How to deal with a hoarding employee (1 Viewer)

[Nick Vermeil]

I work at a small luxury fashion firm that has about 30 employees.  Our most important sales peson is a lovely woman in her early 60s who is gifted with clients and one of the most generous humans I've ever met.  She is also a hoarder.  She's not keeping gross stuff like food or garbage but her desk and storage areas are overflowing with documents, product, books, boxes, trays, etc. etc.  I've had many converations with her about it over the years but it has continued to escalate.  She refueses to send items to storage becuase she feels like she needs access to the files from time to time to prove chain of custody of merchandise and crap like that.  She is currently sitting on several dozen documents. SITTING on them.  Her digital workspace is equally a mess with outdated jobs and other forms still active in our inventory system.  

Over the past year, her mess migrated to a vacant desk.  I just hired someone and tried to use that as an excuse for her to clean.  She did clean up the overflow space but just piled the junk on her own desk.  It's ridiculous.  

It's easy enough to suggest threatening her job, boxing up her stuff for her and just cleaning her desk when she is away.  But we would fold without her and the reality is this is not a difference of opinion on process; it's a psychological problem.  And I'm not really sure what to do or how to move forward.  This has been going on so long I thought I had already asked the FFA for advice, but it doesn't appear that I didn't.  

Thoughts, ideas and schtick appreaciated.  

 

[stbugs]

I work at a small luxury fashion firm that has about 30 employees.  Our most important sales peson is a lovely woman in her early 60s who is gifted with clients and one of the most generous humans I've ever met.  She is also a hoarder.  She's not keeping gross stuff like food or garbage but her desk and storage areas are overflowing with documents, product, books, boxes, trays, etc. etc.  I've had many converations with her about it over the years but it has continued to escalate.  She refueses to send items to storage becuase she feels like she needs access to the files from time to time to prove chain of custody of merchandise and crap like that.  She is currently sitting on several dozen documents. SITTING on them.  Her digital workspace is equally a mess with outdated jobs and other forms still active in our inventory system.  

Over the past year, her mess migrated to a vacant desk.  I just hired someone and tried to use that as an excuse for her to clean.  She did clean up the overflow space but just piled the junk on her own desk.  It's ridiculous.  

It's easy enough to suggest threatening her job, boxing up her stuff for her and just cleaning her desk when she is away.  But we would fold without her and the reality is this is not a difference of opinion on process; it's a psychological problem.  And I'm not really sure what to do or how to move forward.  This has been going on so long I thought I had already asked the FFA for advice, but it doesn't appear that I did.  

Thoughts, ideas and schtick appreaciated.  

How about a simple filing cabinet? It sounds like she wants the stuff close to her (not in storage) and probably doesn’t really use it. Get storage that can hold what she has at her desk and put it in there.

 

[Nick Vermeil]

How about a simple filing cabinet? It sounds like she wants the stuff close to her (not in storage) and probably doesn’t really use it. Get storage that can hold what she has at her desk and put it in there.

She has them and they are full.  I've offered to help her organize them and send what is not needed to offsite storage with no success.  

 

[Binky The Doormat]

Thoughts, ideas and schtick appreaciated.  

I'm thinking the lay a little "5 Easy Pieces" Jack Nicholson on her ...a nice desk clear and then tell her whatever she can hold between her knees she can keep.   

 

[Osaurus]

Hide it all and ses how she reacts. She might shut down and call it quits. 

 

[AAABatteries]

I work at a small luxury fashion firm that has about 30 employees.  Our most important sales peson is a lovely woman in her early 60s who is gifted with clients and one of the most generous humans I've ever met.  She is also a hoarder.  She's not keeping gross stuff like food or garbage but her desk and storage areas are overflowing with documents, product, books, boxes, trays, etc. etc.  I've had many converations with her about it over the years but it has continued to escalate.  She refueses to send items to storage becuase she feels like she needs access to the files from time to time to prove chain of custody of merchandise and crap like that.  She is currently sitting on several dozen documents. SITTING on them.  Her digital workspace is equally a mess with outdated jobs and other forms still active in our inventory system.  

Over the past year, her mess migrated to a vacant desk.  I just hired someone and tried to use that as an excuse for her to clean.  She did clean up the overflow space but just piled the junk on her own desk.  It's ridiculous.  

It's easy enough to suggest threatening her job, boxing up her stuff for her and just cleaning her desk when she is away.  But we would fold without her and the reality is this is not a difference of opinion on process; it's a psychological problem.  And I'm not really sure what to do or how to move forward.  This has been going on so long I thought I had already asked the FFA for advice, but it doesn't appear that I did.  

