bulger2holt
Footballguy
Should the Rams take TE Gresham at #33 if he makes it that far ? Bradford / Gresham combo wouldn't be bad.
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How Sold are you on Bradford? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter ty247
- Start date
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writ...lbag/index.html
When rumors get thrown out at this time of the draft year, you have to take them with not a grain of salt, but with a salt-shaker. I usually do. But not when Gil Brandt speaks. He is money on the draft, and he knows things the rest of us don't. And he said something today on our Sirius NFL Radio show that made my eyelids hit the ceiling regarding Oklahoma quarterback Sam Bradford, who most of the western world has already assigned to St. Louis with the first pick in the April 22 first round.
"I think there's a 49-percent chance he ends up in Washington,'' Brandt told me and Randy Cross.
Hmmmm. The Rams, desperate for a quarterback, pick first. The Redskins, desperate for a quarterback, pick fourth. Sound familiar? 2004 draft, Chargers picking first, Giants fourth, and they both need quarterbacks of the future (though, in retrospect, that might have been an invented need for the Chargers, with Drew Brees on the roster). San Diego picked Eli Manning number one, and the Giants chose Philip Rivers number four, and while the Rivers pick was being walked up to the commissioner in New York, the two teams were finishing work on a trade. They swapped quarterbacks, and the Giants sent a third-round pick in 2004, and first- and fifth-round picks in 2005, to San Diego as part of the trade.
The Redskins have an owner willing to do anything to help his team, so he's not going to stand in the way of dealing a ton to St. Louis for the pick -- if football braintrust Mike Shanahan and Bruce Allen think it's a smart idea. But if the Rams were to do this, they'd have to be sure Jimmy Clausen (or Tim Tebow or Colt McCoy) would be an adequate replacement for Marc Bulger.
For the record, the Redskins don't have a third- or sixth-round pick this year, and they have no compensatory choices. They have their first-round pick (fourth overall), second (37th), fourth (103rd), fifth (135th) and seventh (211th) in house.
My money's on the 51 percent of Brandt's prediction here. I can't see the Rams passing on a player I hear they absolutely love -- unless the treasure trove they get in return could set them up with the first- and second-rounders here, plus a one next year, and they'd also have to love Clausen. Those are some very big ifs.
But I'll also have my antennae up in the coming weeks, because Brandt is Brandt, the godfather of the draft.
When rumors get thrown out at this time of the draft year, you have to take them with not a grain of salt, but with a salt-shaker. I usually do. But not when Gil Brandt speaks. He is money on the draft, and he knows things the rest of us don't. And he said something today on our Sirius NFL Radio show that made my eyelids hit the ceiling regarding Oklahoma quarterback Sam Bradford, who most of the western world has already assigned to St. Louis with the first pick in the April 22 first round.
"I think there's a 49-percent chance he ends up in Washington,'' Brandt told me and Randy Cross.
Hmmmm. The Rams, desperate for a quarterback, pick first. The Redskins, desperate for a quarterback, pick fourth. Sound familiar? 2004 draft, Chargers picking first, Giants fourth, and they both need quarterbacks of the future (though, in retrospect, that might have been an invented need for the Chargers, with Drew Brees on the roster). San Diego picked Eli Manning number one, and the Giants chose Philip Rivers number four, and while the Rivers pick was being walked up to the commissioner in New York, the two teams were finishing work on a trade. They swapped quarterbacks, and the Giants sent a third-round pick in 2004, and first- and fifth-round picks in 2005, to San Diego as part of the trade.
The Redskins have an owner willing to do anything to help his team, so he's not going to stand in the way of dealing a ton to St. Louis for the pick -- if football braintrust Mike Shanahan and Bruce Allen think it's a smart idea. But if the Rams were to do this, they'd have to be sure Jimmy Clausen (or Tim Tebow or Colt McCoy) would be an adequate replacement for Marc Bulger.
For the record, the Redskins don't have a third- or sixth-round pick this year, and they have no compensatory choices. They have their first-round pick (fourth overall), second (37th), fourth (103rd), fifth (135th) and seventh (211th) in house.
My money's on the 51 percent of Brandt's prediction here. I can't see the Rams passing on a player I hear they absolutely love -- unless the treasure trove they get in return could set them up with the first- and second-rounders here, plus a one next year, and they'd also have to love Clausen. Those are some very big ifs.
But I'll also have my antennae up in the coming weeks, because Brandt is Brandt, the godfather of the draft.
oukurt
Footballguy
I think Sam becomes an average QB in the league, but I don't think he will become a star if he lands in St Louis. He needs a go to WR. With Avery and Robinson being the best WRs in STL and no tight end worth a damn, he is going to struggle. Not to mention the Rams O Line is horrible.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
Agreed. Bradford is probably 1st, I wouldn't take Clausen until quite a bit later.
