defining girls'/women's eligibility requirements is easy. But I think boys'/men's descriptors should be dropped in the amateur arena. In my opinion, there is no good reason for those such as Serena Williams, Brittney Griner and Annika Sorenstam to have restrictions as to against whom they may compete. They are elite athletes, and should have been afforded the opportunity to compete against the best throughout their formative years.

I believe the top level of any sport should be open with no restrictions of any sort.  Then there are decisions to be made with respect to the lower levels. You can restrict by sex, size, skill or some combination thereof to allow for the diversity of competition.

Do whatever, but these top female athletes don't compete in men's because then they aren't the top of anything anymore.  This has been discussed and proven ad nauseum

 

[RokNRole]

I don't believe defining girls'/women's eligibility requirements is easy. But I think boys'/men's descriptors should be dropped in the amateur arena. In my opinion, there is no good reason for those such as Serena Williams, Brittney Griner and Annika Sorenstam to have restrictions as to against whom they may compete. They are elite athletes, and should have been afforded the opportunity to compete against the best throughout their formative years.

I believe the top level of any sport should be open with no restrictions of any sort.  Then there are decisions to be made with respect to the lower levels. You can restrict by sex, size, skill or some combination thereof to allow for the diversity of competition.

Wouldn't that be allowing unfair privelages for certain athletes? How does one determine who gets to compete against men?

 

[EYLive]

I don't believe defining girls'/women's eligibility requirements is easy. But I think boys'/men's descriptors should be dropped in the amateur arena. In my opinion, there is no good reason for those such as Serena Williams, Brittney Griner and Annika Sorenstam to have restrictions as to against whom they may compete.

I don't think there are restrictions on women compete with men in most leagues. 

 

[MarvinTScamper]

I don't think there are restrictions on women compete with men in most leagues. 

Why would there be?  This is like asking why 7th graders aren't allowed to go pro.  

 

[RokNRole]

I don't think there are restrictions on women compete with men in most leagues. 

In non contact sports right?

 

[captain_amazing]

The gender gap between males and females is shrinking from what it once was.  So social constructs that were built on the idea of males and females, say 50-100 years ago, are going to be problematic in a world where things aren't so black and white. 

I know this is unpopular, but let everyone compete with everyone else regardless of biological sex or gender identity.  I honestly think that's the road we're headed down anyway.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I truly don't care.  If a biological male wants to cross over to play women's sports, whatever.  If a biological female can compete and earn a legitimate spot on a male sports team good for her.

 

[William Munny]

If your birth certificate says you are a female then you can play women's sports. If your birth certificate says you are a male then you cannot play women's sports. Sounds pretty simple to me. 

Hard to believe this is being taken serious by people. 

 

[rockaction]

I truly don't care.  If a biological male wants to cross over to play women's sports, whatever.  If a biological female can compete and earn a legitimate spot on a male sports team good for her.

It's fine that you don't care, IK, but a lot of people do. From both the right and the left. They view it as important, too. 

see: a million crew programs for women to save football at schools in the name of Title IX; soccer moms as a political class, even; coed leagues in youth sports to avoid this issue; etc. Interscholastic and interscholastic amateur sports have always been defined by sex. Once gender entered in, it was bound to upset the apple cart. It's easy to do away with THE QUESTION, as it were, so as to keep things neatly theoretical, but THE QUESTION is not going away by those that push it.  Amateur sports will exist and it will be publicly-based. 

 

[IvanKaramazov]

It's fine that you don't care, IK, but a lot of people do. From both the right and the left. They view it as important, too. 

see: a million crew programs for women to save football at schools in the name of Title IX; soccer moms as a political class, even; coed leagues in youth sports to avoid this issue; etc. Interscholastic and interscholastic amateur sports have always been defined by sex. Once gender entered in, it was bound to upset the apple cart. It's easy to do away with THE QUESTION, as it were, so as to keep things neatly theoretical, but THE QUESTION is not going away by those that push it.  Amateur sports will exist and it will be publicly-based. 

This situation is a little different than how I took the OP.  It is a fact of life that women don't go out for competitive sports at the same rate that men do, and that's fine.  It is a mis-application of Title IX to use that fact as an axe to cut men's sports.  I don't think football has been a target, but I know sports like wrestling and men's soccer have been.