Thoughts, ideas and schtick appreaciated.  

Sounds like you need her more than she needs you - if it matters that much to you I’d have another run at it and explain your reasoning but is it worth pissing her off if you feel she’s that vital?

 

[Fat Nick]

So I don't mean this to be nasty - It's a genuine suggestion here.  It doesn't sound like what she's doing is impacting anyone specifically.  Give her a defined space and let her use it however she wants.  As long as she's your top sales person and you can't live without her and she's tolerated by others (albeit maybe they think it's strange), I'd just live with it.  

I am known for keeping a messy desk at work (and pranks - pranks too...).  I'm not a hoarder, but I don't have much time to clean stuff up.  I pile things.  i know what is in the piles.  It's my system.  If i file it, I might as well throw it away.  

 

[nirad3]

Sounds like you need her more than she needs you - if it matters that much to you I’d have another run at it and explain your reasoning but is it worth pissing her off if you feel she’s that vital?

This, and if you think she's worth spending some extra dough on, hire a professional organizer who deals with hoarders and have her come in to consult your employee on how to manage the mess.

 

[Nick Vermeil]

This, and if you think she's worth spending some extra dough on, hire a professional organizer who deals with hoarders and have her come in to consult your employee on how to manage the mess.

I like this.  Thanks.  

 

[Zegras11]

sleep with her husband

 

[Nick Vermeil]

So I don't mean this to be nasty - It's a genuine suggestion here.  It doesn't sound like what she's doing is impacting anyone specifically.  Give her a defined space and let her use it however she wants.  As long as she's your top sales person and you can't live without her and she's tolerated by others (albeit maybe they think it's strange), I'd just live with it.  

I am known for keeping a messy desk at work (and pranks - pranks too...).  I'm not a hoarder, but I don't have much time to clean stuff up.  I pile things.  i know what is in the piles.  It's my system.  If i file it, I might as well throw it away.  

It does impact though.  She shares space with others, she misplaces product  and has hundred of thousands of dollars of ghost projects in the system. Her disorganization has a direct impact on the bottom line and is enough to reduce the bonus pool.  If I had a dedicated space I'd let her have it though I fear what what become of it.  

 

[Nick Vermeil]

sleep with her husband

He's actually awesome, worked with us part time during the pandemic.   I asked him for his advice once.  He said "I have to deal with it at home, this is your problem."

 

[eoMMan]

Give her a bigger office (with more storage) and a raise.

 

[eoMMan]

Have the cleaning staff “mistakenly” throw away documents. Oops.

 

[eoMMan]

Buy her one of those homework eating dogs. 

 

[eoMMan]

Poop on her desk under the papers.

 

[Jayrod]

It is never a good thing for an organization to be beholden to a single employee.  Granted, superstars are generally hard to replace but most organizations find it easier than they feared it would be.

In all honesty, I'd start this process sooner rather than later so that you can be firm with her if need be.  But if the place would be in bad shape without her that is a problem.  I'd develop a backup system whereby you could feasibly move forward without her and then begin to force the issue.

I worked for a company that had one of these "irreplaceable" women once. She was the primary reason they refused to upgrade the company's primary software because they were afraid she would quit if they asked her to learn a new system.  The entire company was held hostage to the idea that this lady would quit if they tried to upgrade.  To the point the software was not even going to be supported by the company that made it anymore.  I left before push came to shove, so not sure how it got resolved.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

Sorry about that but my relatives have to work somewhere.

 

[Mrs. Rannous]

I work at a small luxury fashion firm that has about 30 employees.  Our most important sales peson is a lovely woman in her early 60s who is gifted with clients and one of the most generous humans I've ever met.  She is also a hoarder.  She's not keeping gross stuff like food or garbage but her desk and storage areas are overflowing with documents, product, books, boxes, trays, etc. etc.  I've had many converations with her about it over the years but it has continued to escalate.  She refueses to send items to storage becuase she feels like she needs access to the files from time to time to prove chain of custody of merchandise and crap like that.  She is currently sitting on several dozen documents. SITTING on them.  Her digital workspace is equally a mess with outdated jobs and other forms still active in our inventory system.  

Over the past year, her mess migrated to a vacant desk.  I just hired someone and tried to use that as an excuse for her to clean.  She did clean up the overflow space but just piled the junk on her own desk.  It's ridiculous.  

It's easy enough to suggest threatening her job, boxing up her stuff for her and just cleaning her desk when she is away.  But we would fold without her and the reality is this is not a difference of opinion on process; it's a psychological problem.  And I'm not really sure what to do or how to move forward.  This has been going on so long I thought I had already asked the FFA for advice, but it doesn't appear that I didn't.  