TitusIII
Footballguy
Agreed...I watched him play, in person, a half dozen times(yeah, I know that doesn't mean much), and while he is a solid prospect, he's no Suh(once in a generation type talent who will be the cog on some excellent NFL defenses). I understand why GM's feel like they MUST draft a QB with the top pick, but it's stupid to do so when the QB doesn't appear to be an elite prospect(I see a Matt Hasselbeck career being best case), and a game changer on the defensive side is available. Of course, time will tell, but Bradford is a reach at #1, and like a good percentage of teams who reach for QB's in round 1 of the NFL draft, it is likely the Rams will be kicking themselves for passing on what I expect to be a top 5-10 defensive player by year 2, and possibly THE dominant defensive player by 2013. Again, time will tell, and Bradford may have a HOF career, but I don't think they should pass up the sure thing(well, about as close to a sure thing as I've ever seen) to roll the dice on a QB. Maybe the think it will take 3-5 years to contend anyway, so waiting for SB to develop isn't an issue...but I'm getting tired of these GM's over-rating the QB's come draft day. I know the good one's are valuable assets, and don't come around that often, but if you're passing up a similar player on the defensive side of the ball, you had better as confident as possible that your project QB is going to pan out.oukurt said:
phthalatemagic
Footballguy
It takes 2 good drafts to turn an offense around. Are we not all NFL fans here? Do we not see major turnarounds on a yearly basis?oukurt said:
Donsmith753
Footballguy
oukurt said:
I also think that the STL Wr's really aren't that bad and have some potential. Avery and Robinson just need to stay healthy.
Yenrub
Footballguy
What did Bradford's stats at OU look compare to these guys?What about the physical build is he bigger than these guys?Josh Heupel and Jason White told me.How do you know it isn't HIM making the other guys around him better? Same for Manning. In my experience, great QBs make the other offensive players, especially skill players, appear better. Look at Favre in MN: suddenly Sidney Rice is a top 10 WR. I have no opinion on Bradford, but I am questioning the logic that says because he is around players perceived to be good that he might not be as good as he appears. This is circular reasoning because it could just as easily be that they are not as good and he makes them appear better. After all, that long list of names someone posted above doesn't have too many NFL superstars. Juaquin Inglesias???? I don't even know any of those other players other than Loadholt who looks to be a good offensive lineman, but I am not penciling him into Canton just yet.This is exactly my feeling with Bradford. How much of it is him and how much of it is his situation?Also add in that he was a 3*** guy coming into a great situation. I know that doesn't mean everything....but it means something IMO.
JamesTheScot
Footballguy
If he starts as a rookie behind that SL line, he'll be another Tim Couch. Shellshocked, stunted and injured.
Honda
Footballguy
I don't think so. One of the things that impressed me most about Bradford is his ability to throw on the run. 2nd would be his super quick release.
bulger2holt
Footballguy
The Rams line has a chance to be dominant if they stay healthy.
LT- Jason Smith
LG- John Greco / Hank Fraley
C- Jason Brown
RG- Jacob Bell
RT - Alex Barron
When healthy, they are very good with the potential to be great. I wouldn't mind seeing an OT and OG added in the draft for depth. The Rams have 3- 5th rounders that can be used for depth.
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oukurt
Footballguy
Have to disagree. That line is not good. Bradford will be using that quick release and ability to read coverages like he never has before. They need a WR and a TE. Is Robinson a go to WR? He is their WR1 right? Scared for my boy.
phthalatemagic
Footballguy
They aren't bad, but they don't have a dependable go to guy. That can change in a month though. If they hit on their next two drafts, we can see a drastically different team.
Jason White:Height 6-3Weight 226 lbs.Year Att Comp Pct Yds TD Int Rating2001 113 73 64.6 681 5 3 124.52002 34 20 58.8 181 1 2 101.52003 451 278 61.6 3,846 40 10 158.12004 390 255 65.4 3,205 35 9 159.4 Josh HeupelHeight: 6-1 Weight: 215At OU, Heupel won 80 percent of his games, going 20-5 as the starting quarterback, and passed for 7,456 yards and 53 touchdowns. In 1999 alone, he threw for a school-record 3,850 yards and 33 touchdowns in 12 games.Sam BradfordHeight 6-4Weight 223 lbs.YEAR CMP ATT YDS CMP% YPA LNG TD INT SACK RAT2007 237 341 3121 69.5 9.15 65 36 8 12 176.522008 328 483 4720 67.9 9.77 77 50 8 11 180.842009 39 69 562 56.5 8.15 64 2 0 2 134.51What did Bradford's stats at OU look compare to these guys?What about the physical build is he bigger than these guys?Josh Heupel and Jason White told me.How do you know it isn't HIM making the other guys around him better? Same for Manning. In my experience, great QBs make the other offensive players, especially skill players, appear better. Look at Favre in MN: suddenly Sidney Rice is a top 10 WR. I have no opinion on Bradford, but I am questioning the logic that says because he is around players perceived to be good that he might not be as good as he appears. This is circular reasoning because it could just as easily be that they are not as good and he makes them appear better. After all, that long list of names someone posted above doesn't have too many NFL superstars. Juaquin Inglesias???? I don't even know any of those other players other than Loadholt who looks to be a good offensive lineman, but I am not penciling him into Canton just yet.This is exactly my feeling with Bradford. How much of it is him and how much of it is his situation?Also add in that he was a 3*** guy coming into a great situation. I know that doesn't mean everything....but it means something IMO.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
cross-posted from rams thread, as it may be relevant... it summarizes some of my reasons for optimism, and responses to some of the questions (suh is mentioned in the end, in the context of what the rams should do at #1)...