Thoughts, ideas and schtick appreaciated.  

What are you planning to do when she retires?  You really need to get her some help.  Otherwise, you won't be able to find anything when the time comes.

Also, fire hazard.

 

[AAABatteries]

What are you planning to do when she retires?  You really need to get her some help.  Otherwise, you won't be able to find anything when the time comes.

Also, fire hazard.

Oh, I like this angle.  Hire a fake fire Marshall to come in.

 

[Gally]

Oh, I like this angle.  Hire a fake fire Marshall to come in.

Fire Marshall Bill

 

[Nick Vermeil]

Oh, I like this angle.  Hire a fake fire Marshall to come in.

We've batted that idea around before as well as our insurance inspector. Might have short term benefit at least.

 

[-fish-]

Legal warning:   Hoarding is now classified as a disability.   You have to treat this like any other disability and you have to provide reasonable accommodations or you can be looking at an ADA action.   Tread lightly.

 

[FatMax]

Hire her a buxom, 19 year old assistant, whose sole job is to help keep her organized.  Sounds like that is a position that would pay for itself over time.

 

[eoMMan]

Hire her a buxom, 19 year old assistant, whose sole job is to help keep her organized.  Sounds like that is a position that would pay for itself over time.

I’ve seen movies with this premise.

 

[nirad3]

Poop on her desk under the papers.

AKA "lower decker"

Legal warning:   Hoarding is now classified as a disability.   You have to treat this like any other disability and you have to provide reasonable accommodations or you can be looking at an ADA action.   Tread lightly.

Exactly, which prompted my response to have a professional organizer who has experience in hoarders come in.  At least you could say you tried to alleviate the concern.

 

[Nick Vermeil]

Hire her a buxom, 19 year old assistant, whose sole job is to help keep her organized.  Sounds like that is a position that would pay for itself over time.

We have hired multiple Sales Assistants over the years and she keeps them at arms length.  

 

[GreenNGold]

Is her hoarding causing any actual work problems (such as files going missing), or do you just not like it?  If it is more the latter, I'd try to just let it go as long as it isn't impacting anything else and let her keep doing things her way, especially as she is one of the top employees. 

 

[The General]

Put her in charge of the Catalina Wine Mixer.

 

[belljr]

Hide her red stapler?

 

[-OZ-]

Put her in the basement, forget to tell her she’s fired and somehow keep paying her. 
 

really, this is a psychological condition. If she’s performing, doing her duties well, accommodate her. Ask her what she needs in order to organize things better. You absolutely have a right to maintain s a cleanliness standard which you should enforce. But work with her here. 
(Not legal advice, but I’m a labor attorney)

 

[-OZ-]

Legal warning:   Hoarding is now classified as a disability.   You have to treat this like any other disability and you have to provide reasonable accommodations or you can be looking at an ADA action.   Tread lightly.

 

[jrt103]

double the size of her office until its full, then double it again.

repeat this process until she retires and the company folds

 

[NorvilleBarnes]

He said "I have to deal with it at home, this is your problem."

OK so you realize you're not "fixing" her right?

 

[GroveDiesel]

It is never a good thing for an organization to be beholden to a single employee.  Granted, superstars are generally hard to replace but most organizations find it easier than they feared it would be.

In all honesty, I'd start this process sooner rather than later so that you can be firm with her if need be.  But if the place would be in bad shape without her that is a problem.  I'd develop a backup system whereby you could feasibly move forward without her and then begin to force the issue.

I worked for a company that had one of these "irreplaceable" women once. She was the primary reason they refused to upgrade the company's primary software because they were afraid she would quit if they asked her to learn a new system.  The entire company was held hostage to the idea that this lady would quit if they tried to upgrade.  To the point the software was not even going to be supported by the company that made it anymore.  I left before push came to shove, so not sure how it got resolved.

Had a co-worker at a very small company (4 employees) that was not super computer literate. The primary software they used didn’t come out with a Windows version until about 2005. He absolutely refused to learn it and continued to use the DOS version until setting up virtual DOS windows etc became so difficult for him that he was essentially forced to learn the Windows version. The company wasn’t even officially supporting the DOS version anymore (why they still had an official DOS version in 2008 is beyond me).

 

[Nick Vermeil]

OK so you realize you're not "fixing" her right?

Clearly. I admitted in the first post this is a psychological thing. And I don’t want her to go. But something has to change.  It’s a tricky thing and I’m saddled with finding a solution. 