Q - "A guy has a good pro day, and suddenly all of the question marks that had been haunting him for several months--can he make the reads, can he withstand the pro pass rush, can he succeed in a non-spread attack, how much life is in his twice surgically-repaired shoulder--are suddenly waved off."
A - "its not like he came out of nowhere...
he was in the conversation for #1 pick last year, with stafford... opinion seems to be divided here on the board who the favorite would have been, but certainly some went with bradford.
i don't think he played enough last year to point at big question marks with his ON FIELD ability and performance, if they weren't there already, based on his first two years (he almost broke grossman's frosh/soph TD record... as a freshman! ).
it was just a pro day, but it was reportedly an exceptional one. brandt called it the best he has seen, along with aikman. i think mayock said it was one of the best he has seen this decade.
the key things with bradford seem to be decisiveness, a quick release & accuracy. these are sort of attributes that you are born with, either you have them or you don't...
some of the other stuff... like taking a snap under center, he has done, if not a lot in games, and he claims they used to practice it a lot, especially earlier in his careeer at oklahoma. it is an inferential argument, but when somebody like mayock, brandt or casserly, say that he looks the part of a franchise QB, i take it as a given that isn't JUST because his pro day, they have also looked at his film, are weighing his scouting attributes, etc... i take it as a given they have factored in that he didn't have the advantage of running a pro style offense like clausen, making multiple reads... yet despite that, is STILL a better prospect. he seems like a pretty good athlete... i think roethlisberger at akron was in the shotgun a lot (?).
i'm not overly concerned he will trip when he tries to backpedal from center (not that you mentioned this, but some people in these type of situations in past questioned that taking snap under center can be a difficult transition?)... to me, taking a snap is one of the easier things i can think of that happens on a football field, AT ANY POSITION. i realize the timing, and footwork are different, as well as lines of sight and field vision POV.
it does raise an interesting question (maybe i'll start a thread)... is there a success/bust rate correlation between being groomed in college pro style attack vs. spread-types.... off the top of my head, there must be examples of each on both sides.
can he withstand the rush... along with accuracy, timing, the ability to process information quickly, having a sense a the pass rush, etc... you never really KNOW how they did in college will translate to the NFL... i think he is more accurate than any QB i have seen in the past 3-4 classes (in reverse chronological order... stafford, sanchez, ryan, flacco, russell, etc... three of these guys took their teams to the playoffs AS ROOKIES (ATL was a shock, but of course BAL & NYJ had better teams than the rams when they took their rookie QB).
as to the shoulder, how can we judge if we aren't doctors... i have to trust the medical staff... they could make a mistake, and say he is fine and than look foolish if he is hurt. they could also be wrong if they are overly conservative and he stars for the next 15 years for another team. andrews has said it is not an issue. not just that it is ok NOW, but as in he is in no greater appreciable risk to suffer another shoulder injury any other QB would be to have a first injury. maybe his testimony is tainted and suspect, as he did the operation... but his rep and his credibility is contingent on being neutral and unbiased... if that is called into question, his opinion won't be any good (though his surgical skills would still be in demand )... and andrews was just one doctor that looked at him... he was gone over with a fine-tooth comb at the combine, and by all accounts, his shoulder isn't a concern.
he does have two shoulder injuries, but only one surgery... it was an AC joint reconstruction, which i don't think is as serious as the torn rotator cuff/labrum-type. and his second injury happened because he probably wasn't fully healed.
i don't really like the options at QB in 2nd round... no guarantee rams are locked into a chance at a franchise QB next year... what if a QB gets hurt (like a shoulder injury )... or underwhelms... what if locker & mallett escape these, and go 1-2, and we are 3? lot of ways that could go wrong... so put it off until 2012... oh, but what if that QB didn't come from pro style attack, and is too much risk for a high pick? maybe wait until 2013... but it takes a year or two to develope and be more competitive, usually growing pains with virtually all rookie QBs other than marino & roesthlisberger (elway, aikman, manning, etc)... so maybe they have somebody functional by 2014-2015? and it has already been 3 BRUTAL years (6 wins in 48 games)...
i said elsewhere, but with the rams having one of the worst QB siuations in the league for a few years, to go through a three year stretch drafting 2, 2 & 1 and NOT come away with a franchise QB (effectively passing on ryan, sanchez and bradford) is completely incomprehensible to me (suh's potential greatness notwithstanding).
while on subject of suh, it is at least as long an odds that suh becomes one of the best overall defenders in the league, as it is for bradford to become a top 8-10 QB (which puts you in playoff contention if you have enough of the other pieces of the puzzle).
i could be way off, but i wrote in the mcnabb trade thread that i think QB is central to the offense in a way that there isn't an analogous position on defense... a good defense can be put together without an all pro DT. but if the rams continue to have no future at the most important position on the field, the offense will continue to be a nightmare, the kind you don't wake up from.
* another reason i am high on braford... his constellation of intangibles (presence, leadership, work ethic) seems similar to recent successes ryan, stafford and sanchez. if he fails, it won't be because he didn't work at it, unlike russell... when you couple his work ethic and leadership with some of his other positives (accuracy, quick release), that should be a potent combo.
sanchez may have had a question about his knee (devaney recently alluded to this, & i thought he was referring to BEFORE 2009 draft), and he did hurt his knee last season. ryan had questions because he threw a lot of INTs his last year... virtually all rookie QBs are going to have some questions... was it really any less a roll of the dice on sanchez... the track record of early entry juniors not that great... he had very few starts under his belt, etc."
* addendum...
a word on the rams OL & skill position players in recent years...
due to a combination of factors, the rams have been horrific on offense in recent years. bulger is shellshocked, and can't stare down the gun barrell like he used to... he never had very good mobility... boller has for most of his career been ordinary, and with null, highly likely wouldn't start for any of the other 32 teams.
STL has had a lot of injuries along the OL and to WRs during that same time, compounding the timing problems.
it is possible the OL isn't as bad as is commonly thought. #2 overall pick jason smith was playing well before having a concussion late in the season and being shut down. bell played better in 2009 than 2008, and was a functional OG during his TEN stint. center jason brown was one of the top graded free agents in the class of '09. incognito was cut at RG (greco or fraley would compete for that spot as of today), but they have barron at the other OT... he isn't known as a great drive blocker in the run game, and makes a lot of offsides penalties, but hasn't actually given up a lot of sacks in recent years... he isn't super aggressive tempermentally and may not have a great passion for the game, but he is athletic and has good feet for a big man. in the future, RG and RT are not the kind of positions that require high 1st round picks to plug in. if the OL can avoid the injury bug, they could begin to look a lot more competent. i think spags is trying to build a strong run blocking OL, which would take pressure off of bradford. jackson did have 1,400+ rushing yards (while gutting out an injury for good part of the season), so there is some evidence that they made strides in that department last year.
their WRs are names like avery, robinson, burton & gibson, not a very distinguished group... the first three have been hurt a lot... avery said he will report to camp 10 or more pounds heavier, which might make him more resilient... but clearly, if the rams do take bradford, they will want to surround him with better receiving weapons... they reportedly coveted hakeem nicks and were trying to move up for him when the giants grabbed him, and they "settled" for laurinaitis. there is no doubt in my mind they will upgrade at WR in the future, and that includes a pass catching TE (a young QBs best friend).
in just the next two years, between drafts, free agency & trades, the way the rams offense is constituted could look far different. imo, it would be a mistake to think that the pieces currently in place are what bradford will have to work with for his entire career. since usually you don't count on young QBs to put up massive production in first few years (more to be groomed for future, in dynasty leagues), by the time he would be ready anyways, his supporting cast and surrounding talent could have received a dramatic makeover.
and in the meantime, bradford and the rams can lean heavily on steven jackson, one of the most talented RBs in the league.
Q - "A guy has a good pro day, and suddenly all of the question marks that had been haunting him for several months--can he make the reads, can he withstand the pro pass rush, can he succeed in a non-spread attack, how much life is in his twice surgically-repaired shoulder--are suddenly waved off."
A - "its not like he came out of nowhere...
he was in the conversation for #1 pick last year, with stafford... opinion seems to be divided here on the board who the favorite would have been, but certainly some went with bradford.
i don't think he played enough last year to point at big question marks with his ON FIELD ability and performance, if they weren't there already, based on his first two years (he almost broke grossman's frosh/soph TD record... as a freshman! ).
it was just a pro day, but it was reportedly an exceptional one. brandt called it the best he has seen, along with aikman. i think mayock said it was one of the best he has seen this decade.
the key things with bradford seem to be decisiveness, a quick release & accuracy. these are sort of attributes that you are born with, either you have them or you don't...
some of the other stuff... like taking a snap under center, he has done, if not a lot in games, and he claims they used to practice it a lot, especially earlier in his careeer at oklahoma. it is an inferential argument, but when somebody like mayock, brandt or casserly, say that he looks the part of a franchise QB, i take it as a given that isn't JUST because his pro day, they have also looked at his film, are weighing his scouting attributes, etc... i take it as a given they have factored in that he didn't have the advantage of running a pro style offense like clausen, making multiple reads... yet despite that, is STILL a better prospect. he seems like a pretty good athlete... i think roethlisberger at akron was in the shotgun a lot (?).
i'm not overly concerned he will trip when he tries to backpedal from center (not that you mentioned this, but some people in these type of situations in past questioned that taking snap under center can be a difficult transition?)... to me, taking a snap is one of the easier things i can think of that happens on a football field, AT ANY POSITION. i realize the timing, and footwork are different, as well as lines of sight and field vision POV.
it does raise an interesting question (maybe i'll start a thread)... is there a success/bust rate correlation between being groomed in college pro style attack vs. spread-types.... off the top of my head, there must be examples of each on both sides.
can he withstand the rush... along with accuracy, timing, the ability to process information quickly, having a sense a the pass rush, etc... you never really KNOW how they did in college will translate to the NFL... i think he is more accurate than any QB i have seen in the past 3-4 classes (in reverse chronological order... stafford, sanchez, ryan, flacco, russell, etc... three of these guys took their teams to the playoffs AS ROOKIES (ATL was a shock, but of course BAL & NYJ had better teams than the rams when they took their rookie QB).