 

[AAABatteries]

Clearly. I admitted in the first post this is a psychological thing. And I don’t want her to go. But something has to change.  It’s a tricky thing and I’m saddled with finding a solution. 

Are you the owner?

To me, it's fairly simple - you say she's indispensable.  Let's assume for a moment that is true.  Is her behavior so bad that you would risk the company for her?  If not, then just let it go.  If so, then as somebody else said - find a replacement and then give her an ultimatum.

 

[Gr00vus]

Can you at least digitize the documents and clear those papers out? Get an intern to help with that if she won't do it herself?

 

[Nick Vermeil]

Are you the owner?

To me, it's fairly simple - you say she's indispensable.  Let's assume for a moment that is true.  Is her behavior so bad that you would risk the company for her?  If not, then just let it go.  If so, then as somebody else said - find a replacement and then give her an ultimatum.

No not the owner but I do have to deal with it. What do I say to her coworkers who are affected by it and have to work among the mess all the time?  
 

I think I’ll focus on the digital problems first because they have financial implications. Then I’ll work on the desk by trying to find filing solutions. Again.  
 

 

[Nick Vermeil]

Can you at least digitize the documents and clear those papers out? Get an intern to help with that if she won't do it herself?

She has accordion files full of paperwork that date back to 2009. I tried to send them to storage and she said the company was sabotaging her. I realize she sounds like a monster but I actually really like her. It’s a tough situation. 

 

[Harry Frogfish]

I work at a small luxury fashion firm that has about 30 employees.  Our most important sales person is a lovely woman in her early 60s who is gifted with clients and one of the most generous humans I've ever met.

But we would fold without her and the reality is this is not a difference of opinion on process; it's a psychological problem.

What makes her so gifted that you would actually fold without her?  That's impressive, let's hear it.  Thanks.

 

[Judge Smails]

Legal warning:   Hoarding is now classified as a disability.   You have to treat this like any other disability and you have to provide reasonable accommodations or you can be looking at an ADA action.   Tread lightly.

Is that true or schtick?

 

[Dezbelief]

Is that true or schtick?

Hoarding was added to the DSM.

 

[GreenNGold]

Is that true or schtick?

schtick as far this scenario in the workplace goes.  Hoarding is now considered a disability, but that is mostly referring to hoarders in their own homes and renters who hoard have some protections under housing law. 

There is nothing protecting someone from being forced to clean up their desk at work.  All of the files, papers, etc... are company property that the company owns and can rearrange as they see fit. 

 

[-fish-]

schtick as far this scenario in the workplace goes.  Hoarding is now considered a disability, but that is referring to hoarders in their own homes and renters who hoard have some protections under housing law.  There is nothing protecting someone from being forced to clean up their desk at work. 

No.   Hoarding is a disability per the DSM, which means it falls under the Americans with Disabilities Act.   You couldn't be more wrong.

 

[GreenNGold]

No.   Hoarding is a disability per the DSM, which means it falls under the Americans with Disabilities Act.   You couldn't be more wrong.

No.  The employer can completely pack up all the papers in her desk and move them wherever they want.  You couldn't be more wrong.  The employee is not being fired over this, and the employee does not need to be "accommodated" by being allowed to hoard at work.  The employer has every right to clean up her desk and dictate what she can and cannot keep at her desk if they so want. 

 

[-fish-]

No.  The employer can completely pack up all the papers in her desk and move them wherever they want.  You couldn't be more wrong.  The employee is not being fired over this, and the employee does not need to be "accommodated" by being allowed to hoard at work.  The employer has every right to clean up her desk (or move her to a new desk) if they so want. 

Wish him luck with his ADA suit.  Those aren't expensive at all.

 

[-fish-]

Interested to know how many hoarding cases you've handled.   I'm at about 15.

 

[GreenNGold]

Interested to know how many hoarding cases you've handled.   I'm at about 15.

Have any cases you can site?  I can't even find a google search that indicates an employee would have any rights here.   

 

[-fish-]

Have any cases you can site?  I can't even find a google search that indicates an employee would have any rights here.   

It's ADA.   It's the same as any other DSM-5 disability.   The only published workplace case I'm aware of the plaintiff lost, but only because he couldn't meet his burden of proof to establish the nexus between the disability and the requested accommodation (he ran a mailroom and wanted an assistant to help him keep it organized).  There was no question that if he had met his burden of proof he would have been entitled to an accommodation.  

Most hoarding cases at this point deal with the Fair Housing Act Amendment of 1988, but it makes sense that it would occur more in housing than in the workplace.   Same solution, though.   Get them mental health support, set reasonable and incremental goals, etc.