as to the shoulder, how can we judge if we aren't doctors... i have to trust the medical staff... they could make a mistake, and say he is fine and than look foolish if he is hurt. they could also be wrong if they are overly conservative and he stars for the next 15 years for another team. andrews has said it is not an issue. not just that it is ok NOW, but as in he is in no greater appreciable risk to suffer another shoulder injury any other QB would be to have a first injury. maybe his testimony is tainted and suspect, as he did the operation... but his rep and his credibility is contingent on being neutral and unbiased... if that is called into question, his opinion won't be any good (though his surgical skills would still be in demand )... and andrews was just one doctor that looked at him... he was gone over with a fine-tooth comb at the combine, and by all accounts, his shoulder isn't a concern.
he does have two shoulder injuries, but only one surgery... it was an AC joint reconstruction, which i don't think is as serious as the torn rotator cuff/labrum-type. and his second injury happened because he probably wasn't fully healed.
i don't really like the options at QB in 2nd round... no guarantee rams are locked into a chance at a franchise QB next year... what if a QB gets hurt (like a shoulder injury )... or underwhelms... what if locker & mallett escape these, and go 1-2, and we are 3? lot of ways that could go wrong... so put it off until 2012... oh, but what if that QB didn't come from pro style attack, and is too much risk for a high pick? maybe wait until 2013... but it takes a year or two to develope and be more competitive, usually growing pains with virtually all rookie QBs other than marino & roesthlisberger (elway, aikman, manning, etc)... so maybe they have somebody functional by 2014-2015? and it has already been 3 BRUTAL years (6 wins in 48 games)...
i said elsewhere, but with the rams having one of the worst QB siuations in the league for a few years, to go through a three year stretch drafting 2, 2 & 1 and NOT come away with a franchise QB (effectively passing on ryan, sanchez and bradford) is completely incomprehensible to me (suh's potential greatness notwithstanding).
while on subject of suh, it is at least as long an odds that suh becomes one of the best overall defenders in the league, as it is for bradford to become a top 8-10 QB (which puts you in playoff contention if you have enough of the other pieces of the puzzle).
i could be way off, but i wrote in the mcnabb trade thread that i think QB is central to the offense in a way that there isn't an analogous position on defense... a good defense can be put together without an all pro DT. but if the rams continue to have no future at the most important position on the field, the offense will continue to be a nightmare, the kind you don't wake up from.
* another reason i am high on braford... his constellation of intangibles (presence, leadership, work ethic) seems similar to recent successes ryan, stafford and sanchez. if he fails, it won't be because he didn't work at it, unlike russell... when you couple his work ethic and leadership with some of his other positives (accuracy, quick release), that should be a potent combo.
sanchez may have had a question about his knee (devaney recently alluded to this, & i thought he was referring to BEFORE 2009 draft), and he did hurt his knee last season. ryan had questions because he threw a lot of INTs his last year... virtually all rookie QBs are going to have some questions... was it really any less a roll of the dice on sanchez... the track record of early entry juniors not that great... he had very few starts under his belt, etc."
* addendum...
a word on the rams OL & skill position players in recent years...
due to a combination of factors, the rams have been horrific on offense in recent years. bulger is shellshocked, and can't stare down the gun barrell like he used to... he never had very good mobility... boller has for most of his career been ordinary, and with null, highly likely wouldn't start for any of the other 32 teams.
STL has had a lot of injuries along the OL and to WRs during that same time, compounding the timing problems.
it is possible the OL isn't as bad as is commonly thought. #2 overall pick jason smith was playing well before having a concussion late in the season and being shut down. bell played better in 2009 than 2008, and was a functional OG during his TEN stint. center jason brown was one of the top graded free agents in the class of '09. incognito was cut at RG (greco or fraley would compete for that spot as of today), but they have barron at the other OT... he isn't known as a great drive blocker in the run game, and makes a lot of offsides penalties, but hasn't actually given up a lot of sacks in recent years... he isn't super aggressive tempermentally and may not have a great passion for the game, but he is athletic and has good feet for a big man. in the future, RG and RT are not the kind of positions that require high 1st round picks to plug in. if the OL can avoid the injury bug, they could begin to look a lot more competent. i think spags is trying to build a strong run blocking OL, which would take pressure off of bradford. jackson did have 1,400+ rushing yards (while gutting out an injury for good part of the season), so there is some evidence that they made strides in that department last year.
their WRs are names like avery, robinson, burton & gibson, not a very distinguished group... the first three have been hurt a lot... avery said he will report to camp 10 or more pounds heavier, which might make him more resilient... but clearly, if the rams do take bradford, they will want to surround him with better receiving weapons... they reportedly coveted hakeem nicks and were trying to move up for him when the giants grabbed him, and they "settled" for laurinaitis. there is no doubt in my mind they will upgrade at WR in the future, and that includes a pass catching TE (a young QBs best friend).
in just the next two years, between drafts, free agency & trades, the way the rams offense is constituted could look far different. imo, it would be a mistake to think that the pieces currently in place are what bradford will have to work with for his entire career. since usually you don't count on young QBs to put up massive production in first few years (more to be groomed for future, in dynasty leagues), by the time he would be ready anyways, his supporting cast and surrounding talent could have received a dramatic makeover.
and in the meantime, bradford and the rams can lean heavily on steven jackson, one of the most talented RBs in the league.
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I'd be shocked if he does, despite people down-playing things with Gresham.He's a once every 3 years type prospect at TE. I'll be watching him fall to me in every rookie draft.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
bell is a LG... dominant is kind of speculative at this point (you did say has a chance), but the odds are probably against... if only because few OLs end up being dominant...i kind of agree the left side is promising... smith was a #2 overall pick, physical specimen and athlete, has great intensity, passion for the game and seemingly the right temperment/constitution/makeup/profile to be outstanding... but it isn't a given he will be great and not just good... he did seem to come on at end of season and flash serious potential and ability, that would translate well to the NFL, but than was shut down with the concussion. bell doesn't look dominant to me (maybe he looked better in TEN because he had better surrounding talent?), but is clearly better than who they have at RG... not sure if brown is pro bowl caliber center, but i think he may be top 5-10 in the league? greco didn't really distinguish himself last season (but in the opposite case of bell in TEN, maybe he is better than he looks with better supporting cast?)... fraley is older, and sounds from scouting reports that his talent/skill level at this stage of his career could be characterized as marginal starter/quality backup-level... barron is not dominant... it is debateable whether he is even average... by pretty much any measure, he has been a disappointing 1st rounder, and doesn't appear to be in their future plans...the good news is, even if STL needs a RT and RG (i think they could definitely stand upgrades there), those can be gotten with lower draft picks, and more cheaply in free agency and by trade. and the left side of the line, could be very good, especially if smith fulfills his potential (he was drafted in large part on athleticism and intangibles, and in spite of, not because of his level of competition... shouldn't have come as too much of a shock that it might take more than a year to mature, develop & become more technically refined, etc... this is often true even for top LT prospects with fewer level of competition concerns).
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Bob Magaw
Footballguy
you could be right... if you look at the rams failure to develop prospects from pretty much every position, you could say that is a harsh indictment of the entire rams coaching staffs and respective positional coaches at virtually every position, extending back over the past decade.HOW ACCURATE IS BRADFORD... relative to the other similarly top graded prospects in past decade?russ lande called him the most accurate QB he has EVER broken down.* since all QBs face the same critically important, bottom line question faced with ALL QBs transitioning from college to pro...ie - can they throw decisive strikes downfield against the more fearsome rush of more talented, experienced and more challenging NFL-caliber rushers...wouldn't you rather take your chances with a QB who has extraordinary accuracy (who also seems to have outstanding intangibles)?Bri said:
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bulger2holt
Footballguy
Good stuff, thanks. As I said, hopefully with the three 5th rounders they can address OG. That seems likely this year.
benson_will_lead_the_way
Footballguy
Doesn't look like a ton better than the others....when you compare where they will be drafted.Jason White:Height 6-3Weight 226 lbs.Year Att Comp Pct Yds TD Int Rating2001 113 73 64.6 681 5 3 124.52002 34 20 58.8 181 1 2 101.52003 451 278 61.6 3,846 40 10 158.12004 390 255 65.4 3,205 35 9 159.4 Josh HeupelHeight: 6-1 Weight: 215At OU, Heupel won 80 percent of his games, going 20-5 as the starting quarterback, and passed for 7,456 yards and 53 touchdowns. In 1999 alone, he threw for a school-record 3,850 yards and 33 touchdowns in 12 games.Sam BradfordHeight 6-4Weight 223 lbs.YEAR CMP ATT YDS CMP% YPA LNG TD INT SACK RAT2007 237 341 3121 69.5 9.15 65 36 8 12 176.522008 328 483 4720 67.9 9.77 77 50 8 11 180.842009 39 69 562 56.5 8.15 64 2 0 2 134.51What did Bradford's stats at OU look compare to these guys?What about the physical build is he bigger than these guys?Josh Heupel and Jason White told me.This is exactly my feeling with Bradford. How much of it is him and how much of it is his situation?Also add in that he was a 3*** guy coming into a great situation. I know that doesn't mean everything....but it means something IMO.
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
I watched all but two or three games he played in college and he shouldn't be compared to the other OU Qbs. From the beginning he showed the ability to make throws and dissect defenses better than almost any QB at the college level I had ever seen. During the Heupel and White eras they ran an offense very similiar to what OU ran last year with Landry Jones. Lots of bubble screens, RB screens, jet slants and drag routes. With Bradford OU threw exponentially more 10-15 yard routes, posts and deep outs from the far hashmark. White and Heupel just couldn't make those throws, and they usually didn't even try.
He will be an above average NFL QB at worst IMO, and I'm not just saying that as a homer. I think Colt McCoy will be an above average NFL QB also FWIW.
He will be an above average NFL QB at worst IMO, and I'm not just saying that as a homer. I think Colt McCoy will be an above average NFL QB also FWIW.
bigern1000
Footballguy
While nothing in life is guaranteed, I think now the McNabb deal pretty much takes WAS out of the possible Bradford running... 
4700 yards, 50 TDs and a 180 rating as a sophomore isn't a ton better? Heupel & White were great college QBs but there's no comparison here.
lyon812
Footballguy
It's interesting to go back and read the "Sam Bradford vs. Matt Stafford" thread from Dec 2008.
http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...howtopic=450576
http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...howtopic=450576
benson_will_lead_the_way
Footballguy
B/c 3,800 and 40 td's isn't close? The point is Oklahoma has a system that produces gaudy numbers for QB's. That is all I am pointing out b/c that along with Bradford's past injuries and lack of great arm strength are reasons I question his effectiveness at the next level.4700 yards, 50 TDs and a 180 rating as a sophomore isn't a ton better? Heupel & White were great college QBs but there's no comparison here.
No, it's not.B/c 3,800 and 40 td's isn't close?4700 yards, 50 TDs and a 180 rating as a sophomore isn't a ton better? Heupel & White were great college QBs but there's no comparison here.
benson_will_lead_the_way
Footballguy
Lets see Bradford is worth the 1.1......but Jason White putting up numbers 900 yards shy and 10 TD's less is an undrafted FA. I am boggled by you not seeing a point here. Oklahoma has a great setup.....great weapons....OL...TE.....Defense.....weak defenses within conference....and it shows QB after QB. Why shoudl people believe Bradford is any different from a Matt Leinart(elite talent around him and situation)?Christo said:No, it's not.benson_will_lead_the_way said:B/c 3,800 and 40 td's isn't close?4700 yards, 50 TDs and a 180 rating as a sophomore isn't a ton better? Heupel & White were great college QBs but there's no comparison here.
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
Some compare him to Matt Ryan in that department and almost all the scouts said his arm strength was good to very good. Rams seem to like his arm:benson_will_lead_the_way said:B/c 3,800 and 40 td's isn't close? The point is Oklahoma has a system that produces gaudy numbers for QB's. That is all I am pointing out b/c that along with Bradford's past injuries and lack of great arm strength are reasons I question his effectiveness at the next level.
Not everyone is going to have a Jeff George arm. Bradford is extremely accuarte, extremely intelligent and he's willing to put in the hard work to be great. In the end though arm strength is a distant 2nd to an NFL Qbs success, what goes on between the ears is easily more important and Bradford has those assets. There are probably 5-7 QBs in the NFL with a stronger arm than Peyton Manning, doesn't seem to bother him. Luckily the Colts didn't draft the elite arm in Leaf...
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Well, you are boggled. But it has nothing to do with me. If all you can do is look at the numbers (which aren't nearly as comparable as you think they are) to make your assessment then I can't help you.Lets see Bradford is worth the 1.1......but Jason White putting up numbers 900 yards shy and 10 TD's less is an undrafted FA. I am boggled by you not seeing a point here. Oklahoma has a great setup.....great weapons....OL...TE.....Defense.....weak defenses within conference....and it shows QB after QB. Why shoudl people believe Bradford is any different from a Matt Leinart(elite talent around him and situation)?Christo said:No, it's not.benson_will_lead_the_way said:B/c 3,800 and 40 td's isn't close?
benson_will_lead_the_way
Footballguy
Doctor
I agree with everything that you said. I am not saying he has a terrible arm(Pennington)...just saying its not great. How will that shoulder hold up over the duration of his career...which will affect that arm strength.
I just don't like drafting a guy in a great system b/c how good is HE....compared to the situation? Look at Penn State in the early 2000's. Great defense...Lavar Arrington, Jimmy Kennedy, Michael Haynes(all were 1st round picks), then Anthony Adams(2nd round pick). They all had a great thing going....then to the NFL and they didn't pan out.
Matt Leinart...same thing. JaMarcus had a great team around him...Mark Sanchez still has the jury out.
It is something else to consider is all im saying.
I completely agree that what happens upstairs is the #1 thing by far for QB's. That quick reaction to a saftey inverting is the difference between an INT and a completion.
I agree with everything that you said. I am not saying he has a terrible arm(Pennington)...just saying its not great. How will that shoulder hold up over the duration of his career...which will affect that arm strength.
I just don't like drafting a guy in a great system b/c how good is HE....compared to the situation? Look at Penn State in the early 2000's. Great defense...Lavar Arrington, Jimmy Kennedy, Michael Haynes(all were 1st round picks), then Anthony Adams(2nd round pick). They all had a great thing going....then to the NFL and they didn't pan out.
Matt Leinart...same thing. JaMarcus had a great team around him...Mark Sanchez still has the jury out.
It is something else to consider is all im saying.
I completely agree that what happens upstairs is the #1 thing by far for QB's. That quick reaction to a saftey inverting is the difference between an INT and a completion.
benson_will_lead_the_way
Footballguy
I stated much more than numbers in that statement.Well, you are boggled. But it has nothing to do with me. If all you can do is look at the numbers (which aren't nearly as comparable as you think they are) to make your assessment then I can't help you.Lets see Bradford is worth the 1.1......but Jason White putting up numbers 900 yards shy and 10 TD's less is an undrafted FA. I am boggled by you not seeing a point here. Oklahoma has a great setup.....great weapons....OL...TE.....Defense.....weak defenses within conference....and it shows QB after QB. Why shoudl people believe Bradford is any different from a Matt Leinart(elite talent around him and situation)?Christo said:No, it's not.benson_will_lead_the_way said:B/c 3,800 and 40 td's isn't close?4700 yards, 50 TDs and a 180 rating as a sophomore isn't a ton better? Heupel & White were great college QBs but there's no comparison here.
And the sky is blue outside my office right now. That doesn't make it relevant. Anyone who knows anything about Jason White knows that his knees were shot. He also had better WRs. They are just not comparable.Oh, just for my curiosity, why did you choose to compare Bradford to Leinart rather than Sanchez or even Palmer? FTR, neither Bradford nor White had the same talent at WR as any of those guys.
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benson_will_lead_the_way
Footballguy
Post 82 has all of those names included, except for Palmer....who I feel wasn't in the same football factory as many USC teams since him.Yes Jason White's knees were shot....I know this. I am just saying I see a huge advantage being a QB at OU or USC as any other school in the country. How good is that QB vs the situation? orTell me why Bradford is so much better than QB's previously at those school when they had that significant talent differential and why he should be the 1.1.This can be constructive, instead of insults.
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
Well Brees, all the Miami guys and all the Michigan guys were system QBs also . It works both ways, and Oklahoma's system is a pro style offense. I see your argument but IMO it doesn't apply to Bradford and comparing him to any QB that preceded him at OU is a mistake. Trust me, this guy was very different. He's one of the best college QBs I've ever seen when keeping potential beyond the NCAA in mind. If he can add weight (he's doing it already) and he can avoid any major injuries, I'm 100 percent sure he will be successful at the NFL level. He just gets it without hesitation the way only a few guys at 21/22 do.
Plenty of posters in this thread have stated plenty of reasons.
My question about Bradford is how will he respond to defensive pressure. It's easy to play catch with your wr when there is no one in your face. The couple of games (Texas & Florida) where he was pressured he was an entirely different qb.
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
Here were his numbers against Florida:
Code:
C/ATT YDS AVG TD INTS. Bradford 26/41 256 6.2 2 2
Code:
C/ATT YDS AVG TD INTS. Bradford 28/39 387 9.9 5 2
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benson_will_lead_the_way
Footballguy
And you are not one of them.
benson_will_lead_the_way
Footballguy
harbaugh, grbac, tom brady, brian griese, chad henne....much better track record for QB's than OU."Pro Style Offense" is very hard to define now if you think about it. Does that mean a lot of I form....does that mean under the center...etc. Lots of NFL teams are shotgun oriented now....or at least most of the hurry up, 2 minute, passing situations are out of the shotgun.I like Bradford....I just think he should have more caution to the wind due to a few factors. But I like his accuracy a lot.....really seems to pinpoint where he wants to lead receivers after the catch....which leads to big plays. Brees did so much with not much talent around him....John standeford....lol.
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
Oh no
He still looked pretty good against them:UF 26 of 41 (63.4%) for 256 yards, 2 TDs and 2 Ints.UT 28 of 39 (71.8%) for 387 yards, 5 TDs and 2 Ints (2008)UT 21 of 32 (65.6%) for 244 yards, 3 TDs and 0 Ints. (2007)
Here's the deal. This is a message board. When the case has already been made by other posters it's not necessary for me to repeat everything just for your benefit.
benson_will_lead_the_way
Footballguy
Welcome to the ignore list...trying to treat me like im new around here so you get some kind of false entitlement doesn't fly in my book.
Cassius
Footballguy
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
You forgot Todd Collins and Drew Hensen. Prior to Stoops OU ran the option or the Blake run it and fumble offense so they obviously are not going to have the legacy Michigan had. Also consider where those Michigan qbs went in the NFL draft compared to the relative success they've had in the NFL. Again, all of them were said to not only be products of a system, but the benefactors of great lines. To me the only real caution with Bradford is something that is hard to predict/control and that is injuries.
Stats compiled during garbage time don't impress me. I'm not saying Bradford will be a bust, but that he's untested when he has to move in the pocket. Even during his pro day he did not make any throws while moving around the pocket. Do they know something that they don't want scouts to see? I dunno.Here were his numbers against Florida:Florida had a good gameplan and OU's offensive coordinator made some really questionable decisions in this game. Bradford made a couple of bad throws like the one on the goaline just before the half, but he played well enough to win that day. What Texas game? The one last year where he was hurt? The one where he was knocked out? Did you miss the OU/Texas game in 2008 with Orakpo and the stacked Texas D? Sounds like you might have missed it so here is a recap:Oklahoma PassingCode:C/ATT YDS AVG TD INTS. Bradford 26/41 256 6.2 2 2I can list all the other games where he shredded defenses also, but that would be a waste of time. The BYU game last year was one of the few poor halves he had at OU and a lot of it had to do with having 4 new starting lineman in front of him. You are trying to pierce his armor with 1.5 games of football, but discount him based on line play that was bad at Kansas, yet at Oklahoma. I would only question his escapability and his physique at the time, not his ability or anything else. His 2008 year was one of the best years in college football history, his 2009 year was over after one half of football. So you can choose to judge him on his combine (which was by all accounts, off the charts good), his entire 2008 regular season, or by a fair game vs Florida and a meh first half vs BYU where he was running for his life.Code:C/ATT YDS AVG TD INTS. Bradford 28/39 387 9.9 5 2
benson_will_lead_the_way
Footballguy
Yet again I agree with most of your statement. The college injuries scare me about Bradford, just as much as they scare me about Jahvid Best.
